Why do we take pleasure in verbal attacks with our partner?

[TooRational]

I'm wondering why we somehow seem to take pleasure in verbally attacking our partner. Things like pointing out flaws time and time again, arguing about stuff, etc. You know what I'm talking about, we basically allow ourselves to treat our partner in a way that we would never treat any other person. We know it's wrong but somehow we still do it.

I've been (over) analyzing my failed r/s and about a year ago, my exW and I were having a very rough patch. We were very stressed out by life and we would release our poison on each other. Little hurtful sneaky comments here and there. We had a toxic r/s. Yet, we continued. This behavior, however destructive it might have been, was somehow providing some pleasure or some kind of relief, otherwise why did we do it?

So that's my open question for discussion. Why do we feel a strong urge to verbally attack our partner and why do we get pleasure from that kind of behavior? Pleasure might be too strong a word but what I mean is we get some kind of benefit our of it, otherwise we would stop, no?

[enlighten me]

I think when we are hurt we want to hurt back.

Fight or flight. It gets to a point when flight isn't working that fight takes over.

For me it was that I hated the injustice of it. I hated the wrongs that I was accused of. Im sure that there was a lot to do with my own insecurities and fears that what was being said may actually be true.

[Mr Hollande]

Personally I took no pleasure in the verbal abuse during the relationship. It was pretty one sided as in her not me anyway. After is a different matter. It's to get even. Whether we achieve that or not and what is the point is definitely a good topic to debate.

I make no bones about wanting to give mine a few kicks. Even at my angriest I understood that telling her exactly what's on my mind was not the way to do it. It would only confirm that she still had a hold on me, and worse, didn't care. I've tried to apply a colder and more surgical approach. Phone rings and it's her, I say nothing and put it down. She sends a text or a message on FB, I don't open it. She calls and begs me to not put the phone down, I listen, then reiterate I want nothing to do with her and put the phone down. It's a game of revenge and whether I've played it well enough I don't know with certainty. I hope my response or non response has caused her discomfort at least.

Probably the harshest thing I said to her was that she's sick and she hurts the ones who love her. It's true. That's the sum of her life in the end. I'd be hit very hard if someone said that to me and I understood it was true. Whether she understood or cared I can't know for sure.

I would say that raging and letting them have both barrels more than likely won't have a desired effect. From my experience silence, coldness and indifference are the best weapons.

Hitting back feels good. If that is the game you want to play. Some do, some don't. I did for a while and I don't regret it but it has a sell by date. At some point it has to end.

[Michelle27]

I also took no pleasure in it.  Early on when the raging started, I was so confused and tried everything and when logic didn't work, I resorted to yelling back in hopes of being heard.  Very quickly, I realized this wasn't me and I started working on validation and when even that didn't always work to head off a rage, I began detaching from the relationship.  During the detaching, I'm not proud of some of my actions, but I know it was part of the process and I'm in a great place now which is wonderful.  I realize my own part now and I've begun changing those things in me that caused me to allow myself and my girls to be subjected to the chaos I did.  No more. 

[TooRational]

Ok, maybe I'm the only one feeling that way. I'm trying to make sense of why we engage in hurtful behaviors.

It probably has to do with "getting back" at someone. As someone said, if we get hurt, then we want to fight back. Fight is the right word here, with a winner and a loser. It feels good to "win" with retaliation, but we create a "loser" in the process. Sure, we win arguments, we win the "oral debate". But we lose our relationship in the process... .

Anyway, there's no right or wrong answer here. It's just interesting to me to reflect on why we engage in such behaviors, hopefully to prevent them in the future.

[Mutt]

Hi TooRational,

I also took no pleasure in it.  Early on when the raging started, I was so confused and tried everything and when logic didn't work, I resorted to yelling back in hopes of being heard.  Very quickly, I realized this wasn't me and I started working on validation and when even that didn't always work to head off a rage, I began detaching from the relationship.  :)uring the detaching, I'm not proud of some of my actions, but I know it was part of the process and I'm in a great place now which is wonderful.  I realize my own part now and I've begun changing those things in me that caused me to allow myself and my girls to be subjected to the chaos I did.  No more.  

