when they want you to blame them?

[maxsterling]

How do you handle this - feels like a trap.

I'm down today because of last night's dysregulation.  Didn't sleep well, just own all day.  I'm sure you all can relate. 

Tonight I told her I had a down day, she asked if it had to do with last night.  I was honest, and said yes.  She apologized, then accused me of being mad at her.  I don't feel mad, just depressed.  But she wanted me to admit that i am angry at her.

This feels like a trap.  I wouldn't take the bait. 

What would have happened if I did say, "yes, I am mad at you." ?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Michelle27]

I would totally feel like it was a trap too.  I do think on some level she does want you to confirm that you are mad at her.   In a weird way, it would validate her feeling bad about last night.  But I would hesitate on answering that one honestly too.

[OffRoad]

But are you mad? Or are you just sad that it was another one of those nights? You say you were just depressed, yet then you ask if you should tell her you are mad. I think first you need to figure out what YOU are feeling. It's sometimes hard when your pwBPD was angry. I know when my H gets angry, I first think I am also angry, when in reality, I'm just sad that we ended up in separate corners.

[Sunfl0wer]

Well, if it were my uN/BPDex... .

Mad=bad (only happy is allowable feeling)=worthy of being belittled

So likely HE is mad but cannot express it.  Needs ME to be mad so he can see the feeling.  Then will trash me for being mad since he likely feels guilt for his feeling of mad and needs to cope.

Summary: I would get verbally punished (I would get sorted into the "bad guy" category)

[formflier]

  She apologized, then accused me of being mad at her.  I don't feel mad, just depressed.  

This... .is EXACTLY... .the kinda crap that I am trying to get rid of (right now) in my r/s. 

If this was me... I would focus more on her accusation... that me being mad at her.

Or... I would say... .I am mad AT YOU... .because you are suggesting my feelings... .vice asking about them.  If you want to talk about my feelings... .please ask... .I will be open and honest.  If you tell me my feelings... .the conversation is over.

This is slowly getting better in my r/s... .

2nd point:  Part of "keeping our side of the street clean".  Is "owning our feelings"... not projecting (might not be right word)

Anyway... .I'm wondering if saying what you are feeling... .without making someone else responsible... .is the right way to go.  Lead by example. 

"I am angry... .it's nobodies fault... .I will work with my emotions today... .and hope to have a better evening"

Thoughts?

Last note:  I'm no expert here... .this is area I am currently working through... .or should I say "stumbling around and trying to sort out"

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Idk, my experience with my uN/BPDex was always tricky when it came to me expressing emotions.

He would mirror emotions and this made my situation MORE complicated. 

For ex: if I got mad at my S for forgetting a chore. Instead of reasoning with me and offering another perspective, my ex would also get mad at my S.  He was all to happy to find reason to paint him black and he would get MORE angry than the situation called for.  Then I was left dealing with HIS emotion and trying to minimize it all to bring it back to planet earth.

Another Ex:  I'm nervous about something at work.  I spend time sharing this thinking it will help alleviate my feelings. He mirrors my nervousness about work.  He competes and instead of supporting me, is offering a story about HIM that competes with my story and shows greater nervousness at work, effectively overshadowing my original topic.  He actually will feel satisfied with himself as though he did something helpful by "removing" my issue from awareness.

Are others finding effective ways to have their BPD SO actually listen us and help us process our own emotions?

(Once though, I was sad upon learning my grandpa died.  He was able to be sad with me and this felt helpful)

[maxsterling]

I have resigned that my wife will never be emotionally supportive.  I get flashes at times, but it is short lived.  So, I clam up, and find other ways of dealing with it.

[Riverrat]

Max,

I am much newer at this than most, but I feel the same way. Any kind of emotional support from SO is very limited, or not even present.

She tells me that I don't share emotions or feelings with her, but when I do I am ignored or told to just grow up and deal with it. I feel so alone when I'm with her--my friends show much more support than my gf.

Worse yet, I know she projects her thoughts onto me about about why "I" can't be more open and understanding. After anaylisis with my T--it's just her blaming me again, and wishing she could open up to me with what's really on her mind.

