What is the "hater" phase?

[joeramabeme]

So many posts here.  Doesn't seem obvious what it is other than they are pissed off.  Mine was more or less pissed off most of the time.  Now that it is ending she has painted me black and there is no turning back.  Is that what this refer to?

[once removed]

references to "the hater phase" are usually pertaining to this article:

"https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-borderline-relationship-evolves"

much like the stages of grief, it can differ in many ways, depending on both partners. every person and relationship is unique.

hope this helps.

[joeramabeme]

references to "the hater phase" are usually pertaining to this article:

"https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-borderline-relationship-evolves"

much like the stages of grief, it can differ in many ways, depending on both partners. every person and relationship is unique.

hope this helps.

Yes, that helps.  I had read the article before.  I am finding that these articles have to be re-read and make more sense as I learn and comprehend more.

I really love this excerpt:

"It's like pouring the best of your self into a galactic-sized Psychological Black Hole of bottomless emotional hunger. And if you keep pouring it in long enough, one-day you'll fall right down that hole yourself. There will be nothing left of you but your own shadow, just as it falls through her predatory "event horizon." "

The Clinger phase with my pw BPD was not that she jumped over the ship for rescuing, she ran our proverbial car off the road and then she rescued me from my distress of her actions which made me think she was a hero and I was indebted to her, even though I had been enjoying the smooth ride.

All of this learning requires taking a break, processing, reading, taking a break etc... .

Thanks

[Turkish]

Have you seen the discussion on splitting?

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=62033.0;all

I've observed my ex do it to her family members, our kids at times, and of course me. My mom did it to me my whole childhood.

The hater phase seems to be the permanent split.

Then again, my Ex partially split me white as a father and as a friend, which was confusing. I think I know why, but I don't want to hijack your discussion.

[Mutt]

Hi joeramabeme,

That must of been a scary when she ran the car off the road!

I'd like to add to what Turkish said and that it's a semi-permanent split black and it's different for everyone. Some members are split black for a few weeks, months, years and some decades.

The experience for me was that she had raged and then I said enough after several years of behaviors that I couldn't make sense of. I told her I'm getting a divorce and she double-checked if I was really going to divorce her and I replied yes ( I was bluffing   ) and then about two years of extreme anger and now she's slowly splitting me white after she's slowly splitting the other man black.

I didn't know about BPD and what I had done was triggered her fear of abandonment out of frustration, sadness and depression. I was at my wits end.  I had no idea she was mentally ill and I was trying to show her pull up her sleeves and do serious work in marriage counseling and individual counseling or we're over.  Marriage counselling was mostly revolving around me and how I was insensitive and not reciprocal with my partner.

The extreme anger associated with what she fears perceived or real is triggered how I interpret the "hater phase". I would also like to make note of her affair and was projecting her feelings of shame and raging at me for her bad behaviors, it was an emotional cleansing.

Everyone's r/s experience is different and some pwBPD are the quiet type and don't put on an angry display. I can understand how all of this takes time to absorb. Keep asking questions  

[chill1986]

How long does the hater phase last? Or is it very individual?

[once removed]

Everyone's r/s experience is different and some pwBPD are the quiet type and don't put on an angry display. I can understand how all of this takes time to absorb. Keep asking questions  

i agree. i dont feel like my relationship went much in phases, though it did go in cycles. there were rages, sometimes every other day, and i was both devalued and idealized depending mostly upon that, but she did have trouble seeing me or most of anyone in shades of grey. she tried. object constancy was at play here, and the vast majority of rages occurred out of her presence. i think because i practiced a lot of learned avoidant skills, and because we lived an hour apart, that it kept some fear of engulfment at bay. i think the frantic attempts to avoid abandonment were predominant. there were plenty of times, consistently, where either of us could freely indicate something the other had said hurt or was inconsiderate, and it would be acknowledged and apologized for. on the other hand, any time one of us was extreme, the other typically was too. some of my boundaries were intact, and some of them i feel were mirrored; wouldnt necessarily carry from relationship to relationship. toward the end, all bets were off. engulfment was triggered by practically anything i could say or do. the stuff said during rages crossed a new line, and i further retreated. so did she. sadly, it was time.

our actions and reactions play a role in how each relationship plays out. if you were to interview all the exs exes, youd likely get a fair amount of overlap; your stories would likely play out very differently. the article is a clinical personality profile of both parties. it consists of phases we as loved ones can pretty much all identify with. thats where we build, and help build each other 

[SummerStorm]

How long does the hater phase last? Or is it very individual?

