Can't figure out if it's love or hate when they go silent

[ShadowIntheNight]

I'm a bit confused about some comments I've read on another thread here and wonder if anyone else may have some insight.

The comments refer to if you don't hear from your BPDex, then that means they are too triggered by you for their shame so rather than face that emotional pain, they don't contact you. Also posters have said that if your BPDex hadn't loved you so much they wouldn't have to stay away from you because that too triggers their shame. In other words, we are to take it that their staying away may mean that they did love us and deeply, and that thinking about us causes them to feel shame for their actions, so instead they stay away rather than face those feelings.

My uBPDex was married 10 years to her exH. They have two kids who are young teens now. She told me on numerous occassions the 9.5 years we were together that if she had never had kids with her exH she would never speak to him again. She hates him. She is not covering up some deep seated desire and love, I mean she hates him. And deeply, to the point of even saying had they stayed married he would be dead and she would be in jail. Where the two kids would be was never discussed... .

It is of course a moot point, as they have the kids and will have to have contact for at least the next 6 years. But there is no reason for me to not believe that she would never have called him if they did not share children as she had said. Her words seems to fly in the face of the theory that if they aren't contacting us it's because of deep love that leads to shame tha they don't want to feel anymore. I still believe my uBPDexgf is punishing me for saying the things I said to her after she treated me the way she did. I know she has contacted other exs in the past and kept contact with them, in many instances to use them for her own selfish needs. But so far all I've received are hang up calls, and those seemed to have faded away too.

Thoughts? Clarifications? Thanks

[dobie]

Mine is a form of punishment as well as the fact she could not care less .

She did talk to me early on mostly to arrange stuff and she sent me one or two messages .

The supreme arrogance of the woman is evident in that because I sent her a few choice texts while drunk after the hell she caused she has decided (ever the victim) to block ignore and discard me totally .

[JRT]

There might be some other element or condition at work with that situation that only BPD.

Some of the things that I have read about here, otherwise, often contradict (or maybe are competing characteristics). I too have come to understand that the more profound their love was and your value to them, then the more completely you are cut off and given the silent treatment (mine is going beyond 6 months now). But at the same time, many have indicated that cutting off and the silent treatment is a form of punishment and abuse which are not consistent with the former. Is it possible for a BPD sufferer to care deeply WHILE directing abuse and punishment? That wouldn't make sense even within a BPD context... .

[Invictus01]

I think it is tough to tell. Remember, Cluster B includes BPD, sociopaths, narcs. Often a person could have multiple disorders. So, I think it really depends on exactly what disordered was triggered and why. So, I think it is really really tough to tell what you are dealing with me... .but in the end, does it really matter?

[Heldfast]

I wonder about this too as mine says she has deleted my number from her phone, but has not blocked me on facebook, on skype, etc. I have tried, even today, to establish some form of contact (now going on 4 months with only contact being a phone call on January 31). She does not reply, but oh well. It may be punishment and control of you, it may be them with someone else, it may be you out of sight, out of mind, it may be their survival mechanism dealing with the shame. There are some variations on the theme.

Interesting article about it here: www.borderlinepersonality.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/07/borderline-pe-2.html

[ShadowIntheNight]

I think it is tough to tell. Remember, Cluster B includes BPD, sociopaths, narcs. Often a person could have multiple disorders. So, I think it really depends on exactly what disordered was triggered and why. So, I think it is really really tough to tell what you are dealing with me... .but in the end, does it really matter?

In the end, lots of things don't matter. In the end we all just die so why wonder about anything? So maybe it doesn't matter, but it matters to me and perhaps to other who still have deep pain when they can't pin a cause as to why their lives have been disrupted so terrible after years or decades. It matters for me because I care about why I was so mistreated when I can't lay finger to anything other than "she may be ill." It matters to me because I have to figure out a different life after a decade and I have no idea what that life will even begin to look like. It matters to me because I can't begin to imagine someone speaking to me in a romantic way ever again and not believe that they are probably lying to me. So no, maybe it doesn't matter in some people's lives. But it matters in mine.

