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Author Topic: Lightbulb moment: they never loved us  (Read 5048 times)
drummerboy
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« on: February 09, 2015, 12:15:50 AM »

Today is my exes birthday, to be honest I wasn't looking forward to it because of the feelings I thought it might dredge up. This day one year ago we spent a superb day together but I now realise that she was on her way out the door, she stayed at my place but the next morning she gathered up most of her things (we didn't live together)

Anyway, today I had a lightbulb moment. She never loved me! A person that loves you is not concerned about the age difference, a person that loves you doesn't not want to be around your kids, a person that loves you doesn't care that you live 50 miles apart, a person that loves you doesn't pack up and go home at the first hurdle. A person that loves you believes in you and believes in the r/s and works through stuff. Sure she continually said she loved me, but she didn't, not at all. On our very last day together she said "I love you but I'm not in love with you" this is key! She loved the idea of falling in love, she loved the dreamy infatuation stage but real love, she didn't have a clue what that is.

Somehow knowing that she never loved me is like a huge weight lifted from my shoulders. For a person that truly did love you to simply disappear would be inexplicable, but it's not so hard to understand once you realise that they never loved you. Sure she probably thought she was in love but infatuation is not love. There is a spring in my step today! I hope this helps someone getting over their breakup!
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Matt8888

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« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2015, 12:40:29 AM »

You got that right.  We happened to fill a need in their life when they were afraid to be alone.  They did have feelings for us in the early stage of the relationship, but I wouldn't call it love.

How can you love someone and then never speak to them again.  I just don't get it. 

These are very damaged people.  They don't think like you or I.
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hoaianhcameron

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« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2015, 01:25:09 AM »

Well, personally, i think they do love us! Look at all the good twinkling memories you had together, how could it be so endearing if it were not love?

However, i also believe our (NonBPD) definition of love and theirs are different. Like what we read about BPD, emotion to them is like a fact but as you know, emotion is never stable, even for non BPD. Jumping in and out are just their way of coping with emotion ups & down for surviva. Their past experience doesn't let them learn how to mature in relationship but it doesn't mean they are not capable of loving.

That's what i thought!
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going places
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« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2015, 04:58:55 AM »

Based upon the Biblical definition of Love:

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails.


I would agree.

My ex and whatever PD he has: NEVER 'loved' me.

Which is fine. That's not my problem!
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parisian
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« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2015, 05:22:38 AM »

It's not love in the way we know or expect.

We are just a warm body and some temporary narcisstic supply to curb their unfillable desire for attachment. It could be anyone which is why replacements are so common. They can't bear to be by themselves, and then can't handle the closeness of a relationship.

Whilst I'm sure there are some things they really liked about us, their actions don't equal their words. Their actions don't equate to love, care or kindness, regardless of how much they say it. It is just a learned script because that's what people say in relationships right?

As soon as there is commitment, then the horrible fear of enmeshment overwhelms them and they despise and reject us.
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drummerboy
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« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2015, 05:33:38 AM »

I cannot agree, happy memories do not denote love. Yes, they probably thought they loved but it wasn't what I would call love, it was a need. I would say it is impossible to love when you are self absorbed. My favourite definition of love is from Eric Fromm's famous book "The Art of Loving" in which he says: "Love is the active concern for the life and the growth of that which we love" pwBPD weren't concerned about us beyond what we could give to them. Their whole life is about them, me, me, me! Love is about giving, not taking. The only thing my ex gave was her body because that's probably all she had to give, she certainly didn't give me any emotional support like in a normal relationship. All she talked about was herself, her issues, her crisis. That's not love in my opinion. As I said in the first post, love to them is the giddy feeling you get in the infatuation stage when you don't even know the person.

Well, personally, i think they do love us! Look at all the good twinkling memories you had together, how could it be so endearing if it were not love?

However, i also believe our (NonBPD) definition of love and theirs are different. Like what we read about BPD, emotion to them is like a fact but as you know, emotion is never stable, even for non BPD. Jumping in and out are just their way of coping with emotion ups & down for surviva. Their past experience doesn't let them learn how to mature in relationship but it doesn't mean they are not capable of loving.

That's what i thought!

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BorisAcusio
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« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2015, 05:46:35 AM »

It's clearly outlined in the clinical literature, that for pwBPD, love equates to need. It takes to time accept it.  

The equally profound realization comes when you examine your own feelings. Did we really love them as a person, or rather the fantasy we projected onto them?

And we all love being idealized.  That pedestal was a big ego boost for me.  I think that's one of the reasons we're so devastated and trying to figure out what went wrong.  We want that phase back because it was great for us.  I loved being on that pedestal.  Maybe we're chasing them for selfish reasons.  We want to "figure them out and fix them" so they'll go back to meeting our ego needs.  It's devastating to realize that we were nothing special like we thought we were.  And our ego booster isn't coming back.

