Obsessing about the wedding and money.

[maxsterling]

An hour ago, she didn't even want me to go into the bedroom to get a change of clothes.  And just now, she came out to at least offer me pillows to sleep on the couch, and brought me the guinea pig to hold of a bit.

Bizarre. 

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[sweetheart]

It's not bizarre it the contrariness that is BPD.

Remember max there is no need to explain your actions or your use of boundaries. This will just keep the craziness going. This is JADE.

Be very careful that you are not get into a triangulation set-up involving her parents.

What's happening with the P ?

[maxsterling]

I think P appointment is still not for another month.  Not sure if she found another T.  This morning is MC.  I am dreading it, knowing that it will likely be an hour of listening to more abuse.  Its a setup here where I can't win.  W will want me to Explain (JADE), and T will also want explanation.  Wife's big rage now is that I called the police.  She thinks it was to scare or control her.  I did it for her safety because the "safety plan" we discussed previously was not working.  She would not talk to a friend, her AA sponsor, or the crisis line, and she would not stop and take a breath or a break.  I will not put myself in the path of violence, and at that point the only option (as I know) for me was to call the police to check on her safety.  Sure, she did not verbally threaten her own life that particular night, but at lest three times in the previous week she had told me she felt suicidal or wanted to die.  I'm not sure how MC can help us get past this impasse. 

I'm starting to wonder if part of the problem here is the xanax.  Calms her down, but the times when it is wearing off are brutal. 

[formflier]

 

Please express yourself to MC that you don't want to be abused in session... .

There is big difference in "abuse" and "difficult"

[maxsterling]

This morning was more slamming doors and yelling.  She was mad because I was in the shower and she needed to get ready to leave.  Blamed me for not being able to change out of her pajamas... .

Then I told her that I think it would be best if we drove separate cars to MC.   Two reasons for this:

1)  Don't want to be in the car with her screaming.  I can almost guarantee that would happen.

2) I have a P appointment of my own an hour or two later.  It would be easier for me to just go from one straight to the other.

Of course, I did not tell her reason #1.  Reason #2 is legitimate on it's own, though.  And she is upset about this.

[formflier]

I hope you have a productive MC today...

Hang in there.

[Grey Kitty]

Then I told her that I think it would be best if we drove separate cars to MC.   Two reasons for this:

1)  Don't want to be in the car with her screaming.  I can almost guarantee that would happen.

You don't need to tell her why. You just need to tell her you aren't getting into her car or letting her get into yours.

If you do want to... .keep it an "I" statement.

"I don't feel comfortable/safe driving with you today."

That is your feeling, and she can't argue with it.

(She can and will scream at you that she won't be screaming at you in the car 'tho!)

[maxsterling]

Well, that mostly was not fun or hopeful in any way.  Basically me listening to W insult, abuse, talk about how it's all over, no hope, nothing we can do, talk over me, not let me talk, yet still want to go thru with wedding for show only.  Grr.  I did my best to listen and try to understand what she is feeling.  Wish she was capable of doing the same for me.  T did try to step in and rescue me a bit at times, but the hour plus was mostly W blowing off steam, accusing me of being controlling, sick, mentally ill, autistic  , etc.

No real way of my W understanding at this point that my actions are out of love, concern, and self-preservation rather than an attempt to control or manipulate. 

Not sure where to go from here.  Another MC session is scheduled for next Monday night. 

[formflier]

Well, that mostly was not fun or hopeful in any way.  Basically me listening to W insult, abuse, talk about how it's all over, no hope, nothing we can do, talk over me, not let me talk, yet still want to go thru with wedding for show only.  Grr.  I did my best to listen and try to understand what she is feeling.  Wish she was capable of doing the same for me.  T did try to step in and rescue me a bit at times, but the hour plus was mostly W blowing off steam, accusing me of being controlling, sick, mentally ill, autistic  , etc.

No real way of my W understanding at this point that my actions are out of love, concern, and self-preservation rather than an attempt to control or manipulate. 

Not sure where to go from here.  Another MC session is scheduled for next Monday night. 

Hmm... .describe the T trying to rescue you? 

Max,

Her abusive behavior has taken a heavy toll on you.  I think more boundaries need to go into MC about you not "taking it". 

If she is calm when saying she thinks you are autistic... .that is one thing... .but I am hearing that she was "launching into you... "

Possibly discuss with MC T... .that if she gets wound up at you... .that you will step out of the room to let her compose herself. 