[cosmonaut]

Good question.  The answer is rather complex, and that's because BPD is very complex.  In many ways it is high contradictory - it is, after all, characterized by highly disordered thinking.

The most likely explanation of why your ex has such contempt for her ex-husband is due to splitting.  Splitting is a very primitive defense mechanism in which a person is seen as all either all good or all bad with nothing in between.   Often when a relationship ends, a pwBPD will "paint black" their ex (i.e. split them all bad) as a way to suppress the deep pain that they are feeling about the loss of the relationship.   Not every pwBPD does this after a relationship, but it is common.  Splitting also has the effect of allowing the new attachment to be the knight in shining armor who has come to rescue them from the pain and trauma of their former relationship.  This is a powerful tool, and many people respond strongly to being so idealized.  Such, the attachment is more readily made.   That's not to say that your ex's ex-husband didn't have his faults and maybe even wasn't a very good person, but the most likely explanation is that there is splitting going on.

One of the primary hallmarks of BPD is having extremely sensitive, overwhelming emotions.   These are often negative and can be excruciatingly painful for a pwBPD when they occur, which is regularly.   Much of the rest of the disorder stems from attempts to deal with this tremendous emotional pain.   Marsha Lineham, the founder of DBT therapy and a well respected authority on BPD, has liked BPD to having third degree emotional burns to the point that everything hurts - even air currents or the rubbing of a sheet is agony.  For a pwBPD even routine emotions are experienced in the most extreme way.  pwBPD long above anything to have someone that will love them and "complete" them.  Everyone wants and needs love, but for a pwBPD this is a matter of their very existence.  The reasons for this are highly complex, and frankly more than I fully understand about the disorder.  It delves deep into the field of object relations theory and other psychological research that I just don't have the background to fully understand.  However, the root reason involves the failure of a pwBPD to have developed an autonomous "self".   This is believed to be the result of an invalidating environment in very early life, as well as certain unknown genetic factors.  One thing is clear is that it requires a person that is extremely emotionally sensitive and these emotions are not heard or not addressed early in life.  :)ue to this underdeveloped sense of "self" pwBPD feel lost and adrift in life - as if they are empty - when the do not have an attachment to cling to.  This attachment is necessary to allow the pwBPD to borrow a self of "self" and thus they hope to "complete" them.  When an attachment is absent, it is a terrifying and confusing time for a pwBPD.

So, how does all of this relate to being discarded and erased by a BPD partner?  One of the most triggering events for a pwBPD is emotional intimacy and the greater the intimacy, the greater the trigger.   This is believed to lie in the deep fear of abandonment that is another hallmark of the disorder.  As mentioned above, pwBPD believe that they must have an attachment to survive and the loss of an attachment is a terror like you and I may not be able to fully imagine.  pwBPD idolize those who are able to provide this attachment, however, in much the way that a small child idolized a parent.   Initially, pwBPD believe they have finally found the person who will "complete" them and care for them and provide the love, nurturing, and particularly the emotional soothing that they are unable to provide for themselves.

It is a contentious issue as to whether or not pwBPD actually love their partners or if they are simply using their partners - if only on a deeply subconscious level.  Regardless, it is clear, that they are not sociopaths, and they are not using their partner maliciously or even consciously.  My personal belief is that pwBPD truly do love some of their partners, at least in the best way that they know how.  It is an immature love and a disordered love, but I believe it is a sincere love - at least at the time.   I don't know that every partner is loved like this, but some certainly are.  Reading the experiences of pwBPD and how they describe certain partners this is a very common theme.  They do love and they love very deeply - completely even - in an idolizing way, but due to the disorder it is simply not sustainable.

Besides abandonment pwBPD experience a phenomenon known as enmeshment.  Enmeshment is a feeling of becoming lost in the relationship and of a blurring of one's self with one's partner.   Due to the underdeveloped sense of "self" that characterizes BPD, this triggers terrifying annihilation fears in the pwBPD.   This causes them to pull away and to run.   It is this oscillation between the fear of abandonment and the fear of enmeshment that causes the classic BPD push/pull cycle.

