Lightbulb moment: they never loved us

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Today is my exes birthday, to be honest I wasn't looking forward to it because of the feelings I thought it might dredge up. This day one year ago we spent a superb day together but I now realise that she was on her way out the door, she stayed at my place but the next morning she gathered up most of her things (we didn't live together)

Anyway, today I had a lightbulb moment. She never loved me! A person that loves you is not concerned about the age difference, a person that loves you doesn't not want to be around your kids, a person that loves you doesn't care that you live 50 miles apart, a person that loves you doesn't pack up and go home at the first hurdle. A person that loves you believes in you and believes in the r/s and works through stuff. Sure she continually said she loved me, but she didn't, not at all. On our very last day together she said "I love you but I'm not in love with you" this is key! She loved the idea of falling in love, she loved the dreamy infatuation stage but real love, she didn't have a clue what that is.

Somehow knowing that she never loved me is like a huge weight lifted from my shoulders. For a person that truly did love you to simply disappear would be inexplicable, but it's not so hard to understand once you realise that they never loved you. Sure she probably thought she was in love but infatuation is not love. There is a spring in my step today! I hope this helps someone getting over their breakup!

[drummerboy]

Today is my exes birthday, to be honest I wasn't looking forward to it because of the feelings I thought it might dredge up. This day one year ago we spent a superb day together but I now realise that she was on her way out the door, she stayed at my place but the next morning she gathered up most of her things (we didn't live together)

Anyway, today I had a lightbulb moment. She never loved me! A person that loves you is not concerned about the age difference, a person that loves you doesn't not want to be around your kids, a person that loves you doesn't care that you live 50 miles apart, a person that loves you doesn't pack up and go home at the first hurdle. A person that loves you believes in you and believes in the r/s and works through stuff. Sure she continually said she loved me, but she didn't, not at all. On our very last day together she said "I love you but I'm not in love with you" this is key! She loved the idea of falling in love, she loved the dreamy infatuation stage but real love, she didn't have a clue what that is.

Somehow knowing that she never loved me is like a huge weight lifted from my shoulders. For a person that truly did love you to simply disappear would be inexplicable, but it's not so hard to understand once you realise that they never loved you. Sure she probably thought she was in love but infatuation is not love. There is a spring in my step today! I hope this helps someone getting over their breakup!

[Matt8888]

You got that right.  We happened to fill a need in their life when they were afraid to be alone.  They did have feelings for us in the early stage of the relationship, but I wouldn't call it love.

How can you love someone and then never speak to them again.  I just don't get it. 

These are very damaged people.  They don't think like you or I.

[hoaianhcameron]

Well, personally, i think they do love us! Look at all the good twinkling memories you had together, how could it be so endearing if it were not love?

However, i also believe our (NonBPD) definition of love and theirs are different. Like what we read about BPD, emotion to them is like a fact but as you know, emotion is never stable, even for non BPD. Jumping in and out are just their way of coping with emotion ups & down for surviva. Their past experience doesn't let them learn how to mature in relationship but it doesn't mean they are not capable of loving.

That's what i thought!

[going places]

Based upon the Biblical definition of Love:

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails.

I would agree.

My ex and whatever PD he has: NEVER 'loved' me.

Which is fine. That's not my problem!

[parisian]

It's not love in the way we know or expect.

We are just a warm body and some temporary narcisstic supply to curb their unfillable desire for attachment. It could be anyone which is why replacements are so common. They can't bear to be by themselves, and then can't handle the closeness of a relationship.

Whilst I'm sure there are some things they really liked about us, their actions don't equal their words. Their actions don't equate to love, care or kindness, regardless of how much they say it. It is just a learned script because that's what people say in relationships right?

As soon as there is commitment, then the horrible fear of enmeshment overwhelms them and they despise and reject us.

[drummerboy]

I cannot agree, happy memories do not denote love. Yes, they probably thought they loved but it wasn't what I would call love, it was a need. I would say it is impossible to love when you are self absorbed. My favourite definition of love is from Eric Fromm's famous book "The Art of Loving" in which he says: "Love is the active concern for the life and the growth of that which we love" pwBPD weren't concerned about us beyond what we could give to them. Their whole life is about them, me, me, me! Love is about giving, not taking. The only thing my ex gave was her body because that's probably all she had to give, she certainly didn't give me any emotional support like in a normal relationship. All she talked about was herself, her issues, her crisis. That's not love in my opinion. As I said in the first post, love to them is the giddy feeling you get in the infatuation stage when you don't even know the person.

Well, personally, i think they do love us! Look at all the good twinkling memories you had together, how could it be so endearing if it were not love?

However, i also believe our (NonBPD) definition of love and theirs are different. Like what we read about BPD, emotion to them is like a fact but as you know, emotion is never stable, even for non BPD. Jumping in and out are just their way of coping with emotion ups & down for surviva. Their past experience doesn't let them learn how to mature in relationship but it doesn't mean they are not capable of loving.

That's what i thought!

[BorisAcusio]

It's clearly outlined in the clinical literature, that for pwBPD, love equates to need. It takes to time accept it.  

The equally profound realization comes when you examine your own feelings. Did we really love them as a person, or rather the fantasy we projected onto them?

And we all love being idealized.  That pedestal was a big ego boost for me.  I think that's one of the reasons we're so devastated and trying to figure out what went wrong.  We want that phase back because it was great for us.  I loved being on that pedestal.  Maybe we're chasing them for selfish reasons.  We want to "figure them out and fix them" so they'll go back to meeting our ego needs.  It's devastating to realize that we were nothing special like we thought we were.  And our ego booster isn't coming back.

