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How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
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Author Topic: Did your BPDx really believe you Loved Them?  (Read 1030 times)
dagwoodbowser
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« on: May 18, 2015, 12:47:37 PM »

I've posted often about my strong opinion about the importance and value of Actions vs. Words. I was raised by a single working mother and she instilled many values onto me most importantly that when in a conversation less talking is better and that if i was going to say I was going to do something that I should be prepared to walk the talk. Hence, be at work, my own child, friends I stuck to the same philosophy. Unfortunately, this dogma of mine didnt seem to work with my BPD X. She constantly needed to Hear reassurance and I was wanting to see more Actions.

There were so many, many things be it the tiniest gesture or a grand scale remodling and after a while I realized I wasnt going to get any pats on the back. On the other hand, if I walked up to her by surprise, looked her in the eyes and told her I Loved her she was mine... .at least for a handful of hours. I am also now being a Monday Morning Quarterback and realizing the amount of inner shame and self loathing she must have had as there were times I really dont think she believed I truly Loved her.

The constant reassuance: "Why do you Love me?" or ":)o you really Love Me?" Sometimes I would wake at night to see her quitely crying. I would ask what was wrong and she would utter in sobs that "no one liked her." As her comforter I would hold her and tell her that I Loved her. That would pacify her until the morning rush when the kids had to be rushed out the door and we would start the day. So often as Non's I see the postings where We Ask: "Was it real, did he/she really Love me?" or "Was what they said about Loving us Real?"

For me, the better question is ":)id she/he(BPDX) ever truly believe that we Loved them?

Anyone agree or disagree.

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« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2015, 01:05:16 PM »

My ex knew that I loved her immensely.

It was the reason she broke up with me.

'I see how much you love me and do for me, and I just can't give it back. I can't love you like you love me.'

I think what she really saw was my level of codependency. She just didn't have the vocabulary to express an obvious truth: that in order for me to be happy, I had to be making her happy.

So, her insights were shortsighted, an avoidance of the problem, and I had no idea what was going wrong. I did everything I could. Sometimes everything is too much.
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dagwoodbowser
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« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2015, 02:09:51 PM »

Excerpt
I think what she really saw was my level of codependency. She just didn't have the vocabulary to express an obvious truth: that in order for me to be happy, I had to be making her happy.

So, her insights were shortsighted, an avoidance of the problem, and I had no idea what was going wrong. I did everything I could. Sometimes everything is too much.

valet: Totally agree. We (as a fellow COD myself) set a standard of giving and sacrificing and likely because when we press that Lever and there's no Reward (ThankYou, You're so sweet, Ahhw) or Recognition we keep stomping on the Lever trying to out do the last great deed. I dont think she knew I was Co-Dependent. Truth be known I found out during the last 2 months of the relationship... .too little too late.
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Olivia_D
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« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2015, 02:29:09 PM »

He got angry when I told him that I loved him.  Then, he believed that I truly did love him.  Then, he accused me of being a phony, a liar.  Then, he told me that he knew that I was honestly trying to love him.   Then, he said he was numb and was unable to sustain an adult relationship.  Then, he said he was incapable of love.  Then, he said he needed to find himself.  Then, he said that I had been hurt enough in this lifetime and not to let the fear of others define who I am as a person.  Then, he disappeared.  Now, he is making contact with (business) people in my life to twist / distort things in an extremely odd way.  Funny thing is is that the only people that met him were business people who didn't really know about our relationship.  We never once went anywhere where he was introduced or vice versa.  The entire thing is like a Twi-Light episode.
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dagwoodbowser
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« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2015, 02:46:55 PM »

Excerpt
He got angry when I told him that I loved him.  Then, he believed that I truly did love him.  Then, he accused me of being a phony, a liar.  Then, he told me that he knew that I was honestly trying to love him.   Then, he said he was numb and was unable to sustain an adult relationship.  Then, he said he was incapable of love.  Then, he said he needed to find himself.  Then, he said that I had been hurt enough in this lifetime and not to let the fear of others define who I am as a person.  Then, he disappeared.