Not sure... .I've never left an MC room.  I've had my wife stomp out several times.

[maric]

Hello Max,

I'm sorry for all you have been through. I'm amazed by your patience and love. Having said that, if she wants so much to be over, why don't you let her go? At least for a try. And some piece of mind. Do you think it would create greater problems? In this case, what are you afraid of?

Sometimes after a while of taking abuse, we just become numb to it and start to feel like it's normal. And it's not. Do you have a close friend to talk to so he/she can give you some perspective about things? Please put someone else in your shoes. If your sister/brother were in a situation like this, what would you do to help them?

Please take care of yourself. Please validate YOUR feelings, for a change.

   

[maxsterling]

Hmm... .describe the T trying to rescue you? 

After a few minutes of basically rant from her, T would stop her and say things like, "I don't hear a question in there... ." or "obviously, Max must have a different perspective... ."  Basically, She tired to cut the rant off when it started to go way off the tracks.  I could tell that T felt overwhelmed, though. 

[maxsterling]

Hello Max,

I'm sorry for all you have been through. I'm amazed by your patience and love. Having said that, if she wants so much to be over, why don't you let her go? At least for a try. And some piece of mind. Do you think it would create greater problems? In this case, what are you afraid of?

Good thoughts.  I guess at times I feel there.  But right now I feel that she is mostly just angry and threatening, because if she really wanted out, she would have taken different actions the past few days.  She wouldn't have agreed to go to MC today.  She would have ripped up the marriage certificate like she threatened to.  And I really think she would have called off the wedding if she truly felt there was no chance her.

I feel like "letting her go" is like "calling her bluff".  I'm not 100% ready to give up, yet.

[Grey Kitty]

If the MC T is overwhelmed by her ranting... .you aren't getting very effective stuff in MC, I don't think.

[maxsterling]

Well, I don't know for certain that MC was overwhelmed, but a few times during the rants, I looked over at her and she appeared to sigh and just blink her eyes.  She just looked frustrated.  At one point toward the end she made some kind of comment about not knowing what she could do for us at this point until the resentment subsided and we decided what we wanted to do.

[maxsterling]

Well, after work she wanted to get in one more rant - about how I have issues, need to get an Alanon sponsor and work the 12 steps, how she is going to talk to a mental illness advocate lawyer thru NAMI to protect herself from the damage I caused bu calling the police.  ?  Not sure where she got that idea or what she expects the lawyer to do, but I predict that when she does talk to the lawyer, the answers won't be what she expects.  She also said I should look at the NAMI website and consider going to their family support group meetings so that I can better learn how to deal with her.  I guess she doesn't know I have already read through their website, and that is where it tells me to call 911.  I guess her definition of "immediate danger" is much different than mine.  To me, someone who has talked about suicide or hurting herself within the past few days and is now acting violently is in "immediate danger".  To her, it's just blowing off steam.

After that little rant, she wanted to go out for dinner and then yogurt.  We talked some about finances and replacing the deceased pet... .

All in all the mood is calmer now.

[Grey Kitty]

Max, were you in the mood to be the target of one more rant?

[maxsterling]

Max, were you in the mood to be the target of one more rant?

HA!  Of course not.  But after the rants of the past few days, this felt like practically nothing.  And at this point it just so played out... .

[Grey Kitty]

Max, were you in the mood to be the target of one more rant?

HA!  Of course not.  But after the rants of the past few days, this felt like practically nothing.  And at this point it just so played out... .

Err... .time to work on excusing yourself from them more promptly.

Seriously... .you can enforce a boundary not to listen to that sort of thing, and it will be good for both you and for her.

"It could be worse" is a poor reason to put up with abusive behavior.

[waverider]

Hi Max,

To balance out all this constant cycling of dysregulation are there any areas you can think of where you have made good progress and maybe stabilized in the last few weeks?

You have a big turning point coming , which no doubt ups the stress and piles on the neg column, has much been added to the positive column? What progress?

Giving unbalanced attention to the negatives can feed them. It is far too easy to get bogged down in individual issues and loose sight of the bigger one. Which is ~Where were you?

~Where are you now? 

~where are you going from here?

~What is the unfolding pattern and where does it extrapolate to?

The future is an evolution from past through present. What does it look like it will be at best guess from you?