[SlyQQ]

if trust has anything to do with love then i would say no

[drummerboy]

This is really profound and where our healing begins. I think you are correct, I loved what I thought/hoped it would be with this person who adored me. Massive ego boost yes but my deepest fear is that I fell in love with the ego boost and fell in love with the unrestrained physical intimacy. I'm not proud to admit this, I actually feel shame but these are very important points to consider during the realisation process. I invented this person that I thought was the person I'd waited my whole life for. She was an illusion as was my projection.

The equally profound realization comes when you examine your own feelings. Did we really love them as a person, or rather the fantasy we projected onto them

[mallard3868]

This is really profound and where our healing begins. I think you are correct, I loved what I thought/hoped it would be with this person who adored me. Massive ego boost yes but my deepest fear is that I fell in love with the ego boost and fell in love with the unrestrained physical intimacy. I'm not proud to admit this, I actually feel shame but these are very important points to consider during the realisation process. I invented this person that I thought was the person I'd waited my whole life for. She was an illusion as was my projection.

The equally profound realization comes when you examine your own feelings. Did we really love them as a person, or rather the fantasy we projected onto them

As for me, I think you hit the nail on the head! BUT know knowing what we know, how would (or could) anyone see that coming? As with our BPD's, perception is reality.

[downnout98]

It's clearly outlined in the clinical literature, that for pwBPD, love equates to need. It takes to time accept it.  

The equally profound realization comes when you examine your own feelings. Did we really love them as a person, or rather the fantasy we projected onto them?

And we all love being idealized.  That pedestal was a big ego boost for me.  I think that's one of the reasons we're so devastated and trying to figure out what went wrong.  We want that phase back because it was great for us.  I loved being on that pedestal.  Maybe we're chasing them for selfish reasons.  We want to "figure them out and fix them" so they'll go back to meeting our ego needs.  It's devastating to realize that we were nothing special like we thought we were.  And our ego booster isn't coming back.

Wow, this is hard to admit but so true in my case. I think you right in explaining why it is so hard to let this go. My ex was so good at giving and taking it away that I really started to need the pedestal again. I wanted to be back on it so bad, and would give up almost anything to have it back. That and the unrestrained physical intimacy as was so accurately mentioned earlier. Sad to say I became addicted to them.

[apollotech]

I agree with you 100℅. BPD's don't know how to love or what true love is or entails. Their brand of love is always need(s) based. True love in a healthy, mutually caring/giving/exclusive/respectful/etc. relationship is selfless. The entire replacement enterprise confirms the need(s) based system: A Non could no longer fulfill the need(s) of the BPD; therefore, he/she quickly moves on to a new host.

Infatuation, yes, BPD's seem to have completely bought into infatuation as love. That is also a very poor criteria/driver for selecting/attaching to another person. Hence the emotional immaturity at work.

[Infared]

I agree with you 100℅. BPD's don't know how to love or what true love is or entails. Their brand of love is always need(s) based. True love in a healthy, mutually caring/giving/exclusive/respectful/etc. relationship is selfless. The entire replacement enterprise confirms the need(s) based system: A Non could no longer fulfill the need(s) of the BPD; therefore, he/she quickly moves on to a new host.

Infatuation, yes, BPD's seem to have completely bought into infatuation as love. That is also a very poor criteria/driver for selecting/attaching to another person. Hence the emotional immaturity at work.

This is what I experienced.

[Blimblam]

Love is forgiveness.  So by that measure does that mean we never loved our exs and are just a bunch of narcisists that used our exs to feel good about ourselves?  It is not so simple. 

Wasn't it that innitial forgiving of the faults of the other that fostered that innitial bond of love in the begining of the relationship?

[drummerboy]

If you think you loved someone and later find out that the person you thought you loved was a fraud do you still call it love? It means we loved an illusion, an illusion that we created based on her words. That's been the key for me, comparing the actions to the words. And yes, I know in my case I most certainly did use her to feel good about myself, hard truths to accept but they must be faced. In a BPD r/s they are the narcissists/emotional manipulator  and we had varying degrees of codependency, in my case I was seeking a love missing from my childhood thehard fact for me to realise has been that I used her and she used me, the difference between us is that in the end I believe I'm a good person and that she was not a nice person.

Love is forgiveness.  So by that measure does that mean we never loved our exs and are just a bunch of narcisists that used our exs to feel good about ourselves?  It is not so simple.  

Wasn't it that innitial forgiving of the faults of the other that fostered that innitial bond of love in the begining of the relationship?

[Blimblam]

The illusion existed before we met our exs.  Our exs try to be a part of this illusion for us to receive love, not to decieve us or out of cruelty.  The deception is our own.

[hergestridge]

Love is also about loyalty, commitment and trust. I gave those things to my BPDw, but what I got back was needines and doubt. Basically she was telling me it was her and me forever, but she also painted a grim picture of the future, as if things weren't going to work out, and what was I going to do about it?

Love is about trying to do your best to make your partner happy and make his/her life easy. But she was all about complaints and pushing limits. To put it simply she was just being mean. Just like she was to her parents and her brother.

[Blimblam]

Drummer, I can relate to where you are at and how you are trying to make sense of a crap ton of pain and emotional turmoil.  I had a long internal struggle about if she lived me and all of that but it didn't really help me to understand because love is too large of a concept and it gets too existential.  Reframing and understaning attachment styles and the development of the self helped to clear that up. 

[willieb4]

I believe they do not love themselves, so are incapable of love.

As for us nons, this Anthony De Mello quote speaks volumes:

"You are never in love with anyone. You're only in love with your prejudiced and hopeful idea of that person."