I share Michell27's sentiments. I didn't know about BPD in the marriage, I learned about it after the relationship broke. I learned the communications tools for the sake of the kids, and I would like to add that radical acceptance makes things easier with co-parenting post break-up.

[Sadly]

Hi

I didn't get any pleasure out of it or satisfaction. It took 10 months of being trodden on, humiliated, demoralised and yet applying as much understanding because of his BPD as I possibly could, and I finally snapped this weekend, much good it did me. NOT. I was horrified to hear the words I shouted at him, that wasn't me. I even opened the car door and tried to get out as we were moving. I was then officially classed and proved his point that I am the crazy one ! I went into a sort of fugue state, after that, went in on myself, shut down, followed him around an antique fair in the cold pouring rain, had no idea what I was doing and finally was physically sick. The mental torture from him continued all night and into the early morning before I could get into my car and escape. I don't like what I have become, have no respect for myself and truly hated the person I became when I shouted my anguish and desperation to his face. We are all different I guess. x

[Gonzalo]

I never enjoyed the arguments, and they weren't really back and forth verbal attacks so much as a string of shouting and accusations at me. At first I'd respond by trying to talk through and fix things, later I'd end up shouting and arguing back quicker and quicker, but it never turned into what I'd consider cutting her down. It was never fun for me, it was just extremely draining and confusing (I sometimes get 'grumpy tone' or snap, if I'm in a bad mood, but shouting is not me). There were times when I wanted to cut her down verbally, but I didn't do it and would have felt bad at trying to hurt her. There were some times when I tried to deal with problems honestly that she took as attacks (it's kind of easy to turn a discussion about 'I have a problem with the fact that I'm paying all the bills and you keep trying to get me to spend more' into me just being mean, after all).

[once removed]

its a very good discussion, toorational. i agree with others. there are some very hurt (some very recently) folks here. it can take time before self reflection can take place and anger can dissipate. before i learned about BPD, my strategy could be summed up by trying to paint my ex black. i felt something was wrong with me for having the feelings i felt. i learned about BPD, and felt compassion and understanding for myself and my ex, which eased me toward self reflection. at that point i realized that telling yourself something is wrong with your feelings and trying to paint someone black to ease your pain is not healthy or mature coping. it took time.


SELF-AWARE: Painting your ex black - healthy or unhealthy?

[Sadly]

I don't want to fight back, I don't want to fight at all. I don't like shouting or being shouted at. I just want to be loved and cherished in return. I know I am a kind loving gentle person. I don't understand shouty people. I don't understand revenge stuff. Why have I been so deceived and turned into a monster who shouted and swore and tried to jump out of a moving car. Do people really get satisfaction from screaming and shouting and hurting people. I'm lost with it all. I'm too old to be that naïve, what the hell is going on?

[zundertowz]

I fought back during 2 periods of our relationship, during the idealization phase there were 3 or 4 times when she felt unloved over some small slight and would break down literally like a 3 year old child, this was shocking to me as I had never seen a adult act this way, and towards the end of our relationship my ex became verbally and physically abusive she also started to threaten me with false abuse allegations.  I think subconsciously the last few months I just wanted to make sure all bridges were burned and there would be no more recycle attempts.  After 3 years of living with her I was a depressed anxiety ridden disaster.  I wish I had been able to handle myself better in the end but I think my behavior validated what she was saying about me and kept her away from me in the future. 

[TooRational]

Thanks everyone for your comments, keep them coming.

Sadly: I also don't like fighting. In fact, I'm a people pleaser and try to avoid fights in my daily life as much as I can, to the point that I sometimes get taken advantage of. For example, I should have sued the previous owners of our house for hidden defects but I didn't because I don't like fights. I don't like to have enemies or having people angry at me. It stresses me out.

Anyhow, what puzzles me is how I became a different person with my ex. We rarely had huge fights but we often said little hurtful comments to each other. The combination of our relationship and the kids made me very stressed and much less patient than I used to be. I started becoming mean to my ex and yes, somehow it felt good to argue and convince myself that I was right. I felt some kind of relief in the process, even though I was hurting my wife. This is what I'm trying to understand.

