Closure

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Would a final "closure" conversation actually make me feel worse?

Anyone have experience with this?

[Beach_Babe]

Would a final "closure" conversation actually make me feel worse?

Anyone have experience with this?

[Beach_Babe]

Wishful thinking I know it won't happen. Just wondered if id be back at 'square one' if it did.

[fromheeltoheal]

Most folks here have said it made it worse, or at least didn't give them the closure they were looking for.  An issue is while you want closure, what does he want?  Once we get to the devaluation stage of the disorder we have become the trigger, not the soother, to strong emotions a borderline has trouble regulating.  So any attempts at a mature conversation at that point might be seen as an attack, a borderline can't take responsibility for anything without falling apart, so blame shows up as a defense mechanism, and you'll get blamed instead of offered real closure.  You don't want that.

But the good news is we get to figure out how to give ourselves closure, which ends up being more powerful, and starts with accepting that our exes have a mental illness and the regular rules of civility don't apply.  Where are you with that Beach?

[Beach_Babe]

 I never wanted him to leave. But he IS gone now. Might as well say dead. I don't want to ache for a ghost.

I just feel so STUCK.

[Beach_Babe]

How can they not miss us? It not human. No grieving?

[enlighten me]

I wouldnt expect getting the mature closure conversation you are hoping for. When they feel threatened they go on the defensive and project. You will like most end up feeling worse.

The best closure you can get is by accepting he has a dissorder and that no matter what you did the ending was inevitable.

[Recooperating]

I got somewhat of closure when he texted me after 3 months NC. (Now 8 months)

I answered, wished him well and he got angry and started a new rant with accusations and BS. How he never loved me and how I never gave a damn about him... .  So much for a peacefull goodbye. There's a thread about it here... .Closure doesnt come from them, its a process within us. If we depend on others for closure we will be stuck forever, its about finding a way to move on for us, take responsibility for our own feelings and shifting the focus from them back to us.

Hang in there BB! Time is your best friend (and worst enemy... .).  

[going places]

When my ex opened his mouth, it was a lie.

So, why would I want to have any type of conversation with a liar?

That's not closure, that's torture.

He destroyed our family, deceived us all; for YEARS, then just moved on and replaced us with a new female and her child. There is NOTHING he could possibly say that any of us would want to hear, and we'd never know if it was truth, or another lie.

Closure for me was the sale of our home, and me and the kids moving into an apartment.

That, was closure for them too.

I had to email the ex this week. Medical bills that are piling up (daughter in an accident in Jan).

I simply scanned bills, told him the situation, the end.

He emailed back and asked a question or two.

I answered.

The end.

It's still upsetting (I will be divorced 1 year next month).

I had a panic attack last night at work... .

I simply hate communicating w/ him at all. I hate it.

How can they not miss us? Easily for my ex. He is N / ASPD, and just an evil monster.

The only time he grieves, or shows ANY emotion for that matter, is when somehow that 'display' or 'show' will get him what he wants. He has no soul. He's messed up, and he is NOT MY PROBLEM anymore.

There is TOO much life to be lived, and he will not steal one more minute of my time.

Focus on you Babe... .every time you even THINK about him, stop, and replace that thought with something healthy.  It too me MONTHS to get to this point where 'naturally' when a thought of the ex came in, that a healthy thought pushed him out. But it's a God send. It saved my sanity.

[Infared]

My experience was that I was in an incredible amount of emotional pain, caused by the abrupt, dishonest, childish abandonment of our relationship. The person that I thought I had known for 5 years had vanished and was replaced with a selfish, dishonest, blaming, abusive cheater. There was no possibility for an adult closure conversation when I was interacting with a selfish, lying, blaming child. None. (Disordered or not, that was the reality). It added to my pain greatly, but I was on my own. That was the truth, and I had to accept it. Very painful stuff. I was left with grieving the loss on my own with the occasional contact (note on car?), drive-bye or whatever?  Absolute NC was a useful tool once I had this realization.

I can compare directly to a 9-month relationship that followed my BPD experience, that I had with an adult. It's isn't exactly a perfect comparison, but in this instance I broke oFf the relationship and I sat the person down and explained to them my reasons (it was painful for me, too), and we let some time go by... .and guess what, we have a friendship now. We were both respectful somewhat healthy adults, though.

This helped give me clarity to my BPD experience... .sometimes I would think I was the problem... .but it just wasn't so.

In my singular experience, there is just no possibility of anything balanced or respectful or normal in dealing with a pwBPD.  We are left to grieve a significant loss on our own and are taunted and given wacky contacts that disrupt the process that we are left to on our own. I got a therapist and lots of support and slowly, slowly, slowly worked my way through it... .