[Bianca]

I also think it was infatuation they mistake for love. I never really felt that deep love. I was treated like a Princess and put on a pedestal,  until I was knocked down on my butt by reality. He did a number on me as many of you know, but I am stronger and although he left deep scars,  I also realized that I cannot grieve for what I didn't have,  real love. So I feel peace now and calm. I don't feel jealous of future victims,  because that's what they are and I feel bad knowing someone else might be victimized the same way I have been.  So no, I don't believe I had real love, which has made it easy to walk away and stay away. Thanks to you guys, I am not alone in this traumatic experience. Even if I end up alone, I know I am much better off. :-)

[.cup.car]

I discussed this topic with my T today.

It is indeed love. However, they are absolutely terrible at expressing anything in a mature way, positive or negative. There are several factors that govern this, but it all boils down to "they're mentally ill."  The regular feelings and emotions they experience, get supercharged for lack of a better word, by the disorder.

If it wasn't love, they wouldn't keep coming back. In my T's words: "Hundreds of couples miss each other and reconnect each day. It's not abnormal."

In my particular situation, my ex slept around a notorious amount... .but despite the sheer number of guys/girls, the only one she got attached to was me. Nobody else had any relationship stories about her... .It was all just "I took her home from the bar and she started crying about her dad in bed and then I never talked to her again and went & got tested for an STD."

Whereas myself, I have this whole saga spanning like, five years full of lies, abuse, stalking... .etc... .It's not healthy, but she never did that with anyone else. So back to what my T said, yes, it's love, they're just awful at expressing it.

[apollotech]

I also think it was infatuation they mistake for love. I never really felt that deep love. I was treated like a Princess and put on a pedestal,  until I was knocked down on my butt by reality. He did a number on me as many of you know, but I am stronger and although he left deep scars,  I also realized that I cannot grieve for what I didn't have,  real love. So I feel peace now and calm. I don't feel jealous of future victims,  because that's what they are and I feel bad knowing someone else might be victimized the same way I have been.  So no, I don't believe I had real love, which has made it easy to walk away and stay away. Thanks to you guys, I am not alone in this traumatic experience. Even if I end up alone, I know I am much better off. :-)

Bianca, like you, infatuation is all that my BPDexgf had for me. And, like you, now realizing that it never was a true relationship based on true love from both parties has made it much easier for me to begin the recovery process. Quite frankly, I feel as if I have been preyed upon. She processed me; it's that simple. Do I blame her or have ill feelings against her, no. She is a person with a mental disorder that she did not ask for. But, I cannot excuse her actions as a happenstance. And it's a system she has developed, which I did not see while in the relationship.

[cosmonaut]

How does one measure love?  How else but with the heart?  We must rely upon our hearts to tell us, for it is our souls not our brains that know love.  Every single one of us - every human who has ever lived and who will ever live - knows in their heart what love is and yearns for it above all else.  Attempting to intellectualize love will always fail.  Our brains can not understand it and yet every single one of us understands it.

We were loved.  We had to be.  None of us would be here if we were not loved.  It is the loss of that love that brought us to this place.  BPD is tragedy.  It is Paradise Lost.  If your heart tells you that you were loved, then believe it.

I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that my ex loved me.  She loved me so completely, so totally that it consumed her.

[SlyQQ]

I guess to me part of love is willing to take a bullet for them there are a few people i would do that for BPD will say they will do it Almost insist that you do it for them but the chances of them taking one for you or anyone ?

[AwakenedOne]

My xBPDw never did anything at all to save our marriage. Absolutely nothing. Promises = nothing in reality. That's not love.

As I tried to save the marriage she treated me like an animal. That's not love.

I've been feeding and tending to a neighborhood stray cat lately. I thought of my BPDx today when I looked at the cat. This cat loves me now and is happy that it's getting fed and it's basic needs met but if Joe Blo down the street feeds the cat more food the cat will not remember me ever again. That's not love.

[expos]

You got that right.  We happened to fill a need in their life when they were afraid to be alone.  They did have feelings for us in the early stage of the relationship, but I wouldn't call it love.

How can you love someone and then never speak to them again.  I just don't get it. 

These are very damaged people.  They don't think like you or I.

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS x100000

[letmeout]

Somehow knowing that she never loved me is like a huge weight lifted from my shoulders.

I have to agree with that statement, one of the things that finally pushed me out of the relationship.

He could fake it when it suited him, but he never felt love for me or anything else for that matter. Except for his beer, he loved his beer. 

[raisins3142]

I also think it was infatuation they mistake for love. I never really felt that deep love. I was treated like a Princess and put on a pedestal,  until I was knocked down on my butt by reality. He did a number on me as many of you know, but I am stronger and although he left deep scars,  I also realized that I cannot grieve for what I didn't have,  real love. So I feel peace now and calm. I don't feel jealous of future victims,  because that's what they are and I feel bad knowing someone else might be victimized the same way I have been.  So no, I don't believe I had real love, which has made it easy to walk away and stay away. Thanks to you guys, I am not alone in this traumatic experience. Even if I end up alone, I know I am much better off. :-)

Bianca, like you, infatuation is all that my BPDexgf had for me. And, like you, now realizing that it never was a true relationship based on true love from both parties has made it much easier for me to begin the recovery process. Quite frankly, I feel as if I have been preyed upon. She processed me; it's that simple. Do I blame her or have ill feelings against her, no. She is a person with a mental disorder that she did not ask for. But, I cannot excuse her actions as a happenstance. And it's a system she has developed, which I did not see while in the relationship.

Keep it objective and somewhat quantifiable... .me like.

I'd say, and you might agree, we'd have to first define love, at least in our own terms.

