When is suicide a serious concern?

[hellosun]

So last night the uBPDh was dysregulating, and said to me: "you are a filthy liar! You NEVER loved me." Okay so, obviously this is not the case, and he knows that. But in the moment, he FEELS that, I suppose? These words really got to me, because currently, he is depressed, on top of being dysregulated. And in the past, whenever he thought he might lose me, he became suicidal.

I was concerned he might self-harm or try to kill himself, so I let him spew furry and accusations at me, while I tried to calm him down. I was validating, but too apologetic, I think.

I feel lame for not being more assertive in this situation, because the thing that set him off was my saying I was not interested in trying a minor sexual act that I personally feel would be humiliating and unpleasant. Apparently, this means I don't care about him or his sexual needs. Uhhhhh. 

Some of my friends would say "it's not your responsibility if he hurts himself." Okay, they're technically right. But it seems kind of harsh? I care about my uBPDh, even when he's being unreasonable due to his disorder (if BPD is what he is dealing with--he needs to see a therapist).

How do I treat both him AND myself in a responsible and respectful way when I am concerned about his personal safety? Also, do I need to hold him accountable for his inappropriate sexual demands, or should I just let it slide? Maybe that will depend on whether or not he brings it up again. If he drops it, then perhaps he has realized that he was out of line, which he was imo.

Today he is STILL upset with me... .And threatening to change our plans to move into our new apartment together this fall. I said firmly that if he would not be moving in with me (choosing to instead continue working in another state), I would be getting a roommate for the first semester. He has to realize that his decisions have consequences.

Arrrrggggg I hate this drama.   

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[hellosun]

Sorry, my title makes no sense whatsoever... .Better would be: "When is suicidal ideation/threats of suicide a serious concern and not a manipulation tactic?" or "How do I set boundries when concerned about safety of pwBPD?"

[takingandsending]

Hi hellosun. 

Sorry that you are going through this today. You are having a boundary. Reassure him that his feelings are important to you, that you understand them, but that you both do best when you respect each other's comfort level. And you are just not comfortable with what he is asking. Don't take the verbal abuse. If he is insulting or hurtful, let him know that you need to take a 20 minute break to get your head clear.

Do you think that is too triggering at this point into suicidal ideation?

[vortex of confusion]

There is some information in the Lesson on Surviving Confrontation and Disrespect: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56206.msg913191#msg913191

There is one that is specifically about depression and suicidal ideation: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=69192.0

Your friends are sort of right but they are also wrong. If a partner is threatening suicide, it should be taken seriously. There are professionals that are trained to deal with those kinds of situations. Don't tie yourself up in knots trying to figure out how to protect your partner from himself.

If somebody asks you to perform a sex act and you do not want to do it, then don't. Period. No means no. It doesn't matter whether or not his demands are appropriate or inappropriate. I don't think that sounds quite right. What I mean is that it is fine for him to like whatever he likes when it comes to sexual stuff. The problem arises when he tries to force you to do something that you don't want to do. Some people will advocate trying to figure out what it is about this particular act that you don't like and try to see if there is a way that you do it as a special treat. I am throwing that out there because I have spent lots of years reading about stuff like that. The bottom line is don't let it become an argument. If you do not want to perform that act, then don't. There is no need to explain yourself or defend yourself. That is an instance where a boundary might be good.

[hellosun]

Thank you both for your replies! It's so helpful to be able to think on paper, and get feedback from you kind, understanding people. 

vortex -- oh yeah, there's nothing inappropriate about his sexual desires, it's not that. I am willing to do pretty much anything in bed (that isn't dangerous), even if I don't particulairly like whatever it is. But I draw the line at acts which cause me to have a negative physical response (pain, vomiting, etc), since neither of us are into BSDM. My refusal in no way affects his ability to be satisfied sexually.

It's just like in other areas of his life--one minor thing goes wrong, and the whole world hates him, you know? I've been thinking... .He needs to understand that I love him, even when I set boundries. If I try to give him everything he wants, I will inevitably fail, and damage myself in the process. I have been noticing the damage to myself I have already done, and am now trying to change that. He interpretes this change as not getting what he wants, and thus he feels I do not love him.

How can I reassure him that I love him, while I am settting new boundaries?

He does need professional help for the depression. Unfortunately, he refuses to go to a therapist without me, and since we are seperated by several states at the moment, that is not going to happen yet. But yes, that needs to be high on my priority list. I will do my best to make that happen after the move, because he is in obvious distress, and badly needs the care.

I will also do my best to be more mindful of whether or not I'm JADEing... .Last night I was definatley well into JADE territory when I was trying to remind him how much I love him. *facepalm* I did validate as well tho! There was some progress!

But yes, I need to just state "no," and not give into his dysregulated accusations and so forth. Thank you for saying that.