My understanding is that it is very individual.  From what I've gathered about my former friend BPD's past, she maintains this hater phase with pretty much everyone except her mother.  And really, I think that may have a lot to do with the fact that her mother and current stepfather have a lot of money and can help support her.  She's only been NC with me for a month, so it's still very early, but I really don't think I'll ever hear from her again.  If she wanted to, she could find a way, but I don't think she will.

With mine, a lot of it depends on what her boyfriend told her.  My last messages to him were warnings about how she's been lying to him and about how she's done some awful things behind his back, but he never replied to me.  So, he either didn't read them or read them and didn't believe them.  But if he did read them, I'm sure he told her about them and she denied everything, before adding on that I'm a "crazy stalker" who won't leave her alone, etc.  Also, her anger towards me would increase tenfold, for trying to tell him the truth. 

She also knows that I've done extensive research on BPD and have started figuring out her tricks, so I doubt she will come back to me.  She also lied to me about her boyfriend hitting her, so she knows that she can't feed me those stories anymore.  In short, I'm no longer useful to her.

[chill1986]

Well I'm not sure about being useful, she's very independent and stubborn so is unlikely to ask for help on anything.

Just would be nice for her to not kick off every time we have to get in contact about something.

Not that I have started the conversations, I am keeping contact to absolute minimum NC where possible.

[joeramabeme]

Hi joeramabeme,

I'd like to add to what Turkish said and that it's a semi-permanent split black and it's different for everyone. Some members are split black for a few weeks, months, years and some decades.

The experience for me was that she had raged and then I said enough after several years of behaviors that I couldn't make sense of. I told her I'm getting a divorce and she double-checked if I was really going to divorce her and I replied yes ( I was bluffing   ) and then about two years of extreme anger and now she's slowly splitting me white after she's slowly splitting the other man black.

I didn't know about BPD and what I had done was triggered her fear of abandonment out of frustration, sadness and depression. I was at my wits end.  I had no idea she was mentally ill and I was trying to show her pull up her sleeves and do serious work in marriage counseling and individual counseling or we're over.  Marriage counselling was mostly revolving around me and how I was insensitive and not reciprocal with my partner.

Your comment about splitting black for a duration and that these durations last for a period of time in relation to the subsiding of fear of abandonment is a spot on analysis.  

2 years ago I had had enough and "emotionally abandoned" her.  It is funny in a strange way how she so clearly remembers one particular conversation we had 2 years earlier when she accused me of the most outrageous things and in my mind I said, "I cannot do this anymore" and turned my back on her mid-sentence.  She had this moment etched in her mind like a diamond.  I was really surprised at the level of her clarity and when she rehashed it I was immediately reminded me of what I was thinking at that moment.  After about a 6 month period, I had decided ultimately not to leave, but in her mind I had already left.  When she asked for divorce this was her reason for wanting it, she truncated it down to "you abandoned me".  

This conversation occurred before I started my reading.  As I more fully understand the complexity of all this I can fit pieces that had previously seemed unrelated to BP right into the puzzle.

We are formerly separating July 25.  I am trying my best to be neutral as we pack our house belongings and divide what is hers and what is mine.  This is not easy for me to do!  At times I sense that her fear goes down and during these times we are not only civil but nice again.  If I start to cry (sadness) or make comments like I miss you, the anger goes right back on.  

Thanks.  And I am curious if you are comfortable sharing; she has split you white?  :)oes this mean that you are back in her graces and engaged in r/s again?

[joeramabeme]

Everyone's r/s experience is different and some pwBPD are the quiet type and don't put on an angry display. I can understand how all of this takes time to absorb. Keep asking questions  

i agree. i dont feel like my relationship went much in phases, though it did go in cycles. there were rages, sometimes every other day, and i was both devalued and idealized depending mostly upon that, but she did have trouble seeing me or most of anyone in shades of grey. she tried. object constancy was at play here, and the vast majority of rages occurred out of her presence. i think because i practiced a lot of learned avoidant skills, and because we lived an hour apart, that it kept some fear of engulfment at bay. i think the frantic attempts to avoid abandonment were predominant. there were plenty of times, consistently, where either of us could freely indicate something the other had said hurt or was inconsiderate, and it would be acknowledged and apologized for. on the other hand, any time one of us was extreme, the other typically was too. some of my boundaries were intact, and some of them i feel were mirrored; wouldnt necessarily carry from relationship to relationship. toward the end, all bets were off. engulfment was triggered by practically anything i could say or do. the stuff said during rages crossed a new line, and i further retreated. so did she. sadly, it was time.