Any attempt at emotion on her part ultimately ends up being an episode pf the "blame game"

Hang in there--I feel your pain!

[formflier]

I have resigned that my wife will never be emotionally supportive.  I get flashes at times, but it is short lived.  So, I clam up, and find other ways of dealing with it.

Most likely correct.  I do believe they can learn to no be "unsupportive"... .if that is a word.

So... I think I will eventually get to point where she doesn't tell me my emotions.  Most likely she will not regularly ask how I am feeling.

I think once you get going with regular P and T appts... .they can advise you better.

[Sunfl0wer]

I have resigned that my wife will never be emotionally supportive.  I get flashes at times, but it is short lived.  So, I clam up, and find other ways of dealing with it.

Yea, I didn't think anyone got any consistent emotional support, but I wondered if maybe I missed something, so was just checking.

I asked about it since you asked if you should tell her you are mad.  Then I thought, well why would we ever tell our feelings?  I mean I do sometimes, because I do, but I do it without expectation.  Or rather with low expectation for him to empathize, and high caution expecting an attack.  What does that ever result in?  So then I was thinking well, if you did share a feeling, certainly not much good could come of the feeling "mad" could it?

Then I just started thinking maybe I was lost in thought and missing something and second guessing myself.  Lol, ok, reality check, most of us do not get much, if any, emotional support.  Confirmed. :P

[maxsterling]

Exactly, Sunfl0wer.  Even if I was to tell her I was mad - what good would come from it?  And I truly am not "mad" in that sense.  I'm burnt out, frustrated, ready to be done with the conversation, but not "mad".  Mad implies I have some degree of negative will towards her.  I don't. 

I suppose if I told her exactly how I feel, and she could empathize, listen, and understand, it would help.  But that never has happened.  Telling her how I feel usually makes me feel worse in the long run, because she either invalidates my feelings, or later she does the same thing again and I feel worse because she did the same thing again after I told her how I felt.

[Sunfl0wer]

So, what DO you do?

It DOES sound like a trap.

Does it help to give a reply that neither confirms nor denies being mad?  "Such as, I'm feeling uneasy about our conversation." Then continue on quickly hoping she doesn't get back to it.

Or maybe switch topic quickly and get her interested in another aspect of the conversation? "Not sure about that, but I think you wanted to discuss xyz, right?"

Or maybe use that as your cue to exit the conversation? "That's an interesting thought, let me go spend some time thinking about that idea." Then get busy with something else quietly as though you are thinking.

Idk, just making stuff up, I haven't had long enough opportunity to practice the tools, but am still looking for ways to learn how to redirect and refocus difficult conversations and have them be as productive as possible, if possible.

[Oooohm]

"No... .not mad... .just frustrated and confused."

If you have read any of my other posts you will see I use a lot of (Forgive me... .I'm blanking on what they are called), animal and people stories not directly pointing "AT" anyone in particular.  It's "my thing"... .developed over the years as a way to try and get my point across to my wife without being accusatory or threatening. Here is one I've worked up... .

I have resigned that my wife will never be emotionally supportive.  I get flashes at times, but it is short lived.  So, I clam up, and find other ways of dealing with it.

"Color blind people can't see the difference between Red and Green... .  over the years of watching others drive, they have figured out--- "When the Top light is on I should stop... .When the bottom light is on I can go"  but if you try to explain to them "Red means stop and Green means go"  they get defensive because they don't have any idea what your talking about... .

[vortex of confusion]

Exactly, Sunfl0wer.  Even if I was to tell her I was mad - what good would come from it?  And I truly am not "mad" in that sense.  I'm burnt out, frustrated, ready to be done with the conversation, but not "mad".  Mad implies I have some degree of negative will towards her.  I don't. 

I suppose if I told her exactly how I feel, and she could empathize, listen, and understand, it would help.  But that never has happened.  Telling her how I feel usually makes me feel worse in the long run, because she either invalidates my feelings, or later she does the same thing again and I feel worse because she did the same thing again after I told her how I felt.

I am right there with you Max! The other night, I was feeling fed up so I told him, "I feel fed up." He responded with, "So, does that mean you want me to move out?" And he said it in that snotty, defensive way.

