Do I ask kids for copy of the email? If one exists

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I think I may be overly influenced by the fact that I have a close family member who opted to leave the executive world because of a delusional family member who was impacting his professional life.

I'm not sure what your choices are. You probably had that chill feeling of the uncontrollable uncanny when you heard your wife and her aunt talking. In the case of my relative, those same kinds of phone calls were placed to his colleagues, among other people. (I got a few myself, and I remember how calm and almost rational the unfortunate young woman sounded.)

If you will be seeking further high-profile positions and if you can't somehow erect an impenetrable firewall between your wife and your professional life, then what would be the dangers? This might be really tough for you in particular as you are a very family-oriented and community-minded fellow. And thus pretty vulnerable to the sabotage that your wife maybe can't help but inflict on you.

I feel really bad for her too. When she harms you, she harms herself in so many ways.

ADDED: Sounds to me like a good plan to say nothing to the kids.

[KateCat]

I think I may be overly influenced by the fact that I have a close family member who opted to leave the executive world because of a delusional family member who was impacting his professional life.

I'm not sure what your choices are. You probably had that chill feeling of the uncontrollable uncanny when you heard your wife and her aunt talking. In the case of my relative, those same kinds of phone calls were placed to his colleagues, among other people. (I got a few myself, and I remember how calm and almost rational the unfortunate young woman sounded.)

If you will be seeking further high-profile positions and if you can't somehow erect an impenetrable firewall between your wife and your professional life, then what would be the dangers? This might be really tough for you in particular as you are a very family-oriented and community-minded fellow. And thus pretty vulnerable to the sabotage that your wife maybe can't help but inflict on you.

I feel really bad for her too. When she harms you, she harms herself in so many ways.

ADDED: Sounds to me like a good plan to say nothing to the kids.

[Fian]

You are working hard at not being triggered, but I still feel that if you leave the explaining to your wife, it will not end well.  Those that don't know her well will assume that where there is smoke, there is fire, and she can have an impact on your other relationships.

[Notwendy]

I don't know if it is wise to refer your job contacts to your wife. There is no explanation. She is out of place to have contacted them without asking you.

I don't know how to handle this. I think the best you can do is let the chips fall where they fall. They have seen the e mails.

I have worked with other men, and my H works with other women. We both have work related friendships. I suppose it is possible for someone to cross the line, but I have to trust my H to handle that and he has to trust me. It is not my place to accuse him of cheating and contact his co-workers and vice versa. IMHO, the workplace requires a professional decorum, and that means keeping my martial issues out of mine and my H's.

I have no intentions of crossing a line with a man at work, but that doesn't mean we don't talk- maybe about the job, or mutual interests like current events, and if we were the same religion- we have talked about that. If one of them told me I could talk about "anything" at work, I know this means at work. .

Your wife has crossed a line IMHO. She has also taken an email out of context.

If one of my co-workers wives contacted me and I got any hint that she thought there was something funny going on with her H, I would be embarrassed- not ashamed-but still is it embarrassing to be unknowingly and unintentionally brought into something as private as their marriage issues. I would then contact my co-worker with the email and say that I don't want to upset his marriage and then, I would keep any contact, at all, with him to a minimum. Maybe they will take the lead on this one.

[GaGrl]

Just how badly can a PD affect a career?

My DH married his ex when stationed in SE Asia in the early 70s. He went from enlisted to reserve to officer candidate school. His then-wife never fully comprehended the army officer's expectations of conduct, nor that it included the spouse and children, especially when living on post.

Well, ex was a serial cheater and ended up having a pretty flagrant affair with an enlisted man on the post. Something was said to DH, who explained it again to her, but her attitude has always been, "It's not their business what I do."

So after a particularly blatant date at the post bowls Nguyen alley, DH was called in and told he was losing his command and being moved to a staff job. That was the first time he had seriously considered divorce since an early conversation about separating resulted in her saying "If you leave me, I'll burn down the house with the kids in it."

They (the PDs) can turn you any which way but loose.

[formflier]

 

Yep... .my wife used my work credit card to purchase something on Amazon. 

