Was it BPD or Co-Dependancy? I am reading more on co-dependancy and now..

[toddinrochester]

I wonder about her. I have the same story as everyone else on here. But as I read more on co-dependancy I am torn almost between it. Were we just two co-dependents? Incredibly confused right now... .

[Tangy]

On a reply to one of my own threads I just wrote

"Sometimes I think NPD, BPD, and Codependent are all just different sides of the same coin... .and our personality traits and attachment bonding just tweaks each of them individually to form unique expressions of the traits... .And I'm sure this isn't a new idea. I'd just like to draw a model of it. "

I really think they all have some of the same roots... .

I seriously just picture all of these different traits... .on a spectrum... .and I've said this before on another post... .but imagine the volume sliders where you can adjust... .that's what it's like with all the traits and depending on how "turned up" some of the various traits are is what leads to the appearance of one presentation over the other. Especially if they are rooted in trauma. Hopefully what I'm saying is making sense.

[toddinrochester]

It does Tangy. Thank you.

[toddinrochester]

You know. I wish I could look her in the face right now and just tell her that it wasn't all her. I own half the gas of this fire. I won't get that chance, but it is my wish right now... .

[Tangy]

I've felt like you before... .but thought gosh... .are we both BPD... .just different expressions of it?

I guess if I labeled myself I would say I am more codependent with some borderline features... .because I had myself in therapy at age 20 because I knew something was wrong... .and when he threatened to leave in early 2014 I jumped straight into behaviorally regulating... .(he was the type that rather than facing what he was doing wrong in the relationship... .would highlight my flaws (that I was already being accountable for)... .that's more his N traits I think.) So I had borderline tendencies but immediately at the threat of loss of the relationship I got busy learning to handle them... .which someone with full BPD likely wouldn't do. Like him for example... .

What from your research makes you think you were both codependent?

[toddinrochester]

She was the quiet borderline. Everything in our story matches everyone else's. Sometimes I wonder if we dated the same girl. But the line with the "waif" borderline and co-dependent is so close, I mean soo close that I question what I initially thought

[Mutt]

I wonder about her. I have the same story as everyone else on here. But as I read more on co-dependancy I am torn almost between it. Were we just two co-dependents? Incredibly confused right now... .

Have you read Margalis Fjelstad PhD book? She explains our side of the relationship and the family dynamics quite well.

Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist

[Tangy]

She was the quiet borderline. Everything in our story matches everyone else's. Sometimes I wonder if we dated the same girl. But the line with the "waif" borderline and co-dependent is so close, I mean soo close that I question what I initially thought

Well that makes sense. If only 5 of 9 criteria are needed to qualify... .then quite easily one could present as abandonment fears (without outward rages about it), identity issues, intense relationships, sense of emptiness, and emotional dysregulation (again inward acting) that does sound a lot like a codependent or an adult child of alcoholic... .or adult child of a dysfunctional home... .

One way I've heard codependency differentiated from say narcissism... .is that a child that was codependent was at least able to get some of their needs met at least some of the time... .so connection and attachment with a caregiver wasn't totally severed... .whereas a narcissist could not ever get their needs met from another (therefore their only source of love was themselves) and therefore they present differently in adulthood... .It can even happen with siblings living in the same house... .one connects better with mom or dad... .the other doesn't at all... .(they both grow up dysfunctional) just one presents codependent... .the other narcissistically... .

And I'm sure you've heard some theorize that BPD is a form of narcissism... .

And I don't know about you but I feel like people with codependency traits (like me) can be very narcissistic. Like me for example... .I was super codependent with anyone that wouldn't meet my needs (but that I wanted them to), and super narcissistic with those that were willingly and lovingly meeting my needs.

Ugh... .its so fascinating.

[toddinrochester]

Narcissistic? Funny way to say Amazing! Ha. I kid. The only part of BPD that she has that even myself as someone with co-dependency issues can't fathom is how she went from wanting to marry me and have my kids one week to ending it and just walking away as if it didn't matter. I mean she cried but then finding her on dating sites active even while we were together, that brings the BPD part in. For me at least. Stating that she wasn't on there to date just read the emails. And that she paid for three months when we met so why not? Never once seeing how I was feeling during all this. Okay, she is BPD.

[Tangy]

Narcissistic? Funny way to say Amazing! Ha. I kid. The only part of BPD that she has that even myself as someone with co-dependency issues can't fathom is how she went from wanting to marry me and have my kids one week to ending it and just walking away as if it didn't matter. I mean she cried but then finding her on dating sites active even while we were together, that brings the BPD part in. For me at least. Stating that she wasn't on there to date just read the emails. And that she paid for three months when we met so why not? Never once seeing how I was feeling during all this. Okay, she is BPD.