Is there any way to communicate love and concern while saying no?

takingandsending -- I guess I am scared that he will act out by harming himself if I leave/hang up the phone when he thinks I hate him. Leaving him alone with intense feelings like that is just... .There have been times when I left him alone, and he confessed to me later that he was making suicide plans. Maybe I am being paranoid, but I know how low he is right now.

With less severe regulation, timed breaks have worked really well. He has even started communicating his need for a short break when he gets angry, as well, which is a massive improvement on his part.

If the issue comes up again, I will try to adapt your gentle, non-accusitory wording.  Until he has therapy, I may just delay discussing it. I'll try, "I know this is an important issue to you, and I do want to hear you out at some point, but I feel very stressed at the moment, and feel I would be a much more attentive listener at a later date."

I do want to avoid another angry meltdown, if possible. Too much stress for him, in this fragile state.

[takingandsending]

He needs to understand that I love him, even when I set boundries. If I try to give him everything he wants, I will inevitably fail, and damage myself in the process.

hellosun, this is what I was sensing when I read your post. My wife has also had bouts of suicidal ideation, but never as far along as actually planning anything or thinking about plans. You have to take that seriously, and as VOC stated, get help. It cannot be your role to be responsible for him choosing to continue his life.

I like your focus on how can you let him know that you love him when you are loving yourself by having a boundary. That's a healthy, good question. I once read an account of a person with BPD in treatment - she stated that people around her having clear boundaries, as much as she felt threatened by that, was really important for her because, when they didn't, she would spill into them and lose herself. By her account, it was these times when her identity was really diffuse that she was most likely to dissociate and self harm. Put another way, she relied on people around her to define themselves clearly so that she could begin to define herself more clearly and not feel so desperately like she had no self. This lack of self identity seems pretty common for pwBPD.

So, even when your partner is in crisis, is it possible that having a compassionate, clear boundary can help him more than hurt him?

[vortex of confusion]

How can I reassure him that I love him, while I am settting new boundaries?

I know this sounds a bit weird. Be more detached. Seriously, if you set a boundary while in that "oh I love you so much state", it will be too easy for him to bust through the boundary. Boundaries are about you and protecting yourself. Sometimes, it is possible to be "nice". Boundaries are there to protect YOU. When setting new boundaries, he is likely going to get upset and it will make it very difficult to set the boundary and keep it. I find that it helps to work on one or two boundaries at a time so that nobody gets too overwhelmed. When I first started trying too set little boundaries, there was no reassuring my husband. It totally freaked him out. He was having an extinction burst.

Now that the extinction bursts have stopped, I can set boundaries and reassure him. For example, one day, we were talking on the phone and he kept badgering me and asking "Are you okay?" I had already told him that I was tired and wasn't feeling well. After about the third time of asking, "Are you okay?" I hung up on him. He didn't call me back either. Later in the day when we talked again, I told him, "Hey sweetie, I really love you. I did hang up on you. I was frustrated because you kept asking me the same question over and over. I told you that I was okay and that I was tired. I wanted to talk to you but did not want to be badgered. Sometimes I need space to feel my stuff and I felt like I was being smothered by your continual questioning." He responded with, "Yeah, I realized that after you hung up on me. I am sorry about that." (To top it off, he asked his therapist in their last session what he could ask me or say to me other than "are you okay?" He came home with a list of different questions and things to say that are way better than "are you okay?"

This sounds great now. It wasn't that great a couple of years ago. A couple of years ago, hanging up on my husband would have led to him calling and calling and calling and me getting angry and nasty and us getting into a passive aggressive little fight. If somebody had told me that things would be like this when I found this sight, I would have laughed them off the internet.

He does need professional help for the depression. Unfortunately, he refuses to go to a therapist without me, and since we are seperated by several states at the moment, that is not going to happen yet. But yes, that needs to be high on my priority list. I will do my best to make that happen after the move, because he is in obvious distress, and badly needs the care.

Can you see a therapist for you without him?

What would happen if you stopped focusing so much on him? I know that sounds really weird. I have had more success with focusing more of my energies on me and less energy on him. I have figured out that my husband will take as much as I can possible give. So, I try to figure out what works for me and go from there. It isn't easy because there are times when I have to watch myself and stop myself from being so caught up in what my husband is doing or feeling. It is okay to care. Caring does not have to involve making this person the center of your life.

Is there any way to communicate love and concern while saying no?

Sometimes you can. Sometimes you can't. In a sexual situation, it can be best to flat out say NO. Keep the love and concern focused on you. If you try to communicate love and concern, it can too easily be turned into, "If you love me that much and are concerned for me that much, then you will give me this sexual favor." Don't even go down that road. Don't open yourself up to that. Keep it short and sweet without worrying about showing him love and concern. Don't be a jerk about it. Be calm and sincere and stand your ground. If he flips out or feels unloved because you won't do something for him, that is on him not you.