I felt love from her, but perhaps it was just her attachment disorder fooling me.

In the end, it is difficult to know if someone else felt your definition of an emotion.

All I know is that over time, it did not feel like it and/or it was not sustainable.

I think that is might be all I need to know.

Even if it was "love" it was not sustainable, and so was not worthwhile.

[antelope]

I discussed this topic with my T today.

It is indeed love. However, they are absolutely terrible at expressing anything in a mature way, positive or negative. There are several factors that govern this, but it all boils down to "they're mentally ill."  The regular feelings and emotions they experience, get supercharged for lack of a better word, by the disorder.

If it wasn't love, they wouldn't keep coming back.

I beg to differ, slightly, in my view on this topic... . 

their 'love' is not love in the adult sense

it is 'love' in the need-based sense of a child

a child (toddler aged) does not love their parents in the adult way - an emotion based on the personality and character of another person, coupled with elements of romance, camaraderie, and trust, etc

a child 'loves' mom and dad b/c they: feed me when I'm hungry, get me my favorite blanket when I'm cold, kiss me and tell me good night, etc

mom and dad also say they love me, and I parrot it back... .

a child can't love their parents in an adult way, b/c they do not have the capacity to evaluate another person based on their personality and character, not to mention the fact thier inexperience in dealing with other people (they have nothing/no one to compare mom and dad's love to... .)

love is non-existent for the BPD, quite simply b/c they do not have the capacity for it... .they are that emotionally arrested, stunted, and immature... .

as well as b/c they do not love themselves!

[Blimblam]

And that's really what it comes down to.  If you believe a child's reality is invalid or not. The thing is if the childs reality is invalid then so is our own because it was our inner child we projected onto the pwBPD. That is the issue that got us into the mess to begin with is our inner invalidated child.  The act of dismissing and invalidating the pwBPDs experience is to cut ourself off from the pain of our own vulnerable child schemA becuase the experience of our own emotions is overwhelming.  Essentially it is a coping mechenism to avoid feeling out own pain.  When we do this we engage the same ego defence mechanisms as a pwBPD.  It does nothing to solve the puzzle of how we ended up in this situation and what we were trying to resolve in the first place by attaching to a pwBPD.

[BorisAcusio]

I discussed this topic with my T today.

It is indeed love. However, they are absolutely terrible at expressing anything in a mature way, positive or negative. There are several factors that govern this, but it all boils down to "they're mentally ill."  The regular feelings and emotions they experience, get supercharged for lack of a better word, by the disorder.

If it wasn't love, they wouldn't keep coming back. In my T's words: "Hundreds of couples miss each other and reconnect each day. It's not abnormal."

In my particular situation, my ex slept around a notorious amount... .but despite the sheer number of guys/girls, the only one she got attached to was me. Nobody else had any relationship stories about her... .It was all just "I took her home from the bar and she started crying about her dad in bed and then I never talked to her again and went & got tested for an STD."

Whereas myself, I have this whole saga spanning like, five years full of lies, abuse, stalking... .etc... .It's not healthy, but she never did that with anyone else. So back to what my T said, yes, it's love, they're just awful at expressing it.

I don't want to invalidate your experience, but your T's reasoning is based on a quite appereant logical flaw. It seems to me that she/he may have been specialized in other fields of psychology, which is completely fine, as treating mental health issues is a quite broad field of expertise.

[going places]

Based upon the Biblical definition of Love:

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails.

I would agree.

My ex and whatever PD he has: NEVER 'loved' me.

Which is fine. That's not my problem!

Based upon the Biblical description of what "Love IS"... .yes, I did love.

Love is not a 'feeling'.

"Passion-wild sex-rushing head swirling highs" in a relationship are 'feelings' not love.

Some people are in "love" with that "feeling" and when that "feeling" is gone, OOPS "they fell out of love" and go seeking a new "rush of feelings."

[Infared]

Based upon the Biblical definition of Love:

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails.

I would agree.

My ex and whatever PD he has: NEVER 'loved' me.

Which is fine. That's not my problem!

Based upon the Biblical description of what "Love IS"... .yes, I did love.

Love is not a 'feeling'.

"Passion-wild sex-rushing head swirling highs" in a relationship are 'feelings' not love.

Some people are in "love" with that "feeling" and when that "feeling" is gone, OOPS "they fell out of love" and go seeking a new "rush of feelings."

Hence the childish comment from my ex (while still living with me but banging my replacement). "I love you, but I am not 'in love' with you". What a psycho. That is just the tip of the iceberg for her self-centered abusive comments and actions that followed.

The funny thing is... .she is surprised that I have nothing but disdain for her... .she just doesn't know WHY?  LOL!  

PwBPD are not ever really easily understood... .least of all by themselves.

[slimmiller]

In one of the more telling arguments with my ex after she painted me black, discarded and replaced me I told her what we had was not real.

Her 'How could you say that? Just because I dont feel the same way anymore does not mean we didnt have a good thing'

Me, 'Because me saying that would imply what we had was real, it was NOT?'

It was all a charade from the logical adult perspective. To her it was real, sure but only in a child sense. Which is fine exepct she likes to use her body (and who ever she happens to be sleeping with at the moment) as an adult would.

To her real, to me, just an act. Nothing can change that.

[Infared]

In one of the more telling arguments with my ex after she painted me black, discarded and replaced me I told her what we had was not real.

Her 'How could you say that? Just because I dont feel the same way anymore does not mean we didnt have a good thing'

Me, 'Because me saying that would imply what we had was real, it was NOT?'

It was all a charade from the logical adult perspective. To her it was real, sure but only in a child sense. Which is fine exepct she likes to use her body (and who ever she happens to be sleeping with at the moment) as an adult would.