I walked away from that interaction feeling worse than if I had never said anything at all. He gets mad at me because I don't share my feelings with him yet when I try it goes from me being calm and trying to muddle my way through sharing to him taking over the conversation, making it about him, or taking what I said in directions that I never intended. I didn't even get a chance to tell him why I felt fed up or what I was fed up with. There was no opportunity to even try to discuss it with him.

[formflier]

"I feel fed up." He responded with, "So, does that mean you want me to move out?" And he said it in that snotty, defensive way.

If we would have responded with... "so what does that mean?"

How would that have sat with you?

[vortex of confusion]

If we would have responded with... "so what does that mean?"

How would that have sat with you?

That would have sat with me just fine. It would have given me a chance to share my frustrations, some of which had nothing to do with him and some did. He cut me off with a response that was ridiculous in my opinion. How does one go from me saying "I'm fed up." to him saying, "What do you want me to do, move out?"

I had a list of things that were on my mind, none of which involved him moving out. That statement made absolutely NO sense in the context of the situation.

[OffRoad]

VoC, Ah, but you see his behavior worked. Instead of dealing with what you were feeling, you walked away. He got what he wanted-to not have to deal with what you were feeling.

Hindsight is always 20/20. For a statement like "What do you want me to do, move out?", if I were well centered, I would respond. "I want you to ***add whatever I wanted him to do***. Can you do that?" This usually gets the response "Yes." But that means "Yes, I CAN do that." I have to follow up with "Great, WILL you do that, please?"

And again, I have to use a LOT of extra words. As an example, "I'm fed up." doesn't explain what the problem is. "I'm fed up with having to wash more laundry than I should because people keep dropping clean clothes on the floor instead of putting them back in the drawer." explains what the problem is.

But back to the issue at hand, once you (generic you) identify what your own feeling really is (mad, sad, glad or afraid or any variation thereof), then you can specify that " I am not mad, just sad that we were unable to communicate last night." " I am angry that I wasn't able to get support I needed. I am afraid I will never get the support I need."

I think one of the hardest things people with sowBPD have is laying their own feelings on the table, because it seems like we don't get any support. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't still lay them on the table. Let the pwBPD hear that we have feelings, too. Let them see that we can be frustrated and not fly off the handle. Let them hear how we can get angry and not yell and scream like a banshee. Lead by example, when you have the emotional fortitude to do so. We are entitled to our feelings, and our pwBPD needs to know that. (I have actually placed that as one of my boundaries: I get to feel what I feel. H can not like it, but that isn't going to change how I feel. My feelings belong to me.)

[vortex of confusion]

VoC, Ah, but you see his behavior worked. Instead of dealing with what you were feeling, you walked away. He got what he wanted-to not have to deal with what you were feeling.

I didn't walk away. I sat there and shut down. He did get what he wanted, which was to not listen to what I had to say.

Hindsight is always 20/20. For a statement like "What do you want me to do, move out?", if I were well centered, I would respond. "I want you to ***add whatever I wanted him to do***. Can you do that?" This usually gets the response "Yes." But that means "Yes, I CAN do that." I have to follow up with "Great, WILL you do that, please?"

That doesn't work. I can ask him for things as directly as possible and he will say yes and agree and then not follow through.

And again, I have to use a LOT of extra words. As an example, "I'm fed up." doesn't explain what the problem is. "I'm fed up with having to wash more laundry than I should because people keep dropping clean clothes on the floor instead of putting them back in the drawer." explains what the problem is.

I didn't get an opportunity to say anything beyond "I'm fed up." He cut me off before I had a chance to complete my sentence. That is a pretty common occurrence. When I call him on it, he will then turn it around and start berating himself.

[formflier]

We are entitled to our feelings, and our pwBPD needs to know that. (I have actually placed that as one of my boundaries: I get to feel what I feel. H can not like it, but that isn't going to change how I feel. My feelings belong to me.)

This is exactly the big issue I am pushing hard on in my r/s right now.  Making some progress in it.

I'm not going to let this drop.