Ok, that's a lot of information, and here's where it all comes together.  None of these fears would be triggered without emotional intimacy.  The fear of abandonment and the fear or enmeshment are not, and would not be triggered, except in relationships with significant emotional closeness.  This is why pwBPD are sometimes able to interact perfectly fine with coworkers or other acquaintances that they are not emotionally close with.   Unfortunately for us partners of a pwBPD, the more the intimacy, the greater the trigger.  So, you see it is only because you WERE cared about and you WERE loved that this disorder was ever triggered at all.  If you hadn't been cared about, you never would have been so completely terrifying to lose - so much so that the very thought of it was agonizing and terrifying beyond all measure.   Often pwBPD are so afraid that they will be abandoned, even if it is only perceived abandonment (and pwBPD are convinced that they are so defective and broken that they always will be), the thought is so overwhelmingly painful for them, that they leave the relationship first.   It is sort of like fearing the anticipation of some awful event, and the more time that passes the greater the anxiety of expecting it until you can't take it anymore and just have to get it over with.  That's how it feels for a pwBPD and why they sometimes run.  Once we have become a trigger, the very thought of us is agonizingly painful, and so we are suppressed and ignored with the array of primitive coping mechanisms employed in BPD.

I know that's an awful lot of information, but I hope it helps.   It has helped me to have much more understanding and perspective about what happened to me and why.

[ShadowIntheNight]

I wonder about this too as mine says she has deleted my number from her phone, but has not blocked me on facebook, on skype, etc. I have tried, even today, to establish some form of contact (now going on 4 months with only contact being a phone call on January 31). She does not reply, but oh well. It may be punishment and control of you, it may be them with someone else, it may be you out of sight, out of mind, it may be their survival mechanism dealing with the shame. There are some variations on the theme.

Interesting article about it here: www.borderlinepersonality.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/07/borderline-pe-2.html

Held thanks so much for this link. There is so much stuff on the Internet that it's hard to cull the good from the bad or just keep going around in circles. This has been the best explanation of silent treatment I have read. Thanks again.

[Invictus01]

I think it is tough to tell. Remember, Cluster B includes BPD, sociopaths, narcs. Often a person could have multiple disorders. So, I think it really depends on exactly what disordered was triggered and why. So, I think it is really really tough to tell what you are dealing with me... .but in the end, does it really matter?

In the end, lots of things don't matter. In the end we all just die so why wonder about anything? So maybe it doesn't matter, but it matters to me and perhaps to other who still have deep pain when they can't pin a cause as to why their lives have been disrupted so terrible after years or decades. It matters for me because I care about why I was so mistreated when I can't lay finger to anything other than "she may be ill." It matters to me because I have to figure out a different life after a decade and I have no idea what that life will even begin to look like. It matters to me because I can't begin to imagine someone speaking to me in a romantic way ever again and not believe that they are probably lying to me. So no, maybe it doesn't matter in some people's lives. But it matters in mine.

You will never find out, that is the problem. It might have been because your gf loved you too much. It might have been because she hated you a lot. You will never find this out from her. And in the end, the result is the same - she is gone. The same goes for mine. Would I love to find out what exactly happen? Absolutely. Will I be able to? No. Does it matter if she loved me or hated me if I am leaving anyway? If she was standing in front of me right now, begging me to give her another chance, I would have to use every damn ounce of my will power to walk away, I would probably have tears running down my cheeks, but there is no chance I will let her do this to me again, and I know she will. I love her... .but I can't do this to myself again. One way or another, you practically never get closure from a PD person. You get closure from yourself. And then you figure out where and how to go from there.

[JRT]

Good question.  The answer is rather complex, and that's because BPD is very complex.  In many ways it is high contradictory - it is, after all, characterized by highly disordered thinking.

