Do I subconsciously know she had BPD?

[Maternus]

Hi raisins,

I can only talk about me. I was in a relationship/marriage with a non for more than 20 years before I met my uBPDex. Although it was the longest (and in hindsight the best) relationship of my life, I always thought that there was something missing. I missed the drama, the roller-coaster ride, I missed the dynamics of my FOO and the intensity and drama I witnessed in my parents relationships as a child and teenager. I had unhealthy expectations what a good relationship looks like, I even was even not able to see it, while I was in such a relationship. I met my ex-wife when we were teenagers and although she was very young, she had strong boundaries in the first years of our relationship. It was the total opposite to a BPD-relationship. She said "I love you" the first time when dated for 6 months, the first time we had sex was after a year into the relationship. We moved in together after 5 years, got married after 10 years. No breakups and recycles. It was a healthy and stable relationship but I always thought, there is something wrong - and there was something wrong: Me. My false fantasies. I ruined the best thing I had in my life for the love of a woman, who entered my life as fast as she dumped me. Lesson learned.   

[raisins3142]

Part of it for me is trying to optimize for too many things or the wrong things as far as priorities.

I've always prioritized physical attraction and mental stimulation (intelligence, humor, and interesting conversation) more than mental/emotional health.  So, if I found a pretty and very smart woman, I was willing to overlook too much on the other end. 

[Invictus01]

Yep, the problem is that one day you might meet a truly healthy person that is super well suited for you.

The realization on both ends would be awesome!

Now, how does that differ from BPD mirroring/idealization?  I'm sure it does.  And I think I could spot it now, but prior to knowing about BPD, it would be tough.

I reject the subtext that healthy folks all have some jedi sense for each other, and because we don't have this then it indicates a lack of health.

Also, a subtext (or underlying assumption) is that because we are all here talking on the internet about a common problem and are hurt that it is unreasonable that someone was very taken with us and thought we were great.  As if "well if someone was gushing over you, then it should've been obvious they don't know their butt from their elbow!"  Having said that, I agree that there is a point where it is just too much, like mine telling me she loved me 3 weeks in.  But, it was sort of a ramp up, we were getting along so well I thought that saying that 3 weeks in seemed soon, but not unreasonably so at the time.

It hurts me to think about it because even after 5 months I'm still far from over it but what the hell... .

A couple of days before I met my ex I was on a date with somebody else. It was painful, lots of silent breaks, little in common (met her on Tinder, I know, classy). We both decided that we didn't feel too much of a connection. And then I went out of town and met this girl on a Saturday between a wedding and a reception. We both felt a spark, so we met up on Sunday (I was in town till Monday morning) and THAT date made pretty much all my other dates I've ever had pale in comparison. Just an insane 10 hour Sunday Funday, getting to know each other, spontaneously meeting with my friends and family, a ton in common (she never knew me, I never knew her, how could she mirror me right off the bat?) kind of a date that makes you go "Is it really happening?" Kind of a date that both people think back at and go "THAT.WAS.AWESOME!" There were plenty of  things about her that you just can't fake, BPD or not. You can't fake intelligence, you can't fake education, you can't fake success in your career, you can't fake determination in life (and that's what she idolized me for too). I want that in a woman and she has it. She just wasn't your typical 25 year old, she was way more mature (or at least acted very very well like it) than some 30+ year olds I have met. A woman can love bomb me into a nuclear winter and idolize me more than all gods combined but if she doesn't have something that just gets me going, it won't work. Don't want to sound like a self absorbed jacka$$ but I do get fair amount of interest from women. This one had that something that got me going. And from everything I was seeing we were on the same page... .until just like that she was gone. Of course there were things that would make me wonder... .but they seemed to be nothing compared to those other things that attracted me to her... .or so I thought until I educated myself on BPD and how a whole lot of nothings can add up to one big fat personality disorder. Going forward, I'll have to put everything the microscope.

[Skip]

My conclusion to all this is that I'm almost certainly a victim of my own superficiality. I like pretty women who are probably out of my league. The only ones that reciprocate that attraction are borderline disordered ones.