To her real, to me, just an act. Nothing can change that.

Well... .yeah... .it's like an 7-year-old's mental and emotional capabilities, combined with the sexual prowess of an adult.  When the mirroring is occurring, it's all great for us... .but it's a ugly trap... .because when we are discarded and attempting to reason and converse with this child/panther, that is when we see what we signed up for.  It  may be  love to them... .who knows?

[going places]

I have ALWAYS said that my ex has some sort of 'arrested development' because talking to him / reasoning with him / trying to do ANY sort of communicating with him is like talking to a spoiled, entitled, self absorbed 13 year old boy in the throws of puberty.

I can talk to all 3 of my kids (all in their early 20's) and have infinitely more intelligent conversations than with him.

I used to tell my gf all the time: I am raising 4 kids; 3 I birthed, 1 I married.

She agreed.

[Deeno02]

Its a hard pill to swallow when it dawns on you that it was all smoke and mirrors. Felt great having someone idealize you, and you loving someone in return. Unfortunately, it became one sided. Nothing I can do about it, not even going to try. She replaced me a week after dumping me, so now the new guy gets his turn at bat. More smoke and mirrors. I suppose it is what it is.

[Blimblam]

Really, honestly the simpilist way to frame it is, do you love your parents?  Is that love or just attachment?

The case can be made that you don't love your parents but at least for me in my heart I know I do.

[SlyQQ]

Each to there own Blim I dont think your on the mark they dont love like children or anyone else whoever said cats or tigers was closest imho

[Blimblam]

Each to there own Blim I dont think your on the mark

they dont love like children or anyone else whoever

said cats or tigers was closest  imho

I get ur hurt but they are human beings. Soylent green is people! 

[BorisAcusio]

Few excerpts from clinical literature:


Kernberg

OMNIPOTENCE AND DEVALUATION

also closely linked to splitting. shows defensive use of self and other images. may be a shift between “the need to establish a demanding, clinging relationship to an idealized ‘magic’ object at some times, and fantasies and behavior betraying a deep feeling of magical omnipotence of their own at other times.” both states represent their identification with an “all good” object, idealized and powerful, as a protection against bad “persecutory” objects. There is no “dependency” in the sense of love for the ideal object and concern for it. On a deeper level the idealized person is treated ruthlessly, possessively, as an extension of the patient himself.” even when apparent submission to an idealized external object, deep underlying omnipotent fantasies there. “The need to control the idealized objects, to use them in attempts to manipulate and exploit the environment and to ‘destroy potential enemies’ is linked with inordinate pride in the ‘possession’ of these perfect objects totally dedicated to the patient.” underneath, insecurity, self-criticism, and inferiority….often there are grandiose and omnipotent trends as compensation. often an unconscious conviction that they are special, and to have privileges. if object can’t provide more gratification or protection it is dropped and dismissed, because there was no real capacity for love of this object anyway. tendency to devaluate objects influenced by other things…1) revengeful destruction of object that frustrated the patient’s needs (esp. oral), 2) defensive devaluation of objects so that they can be seen as “persecutors.” “The devaluation of significant objects of the patient’s past has serious detrimental effects on the internalized object relations, and especially on the structures involved in superego formation and integration.”

Modell:

In his clinical reports Modell highlights how borderline individuals use inanimate objects to relate to in their adult lives, in place of human relationships. Even more striking is their use of other people as if they were inanimate to serve a self-regulating, soothing function, to be used as the toddler uses a teddy bear, in primitive, demanding ways. It is as if their attachment experiences failed to permit the internalization of an emotion regulation strategy

R. Bradley

emotional investment in relationships (tendency to view others in need-gratifying ways or to experience them as independent people with their own needs and concerns

As hypoth-esized clinically, BPD is also associated with a lower capacity for emotional investment in relationships (i.e., a tendency to focus on the gratification, security, or benefits others provide) and in values and moral standards (e.g., poorly integrated standards for the self, failure to internalize and integrate value systems)

Masterson:

The borderline patient defines love as a relationship with a partner who will offer approval and support for regressive behavior.


Intimacy as a stress deserves special consideration. The mature capacity for love and intimacy is produced by successful resolution of conflicts throughout development. However, there are two key conflicts that must be resolved: separation from the mother in the separation-individuation stage; and giving up of the mother or father as a love object in the oedipal stage.

The separation-individuation phase therefore makes an important contribution to the normal capacity to love, while a failure in separation-individuation leads to difficulties in the capacity to love. During separation-individuation the child intrapsychically separates from the mother and develops an image of himself as being entirely separate from that of the mother. The dividends of successful separation-individuation for the child's ego strength have already been described (see pp. 32-33). Some of these are repeated here as they contribute to the capacity to love: first and

foremost, object constancy (as described by Fraiberg) with its companion, the capacity to mourn loss of an object (52, 190) ; second, the capacity to be alone and to feel concern, as opposed to need for others, as described by Winnicott (228, 231), and the capacity to tolerate anxiety and depression as described by Zetzel (248, 251) ; finally, the capacity to emotionally commit oneself to another without fear of engulfment or abandonment.

In addition, a successful separation-individuation phase with its intuitive and empathie communication between mother and child forms the anlage of ‘‘feeling good” to which the oedipal phase adds the sexual and romantic elements. These two together will later direct the individual to a choice of a mate with whom he or she can repeat this kind of feeling and communication, i.e., the refinding of the object, which Freud stated as follows: "Every state of being in love reproduces infantile prototypes. The finding of an object is in fact a refinding” (59).