Olivia: You touched upon what I think is something common in some BPD's, maybe not all of them. Be it the Core inner shame of rejections as children sensing or feeling they are Unloved or not worthy of Love? Maybe it's the guilt or shame of the acts and deeds that they do behind our backs? I could never quite figure out what to do to have my X feel validated at times. Then again she couldn't or didn't know what I really needed because until I found out I was CoD I wasnt aware that I needed to be validated for my "good deeds" by at least being patted on the head and told "Good Boy" or given a biscuit as a treat.
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zundertowz
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« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2015, 03:01:05 PM »

My ex knew I loved her but she also knew when I was falling out of love with her and going threw the motions and was exhausted by her... .thats when things went from bad to insane... .much like dagwood I needed to at least be appreciated for all the good I did rather than being beaten down daily.  Even when I was the best boyfriend I could be there was still fits of rage and temper tantrums... .they just were spaced out.  Keeping up with making her feel loved was impossible for me... .it was a 24/7 job that I didnt have the energy for.
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« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2015, 05:42:16 PM »

I guess mine was seeking reassurance masked as he doubted it which of course I would get him positive reassurance without his ego coming out and requesting it, if that makes sense. But, at some point his doubt was more like paranoia. I had never been remotely inconsistent with my actions or words and didn't know the basis for the complete mistrust. When he first withdrew, I just figured he needed to sort it out in the man cave. The more distant he became, the colder he grew. It was really confusing as he was battling himself. I became really exhausted.  Being Co-D makes patting my head and a positive gesture go a long way--I guess it is that positive feedback for following a crumb trail. The crumbs were practical non-existent but he wanted my ear and support.  I gave up on a romantic r/so and offered friendship but I guess that was a shade of gray he couldn't handle. Hurtful.
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« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2015, 06:36:58 PM »

My exBPDbf knew I loved him very much but I think he felt that he didn't deserve it. During our conversation the day after I left I was crying and told him 'I love you'. He looked at me with tears in his eyes and said 'I know you do.' He hadn't been able to tell me he loved me for a few weeks before, which is when he started his emotional cheating with one of his exes.

He wanted me to hate him because it would have made my discard easier for him. He actually told me that, that if I hated him it would be easier. So beyond messed up.
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gomez_addams
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« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2015, 06:53:46 PM »

For me, the better question is ":)id she/he(BPDX) ever truly believe that we Loved them?

Anyone agree or disagree.

I try to avoid figuring out what she is/was actually thinking... .

But she has told me numerous times that she doesn't feel loved, and that she doesn't believe me when I tell her I love her.

I never know if she's telling me what she truly thinks/feels, or if she's saying something to try to manipulate my behavior.  All in all, I no longer care.  The sooner this divorce can be finished, the better. 

Gomez
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« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2015, 07:05:48 PM »

mine once said to me ive never been anyones love of there life... .i find this quote heartbreaking and one of the few times she was honest about her feelings... .but she kinda did it to herself... .35 gorgeous and believes everyone is out to get her... .if she wasnt so dangerous I would feel bad for her.
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dagwoodbowser
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« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2015, 07:24:21 PM »

Excerpt
Keeping up with making her feel loved was impossible for me... .it was a 24/7 job that I didnt have the energy for.
Excerpt

mine once said to me ive never been anyones love of there life... .i find this quote heartbreaking

zunder: It is exhausting... .one day the best bf in the galaxy, next day whale poop. She once told me I was love of her life... .

Excerpt
My exBPDbf knew I loved him very much but I think he felt that he didn't deserve it. During our conversation the day after I left I was crying and told him 'I love you'. He looked at me with tears in his eyes and said 'I know you do.' He hadn't been able to tell me he loved me for a few weeks before, which is when he started his emotional cheating with one of his exes.

Star: I know the feeling. Those darn X's that just would never go away. Hopefully you can decide if you will be a part of his past or not?