[formflier]

Max,

Trying to sort out the suggestions, advice and points of view that several have offered... .look at what you have said... .and I think I see a new boundary being pretty close.

What does a boundary of "I will not be present for any rant... ."  look like?


How have the rants affected the emotional health of the r/s?

Maybe it is a soft boundary to be more teachable.  You will give one or two gentle reminders... .before exiting.  Maybe this is so dramatic you wait and coordinate with P... .so he is bad guy saying don't be present.  Not sure.

But the overwhelming vibe that I am picking up from you... .and from others analysis of you... .is that you are done with the abusive behavior.

So... .be done with it.  Let the chips fall...

Thoughts?

[maxsterling]

What does a boundary of "I will not be present for any rant... ."  look like?

But the overwhelming vibe that I am picking up from you... .and from others analysis of you... .is that you are done with the abusive behavior.

Yes, sounds reasonable, but not really feasible ATM.  Without an IC and without a P, I don't think she is capable of stopping the rants at the present time.  And where does the line get drawn?  Rants about me or my family are certainly bad, rants about others are less so.  I've had to accept that her ranting and being negative from time to time is part of her personality.  If I can't accept that, then I think it is up to me to just end it rather than try and enforce a boundary here.  If this was something that was happening on a monthly basis, I could deal with it.  Every day or every other day? Exhausting. 

Yes, I am done with the abusive behavior.  And that is not just a decision, it's a necessity.  At this point, even if I get painted white again, I'm not sure how much baggage I will still be carrying and for how long.    But once again, I really don't expect the abusive behavior to ever completely stop, and probably won't change much until she gets an IC and a P.  And after that, I still see issues where our definitions of "abuse" will be different.  Right now, she claims I am being "abusive" for walking away and not listening to her when she starts screaming, claiming it is some kind of silent treatment and control mechanism.  What I am HOPING is for her to get in to an IC where she can work out some of these issues and understand things like personal boundaries.  Right now in her mind, she is still mostly looking at me as if I am the one with all the problems.  She admits she screams, yells, curses, and calls names, but it's still more my problem for not letting her rant and calming her down than it is her responsibility for stopping that behavior. 

[Grey Kitty]

Dude.

Boundary Enforcement.

It is about YOU, not about HER.

It doesn't matter if SHE is done ranting or not.

Boundary enforcement here is that you choose not to be present for the rant, to protect yourself.

She is free to rant at the wall. She is free to find somebody else who will listen, call them up, and rant at them (about you, or whatever!)



You've been here quite a while; I know you've seen and used the tools here a lot. Do you need help implementing it? I'm just giving you straight talk about the need for it, not details on how to do it.

[sweetheart]

Max GK beat me to it, from your post as I read it there seems to a fundamental misunderstanding around what a boundary is and what purpose it serves.

Waiting until your wife has an IC and a new P before you enforce boundaries around 'abusive rantings' sets up the perfect storm for someone with BPD to accelerate toward further dysregulation. Time to exit stage left and allow time for self soothing.

What purpose would ongoing exposure to such rants serve in the current emotional dynamic between you and your wife?

[formflier]

 Right now in her mind, she is still mostly looking at me as if I am the one with all the problems.  She admits she screams, yells, curses, and calls names, but it's still more my problem for not letting her rant and calming her down than it is her responsibility for stopping that behavior.  

This is a great place for a help mu understand conversation... . Or ask her to provide some writing on this.

Not in an effort to fix it... .but to clarify where she is at.  With her new found self awareness... .she may realize that some of this is abusive or bad.

Max,

You have done great things in this r/s... .born great burdens... .I  really think you need to let those burdens shift.

I'm currently reading the "Boundaries" book by Townsend and Cloud.  They do a great job of explaining that people need to be allowed to "have" their own problems and not be rescued from them.  

Maybe this book would be something you could both read together.  

There are various pathways to the same thing... .that same thing being you have to get out of the line of fire... .\

Max... .seriously... .we all sense the toll this is having on you... .you need to get some strength back!

[Grey Kitty]

She admits she screams, yells, curses, and calls names, but it's still more my problem for not letting her rant and calming her down than it is her responsibility for stopping that behavior. 

My last response was making it all about you. If you want to make it about her, it points you in the same direction.

If you take responsibility for calming her down and soothing her (by being a target of her ranting), YOU are enabling her to continue this behavior, PREVENTING her from taking her responsibility for finding a healthier way of self-soothing her own stress and hurts.