The degree to which there has been deprivation or a “bad fit” in the separation-individuation phase will determine the degree to which this early developmental experience will overshadow and influence all later efforts at an intimate or close relationship. Most people suffer at least some minor trauma in separation-individuation which later shows up as minor difficulties in intimate relationships—for what human mother possesses the attributes necessary to be empathie and intuitive to all of her child’s unfolding individuality! The endpoint of this spectrum of deprivation is seen in the pathology of love shown by the borderline.

Westen et al.

Object relations in borderline adolescents.

Borderline adolescents have a malevolent object world, a relative incapacity to invest in others in a non-need-gratifying way, and a tendency to attribute motivation to others in simple, illogical, and idiosyncratic ways.

And a gem from the respected member, 2010:

We each assume (we don't even think about it, it seems so obvious) that we are unique and special, that they "loved" us because they saw in us our true personality, the caring, fun, sincere, amazing people that we are.  They loved us because of who we are; we are unique, desirable, attractive, smart, funny, courageous, perhaps their soulmate and true love.  Because we assume this, when they leave us and replace us so easily we are confused and traumatized.  

For a long, long time we persist in believing that they really, truly "loved" us, and only us, and that they will eventually come back to us because we are the right one, the perfect mate for them, because they loved us for our special and unique qualities that they will never find in anyone else.

What is hard to accept is that this person we wait for has a personality disorder.  Yes, they desired and wanted us, but they desired and wanted others too.  We were not desired or "loved" because of our uniqueness or special qualities.  We were just another bit player in the script.  The next person that enters stage right thinks the same thing we thought.  

This "stand-in" replacement believes that the bPD "loves" them because of their uniqueness.  The next victim assumes that the bPD had a rotten relationship with us, that we were not a good match, and that the borderline discovered them and realized that they were a better match.

We are all "loved" in the sense that we are desired as objects that provided something for them.  Cluster B people (the Histrionics, Narcissists and Borderlines) have a hidden script running underneath their emotional resonance table. They follow that script.  All they need are bit parts (that's you and me) to fill up their stage.  Once you realize what script is playing, you'll recognize the behaviors that come along with it and you'll see what part you are to play.

[Infared]

Each to there own Blim I dont think your on the mark

they dont love like children or anyone else whoever

said cats or tigers was closest  imho

I get ur hurt but they are human beings. Soylent green is people!  

Yes... .mentally arrested/ill people.  I am not like that.

[Infared]

"Borderline adolescents have a malevolent object world, a relative incapacity to invest in others in a non-need-gratifying way, and a tendency to attribute motivation to others in simple, illogical, and idiosyncratic ways."

Can we please change "adolescences" to "adults"?  

I was deeply loving in an adult manner, I did not "know" that I was an "object"... .until my expwBPD switched objects. It happened like lightning!  I had no clue what was going on. I was in deep pain and confusion and headed for an incredibly painfully brutal grieving process.  (it's actually easier when someone dies... I understand that... .They are GONE!)... .

With this ... .I did not know she had switched "love" objects. (Because of course she was lying and cheating), ... so... she is standing there in front of me... .but the person that I knew had vanished (was dead). Furthermore, they have not a wisp of empathy for the pain that I am feeling because of their selfish actions. None. It's twisted and almost impossible for a normal logical mind to process the reality of what is going on. It's also painful as hell. I was deeply committed in adult love and I had to take the slow painful walk out of that... .To my partner a breeze had blown and what we were to her had just vanished... .on a dime. If I had not lived it... .I would not think it was possible. Love is an on/off switch for individuals with BPD as far as I can see. They are child-like. I now imagine her in her mind saying:"Eennie, meenie, minie, moe... ."

Grieving a death is much "easier" as at least I comprehend exactly what has happened. I'm in pain... .but my mind understands that someone has died.

[BorisAcusio]

Few excerpts from clinical literature:

William N. Goldstein

Regarding the other ego functions, there are fewer differences between narcissistic and borderline patients. Interpersonal relations, intact superficially, are sometimes maintained to a somewhat better degree in the narcissistic patient, yet are nonetheless distorted by narcissistic configurations. As in the borderline grouping, relationships are characterized as need fulfilling; there is a striking lack of depth and empathy and a lack of concern for the other individual as a person.

[Blimblam]

Great post Boris.  But I guarantee you if you found some sort of break down for the nons love for a borderline it would not be pretty.  Or the way a codependent loves a borderline.  Or better yet the narcissist.

They used a bit of object relations but it only focuses on the borderline not the non. We are all on here because our validating object stopped validating. That we only stayed to prove to ourselves we did in fact love them and only left when we were certain we could pin the blame on them.

A strong case can be made that codependents are unable to experience love.  

"Tainted love. I love you even though you hurt me so."

[SlyQQ]

I was not saying they are not people people are animals to, dogs have a great ability to love people BPDs dont just because they cant love like us doesnt mean there not people if some one of low IQ not a person just because they arent smart?

[Deeno02]

Great post Boris.  But I guarantee you if you found some sort of break down for the nons love for a borderline it would not be pretty.  Or the way a codependent loves a borderline.  Or better yet the narcissist.

They used a bit of object relations but it only focuses on the borderline not the non. We are all on here because our validating object stopped validating. That we only stayed to prove to ourselves we did in fact love them and only left when we were certain we could pin the blame on them.

A strong case can be made that codependents are unable to experience love.  

"Tainted love. I love you even though you hurt me so."

Speak for yourself. I did not leave mine. She dumped me.

[Blimblam]

I'm sorry deeno.

I remember being 2 years old and I remember what my parents were to me then.  It is not adult love but it is love. 