I did not have to go it alone, but I was getting nothing but hurt from the disordered person, so I avoided that like the plague. Contact did not help my healing process. It caused more pain.

[Trog]

Did any conversation you had with your BPD make total sense and offer validation?

Closure with a BPD/NPD, just like improving the relationship, is a one man/woman show. Nothing my ex could say to me would offer any solace. As she is BPd it would only be valid for the minute she said it and it would most likely never correlate with what I felt was the truth. I never really knew my wife, not really, however in one of our final conversations she did say to me 'You deserve better', on this; I agree 100%. But I don't need to verify my reality anymore, that's a caretaker trait.

[FannyB]

Most folks here have said it made it worse, or at least didn't give them the closure they were looking for.  An issue is while you want closure, what does he want?  Once we get to the devaluation stage of the disorder we have become the trigger, not the soother, to strong emotions a borderline has trouble regulating.  So any attempts at a mature conversation at that point might be seen as an attack, a borderline can't take responsibility for anything without falling apart, so blame shows up as a defense mechanism, and you'll get blamed instead of offered real closure.  You don't want that.

But the good news is we get to figure out how to give ourselves closure, which ends up being more powerful, and starts with accepting that our exes have a mental illness and the regular rules of civility don't apply.  Where are you with that Beach?

This is spot on. Did get 'closure' from my ex and it panned out as described above. Did it bother me? No! I'd already made up my own mind as to what happened based on research and observation. I might be wrong. Perhaps she's fine and I'm the disordered one!   It matters not either way, as I'm happy with the version of events as I see it. But to arrive at that point you've gotta be able to conclude they are broke beyond fixing (without therapy) and stop hankering after them!  :'(

[sbr1050]

My therapist had me write a letter to my ex (one I will not send) writing all my feelings and thoughts to him.  So far I have 8 pages, typed, single spaced.  Funny thing is, is my weak moments, I read the thing and am reminded about all the ways he hurt me.  I thought it was a silly exercise at first but it is helping me get thru the low moments.  Apparently I will burn this letter but until I do, it is helping me.

[zundertowz]

Initially this is what I was longing for... .some kinda closure... .I was even willing to take on the brunt of the blame just to end the relationship in peace.  But its never going to happen, even if she contacts me it will be for her own self gratification and will probably hurt me in the process.  Looking back I realize this person has no empathy or care for anyone... .it was about her and always about her.  Im starting to rememember all the details and red flags and one of them was fake crying... .even when we were together and she was claiming she was hurt or upset it was these crying fits with no tears and sniffling... .its been over 2 months any contact would be selfish at this point... .the people we thought we knew are gone and never coming back and if they do it would probably be a more selfish version if thats even possible.  It may be a tempory ego boost or feel soothing for a moment to have contact with the ex but yes I think it would be a major set back... .I wouldnt even believe anything that was said anyway.

[Low C]

How can they not miss us? It not human. No grieving?

I think there's a good chance your ex does miss you and will continue to, long after you've stopped missing them.  The thing is, getting them to admit that, to say it in a way that accepts responsibility and gives you closure, is unlikely.  With my ex, so much of our conversations, after devaluation, were her simply saying whatever she thought would get the biggest reaction at that moment.  No continuity with anything she said five minutes earlier or later.  And often that statement was designed to cause me pain, guilt or anxiety. 

That person wants control, and closure is losing control.

[Mr.Downtrodden]

Closure makes no difference in my mind.

I sort of "got a bit" after I was just casually abandoned by my exGF. 

It didn't make me feel "better".

Nor did it change the outcome.

If anything, it reeked of deflection and absolving of her own wrong-doings (I can't be that girl for anyone... .)

So, why did she not say so at the start?

[fromheeltoheal]

How can they not miss us? It not human. No grieving?

Just talking standard borderline here, up to you to see if it applies to your ex: a borderline feels intense emotions that they have trouble regulating, soothing, and all of the behaviors come out of that, along with the continual focus on abandonment.  So if he was to grieve, he's conclude it didn't work because he's not good enough, the shame would show up, he doesn't exist now because he doesn't have a fully formed self of his own and needs an attachment to complete him, and who he is to himself is constantly changing without an anchor.  Shtty place to be, it feels really bad, so the tools have to be equally strong, meaning you don't exist, the relationship never happened, forward focus, new attachment, whatever, just don't go there, avoid those feelings so hard he can't feel them or even acknowledge he has them.