our actions and reactions play a role in how each relationship plays out. if you were to interview all the exs exes, youd likely get a fair amount of overlap; your stories would likely play out very differently. the article is a clinical personality profile of both parties. it consists of phases we as loved ones can pretty much all identify with. thats where we build, and help build each other 

Once Removed - I have begun to see the cycles of my relationship.  Funny, they are so obscured.  Only in retrospect, and armed with knowledge, can I see that she (and me) went through cycles and that she was indeed telling me what was going on with her during these cycles but in a BP kind of way. 

I feel financially insecure sounded like "you are lazy for collecting unemployment".  I am scared of losing you sounds like "we will work things out no matter what".  It is a lot like needing an interpreter when listening.  I always addressed these comments at face value, MASSIVE MISTAKE!  As I become more knowledgeable I can avoid accidental triggerings even though we are now in the moving out phase.

Like you, my spouse was afraid of the gray and object constancy was definitely a part of the package.  Whether it be friends or me.  i amso feel that this was a factor in the history revisionism.  Our dynamics included my PTSD which included a lot of parents telling me that everything was ok when I knew it wasnt and avoiding talking about what was wrong.  When all this would happen I avoided the rages and became more like a child, not healthy for me or us.

Really enjoy reading these posts.  I feel a little addicted to all of it at times.  There is just something that feels so compelling to try and understand what happened when 2 people loved each other so much (and I still do) that placed us so far apart from one another.

Thank you!

[joeramabeme]

references to "the hater phase" are usually pertaining to this article:

"https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-borderline-relationship-evolves"

much like the stages of grief, it can differ in many ways, depending on both partners. every person and relationship is unique.

hope this helps.

I still don't understand something about all this.  The article makes it all sound like the relationship is nothing but a game with a desired ending; blow up the r/s.  It sounds so robotic (I believe this type of thinking explains why there are so many posts that read like the BP is nothing short of animal). 

I can only put my mind around it in terms of her transferring hate for her Father onto me.  Kind of like she placed me in that role over time.  In her mind, I became him and she wants to subconsciously resolve that and so tries to do it with me.

And what is all this business about Control.  Yes, I can see how her behaviors were extraordinarily controlling, but I see that as a function of fear, not wanting to blow everything up or the r/s as a means to that end.  Yes, in  a weird way, I also see that once she has control of me, she is not interested.  But I still dont get it!  It doesn't make sense that someone wants love so much and would be so complex about pushing it away.  Maybe that is an indication that I am not BP.

What thread ties this behavior of "hater" together?

[Turkish]

That article is really more like a summary from 30k ft. Delving deeper takes time (I'm still doing it). Take a look at this discussion hosted by a recovered pwBPD:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=68978.0

People with BPD are intense by nature: one of the disorder’s basic structures is mood lability. But the force of our love – and our hate, though never indifference – comes from something altogether different: from the deep emptiness inside us, where no warmth seems to reach. It’s an absense of a sense of self, a sense of being a good person, and comes from a lack (or perceived lack) of getting our primary needs met when we were children, for whatever reason: abuse, neglect, trauma, difficult innate temperaments, invalidation, loss of a caretaker, harsh environment, whatever it may be.

Love, for an adult, unrecovered BP, is still about getting those driving, unfulfilled needs met. It’s about finding THE person to love us unconditionally who will never leave us and who will make our lives bearable, who will give us a reason to live and give us back ourselves. Ultimately, that’s why it can’t be love, because romantic love is between two people who can experience emotional intimacy and who see each other as partners and as ends in themselves. The unrecovered person with BPD is not capable of that kind of selflessness and sharing: the partner remains an object to a BP, whether the BP is conscious of it or not: the partner is the “cure” for our lonliness, a source to feed our neediness, not a person in and of themselves.

It's very useful to try and understand what drives BPD behaviors. Take a look through the Behaviors and Questions page, particularly the threads marked "I"

[apollotech]

I still don't understand something about all this.  The article makes it all sound like the relationship is nothing but a game with a desired ending; blow up the r/s.  It sounds so robotic (I believe this type of thinking explains why there are so many posts that read like the BP is nothing short of animal). 