[SlyQQ]

Just curious I stoped loving my ex BPD when i found out what she was really like she actually hid it pretty well for a long time the hurt was for the way i was conned and a lot of lost innocence and trust that will never be the same I loved well tried hard an was not co dependent but the real point is believe what you want to believe to get better there is a case for both sides I just hope people can believe the case they want to one of my problems My ex reall ynever did love me even in a BPD way except as a game i was just conveinient

[going places]

"Borderline adolescents have a malevolent object world, a relative incapacity to invest in others in a non-need-gratifying way, and a tendency to attribute motivation to others in simple, illogical, and idiosyncratic ways."

Can we please change "adolescences" to "adults"?  

I was deeply loving in an adult manner, I did not "know" that I was an "object"... .until my expwBPD switched objects. It happened like lightning!  I had no clue what was going on. I was in deep pain and confusion and headed for an incredibly painfully brutal grieving process.  (it's actually easier when someone dies... I understand that... .They are GONE!)... .

With this ... .I did not know she had switched "love" objects. (Because of course she was lying and cheating), ... so... she is standing there in front of me... .but the person that I knew had vanished (was dead). Furthermore, they have not a wisp of empathy for the pain that I am feeling because of their selfish actions. None. It's twisted and almost impossible for a normal logical mind to process the reality of what is going on. It's also painful as hell. I was deeply committed in adult love and I had to take the slow painful walk out of that... .To my partner a breeze had blown and what we were to her had just vanished... .on a dime. If I had not lived it... .I would not think it was possible. Love is an on/off switch for individuals with BPD as far as I can see. They are child-like. I now imagine her in her mind saying:"Eennie, meenie, minie, moe... ."

Grieving a death is much "easier" as at least I comprehend exactly what has happened. I'm in pain... .but my mind understands that someone has died.

I am so sorry this happened to you.

I spent 22 years "in a lie" and then 3 more "under the spell"... .(gaslighting, abuse, etc)

I totally get what you are saying.

I totally agree.

[Infared]

Great post Boris.  But I guarantee you if you found some sort of break down for the nons love for a borderline it would not be pretty.  Or the way a codependent loves a borderline.  Or better yet the narcissist.

They used a bit of object relations but it only focuses on the borderline not the non. We are all on here because our validating object stopped validating. That we only stayed to prove to ourselves we did in fact love them and only left when we were certain we could pin the blame on them.

A strong case can be made that codependents are unable to experience love.  

"Tainted love. I love you even though you hurt me so."

Full Lyrics:

"I love you though you hurt me so

Now I'm gonna pack my things and go"

That sounds to me like someone taking care of themselves. Not a codependent.

[Leaving]

It's clearly outlined in the clinical literature, that for pwBPD, love equates to need. It takes to time accept it.  

The equally profound realization comes when you examine your own feelings. Did we really love them as a person, or rather the fantasy we projected onto them?

And we all love being idealized.  That pedestal was a big ego boost for me.  I think that's one of the reasons we're so devastated and trying to figure out what went wrong.  We want that phase back because it was great for us.  I loved being on that pedestal.  Maybe we're chasing them for selfish reasons.  We want to "figure them out and fix them" so they'll go back to meeting our ego needs.  It's devastating to realize that we were nothing special like we thought we were.  And our ego booster isn't coming back.

I agree with Boris that for the BPD'd love equates with need but generally speaking, most people tend to confuse love with need like they confuse sex with love.  Love begins with loving ourselves unconditionally and without that... well, what we cannot give, we cannot receive. Not many of us ever achieve that because unconditional love is not widely accepted in our ego bound world because it has no boundaries and we all know how competitive civilizations, economies and religions love to create differences and boundaries.  I'm no enlightened expert but I tend to be a very philosophical and artsy person and don't equate love with needing anyone our anything outside of myself. I've always been happy being alone but I love sharing my life with another person as well. I loved my husband in the beginning as a separate and unique man who I thought was sensitive, kind, gentle, creative and shared an appreciation for all the elements of the world around him.  I wanted to champion his life by adding more of what I thought he valued.  I thought two people together would make life twice as more enjoyable, interesting, and easier for both of us. I was wrong. It was always a one way relationship with me giving and with him receiving and eventually, no matter how unconditional a person is, it takes a toll because it becomes abusive and painful. For me, love is the spontaneous joy and passion that lives within me all the time that nourishes my soul and it is my soul that nourishes others unconditionally- not my ego. I truly don't expect anything in return. That's not to say that I will tolerate a negative husband who constantly disrespects and devalues me by putting selfish expectations on my love. When 'need' drives a person like my husband to seek pleasure and they identify themselves with that pleasure, then it becomes a poison in the brain. This is how addictions develop and addicts are very selfish people all the time.  Sure, we all like having our basic needs met but a healthy spiritual person recognizes that their needs are external and has nothing to do with their soul. Unconditional love has no reference.  If everyone could put their ego away, they would find themselves in a state of true love but that won't happen for a BPD'd person and rarely happens with most people.