We all do that to some extent Beach, that's why the 'good ol' days' are called that; we focus on the positive to move forward with our lives, but taken to the extreme it's called mental illness.  Gotta work on accepting that, it's very hard, especially when we didn't know that when we were in it and all-in emotionally, but that shift to acceptance will give you peace, in relation to him anyway, and then we get to start focusing on our own stuff and asking how and why we went so far down that rabbit hole.  Take care of you!

[Beach_Babe]

Most folks here have said it made it worse, or at least didn't give them the closure they were looking for.  An issue is while you want closure, what does he want?

Me gone and to stay there I guess.


MrDowntrodden: how did that come about? Did she initiate it? From what I understand the outcome would be unpleasant unless contact came from him during a recycle.

LowC: how is closure losing control? They got us to go. Isn't that what they wanted? Im sorry you had that experience. Mine enjoyed hurting me too, but I admit I also threw sone zingers. I wish I hadn't but it is what it is.

[quote author=zundertowz link=topic=277628.msg12627408#msg12627408 date=1432815949).  Looking back I realize this person has no empathy or care for anyone... .it was about her and always about her.[/quote]
I guess thats why the end was so brutal. I know if he ever does contact me again, it will be only when he hits rock bottom, with absolutely no better alternative. Given the distance separating us, unless I reach out thats unlikely. He has too much supply now with his new job, and daily trolling of the internet. When did you finally reach the point you no longer cared?


sbr1050: Thank you for sharing that. A letter is a great idea. How are you doing?


FannyB: so right you are! I guess in a way I did get "closure," however, just not the kind I wanted. It was cruel and cold.  Very hard to accept this is how he feels. If im no longer "worthy" to him would 'nice words' even  absolve that pain?  They do not change the outcome. Why am I seeking validation from such a disordered person? I dont know.

Trog: not with mine. A friend though did get such a conversation with his BPD ex, and said it helped him to move on. This was a year and a half after the breakup though. What was your experience?

[Beach_Babe]

Infared: I am afraid of getting hurt again, thats why I stay no contact as well. Part of me wonders if "closure" is really an excuse to have contact; another "hit" of the drug. I know I have a lot of work to do on me. Have you run into her lately?

[Trog]

Most folks here have said it made it worse, or at least didn't give them the closure they were looking for.  An issue is while you want closure, what does he want?

Me gone and to stay there I guess.


MrDowntrodden: how did that come about? Did she initiate it? From what I understand the outcome would be unpleasant unless contact came from him during a recycle.

LowC: how is closure losing control? They got us to go. Isn't that what they wanted? Im sorry you had that experience. Mine enjoyed hurting me too, but I admit I also threw sone zingers. I wish I hadn't but it is what it is.

[quote author=zundertowz link=topic=277628.msg12627408#msg12627408 date=1432815949).  Looking back I realize this person has no empathy or care for anyone... .it was about her and always about her.

I guess thats why the end was so brutal. I know if he ever does contact me again, it will be only when he hits rock bottom, with absolutely no better alternative. Given the distance separating us, unless I reach out thats unlikely. He has too much supply now with his new job, and daily trolling of the internet. When did you finally reach the point you no longer cared?


sbr1050: Thank you for sharing that. A letter is a great idea. How are you doing?


FannyB: so right you are! I guess in a way I did get "closure," however, just not the kind I wanted. It was cruel and cold.  Very hard to accept this is how he feels. If im no longer "worthy" to him would 'nice words' even  absolve that pain?  They do not change the outcome. Why am I seeking validation from such a disordered person? I dont know.

Trog: not with mine. A friend though did get such a conversation with his BPD ex, and said it helped him to move on. This was a year and a half after the breakup though. What was your experience? [/quote]
It was a difficult. I left my wife now vice versa. The kind of closure I needed was 'why did she treat me so bad', 'why couldn't she take her meds, didnt I mean enough to take a pill' and many more. But the facts are my ex is mentally ill. Im not going to get any sense let alone sensible answers to my important questions from her because my real issues lay within me. That's why im such a strong advocate of looking at yourself and not your ex.

[Mayjar68]

Beach babe I think you will never get closure and that's the hardest thing to take. Could you believe anything he said anyway ? All this is very hard as I'm 3 months out of a 6 year relationship. He's now with the the woman he'd been having an affair with for 18 months, she lives a minute away from me and there's a chance I could bump into them every where I go. So I really understand your pain. I had a bad night last night. You need to get angry, remember how he treated you. You deserve better than this ! You deserve to be with someone who loves and respects you. Who won't lie and cheat, to cherish you. We mourn the person that never was. We was scammed and conned.remember what he done to you.  Do you really need closure for that. I'm fed up with myself feeling so wretched. I read something that struck a nerve in me last night. Can't remember it word for word but on the lines of I won't let rent a space in my head anymore. Please let's promise ourselves that we won't these people occupy our lives anymore in any form and to move on and hopefully live better lives. Don't let him hurt you anymore than he has

[Beach_Babe]

Very true =( How are you doing today?