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« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2015, 05:49:17 AM »

if trust has anything to do with love then i would say no
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drummerboy
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« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2015, 06:02:59 AM »

This is really profound and where our healing begins. I think you are correct, I loved what I thought/hoped it would be with this person who adored me. Massive ego boost yes but my deepest fear is that I fell in love with the ego boost and fell in love with the unrestrained physical intimacy. I'm not proud to admit this, I actually feel shame but these are very important points to consider during the realisation process. I invented this person that I thought was the person I'd waited my whole life for. She was an illusion as was my projection.

The equally profound realization comes when you examine your own feelings. Did we really love them as a person, or rather the fantasy we projected onto them

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mallard3868

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« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2015, 10:01:34 PM »

This is really profound and where our healing begins. I think you are correct, I loved what I thought/hoped it would be with this person who adored me. Massive ego boost yes but my deepest fear is that I fell in love with the ego boost and fell in love with the unrestrained physical intimacy. I'm not proud to admit this, I actually feel shame but these are very important points to consider during the realisation process. I invented this person that I thought was the person I'd waited my whole life for. She was an illusion as was my projection.

The equally profound realization comes when you examine your own feelings. Did we really love them as a person, or rather the fantasy we projected onto them

As for me, I think you hit the nail on the head! BUT know knowing what we know, how would (or could) anyone see that coming? As with our BPD's, perception is reality.

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« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2015, 10:26:39 PM »

It's clearly outlined in the clinical literature, that for pwBPD, love equates to need. It takes to time accept it.  

The equally profound realization comes when you examine your own feelings. Did we really love them as a person, or rather the fantasy we projected onto them?

And we all love being idealized.  That pedestal was a big ego boost for me.  I think that's one of the reasons we're so devastated and trying to figure out what went wrong.  We want that phase back because it was great for us.  I loved being on that pedestal.  Maybe we're chasing them for selfish reasons.  We want to "figure them out and fix them" so they'll go back to meeting our ego needs.  It's devastating to realize that we were nothing special like we thought we were.  And our ego booster isn't coming back.


Wow, this is hard to admit but so true in my case. I think you right in explaining why it is so hard to let this go. My ex was so good at giving and taking it away that I really started to need the pedestal again. I wanted to be back on it so bad, and would give up almost anything to have it back. That and the unrestrained physical intimacy as was so accurately mentioned earlier. Sad to say I became addicted to them.
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« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2015, 11:59:40 PM »

I agree with you 100℅. BPD's don't know how to love or what true love is or entails. Their brand of love is always need(s) based. True love in a healthy, mutually caring/giving/exclusive/respectful/etc. relationship is selfless. The entire replacement enterprise confirms the need(s) based system: A Non could no longer fulfill the need(s) of the BPD; therefore, he/she quickly moves on to a new host.

Infatuation, yes, BPD's seem to have completely bought into infatuation as love. That is also a very poor criteria/driver for selecting/attaching to another person. Hence the emotional immaturity at work.
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« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2015, 01:54:48 AM »

I agree with you 100℅. BPD's don't know how to love or what true love is or entails. Their brand of love is always need(s) based. True love in a healthy, mutually caring/giving/exclusive/respectful/etc. relationship is selfless. The entire replacement enterprise confirms the need(s) based system: A Non could no longer fulfill the need(s) of the BPD; therefore, he/she quickly moves on to a new host.

Infatuation, yes, BPD's seem to have completely bought into infatuation as love. That is also a very poor criteria/driver for selecting/attaching to another person. Hence the emotional immaturity at work.

This is what I experienced.
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« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2015, 03:45:33 PM »

Love is forgiveness.  So by that measure does that mean we never loved our exs and are just a bunch of narcisists that used our exs to feel good about ourselves?  It is not so simple. 

Wasn't it that innitial forgiving of the faults of the other that fostered that innitial bond of love in the begining of the relationship?
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drummerboy
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« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2015, 04:31:24 PM »

If you think you loved someone and later find out that the person you thought you loved was a fraud do you still call it love? It means we loved an illusion, an illusion that we created based on her words. That's been the key for me, comparing the actions to the words. And yes, I know in my case I most certainly did use her to feel good about myself, hard truths to accept but they must be faced. In a BPD r/s they are the narcissists/emotional manipulator  and we had varying degrees of codependency, in my case I was seeking a love missing from my childhood thehard fact for me to realise has been that I used her and she used me, the difference between us is that in the end I believe I'm a good person and that she was not a nice person.


Love is forgiveness.  So by that measure does that mean we never loved our exs and are just a bunch of narcisists that used our exs to feel good about ourselves?  It is not so simple.  

Wasn't it that innitial forgiving of the faults of the other that fostered that innitial bond of love in the begining of the relationship?