I can only put my mind around it in terms of her transferring hate for her Father onto me.  Kind of like she placed me in that role over time.  In her mind, I became him and she wants to subconsciously resolve that and so tries to do it with me.

And what is all this business about Control.  Yes, I can see how her behaviors were extraordinarily controlling, but I see that as a function of fear, not wanting to blow everything up or the r/s as a means to that end.  Yes, in  a weird way, I also see that once she has control of me, she is not interested.  But I still dont get it!  It doesn't make sense that someone wants love so much and would be so complex about pushing it away.  Maybe that is an indication that I am not BP.

What thread ties this behavior of "hater" together?

joe,

You're asking some very complex questions that would require very complex answers. I certainly don't have those answers, but I'm going to toss my amateur hat into the ring as I understand the BPD complex. I hope that this helps a little in your understanding the control aspect of what you went through. I personally don't believe that they have a plan in place to wreck the relationship, but their mental illness eventually usually does accomplish that.

Picture a see-saw, a pwBPD is constantly in a struggle trying to balance fear of engulfment with fear of abandonment. These are the two extreme points on the same axis, one at each end. In the middle is the teeter; the axis is balancing on it. That teeter consists of the people the pwBPD is emotionally attached to, the environment, issues/events/occurrences (past and present), etc. in the life of a pwBPD, (In essence, the teeter represents the things/people that the pwBPD needs to control in order to balance the axis, balance the fear of abandonment against the fear of engulfment.) Move the teeter off of dead center (home position) and the axis moves accordingly. If the teeter is moved towards the fear of abandonment side of the axis, the fear of abandonment rises while the fear of engulfment lowers. Move the teeter the other direction and you get the opposite occurance. This is where the pwBPD's need to control comes into play. They have to control the teeter, which we were a part of.

To control the teeter, they use a variety of maladapted tools. Those tools are designed to either push us away (devaluation) or pull us closer (idealization). While in the relationship, if we became too emotionally close (the teeter was moved too close to the fear of engulfment), the pwBPD pulled out a tool that would generate distance (a push), the teeter was moved back towards home position (dead center) and the fear of engulfment lowered. The same mechanics apply on the other end of the axis, but fear of abandonment generates a pull (idealization). This is the control. My personal belief is that all of this is done without the pwBPD understanding any of it, all the the way down to the "why" of it all. Ultimately, these maladapted coping mechanisms are destructive and usually destroy the relationship. (Idealization, and the maladapted tools employed therein, is just as destructive as devaluation and it's maladapted ensemble.)

I hope that made sense to you, and I hope that it brought some understanding to the control aspect which occurres in these relationships.

[apollotech]

I can only put my mind around it in terms of her transferring hate for her Father onto me.  Kind of like she placed me in that role over time.  In her mind, I became him and she wants to subconsciously resolve that and so tries to do it with me.

joe,

What you are speaking of here, transference, may well have occurred. Did she have ill feelings towards her father? If she did/does, she may well have split him black (magnified/recognized all of his bad qualities, real or imagined). She may also have transfered that (him) over to you. (Splitting someone black/white is a form of transference.)

You are also correct in that she may be attempting to relive or correct something from her past by seeing you in the father role. That is called repitition compulsion, the act of repeating something from one's past. Did you recognize her repeating something while you were in this role?

[Mutt]

I can only put my mind around it in terms of her transferring hate for her Father onto me.  Kind of like she placed me in that role over time.  In her mind, I became him and she wants to subconsciously resolve that and so tries to do it with me.

joe,

What you are speaking of here, transference, may well have occurred. Did she have ill feelings towards her father? If she did/does, she may well have split him black (magnified/recognized all of his bad qualities, real or imagined). She may also have transfered that (him) over to you. (Splitting someone black/white is a form of transference.)

You are also correct in that she may be attempting to relive or correct something from her past by seeing you in the father role. That is called repitition compulsion, the act of repeating something from one's past. Did you recognize her repeating something while you were in this role?

Hi Joe,

I can understand how confusing and sad your ex partner's behavior with her projected anger; like a child splitting a parent and angry. Have you heard of maladaptive schema modes and the punitive parent? I think it helps to identify the different schema modes. The punitive parent is like a subconscious hidden tape that's self critical.

I co-parent and do have missteps with my ex partner. Sometimes she's emotionally dysregulated, she may feel invalidated by how I say something and she'll display disproportionate anger. I can tell that she's triggered and the punitive parent. I try to respond with validation and depersonalize the behavior. I understand that I can try to validate and it doesn't always work and de-escalate. I use the tools, depersonalize her behavior and I don't try to make things worse, I let her be and approach at a later time.

I'm just using my experience with co-parenting and communication. I validate or use SET if she's emotionally dysregulated with something that's going on in her life.

Click here or click photo



Although, I am in the "[L3] Leaving: Disengaging from a Partner with Borderline Personality" forum most of the time, I thought this video was interesting and I think it belongs to this forum. I hope it will help to understand your BPD partners behaviour better.

Instead of definitions, it gives a conversational examples to describe:

• Detached protector



• The punitive parent



• Abandoned/abused child



• Angry/impulsive child



• The healthy adult.

Topic: Poll: Layman discusses schema and BPD - Bas [video]

[Loosestrife]

That article is really more like a summary from 30k ft. Delving deeper takes time (I'm still doing it). Take a look at this discussion hosted by a recovered pwBPD:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=68978.0

People with BPD are intense by nature: one of the disorder’s basic structures is mood lability. But the force of our love – and our hate, though never indifference – comes from something altogether different: from the deep emptiness inside us, where no warmth seems to reach. It’s an absense of a sense of self, a sense of being a good person, and comes from a lack (or perceived lack) of getting our primary needs met when we were children, for whatever reason: abuse, neglect, trauma, difficult innate temperaments, invalidation, loss of a caretaker, harsh environment, whatever it may be.

Love, for an adult, unrecovered BP, is still about getting those driving, unfulfilled needs met. It’s about finding THE person to love us unconditionally who will never leave us and who will make our lives bearable, who will give us a reason to live and give us back ourselves. Ultimately, that’s why it can’t be love, because romantic love is between two people who can experience emotional intimacy and who see each other as partners and as ends in themselves. The unrecovered person with BPD is not capable of that kind of selflessness and sharing: the partner remains an object to a BP, whether the BP is conscious of it or not: the partner is the “cure” for our lonliness, a source to feed our neediness, not a person in and of themselves.

It's very useful to try and understand what drives BPD behaviors. Take a look through the Behaviors and Questions page, particularly the threads marked "I"

Thanks for sharing this :-)

[Pretty Woman]

I think the hater phase is the phase after the honeymoon... .it's when they start to see you aren't "perfect".

My honeymoon was very short.  After a month and a half she was already raging at me. Then every two months she would dump me for a few days or a week, change her number, threaten restraining orders.

I haven't dated much for a 39yo so my dating maturity is stunted. Still, I should have ran after the 1st rage where she ran out of my house with my key screaming, "noo, you are not breaking up with me" got in her car and drove off.

And she is a 42yo woman.

I took her back and it was "Game Over" she knew she had control. And she did for the next three years with over 10 breakups, three for other people.

[joeramabeme]

That article is really more like a summary from 30k ft. Delving deeper takes time (I'm still doing it). Take a look at this discussion hosted by a recovered pwBPD:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=68978.0

People with BPD are intense by nature: one of the disorder’s basic structures is mood lability. But the force of our love – and our hate, though never indifference – comes from something altogether different: from the deep emptiness inside us, where no warmth seems to reach. It’s an absense of a sense of self, a sense of being a good person, and comes from a lack (or perceived lack) of getting our primary needs met when we were children, for whatever reason: abuse, neglect, trauma, difficult innate temperaments, invalidation, loss of a caretaker, harsh environment, whatever it may be.

Love, for an adult, unrecovered BP, is still about getting those driving, unfulfilled needs met. It’s about finding THE person to love us unconditionally who will never leave us and who will make our lives bearable, who will give us a reason to live and give us back ourselves. Ultimately, that’s why it can’t be love, because romantic love is between two people who can experience emotional intimacy and who see each other as partners and as ends in themselves. The unrecovered person with BPD is not capable of that kind of selflessness and sharing: the partner remains an object to a BP, whether the BP is conscious of it or not: the partner is the “cure” for our lonliness, a source to feed our neediness, not a person in and of themselves.

It's very useful to try and understand what drives BPD behaviors. Take a look through the Behaviors and Questions page, particularly the threads marked "I"

Thanks Turkish, I will review that post. 

I just wanted to clarify with you that the first paragraph containing "But the force of our love – and our hate, though never indifference – comes from something altogether different: "; The 'Our Love', is the BPD or the Non?

Also, LOL, sorry another question that falls out of this.  I am super hurt and mystified how easily my wife has transitioned to divorce mode.  She simply acts as if this marriage is like an object that has now changed shape and so she is just responding to the new shape and moving on out.  She appears nonchalant and I can tell that my emotionalism (aka sadness) bothers her.  Feels like that I am a wuss, kind of emasculating.

I am doing the Non dance around this.  The music sounds like; Am I missing something?  Should I just get on and get over with all of this?  I question my own manhood as she seems ready to move on like I am making too big a deal of this. 

[joeramabeme]

joe,

Picture a see-saw, a pwBPD is constantly in a struggle trying to balance fear of engulfment with fear of abandonment. These are the two extreme points on the same axis, one at each end. In the middle is the teeter; the axis is balancing on it. That teeter consists of the people the pwBPD is emotionally attached to, the environment, issues/events/occurrences (past and present), etc. in the life of a pwBPD, (In essence, the teeter represents the things/people that the pwBPD needs to control in order to balance the axis, balance the fear of abandonment against the fear of engulfment.) Move the teeter off of dead center (home position) and the axis moves accordingly. If the teeter is moved towards the fear of abandonment side of the axis, the fear of abandonment rises while the fear of engulfment lowers. Move the teeter the other direction and you get the opposite occurance. This is where the pwBPD's need to control comes into play. They have to control the teeter, which we were a part of.

To control the teeter, they use a variety of maladapted tools. Those tools are designed to either push us away (devaluation) or pull us closer (idealization). While in the relationship, if we became too emotionally close (the teeter was moved too close to the fear of engulfment), the pwBPD pulled out a tool that would generate distance (a push), the teeter was moved back towards home position (dead center) and the fear of engulfment lowered. The same mechanics apply on the other end of the axis, but fear of abandonment generates a pull (idealization). This is the control. My personal belief is that all of this is done without the pwBPD understanding any of it, all the the way down to the "why" of it all. Ultimately, these maladapted coping mechanisms are destructive and usually destroy the relationship. (Idealization, and the maladapted tools employed therein, is just as destructive as devaluation and it's maladapted ensemble.)

I hope that made sense to you, and I hope that it brought some understanding to the control aspect which occurres in these relationships.

Apollo, Yes, this makes sense and it is a good analogy that shows the perpetual shifting to try and maintain emotional equilibrium and safety!  I can personally understand fear of engulfment, less so abandonment.  I would also say that I have exhibited qualities like this but not to the same degree and was consciously aware or could be made aware of what I was doing.

So to complete the idea, are you implying that they get into hate phase because they can never achieve the equilibrium and think it us that is shifting and so give up or that we have unveiled the see-saw to them and are unable / unwilling to see it? 

She always accused me of being a "shape shifter" and a "Jekyll and Hyde".  Both comments had me confused but I would not be surprised if her comments had something to do with all of this.

[apollotech]

So to complete the idea, are you implying that they get into hate phase because they can never achieve the equilibrium and think it us that is shifting and so give up or that we have unveiled the see-saw to them and are unable / unwilling to see it?

joe,

No, I wasn't trying to answer the "hater phase" question with what I wrote about the balancing of engulfment and abandonment. I was simply trying to explain the control concept you asked about.

I think the "hater phase" that you're speaking of is when someone has been split black and then discarded. Although triggering engulfment can result in a "hater phase" (used to generate distance), I think you're asking about a total discard?

[joeramabeme]

So to complete the idea, are you implying that they get into hate phase because they can never achieve the equilibrium and think it us that is shifting and so give up or that we have unveiled the see-saw to them and are unable / unwilling to see it?

joe,

No, I wasn't trying to answer the "hater phase" question with what I wrote about the balancing of engulfment and abandonment. I was simply trying to explain the control concept you asked about.

I think the "hater phase" that you're speaking of is when someone has been split black and then discarded. Although triggering engulfment can result in a "hater phase" (used to generate distance), I think you're asking about a total discard?

Yes, I was asking about a total discard in the first part of the conversation.  I think our conversation went down a few paths.  The see-saw analogy is a good one. 

Thanks Apollo, I have read a number of your posts and you seem to be well along the pathway of healing. 

Best wishes!