In a way it might be similar to school bullies. They enjoy putting others down. Maybe that example is too extreme, I never considered myself a bully but when I reflect back on how I treated my ex, I feel like that. Granted, she wasn't an angel herself (I'm suspecting BPD, which is why I'm here) but still, that doesn't excuse my own behavior.

[Mr Hollande]

I can relate to that TooRational. After my first BPD ex (15+ years ago), without going into too much detail, I looked back on myself and I didn't know who that person was. I didn't like him. All the arguing, the nastiness and the self loathing. He's inside there somewhere but I hope I don't meet him again.

[Skip]

Great self-awareness question.

I'm wondering why we somehow seem to take pleasure in verbally attacking our partner. Things like pointing out flaws time and time again, arguing about stuff, etc. You know what I'm talking about, we basically allow ourselves to treat our partner in a way that we would never treat any other person. We know it's wrong but somehow we still do it.

Is it pleasure or poor conflict skills (drama orientation) and feelings of futility?

Fjelstad would suggest the former.

According to psychologist Margalis Fjelstad, PhD, in order to stay out of drama, we need to stop taking on the roles of victim, rescuer  or persecutor. Sounds easy enough? It may not be. If we are predispositioned to get into drama triangles from our upbringing, we will most likely have some well-ingrained thinking patterns that will need to be replaced with healthier ones. Refuse to be Superior or Inferior All of these roles requires one person to be superior, right, good, and better than the other person, while the other person has to be inferior, wrong, bad and worse. This one-up/one-down game has to be stopped in order for you to stop having a drama filled relationship. Fjelstad says you have to be willing to stop playing the superior/inferior game to stay out of drama triangles.

Almost all conflict interactions with a person with Borderline Personality Disorder traits (BPD) or Narcissistic Personality Disorder traits (NPD) are based on who is better than/worse than, right/wrong, deserving of blame/deserving of defense, who gets more/gets less, who does more/does less, etc.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

Gottman would suggest the latter.

Most people find conflict and contempt to be stressful and react to such conditions by entering the third stage of breakdown, characterized by partner's increasingly defensive behavior. Men in particular (but women too) become hardened by the chronicity of the ongoing conflict, and may react even more acutely during moments when conflict is most heated by becoming overwhelmed and "flooded"; a condition which is psychologically and emotionally quite painful. Over time, partners learn to expect that they are 'gridlocked'; that they cannot resolve their differences, and that any attempts at resolution will result in further overwhelm, hurt or disappointment.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

To anyone reading... .does any of this sound like you?

[Mr Hollande]

... .any attempts at resolution will result in further overwhelm, hurt or disappointment.

Isn't that the recurring theme when dealing with our exes? Both during the r/s and after. Especially after.

[Gonzalo]

Feelings of futility is what did it for me. I'm definitely not predisposed towards dramatic conflicts, I don't like them at all and not wanting to make drama is part of why I put up with stuff for so long. But I definitely hit the stage of breaking down into defensive behavior and believing that there was no way to resolve our differences.

[Mutt]

I relate with Margalis Fjelstad, PhD and poor conflict skills from my childhood and my marriage suffered. We were constantly engaged in one-upmanship and trying to prove each other wrong. My marriage taught me a lesson that I don't have to be right all of the time and that we all have our own perspectives / opinions and to respect others point of view.

[enlighten me]

Thinking about his more I never felt pleasure from arguing with my ex. What I did feel though was relief.

After biting my lip and trying to discuss things calmly which invariably ended up with her getting louder and louder until she was screaming at me I think that eventually the pressure built up and had to be released.

I never got any satisfaction from arguing. I know there was a lot of adrenaline as afterwards I would get the shakes which Ive had before. I also guess there was some relief from not waiting for it to happen as it already had.

[TooRational]

enlighten me: Yes, relief is perhaps a better word than pleasure.

Skip: interesting extracts, thanks for posting. I can relate more to the latter. Any attempts at resolution will result in further overwhelm, hurt or disappointment. Yes, absolutely. At the worst point, my ex admitted to me that everything I was doing to try to salvage our r/s was annoying to her. Reading books, trying to seek help from couples therapy, trying to "diagnose" her, online research, etc. All of that was aggravating to her.