The most likely explanation of why your ex has such contempt for her ex-husband is due to splitting.  Splitting is a very primitive defense mechanism in which a person is seen as all either all good or all bad with nothing in between.   Often when a relationship ends, a pwBPD will "paint black" their ex (i.e. split them all bad) as a way to suppress the deep pain that they are feeling about the loss of the relationship.   Not every pwBPD does this after a relationship, but it is common.  Splitting also has the effect of allowing the new attachment to be the knight in shining armor who has come to rescue them from the pain and trauma of their former relationship.  This is a powerful tool, and many people respond strongly to being so idealized.  Such, the attachment is more readily made.   That's not to say that your ex's ex-husband didn't have his faults and maybe even wasn't a very good person, but the most likely explanation is that there is splitting going on.

One of the primary hallmarks of BPD is having extremely sensitive, overwhelming emotions.   These are often negative and can be excruciatingly painful for a pwBPD when they occur, which is regularly.   Much of the rest of the disorder stems from attempts to deal with this tremendous emotional pain.   Marsha Lineham, the founder of DBT therapy and a well respected authority on BPD, has liked BPD to having third degree emotional burns to the point that everything hurts - even air currents or the rubbing of a sheet is agony.  For a pwBPD even routine emotions are experienced in the most extreme way.  pwBPD long above anything to have someone that will love them and "complete" them.  Everyone wants and needs love, but for a pwBPD this is a matter of their very existence.  The reasons for this are highly complex, and frankly more than I fully understand about the disorder.  It delves deep into the field of object relations theory and other psychological research that I just don't have the background to fully understand.  However, the root reason involves the failure of a pwBPD to have developed an autonomous "self".   This is believed to be the result of an invalidating environment in very early life, as well as certain unknown genetic factors.  One thing is clear is that it requires a person that is extremely emotionally sensitive and these emotions are not heard or not addressed early in life.  :)ue to this underdeveloped sense of "self" pwBPD feel lost and adrift in life - as if they are empty - when the do not have an attachment to cling to.  This attachment is necessary to allow the pwBPD to borrow a self of "self" and thus they hope to "complete" them.  When an attachment is absent, it is a terrifying and confusing time for a pwBPD.

So, how does all of this relate to being discarded and erased by a BPD partner?  One of the most triggering events for a pwBPD is emotional intimacy and the greater the intimacy, the greater the trigger.   This is believed to lie in the deep fear of abandonment that is another hallmark of the disorder.  As mentioned above, pwBPD believe that they must have an attachment to survive and the loss of an attachment is a terror like you and I may not be able to fully imagine.  pwBPD idolize those who are able to provide this attachment, however, in much the way that a small child idolized a parent.   Initially, pwBPD believe they have finally found the person who will "complete" them and care for them and provide the love, nurturing, and particularly the emotional soothing that they are unable to provide for themselves.

It is a contentious issue as to whether or not pwBPD actually love their partners or if they are simply using their partners - if only on a deeply subconscious level.  Regardless, it is clear, that they are not sociopaths, and they are not using their partner maliciously or even consciously.  My personal belief is that pwBPD truly do love some of their partners, at least in the best way that they know how.  It is an immature love and a disordered love, but I believe it is a sincere love - at least at the time.   I don't know that every partner is loved like this, but some certainly are.  Reading the experiences of pwBPD and how they describe certain partners this is a very common theme.  They do love and they love very deeply - completely even - in an idolizing way, but due to the disorder it is simply not sustainable.

Besides abandonment pwBPD experience a phenomenon known as enmeshment.  Enmeshment is a feeling of becoming lost in the relationship and of a blurring of one's self with one's partner.   Due to the underdeveloped sense of "self" that characterizes BPD, this triggers terrifying annihilation fears in the pwBPD.   This causes them to pull away and to run.   It is this oscillation between the fear of abandonment and the fear of enmeshment that causes the classic BPD push/pull cycle.

Ok, that's a lot of information, and here's where it all comes together.  None of these fears would be triggered without emotional intimacy.  The fear of abandonment and the fear or enmeshment are not, and would not be triggered, except in relationships with significant emotional closeness.  This is why pwBPD are sometimes able to interact perfectly fine with coworkers or other acquaintances that they are not emotionally close with.   Unfortunately for us partners of a pwBPD, the more the intimacy, the greater the trigger.  So, you see it is only because you WERE cared about and you WERE loved that this disorder was ever triggered at all.  If you hadn't been cared about, you never would have been so completely terrifying to lose - so much so that the very thought of it was agonizing and terrifying beyond all measure.   Often pwBPD are so afraid that they will be abandoned, even if it is only perceived abandonment (and pwBPD are convinced that they are so defective and broken that they always will be), the thought is so overwhelmingly painful for them, that they leave the relationship first.   It is sort of like fearing the anticipation of some awful event, and the more time that passes the greater the anxiety of expecting it until you can't take it anymore and just have to get it over with.  That's how it feels for a pwBPD and why they sometimes run.  Once we have become a trigger, the very thought of us is agonizingly painful, and so we are suppressed and ignored with the array of primitive coping mechanisms employed in BPD.

I know that's an awful lot of information, but I hope it helps.   It has helped me to have much more understanding and perspective about what happened to me and why.

I can't help but to read this and feel profoundly sorry for my ex.

[cosmonaut]

I can't help but to read this and feel profoundly sorry for my ex.

BPD is a tragic disorder.  There are no winners, only losers.  Much as we are suffering here (and we are), our partners are suffering very much too.

[cosmonaut]

Oh, one small mistake: fear of enmeshment should be fear of engulfment.  Sorry for that mistake.  I can't seem to edit the previous post at this point, so correcting it here.

[LimboFL]

Cosmonaut, thank you so much for putting all of that together for us. You answered every question that has ever been asked for those of us who truly loved our ex's, very close to the depth that we hope our ex's loved us, even if theirs was deeply complicated. This should be mandatory reading for everyone coming to this board in pain.

As JRT stated, it is impossible not to be profoundly saddened and impacted when reading this. Many of us knew some of this information, which is why we held on for so long, but when it is all laid out as it has been done, so eloquently, by cosmonaut, it takes our understanding to a new level.

I firmly believe in it all, that those of us who were in deep relationships were loved and that, in the long run, we ended up being triggers. Probably the hardest part of it all, that they were feeling the same thing we were but couldn't cope.

What a bloody mess this all is.

[ThanksForPlaying]

I think it is tough to tell. Remember, Cluster B includes BPD, sociopaths, narcs. Often a person could have multiple disorders. So, I think it really depends on exactly what disordered was triggered and why. So, I think it is really really tough to tell what you are dealing with me... .but in the end, does it really matter?

So no, maybe it doesn't matter in some people's lives. But it matters in mine.

Saying "it doesn't matter" doesn't mean we don't care. The point is just that it shouldn't matter to your future course of action whether they hated you or loved you. If they loved you and painted you black, would you try to make others love you less? Of course not. If they hated you, does that mean you need to try harder to be loved? No way.

Just saying that it doesn't matter the exact reason. Basing your future self on how they felt is a recipe for disaster.

[Invictus01]

One of the primary hallmarks of BPD is having extremely sensitive, overwhelming emotions.   These are often negative and can be excruciatingly painful for a pwBPD when they occur, which is regularly.   Much of the rest of the disorder stems from attempts to deal with this tremendous emotional pain.   Marsha Lineham, the founder of DBT therapy and a well respected authority on BPD, has liked BPD to having third degree emotional burns to the point that everything hurts - even air currents or the rubbing of a sheet is agony.  For a pwBPD even routine emotions are experienced in the most extreme way.  pwBPD long above anything to have someone that will love them and "complete" them.  Everyone wants and needs love, but for a pwBPD this is a matter of their very existence.  The reasons for this are highly complex, and frankly more than I fully understand about the disorder.  It delves deep into the field of object relations theory and other psychological research that I just don't have the background to fully understand.  However, the root reason involves the failure of a pwBPD to have developed an autonomous "self".   This is believed to be the result of an invalidating environment in very early life, as well as certain unknown genetic factors.  One thing is clear is that it requires a person that is extremely emotionally sensitive and these emotions are not heard or not addressed early in life.  :)ue to this underdeveloped sense of "self" pwBPD feel lost and adrift in life - as if they are empty - when the do not have an attachment to cling to.  This attachment is necessary to allow the pwBPD to borrow a self of "self" and thus they hope to "complete" them.  When an attachment is absent, it is a terrifying and confusing time for a pwBPD.

During the last two weeks of our relationship, when I felt like something was completely off with her and us, she went out again with friends and got drunk again. The next day I text'd her with a "Soo how bad does your head hurt this morning?" smarta$$ text. To which she completely seriously replied - "My whole life hurts". I thought she was kidding... .but now I think I have an idea what she meant... .

[LimboFL]

Shadow, just read and re read cosmonauts incredible post. It soothed me, as I hope it has you. I have never questioned that my ex loved me, never. The truly poignant reminder in cosmonauts post was the fact that our ex's likely felt that they were being lost in the relationship. The natural reaction to two people coming together as one is unity and strength, trust and the feeling of trust that a partner will be there for us, we don't worry about losing ourselves. It makes perfect sense.

Of course, it matters and of course we want to all know if they loved us. This doesn't determine how we proceed but rather it allows us to feel like we weren't just nothing, that we weren't just another "toy" in their lives. We weren't. Cosmonauts post makes that abundantly clear.

We will never get the answers that we truly want and there is no question that the worst thing that we can do is to put our progress on hold in the hope that these answers will ever come, but rest assured that most of us here understand the desire to try and find them anyway we can. The key is to search while healing too.

Your heart was ripped out. We are all here because of that, but we all had different journeys. What, again is critical is that while we will continue to ponder and wonder, we have no other choice but to fight forward and heal. That is the imperative.

[cosmonaut]

Of course, it matters and of course we want to all know if they loved us. This doesn't determine how we proceed but rather it allows us to feel like we weren't just nothing, that we weren't just another "toy" in their lives. We weren't. Cosmonauts post makes that abundantly clear.

Thank you for your kind words, Limbo.  I'm glad that my post was able to help a bit.

I sincerely believe that we were special to our partners.  I am convinced they loved us as best they could.  I can't prove that, but I believe it.  I have had several people try to convince me that my ex didn't truly love me, because of the way she has discarded me.   I truly believe, however, from all that I have learned about BPD, that it was exactly because she loved me that I have been so completely cut off.  I suspect that is true for most of us whose exes have simply disappeared.

[ShadowIntheNight]

Of course, it matters and of course we want to all know if they loved us. This doesn't determine how we proceed but rather it allows us to feel like we weren't just nothing, that we weren't just another "toy" in their lives. We weren't. Cosmonauts post makes that abundantly clear.

Thank you for your kind words, Limbo.  I'm glad that my post was able to help a bit.

I sincerely believe that we were special to our partners.  I am convinced they loved us as best they could.  I can't prove that, but I believe it.  I have had several people try to convince me that my ex didn't truly love me, because of the way she has discarded me.   I truly believe, however, from all that I have learned about BPD, that it was exactly because she loved me that I have been so completely cut off.  I suspect that is true for most of us whose exes have simply disappeared.

I have had people say the same to me. Two of my friends told me that they believed she used me for the 10 years she knew me. Her behavior has made me feel that way many times over these last several months. And that's a hard pill to swallow, to think that I was in love with someone who used me for 10 years and that she did it for 10 years! My rational mind cannot come to terms that such a thing is even possible out of either one of us. But in my weakest, awfulest moments, that's what I fear most: that there was no love and I was just duped.

I plan on cutting your comment into a file on my iPad so I can review it several times. There's so much detailed info there. Thanks again for taking the time to create that Cosmo. It is quite helpful.

[LimboFL]

Cosmonaut, we are speaking the same language. The last people I am going to listen to are people who know very little or nothing about BPD. Some have a right to be bitter and anyone who hasn't been where we have or studied as much as we have, doesn't have a clue what our partners were about. They go straight to the default position and to be honest, any "friend" who would say that we were being used for these long relationships, clearly isn't a friend because telling someone that they just wasted ## years being used is not really thinking about how much that would hurt us. Beyond that, it's insulting.

We lived and breathed with our partners for a very long time. I may have overlooked red flags but I wasn't bloody comatose. She loved me, I have absolutely no doubt, not because I am so grief stricken that any thought otherwise would crush me, but because she proved it. No one and I mean no one can act that well as to BS me enough for me to spend 4 years with them. 3-6 months maybe, not 4 or 10 years. It's beyond ridiculous, as is the notion that our partners could hold up a mask that long. As I have said my ex's greatest compliment was that she said that she felt safe with me. She felt emotionally safe with me and as a result I saw a lot of the real person, I saw into her heart and she did relinquish that power to me, as best she could, even though she pulled it back out of fear.

Again, cosmo's post sheds light on everything. It is a mind bender to think that they ran because their love was so strong, that they lost their identifies. I have no illusions that there were other life factors that were at play, just as there are in regular relationships. But in all of this discovery, it isn't only red flags that pop up, but also the triggers that set them off in different directions.

It's important to note that I am not convinced there was love to simply pacify myself or soothe my soul. I firmly believe it. This is the hardest part, that a disorder managed to tear two people who loved each other apart.

[cosmonaut]

I feel exactly the same, Limbo.  The friends that are saying these about my ex not truly loving me mean well.  They do.  They want me to "move on" and "find someone new".  But, you are right: they just don't understand.  They don't understand about BPD and they don't understand how sincerely I love my ex.  How much I meant it when I told her I would always love her no matter what.  Those weren't just words.

Yep, you are right, we were there and no one else was.  We are the best authority on what happened in our relationship.  I also saw the sincerity in my ex's eyes.  Heard the emotion in her voice.  Wiped away her tears.  Saw her face light up.  Felt her tremble.  You can't fake these things.  You just can't.  This can only come from the heart.  I am convinced they loved us.  Was it a disordered love?  Sure.  But a real love.  Our exes meant it with all of their hearts in the best capacity they had.  If you read stories from pwBPD, while anecdotal, they often say something to the effect about how they may have their flaws but "you will never find anyone that will love you as much as we will".   And I actually believe them.  I feel like pwBPD love completely.  They idolize us.  They want with all of their being for things to work out, for us to be able to soothe them and complete them, and to be able to live happily ever after.   That may be disordered, but it doesn't make it fake.

There is an older poster here that went by the username of 2010.  He/she has so many great posts - they're something of a legend here.   Anyway, 2010 wrote that initially the relationship with a pwBPD feels holy - as if a holy anointment.  And that speaks to me so much.  I did feel that way.  I thought that my ex and I were among the most lucky, most blessed, absolute richest people on Earth.  We were able to find True Love.  We were two of the lucky ones.  It felt like it could only have come from the hand of God.  Until we broke up, I believed that will all of my heart and soul.  Part of me still sort of does, honestly.   And if these relationships were stable, if they were healthy, they really WOULD be the most ideal of relationships.  Two people who adore each other beyond compare, who fuse together into one flesh, who are made to walk the Earth with each other as Adam was to Eve.  If only it could last.  But the disorder doesn't allow for that.  No matter how much we wish otherwise.  Sooner or later, the relationship is doomed, because sooner or later, it is inevitable that our partner will be triggered.  It is profound tragedy.  Paradise lost.

Anyway, I really agree with you Limbo.  I know how hard this experience is and how much it hurts.  We can take heart, though, that we truly loved someone deeply damaged and they truly loved us too as best as they could.

[JRT]

 2010 wrote that initially the relationship with a pwBPD feels holy - as if a holy anointment.  And that speaks to me so much.  I did feel that way.  I thought that my ex and I were among the most lucky, most blessed, absolute richest people on Earth.  We were able to find True Love.  We were two of the lucky ones.  It felt like it could only have come from the hand of God.  [/quote]
Wow... .this really struck a chord with me. I'm a church goer and Sundays, I had switched from asking God for this and that to thanking Him for blessing me in the way that he did with my exBPDfiance. It was that deeply that I felt that she was chosen FOR me by a higher power. That it was so strong the He and only He could have been responsible for putting us together. I really felt this way and this was by no stretch at all my fist rodeo. Its among the reasons that make recovering that much more difficult.

[downwhim]

"There is an older poster here that went by the username of 2010.  He/she has so many great posts - they're something of a legend here.   Anyway, 2010 wrote that initially the relationship with a pwBPD feels holy - as if a holy anointment.  And that speaks to me so much.  I did feel that way.  I thought that my ex and I were among the most lucky, most blessed, absolute richest people on Earth.  We were able to find True Love.  We were two of the lucky ones.  It felt like it could only have come from the hand of God.  Until we broke up, I believed that will all of my heart and soul.  Part of me still sort of does, honestly.   And if these relationships were stable, if they were healthy, they really WOULD be the most ideal of relationships.  Two people who adore each other beyond compare, who fuse together into one flesh, who are made to walk the Earth with each other as Adam was to Eve.  If only it could last.  But the disorder doesn't allow for that.  No matter how much we wish otherwise.  Sooner or later, the relationship is doomed, because sooner or later, it is inevitable that our partner will be triggered.  It is profound tragedy.  Paradise lost."

Cosmonaut, thank you for that beautiful post that brought so much clarity. The above brought back memories. I use to lay in bed with my exBPD fiancé and tell him how lucky we were. So many people do not get to feel this kind of love. To me it was the most I could ever give to anyone and I truly felt the same from him. I remember when I was married a rather religious friend of mine said, "when we make love it is like God is there, it is so beautiful." I was married at the time and had no clue what she was talking about. It was not until I met my ex and was several months into the relationship that I had this experience. From the depth of my soul I loved him. I know I will move on and move forward in life but I also know I will never, ever love a man like I did and do love him.

I have trashed my ex many times as I have tried to heal here on these boards. I have never stated the real reason I stayed 8 years. It was because I experienced love, never felt this way before even in a 22 year marriage - never. So, if this is my only shot at it in life, as screwed up as it may seem, I got the opportunity to really truly love and for me once is better than never.

[Broken heart forever]

I was informed by my pwBPD that the reason he ran and became silent is that he was still actively in love with me! If he was actively in love with me... .wouldn't you do everything in your power to work it out with me?

[Invictus01]

I was informed by my pwBPD that the reason he ran and became silent is that he was still actively in love with me! If he was actively in love with me... .wouldn't you do everything in your power to work it out with me?

Unfortunately, that's not how a BPD mind works... .

[Broken heart forever]

Invictus,  so, was the actively "in love with me" a lie?

[downwhim]

Invictus, it was not a lie. My ex said, "I loved you all those 8 years and I love you now." He then proceed within 24 hours to send me an email ending the r/s. Go figure... .they are different than us nons. I think they love too much and need to bolt. Engulfment overrules their need to be with us.

"I was informed by my pwBPD that the reason he ran and became silent is that he was still actively in love with me! If he was actively in love with me... .wouldn't you do everything in your power to work it out with me?

I think their feelings of love are something they are afraid of. I know with my ex and myself we were very close. Physically all the time, holding hands, sat together instead of across the table, talked 4 or 5 times a day and spent almost every night together. I wondered, is he as lonely as me? But from what I have read here, I am sure he is busy with a replacement and moved on.

All sad stuff, hard to get over and move on. A process that takes longer than I ever imagined.

[lm911]

cosmonaut

Thank you very much! Every single word that you have written is correct and it is right in the target!

I suggest moderators to put these posts in na a topic where they are visible to more people!

[JPH]

Love. Hate. Either way they're doing you (us) a favor.

[dobie]

My x fiancé is "self righteousness indignation" a bit of fear/shame and the fact she no longer needs me .

[JohnLove]

cosmonaut

Thank you very much! Every single word that you have written is correct and it is right in the target!

I suggest moderators to put these posts in na a topic where they are visible to more people!

I second this.

Cosmonaut, you have done a simply splendid job of what so many posters on here coming out of broken relationships have sought to consolidate and reconcile their feelings when coming out of their FOG in regard to where their love "went".

Just the clarity you have given to the simple, but highly controversial question, whether a pwBPD can love or not is highly commendable.

I will tell you with the utmost certainty that you have been more helpful in promoting true understanding to the suffering than many so called experts that have medical qualifications.

Here's to you mate... .