Enforcing a boundary of not being that sort of emotional punching bag will help both of you in the end.

[maxsterling]

I appreciate all of your concerns.

After reading GK's last response, I see that I was unclear that final sentence of my post was about the way she thinks, not what I think-

SHE thinks it is my role to sit and listen to her rants and help her calm down.  I certainly don't think that way. 

My point was that at the rate things are going right now, I don't think it is feasible to remove myself from the path of every rant unless we completely split up and she moves out.  They are just too frequent ATM (her whole day is a rant), SHE is not going to change and is not capable at the moment, and I am not completely ready to just end it.  That means, to me, the reality is enforcing boundaries against *any* ranting would be very difficult.  Right now I think it better to just focus on the more severe stuff.

I see my two options as this right now:

1) If I want or need to get myself out of the path of all ranting and negative energy as formflier suggests, I should move to the undecided or leaving boards because I think it is an almost certainty that it will bring about the complete end to the r/s.

2) Draw a boundary (for now) somewhere between the general "complain about the day" rants and the "I hate you you are scum" rants, find a way to make that clear for me (and for her) and enforce that and see if that helps me regain some head space.  Work on the really bad stuff for now, and worry about smaller stuff later.   It's like if a P was trying to help a drug addict - first get them to quit using drugs (the immediate danger), then work on the other behaviors. 

[GaGrl]

So, what are the differences to YOU, between her ranting about "stuff in her day" (other directed) vs ranting about and toward you (you directed)? Is the first less stressful? Does she ramp up from the first type to the second?

[formflier]

  almost certainty that it will bring about the complete end to the r/s.

Max,

How does this statement relate to FOG?

[formflier]

2) Draw a boundary (for now) somewhere between the general "complain about the day" rants and the "I hate you you are scum" rants, find a way to make that clear for me (and for her) and enforce that and see if that helps me regain some head space.  Work on the really bad stuff for now, and worry about smaller stuff later.   It's like if a P was trying to help a drug addict - first get them to quit using drugs (the immediate danger), then work on the other behaviors. 

Max,

I think you have identified a way forward.  Making a r/s better with a pwBPD is not about the big leaps and bounds... .but the TLCs.  Sometimes big things come along... but those tend to be rare... .IMO.

So... .maybe you need to split this into smaller parts.  Also... .this is similar to what I do with my wife... .if she is blasting someone else... .sometimes I just giggle to myself about some other poor sap getting it... .   

Plus... that's her thing... .I'm not the police for my wife's behavior.  If she wants to blast away at someone else... .it is my choice to stick around or leave.

So... .let's try to refine a boundary statement around her blaming you (in an inappropriate way... .yelling... whatever)  If she is calm but blaming... .try to stick with the convo.

So... .maybe I'll hush there... .please think about real life examples... .and try to put that into one or two sentences that you can say to her... .once... .to express a new boundary. 

Hang in there!

[waverider]

2) Draw a boundary (for now) somewhere between the general "complain about the day" rants and the "I hate you you are scum" rants, find a way to make that clear for me (and for her) and enforce that and see if that helps me regain some head space.  Work on the really bad stuff for now, and worry about smaller stuff later.   It's like if a P was trying to help a drug addict - first get them to quit using drugs (the immediate danger), then work on the other behaviors. 

This is a basic bottom line and a good place for a boundary. rants about other issues are annoying but really only more so as they are fillers between this one.

Her expecting you to stay and endure these rants is her 'need'. To break pwBPD splitting down is quite simple, you meet their needs you are white, you dont you are black.

Removing yourself from this line of fire will paint you black, inescapable. It wont change until she doesn't "need" to rant at you. She wont change that need as long as supply is being met. So you will have to weather that until she gets used to ranting at you not being an option.

This may mean she switches and projects the emotions by ranting about third parties instead of you so that you stay there. You will at least have set a precedent over ranting boundaries.

Rants are underlying emotion driven not as issue driven as they sound. Hence they are not always about you, she just makes them issues about you as you are there and available as a release valve.

Sometimes our boundaries fail because we set the bar unattainably high. She has bottled up emotions, they have to be let out somehow, hence having no rants at all as a boundary is blocking all venting, which is bound to lead to a bigger explosion. Hence stick to taking the target off your back.

It would probably take extensive therapy to learn better coping skills to stress than just ranting.