Excerpt
But she has told me numerous times that she doesn't feel loved, and that she doesn't believe me when I tell her I love her.

Gomez: Somewhere, somehow she probably did. Mine said many of the same things when she was going through a self loath period.

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myself
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« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2015, 09:34:07 PM »

Yes. Because I did so obviously love her. The realness of that drew her in and drove her away. Because true intimacy is one of the main triggers. In the end she couldn't trust me, or herself with me. Making excuses instead of connecting. Because the disorder made her doubt the more positive facts, even though I believe deep down she believed in them very much.
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dobie
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« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2015, 10:53:32 PM »

Not sure she has distrust and paranoia so always thought perhaps I only cared for other reasons

I told her shortly before we BU "you know I love you don't you" and she said yes people have told me . I honestly believe she believes that statment . looking back when her mother or friends commented how much I love her that for her was validation I did .


The question I'm asking is did it matter to her ? I think it mattered more in her world  if she loved me .

Sometimes when we fought and she was going to leave I'd tell her how much I loved her because she couldent understand why I was upset at the thought of her going

That may have been "poor me mode" or genuine bafflement that I did

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« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2015, 11:54:07 PM »

Without a doubt she knew/believed/felt that I loved her. I think she felt the same way about me, as much as she could. That love is ultimately what tore us apart.
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dagwoodbowser
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« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2015, 12:53:16 AM »

Excerpt
Yes. Because I did so obviously love her. The realness of that drew her in and drove her away. Because true intimacy is one of the main triggers. In the end she couldn't trust me, or herself with me.

myself: So your saying that regardless if she ever stated it the fact that she was triggered in a sense shows you she loved you?

Excerpt
Not sure she has distrust and paranoia so always thought perhaps I only cared for other reasons

I told her shortly before we BU "you know I love you don't you" and she said yes people have told me . I honestly believe she believes that statment . looking back when her mother or friends commented how much I love her that for her was validation I did .

dobie: Thus far what I'm understanding based on the responses is that if you had an emotional connection and bond with her the intensity was too much for her to bear just like my X. I'm sure she did care and Love you much.

Excerpt
Without a doubt she knew/believed/felt that I loved her. I think she felt the same way about me, as much as she could. That love is ultimately what tore us apart.

apollo: This is all very profound for me, these responses. What it's telling me is if there was a strong emotional reaction from our BPDx, be it rage, intensity or moments of deep infatuation that in it of itself created the end of most the relationships here?
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« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2015, 01:07:02 AM »

dagwood i hate to be a stickler for language in a thread like this, but it depends on what you mean by "truly"  .

its my opinion that if you "truly" believe someone loves you, you dont constantly and consistently fear their abandonment of you, and need to test them in that regard.

id get calls/texts most nights from my ex when she was feeling lonely. there was nothing i could say or do to "truly" soothe her. im sure i helped a couple of times maybe. we all get lonely. as a response, as ive read on this site, we often conjure up images of loved ones to soothe our loneliness. a pwBPD struggles with the ability to do this as you know. which brings me to my conclusion.

to answer your question literally, i am sure there are times when my ex "truly" believed i "truly" loved her. that feeling/knowledge, whatever you want to call it, was not stable. therefore i hesitate to truly use the word "truly".
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« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2015, 01:22:29 AM »

I believe she did, then resented and disrespected me for it. 

Resented me, because with my love came expectations and a commitment she couldn’t match.

Disrespected me because, how could I be so dumb or desperate as to love her?

No win ~
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dobie
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« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2015, 03:52:01 AM »

I believe she did, then resented and disrespected me for it.  

Resented me, because with my love came expectations and a commitment she couldn’t match.

Disrespected me because, how could I be so dumb or desperate as to love her?

No win ~

This ^^^

I honestly don't know anything about her or us anymore only that once she could see my commitment and the constant hurdles she made me jump she started to detach . I also started to detach the last year or so in some ways

That she could not go from infatuation to anything deeper that any weakness or vulnerability I showed was resented and disgusted by her

All I know for sure about my x is that she is emotionally arrested selfish and self centred  ... .a user, manipulative , a pro victim and pretty much not a nice person overall a flimsy reed with no true self

A chamelon .