There will be another battle over the next hill... .but for now... .I seem to be able to focus on issues... .move them to a better place... and keep them there.

Currently working on "my feelings are mine"... .and that I should make my own plans... (not have her be so controlling)... .that is quick version.

[OffRoad]

Hindsight is always 20/20. For a statement like "What do you want me to do, move out?", if I were well centered, I would respond. "I want you to ***add whatever I wanted him to do***. Can you do that?" This usually gets the response "Yes." But that means "Yes, I CAN do that." I have to follow up with "Great, WILL you do that, please?"

That doesn't work. I can ask him for things as directly as possible and he will say yes and agree and then not follow through.

Yeah, it stinks when that happens. But at least you said it. H and I instituted the "checklist" for actual physical tasks that are agreed on, but for behavior issues, that's always tricky.

And again, I have to use a LOT of extra words. As an example, "I'm fed up." doesn't explain what the problem is. "I'm fed up with having to wash more laundry than I should because people keep dropping clean clothes on the floor instead of putting them back in the drawer." explains what the problem is.

I didn't get an opportunity to say anything beyond "I'm fed up." He cut me off before I had a chance to complete my sentence. That is a pretty common occurrence. When I call him on it, he will then turn it around and start berating himself.

That stinks, too. A few years ago, H started doing that to me, and it drove me crazy.

Strangely enough, the last time H cut me off (the very last time-he hasn't done it since), I calmly said "Stop." He stopped. Then I said "I get to finish my sentence." He rolled his eyes. I said, in a very matter of fact voice, "Rolling your eyes is rude. I get to have an opinion. I get to express it. You are capable of the common courtesy of listening." He waited a few seconds, then said "You're right."  I was lucky, he couldn't admit he wasn't capable of common courtesy, so he had to listen. Your miles may vary.

[OffRoad]

We are entitled to our feelings, and our pwBPD needs to know that. (I have actually placed that as one of my boundaries: I get to feel what I feel. H can not like it, but that isn't going to change how I feel. My feelings belong to me.)

This is exactly the big issue I am pushing hard on in my r/s right now.  Making some progress in it.

I'm not going to let this drop.

There will be another battle over the next hill... .but for now... .I seem to be able to focus on issues... .move them to a better place... and keep them there.

Currently working on "my feelings are mine"... .and that I should make my own plans... (not have her be so controlling)... .that is quick version.

Yeah, this is the tough one because when my feelings are engaged, I'm more prone to being agitated, and I know good and well that in order for H to really hear me, I have to tell him what I am feeling in as calm a manner as I can manage.

As an aside, it's funny that you wanting to make your own plans is an issue you have with your W. H complained about me controlling him, when he is the one who is always throwing off everyone else's plans. I make my own plans, he wants to change them at the last minute, I say no I'm going with my plans so now I'm controlling him... .

[formflier]

Strangely enough, the last time H cut me off (the very last time-he hasn't done it since), I calmly said "Stop." He stopped. Then I said "I get to finish my sentence." He rolled his eyes. I said, in a very matter of fact voice, "Rolling your eyes is rude. I get to have an opinion. I get to express it. You are capable of the common courtesy of listening." He waited a few seconds, then said "You're right."  I was lucky, he couldn't admit he wasn't capable of common courtesy, so he had to listen. Your miles may vary.

Hmm... I like that line.  I may try it. 

We have had some luck with the "talking stick" or... even better... .and hourglass timer that takes about 2 minutes or so to run out.

We flip the timer over and the person gets to talk... .the other gets to listen.  Timer runs out... .it switches.

She usually is the one that demands this... .the realizes that she doesn't get to talk as much and gets p$ssed.  Hehe.

She accuses me of taking up all the conversation time... .when... .its really the opposite.

Back in the day... .I used to prove it with a timer and a log (this was before bpdfamily)... .that would send her into outer space... .dysreg bigtime.

[OffRoad]

Hmm... I like that line.  I may try it. 

We have had some luck with the "talking stick" or... even better... .and hourglass timer that takes about 2 minutes or so to run out.

We flip the timer over and the person gets to talk... .the other gets to listen.  Timer runs out... .it switches.