Recooperating: oh how awful. To be honest my ex sent me an email wishing me well the night before my surgery (but refused my phone call) maybe I just didnt get the hint either? Have you heard from him since then?


goingplaces: Does he share custody with you?

[zundertowz]

Most folks here have said it made it worse, or at least didn't give them the closure they were looking for.  An issue is while you want closure, what does he want?

Me gone and to stay there I guess.


MrDowntrodden: how did that come about? Did she initiate it? From what I understand the outcome would be unpleasant unless contact came from him during a recycle.

LowC: how is closure losing control? They got us to go. Isn't that what they wanted? Im sorry you had that experience. Mine enjoyed hurting me too, but I admit I also threw sone zingers. I wish I hadn't but it is what it is.

[quote author=zundertowz link=topic=277628.msg12627408#msg12627408 date=1432815949).  Looking back I realize this person has no empathy or care for anyone... .it was about her and always about her.

I guess thats why the end was so brutal. I know if he ever does contact me again, it will be only when he hits rock bottom, with absolutely no better alternative. Given the distance separating us, unless I reach out thats unlikely. He has too much supply now with his new job, and daily trolling of the internet. When did you finally reach the point you no longer cared?


sbr1050: Thank you for sharing that. A letter is a great idea. How are you doing?


FannyB: so right you are! I guess in a way I did get "closure," however, just not the kind I wanted. It was cruel and cold.  Very hard to accept this is how he feels. If im no longer "worthy" to him would 'nice words' even  absolve that pain?  They do not change the outcome. Why am I seeking validation from such a disordered person? I dont know.

Trog: not with mine. A friend though did get such a conversation with his BPD ex, and said it helped him to move on. This was a year and a half after the breakup though. What was your experience? [/quote]
Its not that I don't care I never expected it... .I mentally told myself that if she kicked me out or threatned me again I was done... .so I basically burned all bridges our last fight to the point I knew this nightmare would have to end... .she did way to much damage to accept.   Im painted blacker than black now... .if she ever did contact me I may use it to my benifit but in no way am I expecting it.  Deep down I wanted it for a few weeks but I knew it was never coming.

[Infared]

Infared: I am afraid of getting hurt again, thats why I stay no contact as well. Part of me wonders if "closure" is really an excuse to have contact; another "hit" of the drug. I know I have a lot of work to do on me. Have you run into her lately?

No I have not!  I think she and my replacement moved out of my area.  We both lived in the same town.  To be honest, it's years later and I have releif that she is gone and I will not have to put up with the immature hurtful behavior... .but I also feel sad that she is gone, too. That is being honest. I cared very deeply for her but her terms are totally unacceptable to me to have any type of interaction with her. I just deserve soo much better.

I love your honesty! ... .and I already knew that part or most of your reason to have a closure conversation was to make contact! You would get nothing but BPD gibberish and hurt... .but you painful yearning is just so strong right now.

It takes time, lots of time to grieve the fact that someone we care so deeply for wants to hurt us or at best is indifferent to us. Give your self a break, this is very fresh and raw to you and you are just beginning your grieving process of a very long term relationship. I truly KNOW how much pain your are in and my heart goes out to you!      . Just keep taking baby steps forward... .it gets better. God Bless.

[Mr.Downtrodden]

MrDowntrodden: how did that come about? Did she initiate it? From what I understand the outcome would be unpleasant unless contact came from him during a recycle.

Beach_Babe, my ex GF's promiscuous activities were well hidden from me, because we lived 200 miles apart.

Initially, she presented herself as single after ending a relationship of nearly 6 years. She framed everything to make it appear as if she was available and seriously interested in me.

A year later found her exposed (two of the guys who she was sleeping with decided to contact me indirectly to tell me what was really going on, including a boyfriend she told me she was done with - the one who caused her to cheat on her 6 year r/s boyfriend).  She tried to convince me that even though she had slept with both that the things they conveyed in striking detail were lies; since she had long since scorned them, they were jealous and set to destroy any r/s she would try to have with another guy. You know, the classic scorn of "if I can't have her, than no man can... ." attitude.  Interesting that both sides identified me as a "Victim" by then.

Well, my ex couldn't lie about getting pregnant by a one night totally drunken sexfest with a co worker.  She had the audacity to try and assuage my reaction of just being destroyed by telling me what happened (three weeks after) & that she had zero emotional feelings for the father - I was the only one she had deep feelings for, and that this event did not have to affect our relationship.   I decided to contact one of the FWB guys and tell them that she would soon be a mom, and that is when the crap hit the fan -she went off on me, not raging, but through carefully worded, low key tone that she couldn't be "that girl" and that she was done dealing with being blamed for something that "takes two to tango" - her fave expression of deflection and absolving her own selfish actions.  It was only that she could not deal with being exposed in a backhanded fashion that she started to drop hints.  About two weeks later she decided that she couldn't handle the responsibility (meaning a r/s with me) and that she can't be trusted (I took that as a sarcastic jab at the time rather than any sense of shame). And then she abandoned me for four months before contacting me again to tell me that everyone had abandoned her... .And I then felt sorry for her yet again, hoping to be her friend, and that turned out even worse.  If anything, what transpired between us proved to me that you cannot save or help anyone but yourself.

And that is why closure is not even worth the effort. Closure needs to cone from within yourself, through soul searching and being honest about your r/s.  To me, closure equates to indifference.  I hope to get there someday.

[Allmessedup]

I have been thinking about this tonight myself... .

And closure does come from within.  I just had a little help in the process.

I desperately sought closure when my dxBPDgf broke up with me last January.  I have many a thread on these boards and in my journals about it.

What it was doing really was not allowing me to close that chapter.

My gf and I got back together that following april.  Incessant apologies etc.   I was so so so certain I could fix things if I had half a chance with all that I had learned.  And I tried.  I worked very very very hard. 

Both on the way to communicate effectively and on myself, my FOO stuff etc.

But she still dysregulated.  Some of the behaviors stopped but my needs were not getting met and pretty much I constantly was piss*ng her off. 

The difference was I could see it happening,  I could see the chaotic thinking.  The merging with the past and present.

Fact is my exgf is diagnosed.  She has done tons of intensive therapy.  I was working on my skills.  It SHOULD have worked.

But yet I am here again.  Five days out.  And the closure that I have is that I am not surprised in the least. 

It can not work.  Not for us.  And I no longer need her to explain to me why.  I know why.  I just want my heart to believe it. 

It's hard to let go of the dream.


Amu

[Beach_Babe]

He's now with the the woman he'd been having an affair with for 18 months, she lives a minute away from me and there's a chance I could bump into them every where I go.

Now THATS rough! Mine was a LDR, though I was planning to move to be with him. I am glad I didn't. I can't imagine how hard that would be. Have you run into them yet?

How did he react ?

Allmessedup: thank you for sharing that! I started posting on here back in December when we were still together. I tried the to implement what I learned from the staying board. In the end, however I still failed. It takes two to make a relationship, and in the end only one of us cared =(

MrDowntrodden: wow, now THAT is crazy. Mine went nuts too after his buddy exposed his bad behavior. Said it was my fault, I pushed him to it.

Did yours ever spologize for what she put you through?

[once removed]

beach babe, youve gotten a lot of great advice here. in particular, writing letters you wont send, i think its very useful. i wrote at least one and it went a long way. i tried making a list of things to keep me geared toward no longer wanting the relationship, and it became a letter to myself, and it was a major turning point in my recovery.

there are multiple ways to find closure and no one can necessarily tell you the right one; even if they do, youre likely to find it on your own, eventually. some members have gotten it from a few last contacts, but in general, i dont think either a pwBPD or pwnpd can give it to you.

[Beach_Babe]

Great advice indeed! Tell me more about the list, that sounds interesting

[once removed]

well, its a list of everything you dislike about the relationship or the person. we may be rationally aware of these things all ready, but writing them really helps them sink in.

in the book, the journey from abandonment to healing, the author mentions the lonely child, and describes people that have engaged in an actual conversation with this lonely child. its similar.

in my case, it became somewhere between a list, and like i said, a letter to myself, from a very real and convincing part of myself. it was as if i was convincing myself to get closer to my wise mind. monumental turning point for me that was somewhere between semi permanent and completely permanent.

im just a huge believer in writing this stuff out in general. putting thoughts to paper has more therapeutic benefit than one (myself included) might assume. i think i found a method in which i really connected with myself and connected wise mind with rational mind.

if you try it, and it isnt semi permanent or completely permanent, i think youll find its very good practice, with great effect 

[going places]

goingplaces: Does he share custody with you?

The kids are adults, all over 21.

Babe... .you said "it takes two to make a relationship, and in the end, only one of us cared".

When those sad feelings start to consume you remember this: It takes two, you gave it 100%, he did not, so why spend ONE SECOND of your precious time thinking about someone who didn't care? Re-focus your energy on you. Care about and for YOU.