I'm pretty sure it was done intentionally... .to cause me problems.  It ended up in the paper. 

I changed procedures... and made sure she did not have access.

I paid it back... .all the records and audits are clear... .but it inserted talking fodder into things.

I am/was a public figure... .would like to be again.  But... .that may not be possible.

Did the drama in my home play a roll in me getting fired... .very likely. 

On many of these things... .when I get "busted"... I see it as a chance to tighten up my procedures and boundaries.

FF

[GaGrl]

Yep... .my wife used my work credit card to purchase something on Amazon. 

I'm pretty sure it was done intentionally... .to cause me problems.  It ended up in the paper. 

I changed procedures... and made sure she did not have access.

I paid it back... .all the records and audits are clear... .but it inserted talking fodder into things.

I am/was a public figure... .would like to be again.  But... .that may not be possible.

Did the drama in my home play a roll in me getting fired... .very likely. 

On many of these things... .when I get "busted"... I see it as a chance to tighten up my procedures and boundaries.

FF

DH's career did recover -he had several more excellent commands before he went back to a reserve status.

But ex never accompanied him to another posting.

[Notwendy]

I am so sorry. It seems crazy that they don't realize that hurting a spouse's livelihood hurts the entire family.

I would say that my H indirectly sabotaged my work by hardly ever coming home, refusing to help with the kids, and telling me that since I earned less than him, my job didn't count as much and so he could do what he wanted and not help if I asked him.

When they were little, I doubt he even knew where some of their preschools were. He has not driven them to school or picked them up. When I see fathers take their kids to school it seems strange to me.

I have been a stay at home mom, and also worked, but I try very hard to keep these two worlds separate.

However, since he didn't do this directly, he states that he was supportive.

I am grateful though that neither one of us would break the boundary of contacting a coworker or using a work credit card. We also stay out of each others work stuff- papers, computer.

I was not aware of what my mother did to sabotage my father's job, but if she was angry at him, she would threaten to go into his home office and destroy his papers. He was afraid of that, so she possibly did it. She also went into his closet and ruined his clothes and shoes. If she was mad at us, she would wreck our toys.

[babyducks]

Hi FormFlier,

I think I have followed all the ricochets that you have navigated today.   Oy.   I don't know how you do it.   I have a headache from just trying to follow the thread postings.

I am going to take another tack.   Turning into the wind so to speak.   I followed the dilemma you went through with the chore chart,  I paid some attention to the difficult situation with the dog.  I remember the stuff around her taking teaching jobs.   

I completely agree with Fian,  you are doing a great job at not getting triggered, from my view from the other end of the internet you have mastered the skill of walking away and collecting your thoughts.  Excellent job.

Respectfully, really respectfully FF, I am going to encourage you to not let this one slip away.   I've noticed through the reading your posts for a while, a willingness to let go of some pretty grievous behavior.   We all do that.  Like it says up stream,  it's a given our partners our difficult.   

But,  I am really confused.   This was a bunch of appalling behavior.  She violated your privacy.  She embroiled your children in a topic that was extremely inappropriate for them.  Whether they picked up on it or not is a moot point in my book.  Her intent was clearly to imply sexual impropriety on your part to your kids. She then slandered your name, at least to her family and apparently on Facebook.   She involved a business colleague in a personal matter and potentially jeopardized a job connection when you have been busting your tuchis to get work.   She treated you with an incredible amount of disrespect and belittled you.

And this is where I get lost.   I don't hear you say I employed SET to explain how totally unacceptable this was.  I don't see where there are consequences the she has to absorb for her acting out.  What I think I am seeing is she acts, you deflect, divert, and recover and the process repeats.  I actually care about your welfare so I want to be sure that this serves you well.   

I think, that Lao Tzu would say you are on hemmed in ground.  And I would bet you know what to do on hemmed in ground.   From time to time we have to state our truth quietly and clearly.  Times when things are not okay.   I would suggest, that perhaps this one of those times.   There are consequences to actions.   She's swimming at the pool, and you are beefing up your email security and I'm wondering if maybe that's isn't a little lopsided.