She usually is the one that demands this... .the realizes that she doesn't get to talk as much and gets p$ssed.  Hehe.

She accuses me of taking up all the conversation time... .when... .its really the opposite.

Back in the day... .I used to prove it with a timer and a log (this was before bpdfamily)... .that would send her into outer space... .dysreg bigtime.

The timer is a great idea. BBM:That is hilarious!

[Jackiec]

I am just jumping in here.

I think that validating your own feeling first is very valid and important point when communicating with someone else in general. I have certain friends in my circle who accepts me for rattling along in order to get to my point, but I know I cannot do that with my gf now. I need to know what I feel and why I feel that. Then formulate the sentence in my head which not start with "I feel ___ty" or "mad" or any negative statements when I want to tell her that I am feeling negative that moment.

Rather I will start with stating the facts firsts and tell her how I am feeling about that situation. It is very hard to do that in milliseconds,  but that is what I am trying for a few weeks. And what I am doing as well for the past few weeks is when she communicates her pain and unhappiness to me, I will sum it up between her rattling and ask her if I am correct. Even in the heat of the argument, I have tried to do it. Validating her as well as my own feeling is very demanding. It takes a lot of work and I am still stumbling working out this method, but at least I keep the issue that we are arguing about in context and keep her just focused at that issue without dragging too many things that happened zillion years ago.

When a difficult topic is asked, when I feel a trap coming over the past few weeks. I will take a second to think about it before answering. Especially with:"How do you feel?" I will state: Work in general had been tough and I am still dealing with my sleep problem. Not mentioning that this is because of her, but just state the facts, without pointing the finger. She will either work that out herself or she will asked me why. Both of us know the problem and I don't need to state that again, since it is not solving the issue at that time, only escalating.

She asked me that question Wednesday and I stated that. She didn't went haywire, but she said that she understands and that it must be difficult for me. She opened a bit up to me at that point about her sleeping issues that I know too well (had the brushes to show) and talked about her therapy, which she never was fond and willing to share with me before.

I lose a bit and I win a bit in that conversation. It is a tiny baby step I set using these methods. It had paid off for the last month. I am trying to prolong this as long as I can and hope to improve our relationship and getting closer again in the long run

[Grey Kitty]

We are entitled to our feelings, and our pwBPD needs to know that. (I have actually placed that as one of my boundaries: I get to feel what I feel. H can not like it, but that isn't going to change how I feel. My feelings belong to me.)

Keep in mind the limit of this one. Your feelings are yours. You are entitled to have them.

Sharing them is different than having them.

You are never required to share your feelings.

Nobody is required to listen when you share your feelings.


... .and that is where you get into trouble. You want to share your feelings. Especially with your partner when they are about your partner. But that doesn't mean that any good results will come from the sharing... .as Max noticed in the original post.

The longer I go and the more I learn, I realize that there are many true and valid things... .that I want to share or discuss... .that the person I want to share them with doesn't have the capacity to deal with. And I still want to... .but I know that I'll regret it when it is all done.

[OffRoad]

The longer I go and the more I learn, I realize that there are many true and valid things... .that I want to share or discuss... .that the person I want to share them with doesn't have the capacity to deal with. And I still want to... .but I know that I'll regret it when it is all done.

That may be true, and probably more so for some than others. There are ways to tell some pwBPD how you feel without blaming them, though. Because when a pwBPD asks if you are mad at them, and you say yes, you are blaming them for how you feel. But if you say that you are mad that you can't come up with a solution for the situation, or frustrated that you cannot communicate what you are thinking, or afraid that you can't convey how much they mean to you, there is no blame. And you still get to have all of your own feelings.

[vortex of confusion]

That may be true, and probably more so for some than others. There are ways to tell some pwBPD how you feel without blaming them, though. Because when a pwBPD asks if you are mad at them, and you say yes, you are blaming them for how you feel. But if you say that you are mad that you can't come up with a solution for the situation, or frustrated that you cannot communicate what you are thinking, or afraid that you can't convey how much they mean to you, there is no blame. And you still get to have all of your own feelings.