Yes exactly. Mine went from begging me to marry him in a months time... .to telling me he was living in a delusion and bringing out the old faithful line of "I can't be who you need me to be." One face is sweet, vulnerable, loving, and kind... .the other... .dark, angry, bitter, and cold... .But both impulsive. Yet, never once did he call me a name... .never once did he drink alcohol... .never once did raise his voice.

I think we really really have to be careful because the "classic" "textbook" versions of disorders are not representative of reality or individuals. I really think if it were called Emotional Dysregulation Disorder it would be better named. But emotional dysregulation doesn't have to be loud or outward.

[toddinrochester]

Its so incredibly complicated!

[Blistex]

From my understanding, a personality disorder affects all aspects of their life.  Not just a single relationship.

An example of the opposite would be an abusive person who targets their spouse, but in all other areas are high performing.

With the pd, however it shows up in finances, relationships with family, friends, jobs, goals, selfies, social media, ect.

Also, I have read that the partner of a pd does not necessarily have to be a co-dependent.  The partner could be simply a really nice person but through trauma bonding and fog is unable to leave.

And as well, a co-dependent could also show up in relationships with family, friends, jobs, goals, ect. 

both pd and co-dependency generally show up in other areas - not isolated to one person.

And yes the dance of an emeshed person with a pd is toxic.  And that emeshed person can be a child, parent, spouse.  It's the emeshment I think that is dangerous... .as most people get sucked in and lose their identities/boundaries as they merge with toxic pd.

At least that how it was explained to me.

[toddinrochester]

Well Blistex, she did say I was the "Nicest guy that she ever met". "You are so good to me I don't deserve you". Maybe I am that super nice guy. I am still going to explore the co-dependency stuff.

[Moselle]

In the FOG, it all seems to be confused and muddled up, BPD, NPD co-dependence.

I think in this type of dysfunctional relationship, we start to exhibit and mirror traits from all three.

Mine is extremely highly functioning and no - one but immediately family would ever know.

[Tangy]

In the FOG, it all seems to be confused and muddled up, BPD, NPD co-dependence.

I think in this type of dysfunctional relationship, we start to exhibit and mirror traits from all three.

I agree with this 100%

[toddinrochester]

Mine was incredibly high functioning. She has a Doctorate and is incredibly intelligent. I am pretty sure she is aware of her disorder. I will never know. We both shared the same addictive past (adderall abuse and drinking problems) it made it our clicking easier. We didn't have to worry about our pasts. I miss her just writing this. I really do miss her. I can't wait to be through this. Its almost a month since I last saw her and I am starting to forget little things like the sound of her voice... .This truly is the disorder from hell. Leaves nothing but pain in its wake.

[Mutt]

We didn't have to worry about our pasts.

Leaves nothing but pain in its wake.

It sounds like both of you may of been soothing emotional wounds from your pasts.

[toddinrochester]

Well both having the same dependency issues in the past makes it easier. I am currently able to drink and also take medicine for my add without abuse and have been for years.  So, possibly, but there is more to it.

[Mutt]

I can relate. These break-ups can be incredibly painful from wounds that are ruptured that aren't necessarily because of our ex partners, they may of been there long before that. I'll give you advice that my T gave to me when I was grieving, stay away from alcohol and drugs.

[Moselle]

Mine was incredibly high functioning. She has a Doctorate and is incredibly intelligent. I am pretty sure she is aware of her disorder.

Yes i believe the highly functioning ones are aware. Then they quickly and conveniently "forget" 

I think they are also more dangerous because they'll do anything to maintain the perfect and manicured facade by blaming their target very convincingly, using all that brain matter.

Bizarre disorder. Mine acted dumb and lowly for 15 years claiming i was the bright  one with all the qualifications. When it all started unravelling I confronted her one day and said "You are far more intelligent than I am, aren't you? "  She gave me a haunted and frightening smile and said "Yes"!

[cyclistIII]

You know. I wish I could look her in the face right now and just tell her that it wasn't all her. I own half the gas of this fire. I won't get that chance, but it is my wish right now... .

Todd, I'm confused. I've seen you post similar sentiments multiple times, and I think it's great that you are getting support for co-dependency, but what is it you want to take half of the "blame" for? It sounds like she just up and left, going from 100% to 0% suddenly and without warning (which is exactly what my guy did). How do you share the blame for that? I think it's more that your co-dependency made you more vulnerable to being sucked into this relationship... .it's a subtle difference but could be important to how you feel about yourself... .I mean, I don't know if the relationship itself was tumultuous or if you did things that were less than perfect or whatever, but it may not have mattered; the disorder is a fear of intimacy, not a fear of fighting or conflict or anything like that.

[toddinrochester]

Cyclist. You are correct. It ended pretty abruptly. I treated her better than anyone has. I wasn't really doing anything special, I just appreciated her. Where I take some of the blame is that she mirrored what I needed. I needed the super fast love and the commitment and all that goes along with it. If I was healthier with my co-dependency, I am assuming this relationship would have stopped when I saw the red flags (that are so clear AFTER the fact, isn't that a sad truth... .). So I own my escalation. She owns the rest but I am comfortable in saying that she made promises that I needed to hear and the relationship was so strong so fast because I also needed that. I don't know. Just my thoughts really.

[Moselle]

I am comfortable in saying that she made promises that I needed to hear and the relationship was so strong so fast because I also needed that.

Toddinrochester I am on a similar journey.

I am determined not to repeat the pattern and I realise I need to ask a similar question to these:

Why did you need those promises? Why did you need a strong fast relationship?

[Tangy]

I am comfortable in saying that she made promises that I needed to hear and the relationship was so strong so fast because I also needed that.

Toddinrochester I am on a similar journey.

I am determined not to repeat the pattern and I realise I need to ask a similar question to these:

Why did you need those promises? Why did you need a strong fast relationship?

I also am in the same boat. I get into trouble though because I can be super condemning about it. I don't always ask these questions with curiosity and concern... .I ask them with shame and blame and anger toward myself and I think I need to be careful about that. Do either of your struggle with that?

If I'm compassionate with myself I can say I am in need to hear the promises so fast because I have been starved for deep love and affection early on. And then validate my need, but understand that as an adult I can find healthier ways that will REALLY actually meet the need ... because heaven knows the promises he made didn't. Right now I am primarily finding connection with my friends and feeling the love that comes a long with it. It hasn't quenched my deep hole of need, but I know I am working toward recovery. And I know connecting with him again would probably undo the progress I've made by giving me a false sense of completeness and connection and that I'd have to start all over if I went back for more fast promises.

Since we've discussed that these relationships can be like an addiction, I'd like to share a quote I came across: "the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection"

And I think that's what we are truly looking for. We just need to connect with ourselves so that we can make meaningful genuine connections with others. And I say "just" lightly because it's a process.

[toddinrochester]

Moselle. I needed to hear those things because. Love. The feeling, the excitement, everything about it. I want it, I am ready to share my life with someone after years of overcoming things. She was what I needed when I needed it and I had every intention of spending my life with this person. Love is a crazy thing either perceived or actual, I can't tell the difference and I want it. I need to come to terms with that.

[cyclistIII]

I get into trouble though because I can be super condemning about it. I don't always ask these questions with curiosity and concern... .I ask them with shame and blame and anger toward myself and I think I need to be careful about that. Do either of your struggle with that?

That's exactly what I was getting at -- I absolutely know that there is a reason I was drawn to this relationship, and I need to look at those broken parts of myself, but I try to do it with self-compassion and without blame and to think of it as a learning experience going forward... .

[nolisan]

There is another term that gave me some understanding of our r/s dynamics: counter-dependancy. Basically the flip side of codependency. It's natural (but unhealthy and dangerous) for the two to hook up - like moths to a flame - both get burnt.

Here's an introduction:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/theory-knowledge/201404/signs-counter-dependency

[cyclistIII]

Hey, my T brought up counter-dependency as well, and the concept really resonated with me. Is that a relatively new term?

[Tangy]

Hey, my T brought up counter-dependency as well, and the concept really resonated with me. Is that a relatively new term?

I watch a lot of videos by Familytreecounseling on youtube... .and that is the first time I ever heard the term as well. This was the only other time I've ever heard anyone use it.

[Herodias]

Ross Rosenberg on U Tube as well... .He says that the core of the co-dependant and the BPD/NPD is the attraction... .the human magnet! Like attracts like. It also makes the pulling apart harder, like a drug addiction to recover from. We want to be needed and help people- it gives us purpose. They want us to help them- it gives them "supply"... .We are two half people who come together to form one. Which does not make a relationship (a couple). It makes sense... .We need to to the work and reparent ourselves and learn to live with ourselves before we can be a whole self and be part of a healthy couple. Stinks, but we will repeat patterns just as they do, if we don't work on ourselves. It's learned behavior from upbringing.