Her father is an abusive pos I guess thats her role model for love that's what she feels love is .

I don't think she cared at all really about me or how I felt the whole r/s was about her my loving her was inconsequential in a way

As long as she was feeling what she was and I was there for her needs that's all that counts .

Tbh that's been my experience with most of my gfs BPD or otherwise love is a selfish fantasy IMO

She left because her hero was no longer infalable she was still unhappy and could find no other reasons so it must be me  and god forgive she would have to make a commitment and give rather than take .

Parasite

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Loveofhislife
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« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2015, 04:24:24 AM »

My ex knew I loved her but she also knew when I was falling out of love with her and going threw the motions and was exhausted by her... .thats when things went from bad to insane... .much like dagwood I needed to at least be appreciated for all the good I did rather than being beaten down daily.  Even when I was the best boyfriend I could be there was still fits of rage and temper tantrums... .they just were spaced out.  Keeping up with making her feel loved was impossible for me... .it was a 24/7 job that I didnt have the energy for.

I feel that I could have written this but with this one exception. I couldn't get away; no matter how hard I tried: literally and figuratively. If I left to be with a friend for an evening or a work related event or a visit to see my brother; there was raging and threats and acting out, etc. Why didn't I leave? I'm not sure; it was physically, mentally, and financially killing me. I think he knew that. And in some way, he did me a great favor, and he left: exactly a year to the day when we had become a committed couple. I don't think the timing was a complete coincidence. I believe he knew I loved him: something he saw as a weakness in me: a weakness he could exploit, until I was no longer of use to him. I was all used up in his mind--time to go find a new toy.
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« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2015, 04:57:01 AM »

My exBPDbf once told me "now i believe you really love me" when he was playing mind games back and forth between me and the replacement   I couldnt believe for all the time we were together and all the things we had done, he just didn't believe me at all
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« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2015, 08:15:11 AM »

"apollo: This is all very profound for me, these responses. What it's telling me is if there was a strong emotional reaction from our BPDx, be it rage, intensity or moments of deep infatuation that in it of itself created the end of most the relationships here?"

dagwood,

What I believe is that when a pwBPD develops strong emotional bonds/feelings toward a Non, from that time forward, the relationship is basically on the countdown clock. A pwBPD is not wired to handle strong emotions. When they cannot regulate/accept/deal with those strong emotions---love, hate, emotional intimacy, whatever---they become triggered; as a result, their maladapted defense mechanisms (the reactions: rage, ST, abandonment, promiscuity, distancing, etc.) come into play. Those mechanisms ultimately destroy the relationship. Their maladaptiveness is borne out in the fact that they destroy rather than preserve.

The professional therapies target these maladapted mechanisms. There is no cure for BPD, only treatment. That treatment basically teaches/instills in a pwBPD better coping mechanisms (less destructive).

So yes, ultimately, love (or another type of strong emotional bond) destroys these relationships. Looking back on my relationship with my BPDexgf, armed with what I now know about the BPD complex, it is very obvious to me that she could not handle intimacy. It was completely toxic to her; I became completely toxic to her. Hell, looking back, I think there were days that she would have jumped out of a 30th story window just to get away from me. I didn't do anything to her; I was just there, in her presence. She couldn't handle the feelings that she had for me (engulfment).
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« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2015, 10:40:08 AM »

"dagwood,

What I believe is that when a pwBPD develops strong emotional bonds/feelings toward a Non, from that time forward, the relationship is basically on the countdown clock. A pwBPD is not wired to handle strong emotions. When they cannot regulate/accept/deal with those strong emotions---love, hate, emotional intimacy, whatever---they become triggered; as a result, their maladapted defense mechanisms (the reactions: rage, ST, abandonment, promiscuity, distancing, etc.) come into play. Those mechanisms ultimately destroy the relationship. Their maladaptiveness is borne out in the fact that they destroy rather than preserve.