'ducks

[Ceruleanblue]

Well, I for one can totally understand why you listened to the conversation between your wife and her aunt. I only snoop because things kept blowing up in my face, and I hate being constantly lied to. In a normal relationship, I wouldn't be tempted to snoop. And you actually found out some valuable information, and were able to come up with a game plan because of it. Your wife is non the wiser, and it gave you time to access your options. Being in the dark, not knowing what you'll next be hit with is such a hard reality of BPD.

How old are the kids your wife emailed? Did she just do it out of spite? What does she hope to accomplish? I'd definitely tighten up her being able to snoop. I'm glad my BPD isn't a snooper. I've saved myself drama and trouble by snooping, just because I'm able to come up with a plan, and give things some forethought.

[KateCat]

She violated your privacy.  She embroiled your children in a topic that was extremely inappropriate for them.  Whether they picked up on it or not is a moot point in my book.  Her intent was clearly to imply sexual impropriety on your part to your kids. She then slandered your name, at least to her family and apparently on Facebook.   She involved a business colleague in a personal matter and potentially jeopardized a job connection when you have been busting your tuchis to get work.   She treated you with an incredible amount of disrespect and belittled you.

formflier, do you recall that at this time last year she was also doing all of these things to you, point per point? As well as threatening your good standing in your church community?

I don't think this gets any better by letting it go.

[Notwendy]

I agree with Babyduck's post. It is well said.

[waverider]

This sort of nonsense goes on the whole time in BPD land. The difference in this case is you were invited in to watch it all roll out.

I think you are doing the right think by just turning the channel off.

We all cop collateral damage living with a pwBPD. This one just has the action cam attached to it as propaganda.

It is an act of terrorism, its not just about this issue but also a warning as to what she can do if you don't toe her line. It already has you extrapolating as to how she could harm your career.

Just demonstrate it's inefficiency as a way to influence you actions.

If you wish to enforce some boundaries about violation of privacy, keep to that principle and away from specifics of the issue. ie she forwarded your emails without consent, rather than the content or the consequences.

[123Phoebe]

Hi FormFlier,

I think I have followed all the ricochets that you have navigated today.   Oy.   I don't know how you do it.   I have a headache from just trying to follow the thread postings.

I am going to take another tack.   Turning into the wind so to speak.   I followed the dilemma you went through with the chore chart,  I paid some attention to the difficult situation with the dog.  I remember the stuff around her taking teaching jobs.  

I completely agree with Fian,  you are doing a great job at not getting triggered, from my view from the other end of the internet you have mastered the skill of walking away and collecting your thoughts.  Excellent job.

Respectfully, really respectfully FF, I am going to encourage you to not let this one slip away.   I've noticed through the reading your posts for a while, a willingness to let go of some pretty grievous behavior.   We all do that.  Like it says up stream,  it's a given our partners our difficult.  

But,  I am really confused.   This was a bunch of appalling behavior.  She violated your privacy.  She embroiled your children in a topic that was extremely inappropriate for them.  Whether they picked up on it or not is a moot point in my book.  Her intent was clearly to imply sexual impropriety on your part to your kids. She then slandered your name, at least to her family and apparently on Facebook.   She involved a business colleague in a personal matter and potentially jeopardized a job connection when you have been busting your tuchis to get work.   She treated you with an incredible amount of disrespect and belittled you.

And this is where I get lost.   I don't hear you say I employed SET to explain how totally unacceptable this was.  I don't see where there are consequences the she has to absorb for her acting out.  What I think I am seeing is she acts, you deflect, divert, and recover and the process repeats.  I actually care about your welfare so I want to be sure that this serves you well.  

I think, that Lao Tzu would say you are on hemmed in ground.  And I would bet you know what to do on hemmed in ground.   From time to time we have to state our truth quietly and clearly.  Times when things are not okay.   I would suggest, that perhaps this one of those times.   There are consequences to actions.   She's swimming at the pool, and you are beefing up your email security and I'm wondering if maybe that's isn't a little lopsided.

'ducks

This sort of nonsense goes on the whole time in BPD land. The difference in this case is you were invited in to watch it all roll out.