Being married to a BPD husband was like being in a highly competitive tennis match all the time and I'm not competitive even though I enjoy a game of tennis.   I truly am a Darwinian failure and it took me a long time to figure out that my husband had chosen me as his competitor and threw me into the ring.   He kept score and everything in our marriage was conditional.  EVERYTHING! About once a week whenever I would ask him for his assistance with something,  I heard an entire ridiculous list of things he did to justify him being such a negligent husband. " I put my toothbrush in the holder, I picked up my pile of clothes, I emptied the trash, I put gas in the car last month, etc... "   He lived with a constant under current of resentment because everything he did for me or anyone else was attached to some condition and he perceived anything I did as an exchange for what he did. Our water heater caught on fire once and he wouldn't get up out the chair to call 9-11 because he felt entitled to force me to call, cut circuit breakers, spray the fire, etc... since he had gone to work that day which apparently, was enough to even the score. It was my turn.  His business acumen wasn't based on business principles.  He perceived working and getting paid as an ego-stroke and emotional reward because what he did for customers was filled with need for attention,approval and accolades. He has no desire to be respected for what he does.  He is looking for attention and admiration only and he really doesn't value his earnings.  He assumed that just because a customer hired him, they loved him and liked HIM ( he would tell me this using those adjectives to describe how they felt about him) and if they wanted anything changed from the original design, he interpreted that as meaning that they hated him and he would abruptly discard them,quit working for them.  My husband never had any internal sense of love for anything or anyone that drove him to do anything.  He is all about himself, his own needs and receiving pleasure.  He is an addict.  He is a narcissist.  

[apollotech]

Each to there own Blim I dont think your on the mark

they dont love like children or anyone else whoever

said cats or tigers was closest  imho

I get ur hurt but they are human beings. Soylent green is people!

I get what you're saying Blimblam, and I agree wholly with you about them being people. They are people and should be treated accordingly. And the fact that I STILL love (not romantically) my BPDexgf, STILL have compassion for her, STILL empathize with her, STILL pray for her, STILL want only the best for her are exactly the parts of me that set me apart from her. I don't believe that she is, nor many other BPD's, capable of saying what I just said and mean it... .unless it fills a need for her. I do not agree with the statements that we all are acting out of need(s). To me, that is the defining characteristic of a BPD's interactions with others, it's all need(s) based, and therefore, not genuine. I am also not buying that BPD's love as children love. Even children put others first much of the time: they share their toys, play with one another, etc. This is why I know that my BPDexgf never loved me. She simply could not be selfless; she could not put another person before her. She could never receive that blessing in life when you help someone because you simply want to, without any expectations of something in return. Unfortunately, I even saw this behavior from her when she interacted with her own children. I am sad for her.

[Leaving]

Each to there own Blim I dont think your on the mark

they dont love like children or anyone else whoever

said cats or tigers was closest  imho

I get ur hurt but they are human beings. Soylent green is people!

I get what you're saying Blimblam, and I agree wholly with you about them being people. They are people and should be treated accordingly. And the fact that I STILL love (not romantically) my BPDexgf, STILL have compassion for her, STILL empathize with her, STILL pray for her, STILL want only the best for her are exactly the parts of me that set me apart from her. I don't believe that she is, nor many other BPD's, capable of saying what I just said and mean it... .unless it fills a need for her. I do not agree with the statements that we all are acting out of need(s). To me, that is the defining characteristic of a BPD's interactions with others, it's all need(s) based, and therefore, not genuine. I am also not buying that BPD's love as children love. Even children put others first much of the time: they share their toys, play with one another, etc. This is why I know that my BPDexgf never loved me. She simply could not be selfless; she could not put another person before her. She could never receive that blessing in life when you help someone because you simply want to, without any expectations of something in return. Unfortunately, I even saw this behavior from her when she interacted with her own children. I am sad for her.

Apollo,

Good and valid points.  I think the remarks made about how BPD's love like children is in reference to how children - especially at certain developmental stages- are very egocentric until they establish their own autonomy.  BPD's seem to be stuck in that stage and never developed autonomy and are always struggling to find that and ground themselves in it.   I know what you mean though about those selfless children.  My niece and I were both very sensitive and nurturing children.  We have a 'leadership' personality too so, maybe that had something to do with why we were so concerned about others' needs.  Like you, I don't feel that I married my husband because of any need.  I truly wanted to share my life with him as a soul mate companion and thought we would compliment each others lives.  I expected us to lift each other up but that isn't what happened.  He set the bar so low that I couldn't even get under it. 

Yes they are people too but I don't feel empathy or any need to change or control my husband anymore. I think once he was diagnosed and I was able to know for certain that there truly was a pathological problem, I no longer felt the need to stay and manage our relationship.  I generally hate labels but in this case, the label really helped me to know what I was dealing with and make a decision about my future. Before that, I constantly second guessed myself and always wondered if there was some way we could make it work. 

The important thing is that we don't allow others or our painful experiences to harden our hearts in any way.  I know that despite what I've been through, I'm still as open and trusting to others as I always was.  Granted, in the future, I will pay attention to any red flags instead of doubting them but otherwise, I will always trust that people are being genuine until proven otherwise.  That's just the way I am. 

[Blimblam]

They love like a 2 year old loves.  :)urring my healing process I have had to remember age 2.  So I am speaking from the very Vivid recollections from that time.  The thing is that is how we also loved our exs that is why it is so intense.  We form a loving bond like a 2 year old to a parent with them and like the parent to the two year old.  

Our love for them had need based components and from many of the posts here about holding them to the standard of unconditional love then we make statements of how our love has conditions and such so basically we are saying we didn't love them either.  They were only a proxy through which we were able to love our own inner vulnerable child and thus narcissistic supply for us.  

What is being triggered is the angry child schemA and the punitive parent as an ego defence mechenism to hide from the pain and shame within as we project our own shadow on the pwBPD. This is why it feels so personal this is why many of us stayed hen things began to deteriorate.

So really what I am trying to say is the sentiments I see expressed in this thread are valid ones and coinsides with the hater stage of greiving. But it is that very mindset that will keep a part of us stuck the very part we were trying to recover by attaching to a pwBPD in the first place. 

[Turkish]

This thread has reached its post limit. Discussing how our Ex's loved us or not is a worthwhile topic. Please feel free to start a new topic.