The professional therapies target these maladapted mechanisms. There is no cure for BPD, only treatment. That treatment basically teaches/instills in a pwBPD better coping mechanisms (less destructive).

So yes, ultimately, love (or another type of strong emotional bond) destroys these relationships. Looking back on my relationship with my BPDexgf, armed with what I now know about the BPD complex, it is very obvious to me that she could not handle intimacy. It was completely toxic to her; I became completely toxic to her. Hell, looking back, I think there were days that she would have jumped out of a 30th story window just to get away from me. I didn't do anything to her; I was just there, in her presence. She couldn't handle the feelings that she had for me (engulfment).

I believe this is a succinct and perfect analysis of my experience with exbfBPD--the closer we became, the more he looked for something to be wrong: some reason he needed to plan his great escape. When he could find nothing, he would create tempests in a teapot or something from nothing. He was an alchemist who constantly turned happiness into chaos, fear, and loathing. He would leave my home blissful after a wonderful evening and by the time he got home he began writhing in texts on his phone's keyboard--usually over my ex husband or male business partner: something he made up to be angry and upset about. All the while protesting that I was the most loving and generous person he knew. Yes, I believe he KNEW I loved him unconditionally, and he simply couldn't handle it: engulfment.
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« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2015, 10:51:19 AM »

Excerpt
dagwood i hate to be a stickler for language in a thread like this, but it depends on what you mean by "truly"  tongue.

its my opinion that if you "truly" believe someone loves you, you dont constantly and consistently fear their abandonment of you, and need to test them in that regard.

once removed: Truly... .I understand what you're saying, Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). It's a grammatical habit I have for some reason. Tend to use it to emphasize, but can see how it's use in terms of emotional intensity could be dissected to give impression that a BPD has different layers of emotional attachment. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

apollo:
Excerpt
What I believe is that when a pwBPD develops strong emotional bonds/feelings toward a Non, from that time forward, the relationship is basically on the countdown clock. A pwBPD is not wired to handle strong emotions. When they cannot regulate/accept/deal with those strong emotions---love, hate, emotional intimacy, whatever---they become triggered; as a result, their maladapted defense mechanisms (the reactions: rage, ST, abandonment, promiscuity, distancing, etc.) come into play. Those mechanisms ultimately destroy the relationship. Their maladaptiveness is borne out in the fact that they destroy rather than preserve.

Ding! Wow... .A moment of sheer clarity for me... .a I could had a V-8 epiphany... .this all makes so much sense!
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« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2015, 02:52:26 PM »

dagwood,

I am glad that you got a "ding" brother. I know that you've been having a hard time with all of this. I am sorry for that. Please accept the fact that the problems that y'all faced were not due to what you did or didn't do. Likewise, the same is true of her, regardless of how it appears. Her behavior was not directed at you personally (Yes, I know, that is a hard premise to accept.). BPD is the culprit. It drives the bus over the cliff, time after time. Unless she gets the correct professional help, her life is going to be caught in this cyclical destruction.

(BTW, I responded to your last PM.)
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« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2015, 03:05:30 PM »

"I believe this is a succinct and perfect analysis of my experience with exbfBPD--the closer we became, the more he looked for something to be wrong: some reason he needed to plan his great escape. When he could find nothing, he would create tempests in a teapot or something from nothing. He was an alchemist who constantly turned happiness into chaos, fear, and loathing."