I guess I am scared that he will act out by harming himself if I leave/hang up the phone when he thinks I hate him. Leaving him alone with intense feelings like that is just... .There have been times when I left him alone, and he confessed to me later that he was making suicide plans. Maybe I am being paranoid, but I know how low he is right now.

He has you right where he wants you. You are distressed and worried about him. You are afraid to fart wrong for fear that he will hurt himself. Stop that. Yes, he is having big emotions that he can't deal with at the moment. That is his responsibility, not yours. You can hang around as long as you are comfortable. It is okay for you to say, "Hey, I can't handle this. I am going to call 911/the crisis center/whatever to get you some help."

I remember when my husband used to pull the suicide card on me. He stopped doing it when I told him something along the lines of, "Hey, I am not going to tolerate you making those kinds of threats and statements. If you are in so much pain that you want to kill yourself, you need help. The next time you make a threat like that, I will be getting the authorities involved." Oddly enough, he never tried it again and tested whether or not I was being serious. I think he knew that I was dead serious and was not going to back down. Caring about him does not mean that I have to take care of everything myself. Caring can mean stepping back and getting somebody else involved that has more experience. When I kind of forced my husband to stop relying so much on me for everything, he started to change and he stopped a lot of his antics.

I do want to avoid another angry meltdown, if possible. Too much stress for him, in this fragile state.

Have you come across the stuff about how to not make things worse? There for a while, I didn't really share any feelings at all with my husband. I took a break from trying to communicate my feelings to him. I would tell him NO at times. For the most part, I would simply smile and nod, take care of whatever business needed addressed, and then move on. Even though I wasn't really saying much and wasn't feeling heard, it still felt better than the conflict. Yes, I was validating him and listening to him and I was largely being ignored. At the time, it was frustrating and I didn't quite understand it. Now, I am so glad I did it because it put a stop to a lot of the conflict and it gave my husband motivation to do something different.

What reason does your partner have to change if you continue to react the same way that you have always reacted? Why should he stop the suicide talk? It gets you in a tizzy and you forget about your concerns and get hyperfocused on making sure he is safe. BAM, he is the center of attention and you are falling all over yourself for him. Stop it! If you change things on your side, he will have to find new and different ways of responding.

 

[Bpdwifelife]

You are very compassionate and loving to him and to yourself. He is very lucky to have and obviously feels like he doesn't deserve you so when you rejected whatever his request was you rejected him totally. That's how they are you know. Thank goodness for this place to keep us sane at times. This did strike a cord with me though. Not to be graphic or gross - my uBPDh won't give oral though he did when we first met and often. When I asked him why he stopped he said it was because my **** was disgusting. That Hurt! I know it's not true and my lady parts are perfect as he's also told me a million times but it stung for months and I felt incredibly insecure sexually with him for awhile after that and I felt very rejected. Turns out he witnessed his father performing it on his mother when he was young and IT disgusts him - it's not ME who disgusts him. He later admitted he never performed in on anyone except in the beginning of a realationship in order to prove himself. He had to project that something traumatic that happened to him was because something was wrong with me. Weird how they do that and so abusive too. But now that I know why he really doesn't like it it doesn't bother me that we don't do it. I would feel weird if he did because now I also have that picture in my mind (Yuck). I never really liked it anyway but I wanted him to want to do it. Humans are weird even us "normal" ones. Lol.

But on the main topic, that is so hard for anyone to judge or advise on. You know him and if he is capable or manipulating you. My h has threatened three times twice with a loaded gun to his face. On these occasions I was literally jumping up and down screaming for him to put it down crying begging him to put it down. Then a saw the evil twinkle. It was just a game to him - a bid for attention - he was loving how upset I was. The third time he threatened (sans gun) he said "I'm a piece of ___. I'll be dead by the end of the night". I said "thank god you'll be doing us both a favor". Now this was of course before I knew about BPD and would never say that now but it was after I realizes he had no intention of killing himself and that he was NOT suicidal. Mine just isn't. He isn't the inward acting self harming cutting banging head type BPD. He is the outward acting BPD and thus more dangerous to me than himself. But I will say he's never said a thing about suicide again. No one can judge if yours is serious or not. You've been given lots of great advice here though. How wise and compassionate can a person become by loving and living with a BPD? I ask myself that a lot because I'm tested daily and I have to dig deep within a well of personal and spiritual reserves I didn't know I had until this blew into my life. I can feel myself grow and change on a daily basis which is part of the reason I stay. I'm here on this earth to become aware of myself others and be the best person I can be - strange how that is the gift he is giving me without knowing it.

But what is JADEing mean?

[vortex of confusion]

But what is JADEing mean?

JADEing is the process of trying to justify, argue, defend, and explain yourself. I was trying to find a link. I think the stuff on JADE is in the Lesson on Communication: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56206.msg913190#msg913190