... .might a potential cure be another relationship with a pwBPD?   The reason why we are so devastated in the aftermath of the relationship is that we fully bought into the vision of the future they were selling us. If we had another relationship with a different pwBPD, might that not dislodge our current SO from our thoughts whilst we are free to enjoy the new idealization phase, protected by the knowledge that 'we won't get fooled again'?

I think that some of us may be wired in such a way that to truly get over something, we may be compelled to replay it in order to 'get it right next time'.

Hey Franny'

Earlier in the thread you say "I can accept that the psychiatric community might opine that low self-esteem might have prompted me to stay (when really I was just bloody confused!) but I did not purposely seek out a disordered individual."  You also say that you know believe that you have had multiple borderline relationships.

Yet you have a few posts talking about seeking and engaging in a relationship with a person with BPD as a cure for your grief over you last relationship.

Can you play this out more clearly?  What will you look for to let you know you are onto a person w ith a PD?  What type of relationship will you engage in (how intense, how long, marriage or dump when _____)?  Will you act differently/think differently?  What do you hope to get out of in the near term?  Long term?

Can you explain the cure... .how this will work to make you a better, healthy man?  Less superficial?

[FannyB]

My conclusion to all this is that I'm almost certainly a victim of my own superficiality. I like pretty women who are probably out of my league. The only ones that reciprocate that attraction are borderline disordered ones.

... .might a potential cure be another relationship with a pwBPD?   The reason why we are so devastated in the aftermath of the relationship is that we fully bought into the vision of the future they were selling us. If we had another relationship with a different pwBPD, might that not dislodge our current SO from our thoughts whilst we are free to enjoy the new idealization phase, protected by the knowledge that 'we won't get fooled again'?

I think that some of us may be wired in such a way that to truly get over something, we may be compelled to replay it in order to 'get it right next time'.

Hey Franny'

Earlier in the thread you say "I can accept that the psychiatric community might opine that low self-esteem might have prompted me to stay (when really I was just bloody confused!) but I did not purposely seek out a disordered individual."  You also say that you know believe that you have had multiple borderline relationships.

Yet you have a few posts talking about seeking and engaging in a relationship with a person with BPD as a cure for your grief over you last relationship.

Can you play this out more clearly?  What will you look for to let you know you are onto a person w ith a PD?  What type of relationship will you engage in (how intense, how long, marriage or dump when _____)?  Will you act differently/think differently?  What do you hope to get out of in the near term?  Long term?

Can you explain the cure... .how this will work to make you a better, healthy man?  Less superficial?

Hi Skip

First thing to note is that I am unlikely to date again for a long time - if at all.  Even this time I wasn't looking for anybody - just got hit by that 'bolt from the blue'. That would be my first red flag if I felt that way again.  Secondly, I would be wary of any woman who thought I was that great again just for being normal. I got that adulation much too easily in retrospect.  Thirdly any talk of marriage, living together, and 'forever' in the first month would also get my attention next time. 

Lastly, and probably most importantly, I'm not entirely sure I want a LTR. I'm not unhappy nor lonely - so why gamble on it? I think my recent relationship has heightened my cynacism somewhat but I was pretty much thinking that anyway until my 'dream woman' came along.

With regards to my 'cure' post, I think I put sufficient caveats in there to make it clear it was a topic for debate rather than a 'prescription' to fix things. Weight of opinion was heavily against it - and rightly so.

Fanny

[Skip]

With regards to my 'cure' post, I think I put sufficient caveats in there to make it clear it was a topic for debate rather than a 'prescription' to fix things. Weight of opinion was heavily against it - and rightly so.

Do you believe in these things or were you just tossing hypotheticals out?

Are you wired in such a way that to truly get over something, we may be compelled to replay it in order to 'get it right next time?

[FannyB]

Do you believe in these things or were you just tossing hypotheticals out?

Are you wired in such a way that to truly get over something, we may be compelled to replay it in order to 'get it right next time?

Skip

I do believe that some people are perfectionists - or simply bloody-minded - and that they do act in the way I described in my question to Valet.  I was merely seeking clarity on what he was getting at with his post and apologise if I gave any other impression.


Fanny

[cosmonaut]

I think that some of us may be wired in such a way that to truly get over something, we may be compelled to replay it in order to 'get it right next time'.

Fanny, I think this could be an extremely important insight.  What you are describing sounds like a repetition compulsion.  This is a psychological phenomenon in which people get stuck in loops re-enacting past traumas.  Often this is done in the hope that this time things will resolve themselves - this time it will work out well.

I have dealt with this personally.  It's something my T and I have been exploring.  I grew up with an NPD mother.  That had a tremendous impact on my understanding of relationships and what love is.  I often felt that I was invisible and I often was made to feel that I didn't matter.  I learned that love has to be earned.  In my adult life, I have recognized that I have been involved in some very unequal relationships.  I have been exploring why that might be, and I do think that my T is on to something that this is a repetition compulsion from childhood.  That my finding these women who are so emotionally unavailable in many way, I am hoping that this time I will finally win their love.  This time I will get it right and get the love that I never really got from my mother.  What you are describing sounds very similar to this pattern.

What do you think about that idea?  Does this sound like it might be applicable to you?  I have noticed that you tend to not want to really open up here on a deep level, and I know it's hard to do so.  It can feel that we are exposing ourselves in a very vulnerable way.  This is a safe place, though, and we are all anonymous.  We are all here to support one another, even if at times we challenge one another much as our Ts challenge us about some of the false/unhealthy beliefs we have.  I really do think this is a very important insight you are expressing.  This is something core, and you really do need to find out what's there.  That's where true healing will come from.  Do you think you are ready to look at that?  If not here, would you be willing to work on it with your T?

[FannyB]

Cosmonaut


That was the point I was seeking to clarify with Valet - albeit more hamfistedly! 

I know I am bloody-minded and part of the rationalization process for me is to put things right so 'I'm happy with me'.  I tend to be very hard on myself if I think I could have done something better. I did re-cycle with my ex and played it differently second time around. I had the validation I needed that there was nothing I could do to make it work. That's why my posts  are different to many others on the leaving board - I feel fine at the moment but now and again certain questions nag at me which I have to work through.

Maybe I should just post on one of the other boards when I feel the compulsion to question something? Please believe me that I have no compulsion to re-live my trauma - my ex-wife would have happily obliged if that was the case! 

Thanks again for your insight as this is a really interesting angle which I hadn't considered fully.


Fanny

[Pretty Woman]

Fanny,

   I can relate to your story. I was love bombed so early I look back at old emails and we were saying I love you not even a month in.

I've dated emotionally healthy people before so I can see the difference but at the time I did not realize how quick I fell into this person.

At 2mo the mask cracked and I remember the first time she got disproportionately angry at me. It was in my kitchen and she called me an a hole.

That did not sit well with me and my gut told me no one should talk to me like that. I actually told her I want my key back and she ran from my house got in the car and drove off with the key.

A 41yo woman.

She came back sobbing and I felt bad but I admit when she drive off I said aloud, what a nutcase? What is this?

I was dumbfounded.

There were so many inappropriate things that followed like tonguing a friend in front of me while out drinking... .just to see what it felt like.

Leaving me for two months to run off to an ex in Minnesota... .threatening a RO on me only to call me over 50 times on the way back to our state.

I should have trusted my gut instinct. What ensued was 3yrs of loneliness and disappointment. I was 37 then and wanting kids.

Now I'm almost 40.

I really sacrificed myself in this relationship and I only have me to blame for that. I became her caregiver and put my needs aside. We weren't having sex anymore but this last year we never fought. It was a good year. I guess that's the only thing I can carry away from this.

[zipline]

I fell for my ex because of her intelligence, beauty, accomplishments, political views, cultural perspective, and the way she seemed to embrace life.  I wasn't looking for a long-term relationship at the time, but when I met her I felt like a relationship with her could be the one. We met via Tinder and I used to call her my Tinder Surprise because meeting her (someone so amazing) was completely unexpected.  It was a carpe diem moment for me and I thought "you only live once, go for it" and I did. The fantasy of meeting THE woman for me was intoxicating. I believed I was totally in love and she did too. 

So, no, I had no idea this is what would happen and that the little arguments and conflicts that we had early on would escalate and it all would end in such misery.

[Mike-X]

Hi all

I'm new to this forum - so a bit of background. 18 months back I started dating a woman I met through work. Quickly fell for her and her me. Lots of early 'I love you's' and talk of marriage - and plenty of evidence of a pattern of failed relationships, after 3-4 months, in her past. I'm a wary sort of guy who considers himself to be mentally tough, so played things coy regarding taking the relationship to the next stage (moving in etc). However, at the very point in time I truly believed in her and lowered my defenses, all hell broke loose: Distancing, triangulation, gaslighting, dissociation. A mind*%!* of epic proportions!   For the first time in my life I resorted to the internet to explain my confusion and stumbled across BPD. Basically, learning that none of this was my fault was the only thing that kept me from plunging into depression. I've subsequently come to the conclusion that many past girlfriends had BPD traits - but they didn't last long enough to hook me like this one!

My question is though, how can I be attracted to BPD females when in the initial stages they don't display these characteristics? I wasn't looking for crazy - but I got it anyway! 

Blimblam

Totally agree that that was how she made me feel during the honeymoon period. However the initial attraction, aside from her good looks, was a lot to do with how together she seemed. I actually thought that I would be too flaky for her in that I have my own attachment issues! She was a high achiever who appeared almost too perfect in every way. Still, you live and learn as they say. 

I am sorry that you are struggling with this. "Quickly" falling in love seems to be common on the boards. What were you getting out of the relationship early on? Have you considered your own possible boundary, attachment, and esteem issues?

[FannyB]

I am sorry that you are struggling with this. "Quickly" falling in love seems to be common on the boards. What were you getting out of the relationship early on? Have you considered your own possible boundary, attachment, and esteem issues?

Hi Mike-X

Retrospectively I can see that I idealised her as much as she did me.  I was coming out of a mild depression at the time and the relationship re-invigorated me. In that respect, I was probably her perfect boyfriend as we fed each others frenzy - so to speak.  I knew her for several months before we dated and there was nothing 'off' about her. Work colleagues validated that we seemed a well-matched couple.  In the thread I was questioning whether there was something 'subliminal' that attracted me to her as there really was a 'wow' moment first time I clapped eyes on her.

Fanny

[cj488]

I was utterly enamored with her sweet, child-like personality and her incredible looks, bikini model, face of an angel, perhaps the most feminine woman I'd ever met in the Western hemisphere. I simply wanted her, and she wanted me. She was seemingly the most together young woman I'd met in years. She was the one who accelerated things to 200kph, shouting I love you's out to the world, that she wanted to be my partner, my inspiration, my wife. We put each other on pedestals, made the rash-rush decision to be together, and headed off into the sunset hand in hand... .truly a fairy tale romance.  

Once we actually committed ourselves, the BPD behaviors suddenly appeared, as if from nowhere. Now my radar is miles out there, but at the time I don't think I could've recognized the signs in advance. She knew all along she had serious issues, but covered them so beautifully that she could be the perfect spy, or an Oscar-winning actress. I'm convinced no man would've been able to say no. Fortunately, I have good boundaries (thanks to The Mankind Project), so when it descended into the typical BPD nightmare, I stepped back quickly to reassess and try to understand. This triggered her abandonment hyper-fears, she painted me black, and then disappeared, capturing another guy within days. I was destroyed for six months. She repeated the same with him, and within two months he too looked like a shell of his former self. She danced away, seemingly unscathed. BPD is truly a horrific emotional disturbance. Almost like a contagious zombie-madness running rampage over the world... .

[Mike-X]

I am sorry that you are struggling with this. "Quickly" falling in love seems to be common on the boards. What were you getting out of the relationship early on? Have you considered your own possible boundary, attachment, and esteem issues?

Hi Mike-X

Retrospectively I can see that I idealised her as much as she did me.  I was coming out of a mild depression at the time and the relationship re-invigorated me. In that respect, I was probably her perfect boyfriend as we fed each others frenzy - so to speak.  I knew her for several months before we dated and there was nothing 'off' about her. Work colleagues validated that we seemed a well-matched couple.  In the thread I was questioning whether there was something 'subliminal' that attracted me to her as there really was a 'wow' moment first time I clapped eyes on her.

Fanny

Thanks for the reply. Can you elaborate on what you're thinking about by something 'subliminal'?

[FannyB]

Thanks for the reply. Can you elaborate on what you're thinking about by something 'subliminal'?

I know lots of people refer to 'chemistry' when they meet their partner e.g. 'She was a nice girl but there was nothing there' or 'We just clicked'.  I'm starting to wonder if the 'chemistry' I feel may actually be a subliminal warning sign that something is off which I misinterpret as a deep connection!   If I ever find myself feeling like this again I will feel very wary as opposed to feeling compelled  to act on it. That's not to say I wouldn't progress the relationship - just that there would be boundaries  in place that would need to be adhered to before I became emotionally committed.


Cheers



Fanny

[zipline]

I'm starting to wonder if the 'chemistry' I feel may actually be a subliminal warning sign that something is off which I misinterpret as a deep connection! 

I'm working with my therapist on the idea that I am in fact highly attracted to such dysfunctional people because they resemble my dysfunctional relationships with my parents. Ugh.

[Skip]

I'm starting to wonder if the 'chemistry' I feel may actually be a subliminal warning sign that something is off which I misinterpret as a deep connection!   If I ever find myself feeling like this again I will feel very wary as opposed to feeling compelled  to act on it.

If we lived in the wild and concluded that if a fruit tastes good, it might be a warning sign that it is poison, we would not enjoy life.

I see these types of thoughts on the New Relationships board or in lists of 100 red flags to avoid... .I think that if we don't dissect and learn what happened using basic psychology tools, we are left with what some call spurious logic - the generator of urban myths.

Cum hoc ergo propter hoc or Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc is interesting.

A train always passes after the railroad crossing alarm sounds and the gates come down. Therefore the railroad crossing alarm causes the train to pass.

I wore my purple sweater and my team won against all the odds. Therefore I am going to wear that sweater to every game.

Most divorced couples go to see a therapist before they separate. Therefore going to see a therapist will increase the chances that you will get a divorce.

Since I stopped smoking we haven't had an argument. Who knew the answer could have been so simple?

This website makes the point with graphs: www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

The root of why you have had 3 relationships with people with BPD traits will be simple and direct when you finally find it - but it takes some real digging to get there.  When we find it, we know.

That's not to say I wouldn't progress the relationship - just that there would be boundaries  in place that would need to be adhered to before I became emotionally committed.

If you had a do-over with your ex, what boundaries were not adhered to in the beginning and by whom?  

How should you have handled it?

[FannyB]

The root of why you have had 3 relationships with people with BPD traits will be simple and direct when you finally find it - but it takes some real digging to get there.  When we find it, we know.

Quote from: FannyB on June 25, 2015, 12:46:25 AM

That's not to say I wouldn't progress the relationship - just that there would be boundaries  in place that would need to be adhered to before I became emotionally committed.

If you had a do-over with your ex, what boundaries were not adhered to in the beginning and by whom? 

How should you have handled it?

Hi Skip

Apologies for the delay in responding - been doing a lot of reading and thinking lately. Haven't come to a conclusion on the origin of the problem yet, but feel I am getting closer to it.

With regard to boundaries - the big one was communication. I like to resolve issues and 'get things on track' - my ex preferred the silent treatment. I did raise this with her fairly early on and she said that it was just her way of handling conflict i.e. very minor issues! I wasn't aware that this was a form of emotional abuse, but I am now. I should have stood my ground at this point but allowed myself to be 'love-bombed' all over again.   Now that I understand a lot more than I did then, I simply couldn't tolerate this in any future relationship as it makes dispute resolution impossible.



Fanny