In the context of this thread, I don't think the issue is whether or not we are really blaming them. It is them wanting to be blamed. Part of it is their own shame. I think another part of it is the need for attention.

I can be mad at somebody without blaming them. My feelings are my responsibility. The difficult part is being able to take full responsibility for me feelings without letting my spouse try to invalidate them or tell me that they are wrong. Or, in some cases, (like FF refers to) try to tell me what I am feeling.

Even in instances where I have tried to think of non-blaming ways to express things, there is a tendency for my husband to try to step in. For example, tonight, I was trying to share with him about MY frustrations about MY behavior. I was trying to own my part in things. He did what he tends to do a lot of the time which is, "You wouldn't have done that if it weren't for me. If I hadn't done x, y, z, then you wouldn't have done what you did."

I can have all of my own feelings without communicating them to my partner. Sometimes, it is easier to own my feelings when I keep them to myself or share them with somebody other than my spouse.

[OffRoad]

Even in instances where I have tried to think of non-blaming ways to express things, there is a tendency for my husband to try to step in. For example, tonight, I was trying to share with him about MY frustrations about MY behavior. I was trying to own my part in things. He did what he tends to do a lot of the time which is, "You wouldn't have done that if it weren't for me. If I hadn't done x, y, z, then you wouldn't have done what you did."

Right here you got a win/win. You owned your part which opened your H up to recognizing where he had some part either in your frustration or in the interaction that caused your frustration. If you hadn't owned up to your own frustration and communicated it to him, he wouldn't have gotten the opportunity to own his own part in whatever happened.

I'm not saying every time we have a feeling we have to share it with our BPD partner. We wouldn't do that with non BPD friends, either. I am saying that we can shortchange our BPD partners when they know they've gone over the line and feel badly about what they did, but can't bring themselves to admit it outright. If we open up without blaming, it gives them the opportunity to say "Well, maybe I could have done something better, too." and clear their conscience.

I don't think Max's W wanted to be blamed. I think she felt bad about the previous night and wanted to find some way to acknowledge that she was aware that what she did affected him, and wanted reassurance that he still loved her.

[vortex of confusion]

Right here you got a win/win. You owned your part which opened your H up to recognizing where he had some part either in your frustration or in the interaction that caused your frustration. If you hadn't owned up to your own frustration and communicated it to him, he wouldn't have gotten the opportunity to own his own part in whatever happened.

I don't see it as a win/win. He was trying to take responsibility for my behavior. He was trying to take the blame. He was trying to make it all about HIM. What I do is on me. I can't control other people's behavior. I can only control how I respond to it.

I'm not saying every time we have a feeling we have to share it with our BPD partner. We wouldn't do that with non BPD friends, either. I am saying that we can shortchange our BPD partners when they know they've gone over the line and feel badly about what they did, but can't bring themselves to admit it outright. If we open up without blaming, it gives them the opportunity to say "Well, maybe I could have done something better, too." and clear their conscience.

Clearing ones conscience is one thing. What I am trying to describe and explain isn't clearing ones conscience. It feels like he is wanting to own my feelings and take responsibility for things that are NOT his responsibility.

I don't think Max's W wanted to be blamed. I think she felt bad about the previous night and wanted to find some way to acknowledge that she was aware that what she did affected him, and wanted reassurance that he still loved her.

I think that puts too much focus on Max's W. I think, at least speaking for myself, it doesn't do much good to try to figure out what it is the partner is thinking or feeling because it is subject to change. And, it overshadows the fact that I have my feelings and I want to be able to feel them without somebody else trying to make guesses about them or take responsibility for them. I think trying to analyze what another person might be thinking or feeling isn't helpful a lot of the times because it puts me in a position where I am doing the exact thing that I am so annoyed with my partner about, which is not giving me the space to feel my feelings without trying to second guess them, analyze them, dismiss them, or take them away from me.

[Grey Kitty]

For me, the win/win is when I share those feelings with the kind of friend who IS safe, who can listen, can validate my experience, might even offer some useful insight about them.

Instead of sharing them with somebody who will do something (ultimately) ugly and invalidating in response.

Posting about them in these forums is one of those win/win situations for me.