I think you are doing the right think by just turning the channel off.

We all cop collateral damage living with a pwBPD. This one just has the action cam attached to it as propaganda.

It is an act of terrorism, its not just about this issue but also a warning as to what she can do if you don't toe her line. It already has you extrapolating as to how she could harm your career.

Just demonstrate it's inefficiency as a way to influence you actions.

If you wish to enforce some boundaries about violation of privacy, keep to that principle and away from specifics of the issue. ie she forwarded your emails without consent, rather than the content or the consequences.

I'm torn on this.  I can see the benefits of both ways of looking at it and handling it.  I'm all about babyducks response, though, as I was thinking the very same things.  

FF, if it were me facing all this as you are, I would NOT be okay with it.  I couldn't just let it go.  And I can't imagine my partner putting up with that sort of thing from me; understandably so!

Is this a man/woman BPD thing?

[Skip]

This is a pretty big deal.

1. Writing "You can talk to me about anything" is not appropriate professional boundaries.  Your friend very well may have been uncomfortable with it (but appropriate professional boundaries on her part would be not to say anything).  Her husband may not have liked it.  It's not going down well with the family.  There is a lesson to be learned here.

2. Forwarding your private email to family members was not appropriate. There is a lesson to be learned here.

I think this all has to be repaired with iron and concrete.

If your wife had not notified everyone, but found the note and was upset with you, how would you fix this?  Sever the relationship with the other women, or give her amble access to her, right.  It's unfortunate, but you stepped over, and this is all that is going to resolve it. You can't explain it away. And yes, I don' t think you had an affair or anything like it - but it looks bad - especially to a pwBPD (and that was a given).

As for her action, how do you handle this?  I think you have to lay down a value/boundary of significance - explain how she could have handled this, negotiate a reasonable way if you had a do-over - and then make it clear what you will do if it happens again. Personally - I tell her I'll move out (but those are my values    ).

As for the kids... .I'd offer to talk about the emails if they want to and I if one or two take you up, I'd have a simple answer for them like " your mom felt I was being too friendly with a female work associate so I apologized to her and your mom and I decided I would copy her on all future emails with this person.

[formflier]

and then make it clear what you will do if it happens again.

This has happened before... .emails to family... .not exactly like this... .but she gets emotional about something... .and sends stuff out... posts things... .I used to react badly to it.

I left a chink in my armor open... .she got access to email... and did... .what she does... .

We have MC on Thursday... .I need to get my gameface on for a chance to communicate clearly to her... .

More in a bit...

FF

[Skip]

but she gets emotional about something... .and sends stuff out... posts things... .I used to react badly to it.

It's good you have a counselor to help out.  I think you are going to need to own your part if you expect her to own hers. Its messy.

[formflier]

formflier, do you recall that at this time last year she was also doing all of these things to you, point per point? As well as threatening your good standing in your church community?

I don't think this gets any better by letting it go.

Yep... .I do... .wondering if it is a summertime thing... .last summer was different... with different stressors in our lives...

But... this "acts of terrorism"... .bullying... .I will run my mouth (ranting and raving) until people act a certain way... .seems to be part of her "core" behavior.  It is getting better... .compared to recent years... .but the incidents where it comes out... .seem to be worse.

I have MC this coming Thursday... .I need to address it clearly... quietly... .with no wiggle room.  

I see this as being similar to when I addressed the issue of my wife sending me naked pictures of other women in my email.  

I handled it clearly... got to the point... .and have never mentioned it again.

More on this later.

FF

[formflier]

but she gets emotional about something... .and sends stuff out... posts things... .I used to react badly to it.

It's good you have a counselor to help out.  I think you are going to need to own your part if you expect her to own hers. Its messy.

Here is what my wife says was a "boundary buster" and was an invitation for an equivalent relationship to a wife.

This lady had one of the most impressive CV style resumes I have ever seen... .I see a lot.  So... .the intent of this email is me asking for a digital copy of her CV

Start of email.

Any chance I can get you to send me a copy?  It was a very impressive package.  I'm looking to model mine along the same lines.