Loveofhislife,

Yes, engulfment, and then him creating a gulf between y'all so he could distance himself from it (which he errantly sees as you being the problem). Replace "he" with "she" and you get my story. Intimacy guarantees that chaos ensues. Take care of yourself in all of this!
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« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2015, 03:18:49 PM »

Honestly, I don't think that a person with BPD can be loved by an objective, healthy person.  I'm well out of it now, divorced, and I'm almost ashamed that I hung in there so long with a person who very clearly didn't even like me.  I think I liked the structure of marriage and was proud of my ability to tolerate so much bad behavior.  She did not engender love in me, not at all.  And I can now say this with some degree of confidence... .I've been with a healthy, normal woman for a while now and man is it easy, and happy, and this is the fertile ground on which love grows.  Not the combat I was involved in for 20 years, certainly not.  I now know that despite what I told myself, love was not possible there, and I didn't love her.  Felt bad for her, yes.  Loved her, no. 
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« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2015, 03:24:49 PM »

Excerpt
Honestly, I don't think that a person with BPD can be loved by an objective, healthy person.  I'm well out of it now, divorced, and I'm almost ashamed that I hung in there so long with a person who very clearly didn't even like me.  I think I liked the structure of marriage and was proud of my ability to tolerate so much bad behavior.  She did not engender love in me, not at all.  And I can now say this with some degree of confidence... .I've been with a healthy, normal woman for a while now and man is it easy, and happy, and this is the fertile ground on which love grows.  Not the combat I was involved in for 20 years, certainly not.  I now know that despite what I told myself, love was not possible there, and I didn't love her.  Felt bad for her, yes.  Loved her, no.

goateeki: I'm sorry you had this experience for so long. I also felt committed to my relationship as long as I could and despite her giving me the boot many times I still kept wanting to try thinking that my dedication, patience and unconditional love and giving. However, I'm sure you are a far better partner seeing greater appreciation for your "healthy" partner and relationship. So glad to hear. Continued success!
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goateeki
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Married 19 years
Posts: 262



« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2015, 03:40:07 PM »

Excerpt
Honestly, I don't think that a person with BPD can be loved by an objective, healthy person.  I'm well out of it now, divorced, and I'm almost ashamed that I hung in there so long with a person who very clearly didn't even like me.  I think I liked the structure of marriage and was proud of my ability to tolerate so much bad behavior.  She did not engender love in me, not at all.  And I can now say this with some degree of confidence... .I've been with a healthy, normal woman for a while now and man is it easy, and happy, and this is the fertile ground on which love grows.  Not the combat I was involved in for 20 years, certainly not.  I now know that despite what I told myself, love was not possible there, and I didn't love her.  Felt bad for her, yes.  Loved her, no.

goateeki: I'm sorry you had this experience for so long. I also felt committed to my relationship as long as I could and despite her giving me the boot many times I still kept wanting to try thinking that my dedication, patience and unconditional love and giving. However, I'm sure you are a far better partner seeing greater appreciation for your "healthy" partner and relationship. So glad to hear. Continued success!

Dagwood, I hear that you're sorry and I'm grateful that you said it.  But honestly, my only concern is for the kids, who had the rug pulled out from under them.  They're innocent, and they didn't deserve to have their family broken up.  They had every reason to expect more of the grownups in their lives.  The thing that brought the house down was essentially an ultimatum from me that I be treated like she actually wanted me in her life, loved me and was proud of me (I was pretty much nailing it all as a husband and father -- god knows I tried, and I did it), and this was for her the opportunity to say, "No."  I gave it the mandatory six months and divorced her.  If not for the collateral damage, I'd say it was the best decision I ever made.  Sometimes you just have to be like the Wehrmacht rolling into Poland in September '39.  I was, and I'm proud of it.  She now spends her time alone in an apartment by the railroad tracks.   
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rg1976
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Posts: 76


« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2015, 05:11:41 PM »

No, she always told me that she didn't believe I loved her.  No matter what I did for her, or how much I told her and tried to show her.  She always found some way to invalidate it.

Very trying and difficult.

Oh well... .
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dagwoodbowser
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 282


« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2015, 05:26:01 PM »

Excerpt
No, she always told me that she didn't believe I loved her.  No matter what I did for her, or how much I told her and tried to show her.  She always found some way to invalidate it.

Very trying and difficult.

Excerpt
rg76: Greetings. First I see of you on da Boards. How are things for you? I understand what you went through. While my X was not as harsh, she still found ways to invalidate all I did and said. It saddened me more than frustrated me.
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