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« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2015, 04:42:18 PM »

The illusion existed before we met our exs.  Our exs try to be a part of this illusion for us to receive love, not to decieve us or out of cruelty.  The deception is our own.
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hergestridge
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« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2015, 04:58:38 PM »

Love is also about loyalty, commitment and trust. I gave those things to my BPDw, but what I got back was needines and doubt. Basically she was telling me it was her and me forever, but she also painted a grim picture of the future, as if things weren't going to work out, and what was I going to do about it?

Love is about trying to do your best to make your partner happy and make his/her life easy. But she was all about complaints and pushing limits. To put it simply she was just being mean. Just like she was to her parents and her brother.
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« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2015, 05:21:46 PM »

Drummer, I can relate to where you are at and how you are trying to make sense of a crap ton of pain and emotional turmoil.  I had a long internal struggle about if she lived me and all of that but it didn't really help me to understand because love is too large of a concept and it gets too existential.  Reframing and understaning attachment styles and the development of the self helped to clear that up. 

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willieb4

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« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2015, 05:29:19 PM »

I believe they do not love themselves, so are incapable of love.

As for us nons, this Anthony De Mello quote speaks volumes:

"You are never in love with anyone. You're only in love with your prejudiced and hopeful idea of that person."
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Bianca

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« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2015, 06:41:28 PM »

I also think it was infatuation they mistake for love. I never really felt that deep love. I was treated like a Princess and put on a pedestal,  until I was knocked down on my butt by reality. He did a number on me as many of you know, but I am stronger and although he left deep scars,  I also realized that I cannot grieve for what I didn't have,  real love. So I feel peace now and calm. I don't feel jealous of future victims,  because that's what they are and I feel bad knowing someone else might be victimized the same way I have been.  So no, I don't believe I had real love, which has made it easy to walk away and stay away. Thanks to you guys, I am not alone in this traumatic experience. Even if I end up alone, I know I am much better off. :-)
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« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2015, 07:05:28 PM »

I discussed this topic with my T today.

It is indeed love. However, they are absolutely terrible at expressing anything in a mature way, positive or negative. There are several factors that govern this, but it all boils down to "they're mentally ill."  The regular feelings and emotions they experience, get supercharged for lack of a better word, by the disorder.

If it wasn't love, they wouldn't keep coming back. In my T's words: "Hundreds of couples miss each other and reconnect each day. It's not abnormal."

In my particular situation, my ex slept around a notorious amount... .but despite the sheer number of guys/girls, the only one she got attached to was me. Nobody else had any relationship stories about her... .It was all just "I took her home from the bar and she started crying about her dad in bed and then I never talked to her again and went & got tested for an STD."

Whereas myself, I have this whole saga spanning like, five years full of lies, abuse, stalking... .etc... .It's not healthy, but she never did that with anyone else. So back to what my T said, yes, it's love, they're just awful at expressing it.

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apollotech
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« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2015, 07:22:23 PM »

I also think it was infatuation they mistake for love. I never really felt that deep love. I was treated like a Princess and put on a pedestal,  until I was knocked down on my butt by reality. He did a number on me as many of you know, but I am stronger and although he left deep scars,  I also realized that I cannot grieve for what I didn't have,  real love. So I feel peace now and calm. I don't feel jealous of future victims,  because that's what they are and I feel bad knowing someone else might be victimized the same way I have been.  So no, I don't believe I had real love, which has made it easy to walk away and stay away. Thanks to you guys, I am not alone in this traumatic experience. Even if I end up alone, I know I am much better off. :-)

Bianca, like you, infatuation is all that my BPDexgf had for me. And, like you, now realizing that it never was a true relationship based on true love from both parties has made it much easier for me to begin the recovery process. Quite frankly, I feel as if I have been preyed upon. She processed me; it's that simple. Do I blame her or have ill feelings against her, no. She is a person with a mental disorder that she did not ask for. But, I cannot excuse her actions as a happenstance. And it's a system she has developed, which I did not see while in the relationship.
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cosmonaut
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« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2015, 09:35:30 PM »

How does one measure love?  How else but with the heart?  We must rely upon our hearts to tell us, for it is our souls not our brains that know love.  Every single one of us - every human who has ever lived and who will ever live - knows in their heart what love is and yearns for it above all else.  Attempting to intellectualize love will always fail.  Our brains can not understand it and yet every single one of us understands it.

We were loved.  We had to be.  None of us would be here if we were not loved.  It is the loss of that love that brought us to this place.  BPD is tragedy.  It is Paradise Lost.  If your heart tells you that you were loved, then believe it.

I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that my ex loved me.  She loved me so completely, so totally that it consumed her.
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« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2015, 10:07:14 PM »

I guess to me part of love is willing to take a bullet for them there are a few people i would do that for BPD will say they will do it Almost insist that you do it for them but the chances of them taking one for you or anyone ?

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AwakenedOne
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« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2015, 10:15:36 PM »

My xBPDw never did anything at all to save our marriage. Absolutely nothing. Promises = nothing in reality. That's not love.

As I tried to save the marriage she treated me like an animal. That's not love.

I've been feeding and tending to a neighborhood stray cat lately. I thought of my BPDx today when I looked at the cat. This cat loves me now and is happy that it's getting fed and it's basic needs met but if Joe Blo down the street feeds the cat more food the cat will not remember me ever again. That's not love.

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« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2015, 11:14:56 PM »

You got that right.  We happened to fill a need in their life when they were afraid to be alone.  They did have feelings for us in the early stage of the relationship, but I wouldn't call it love.

How can you love someone and then never speak to them again.  I just don't get it. 

These are very damaged people.  They don't think like you or I.

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS x100000
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letmeout
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« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2015, 11:47:32 PM »

Somehow knowing that she never loved me is like a huge weight lifted from my shoulders.

I have to agree with that statement, one of the things that finally pushed me out of the relationship.

He could fake it when it suited him, but he never felt love for me or anything else for that matter. Except for his beer, he loved his beer.  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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raisins3142
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« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2015, 01:22:31 AM »

I also think it was infatuation they mistake for love. I never really felt that deep love. I was treated like a Princess and put on a pedestal,  until I was knocked down on my butt by reality. He did a number on me as many of you know, but I am stronger and although he left deep scars,  I also realized that I cannot grieve for what I didn't have,  real love. So I feel peace now and calm. I don't feel jealous of future victims,  because that's what they are and I feel bad knowing someone else might be victimized the same way I have been.  So no, I don't believe I had real love, which has made it easy to walk away and stay away. Thanks to you guys, I am not alone in this traumatic experience. Even if I end up alone, I know I am much better off. :-)

Bianca, like you, infatuation is all that my BPDexgf had for me. And, like you, now realizing that it never was a true relationship based on true love from both parties has made it much easier for me to begin the recovery process. Quite frankly, I feel as if I have been preyed upon. She processed me; it's that simple. Do I blame her or have ill feelings against her, no. She is a person with a mental disorder that she did not ask for. But, I cannot excuse her actions as a happenstance. And it's a system she has developed, which I did not see while in the relationship.

Keep it objective and somewhat quantifiable... .me like.

I'd say, and you might agree, we'd have to first define love, at least in our own terms.

I felt love from her, but perhaps it was just her attachment disorder fooling me.

In the end, it is difficult to know if someone else felt your definition of an emotion.

All I know is that over time, it did not feel like it and/or it was not sustainable.

I think that is might be all I need to know.

Even if it was "love" it was not sustainable, and so was not worthwhile.
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« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2015, 03:39:30 AM »

I discussed this topic with my T today.

It is indeed love. However, they are absolutely terrible at expressing anything in a mature way, positive or negative. There are several factors that govern this, but it all boils down to "they're mentally ill."  The regular feelings and emotions they experience, get supercharged for lack of a better word, by the disorder.

If it wasn't love, they wouldn't keep coming back.

I beg to differ, slightly, in my view on this topic... . 

their 'love' is not love in the adult sense

it is 'love' in the need-based sense of a child

a child (toddler aged) does not love their parents in the adult way - an emotion based on the personality and character of another person, coupled with elements of romance, camaraderie, and trust, etc

a child 'loves' mom and dad b/c they: feed me when I'm hungry, get me my favorite blanket when I'm cold, kiss me and tell me good night, etc

mom and dad also say they love me, and I parrot it back... .

a child can't love their parents in an adult way, b/c they do not have the capacity to evaluate another person based on their personality and character, not to mention the fact thier inexperience in dealing with other people (they have nothing/no one to compare mom and dad's love to... .)

love is non-existent for the BPD, quite simply b/c they do not have the capacity for it... .they are that emotionally arrested, stunted, and immature... .

as well as b/c they do not love themselves!

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« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2015, 04:19:15 AM »

And that's really what it comes down to.  If you believe a child's reality is invalid or not. The thing is if the childs reality is invalid then so is our own because it was our inner child we projected onto the pwBPD. That is the issue that got us into the mess to begin with is our inner invalidated child.  The act of dismissing and invalidating the pwBPDs experience is to cut ourself off from the pain of our own vulnerable child schemA becuase the experience of our own emotions is overwhelming.  Essentially it is a coping mechenism to avoid feeling out own pain.  When we do this we engage the same ego defence mechanisms as a pwBPD.  It does nothing to solve the puzzle of how we ended up in this situation and what we were trying to resolve in the first place by attaching to a pwBPD.
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