I'm always open to chatting with you for advice on dealings with "formflier's county government name" government... .grants... .anything really

end of email

So... .I did a search of the emails for the word "anything"... .and this is the only section.

My wife and I did not have the email open and in front of us when we talked earlier... .the general description of what she alleges I said... .sort of fits this.  So... 99.9% positive... this is the issue.

Also... .I had made a commitment to her... as part of the hiring process to help her navigate the tricky political waters here... .I was attempting to put her at ease and let her know I still care about the county, the library and other policy issues we were working on.

This county has a history of clearing the decks when political waters change... .she was clearly aligned with me... .she and other department heads of mine have expressed some nervousness to me about their positions... .and I have been privately talking with some of them... .even though I don't work there anymore. 

I may be confusing more than I am helping with all this explaining... JADE alert... .

Also wan to make sure everyone sees exactly what I wrote.  I can always to better... .and "anything really... ." was a bit open... ."anything dealing with government" would have been clearer... .

I am prepared to own my part... .and I need to clarify in my own mind... what "my part is".

FF

[formflier]

Respectfully, really respectfully FF, I am going to encourage you to not let this one slip away.   I've noticed through the reading your posts for a while, a willingness to let go of some pretty grievous behavior.   We all do that.  Like it says up stream,  it's a given our partners our difficult.   

Yes... I agree... .I'm not going to let this go.  I have MC on Thursday morning... .that will be good time to address this. 

I hope you guys can help me sharpen my message.

I will most likely start another topic on just "sharpening that message"

Right now my gut says I will invite her to explain her intent and her side of her actions... .rather than me "accuse" her of why she did this... .or that.

Right now... .I am thinking I will stick to this one topic/issue. 

But... I am considering bringing up that this is repetitive behavior... .and she has "promised" not to do this many times before... .what is the plan to stop this behavior.  That is trickier... .because it starts reaching into the past... .I think there is enough stuff to deal with in this one incident.

I'm open to suggestions and guidance...

FF

[formflier]

Well, I for one can totally understand why you listened to the conversation between your wife and her aunt.

This happens frequently... but usually it is just a long message on my phone of a "butt dial"... .and wife and kids talking.

Maybe once before I picked up phone and it was wife... and she was shocked... didn't understand how she got me on phone.

this was first time I picked up the phone to two women "one upping" each other about how big of an azz their hubbies are... .

There was a bit of a deer in headlights thing from me... .I was trying to process... think...

Ultimately... .I wish I had just hung up.

It would have been more short term satisfying to announce my presence on the line... .and experience the women flipping out. 

Really... I wish I had just hung up.  I would have been better of just guessing at what "BPDish women" talk to each other about.

Sigh...

FF

[vortex of confusion]

Right now my gut says I will invite her to explain her intent and her side of her actions... .rather than me "accuse" her of why she did this... .or that.

In other words, you are going to deliberately invite her to JADE? It doesn't really matter why she did it. If you invite her to explain why, then that is giving her an opportunity to put up a bunch of smoke and mirrors. What matters is that she did it and shouldn't do it again. What matters is how you feel about what she did.

But... I am considering bringing up that this is repetitive behavior... .and she has "promised" not to do this many times before... .what is the plan to stop this behavior.  That is trickier... .because it starts reaching into the past... .I think there is enough stuff to deal with in this one incident.

Is it realistic to rely on her to follow through with anything? What good will it do to bring up that it is a repetitive behavior? That will open the door to more arguments.

Also, if it is a repetitive behavior, then that might indicate that you don't have good enough boundaries in place. What kinds of boundaries can you put in place to keep this from happening again? Can you password protect everything and then do a better job of logging off? Is the computer that you use yours or is it shared? If it is yours, set the screen saver to come on immediately and have it set so that you can't turn it off without a password.

If you try to work out an agreement with her, there is a good chance that it will be forgotten rather quickly.

[Notwendy]

I have mixed feelings about the "ask me anything" comment. I see where Skip's interpretation makes sense, but in context of a work related e mail, I would have assumed that "anything" was in context of anything work related. One could look at this with suspicion, but in a work related context, I tend to err on the side of work. Now, if there was a progression of discussion from work topics to more personal ones, I might become guarded.

IMHO, if FF made an error, it was on the side of ambiguity- but I don't get the sense that his intention was more than a professional relationship with this woman. I am concerned that if he apologizes to his wife for this, that he will feed her suspicions and give her even more reason to justify her actions.

Although I think getting into his e mails, copying them to the kids, and discussing his supposed "desire" for this woman with her FOO is out of bounds, I don't think asking why she did it will bring resolution. I think it will end up being a JADE session. As Waverider mentioned, this is terrorism, a means of control, a power move, "I can hurt you" to keep you in line. She knows she did it, she knows why she did it, and she feels justified to do what she did. She isn't sorry she did it, and given the chance, she might do it again.

With boundaries, I think all we can do is uphold ours. We really don't have control over their actions. I would not give my H access to my work contacts if he was suspicious of me or if he found an e mail that he was upset about. There isn't anything going on, but it would make me anxious to have every word I say or write analyzed by someone who is looking for evidence, being questioned. My colleagues don't deserve to be second guessed or scrutinized either- and I don't want to be. I am quite happy to meet the wives, and I have, but I go to work to get a job done, and I don't want to be distracted by a spouse checking me out or observing me either.

My H also wants to keep his work world to himself. In fact, he set stronger barriers to me than I did. I don't have a lot of concern, but if I did, I know there would not be a darn thing I could do to impact his actions. Years ago, there was an inappropriate co-worker. I have no idea how far things went on his end, and he says he didn't do anything. I do know that anything I did- the insecurity, looking for evidence ( yes I did look) , expressing my concerns- none of it made any impact because- well, he was going to do what he was going to do. Interrogation about it led nowhere. My concern had no impact on my H's behavior. I didn't have conclusive evidence of any cheating, but as Waverider pointed out, trying to control someone else's behavior by getting upset about it doesn't work. All I could do on my end was have an action plan for if I did have actual evidence or if I was repeatedly concerned. I have not been since this, for several years.

Part of that plan is to keep my work relationships private and not intrude on his. Now, I don't mind sharing my work world if there were mutual interest, but I do not want to do it for the purpose of being scrutinized and a search for "evidence" out of nothing. I figure that both of us have a higher judge of our behavior in the workplace than each other. The best I can do is keep my side of the fence as clean as possible, and act according to my boundaries.

[formflier]

and act according to my boundaries.

Exactly... .  IMO... .my values and outlook on life have been consistent since before I met my wife.  I uphold those because they matter to me... .not because of my wife.

My wife is the benefactor of that... .not the reason for that. 

That's doesn't mean my wife doesn't matter... .or that I don't think of her when I live out my values... .make decisions... .

Not sure if this needs to get worked into what gets said to her in MC.

FF

[formflier]

Right now my gut says I will invite her to explain her intent and her side of her actions... .rather than me "accuse" her of why she did this... .or that.

In other words, you are going to deliberately invite her to JADE? It doesn't really matter why she did it. 

I see the point of view... .but I don't want to assume anything... .I want to speak for me... .let her speak for herself... .

Ultimately... .with the guidance of a counselor... .what I would like to hear spoken to me is how I am supposed to take this... .what is she trying to communicate. 

They are her actions... .her decisions... .hers to explain.

So... .before I reached out the the woman in question... .I thought about my goals and "what good will come of this"... .

My goal was to get a better CV style resume to assist with my job search which would provide for my family. 

So... .my wife's goal in sending out this email was... .?  I expect to hear a bunch of disordered nonsense... .but I might not... .the only way to find out is to attempt to clearly communicate with her.  Likelihood of this working is less than 50%... .but it has worked in the past... .just not very often. 

The MC seems very good at validation... .an redirecting each of us to talk about our feelings... .


FF

[formflier]

 

Thanks for all the help in this thread.

Below is a discussion about how to respond to this.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=278513.0


Below is a discussion about owning my part of this... .

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=278514.0

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .