Who deserves love and compassion in the eyes of a person with BPD?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Thinking about my ex partner with BPD with narcissistic traits, there still is something I cannot understand. (I know that I'll never be able to understand everything but there is no need for that anyway.) He preached love and compassion all the time. I'm not using the word "preach" to look down on his words or to discredit them because of his hurtful behaviours. But he mentioned these a lot and almost lectured about them at every opportunity - with younger females people mentored online. They would talk about their weekend and tidying up their bedrooms and he would respond with the love and compassion text. Whenever anyone just mentioned anything about human behaviour, this would come up - but just this.

Anyway, I know that over the course of years there have been many people in his life who treated him with love and compassion. They treated him respecfully and I assume expected some respect back. I also now that some disappeared from his life or some limited their communications with him.

However, his love and compassion talk about his past never included these people. He never remembered them this way. At best, they were these unimportant people mentioned in passing. In regards to his past, he chooses to be loving and compassionate to people who he says hurt him really really badly - these are his exes that cheated on him many times, that played him etc. and caused him great anguish - perhaps because of his fear of abandonment, I don't know. At other times, he would admit his wrongdoings to these hurtful exes and say he felt guilty towards them as well. Maybe that's why he was now loving and compassionate. However, at the same time, he would say really denigrating things about them, which weren't loving or compassionate at all. His one or two male friends get no compassion but constant badmouthing.

In his world love and compassion seems to be related with something else, but I cannot figure out what.

What do you think this is?

     

[thisworld]

Thinking about my ex partner with BPD with narcissistic traits, there still is something I cannot understand. (I know that I'll never be able to understand everything but there is no need for that anyway.) He preached love and compassion all the time. I'm not using the word "preach" to look down on his words or to discredit them because of his hurtful behaviours. But he mentioned these a lot and almost lectured about them at every opportunity - with younger females people mentored online. They would talk about their weekend and tidying up their bedrooms and he would respond with the love and compassion text. Whenever anyone just mentioned anything about human behaviour, this would come up - but just this.

Anyway, I know that over the course of years there have been many people in his life who treated him with love and compassion. They treated him respecfully and I assume expected some respect back. I also now that some disappeared from his life or some limited their communications with him.

However, his love and compassion talk about his past never included these people. He never remembered them this way. At best, they were these unimportant people mentioned in passing. In regards to his past, he chooses to be loving and compassionate to people who he says hurt him really really badly - these are his exes that cheated on him many times, that played him etc. and caused him great anguish - perhaps because of his fear of abandonment, I don't know. At other times, he would admit his wrongdoings to these hurtful exes and say he felt guilty towards them as well. Maybe that's why he was now loving and compassionate. However, at the same time, he would say really denigrating things about them, which weren't loving or compassionate at all. His one or two male friends get no compassion but constant badmouthing.

In his world love and compassion seems to be related with something else, but I cannot figure out what.

What do you think this is?

     

[steelwork]

Maybe "love and compassion" for him are a kind of stiff-arming? Like, a way of putting himself above people who he feels have hurt him?

Or maybe, simply put, it's a way of distancing himself from his real feelings. To some degree see myself doing this. If someone hurts me, my first reaction is to feel what I'm feeling. That is almost immediately supplanted by a need to take their perspective--which is of course fine, except that in my case it's a way of avoiding my real reaction, which feels like self-pity to me.

My shrink pointed this tendency out to me. She asked, "What would it feel like to just be angry with X or sad about what X did to you instead of taking up their cause?"

My answer was that it felt shameful.

[C.Stein]

Love and compassion.  It is easy to speak of it but another thing altogether to practice it.  

There were many instances where my ex would fish for reasons why I loved her.  She needed to affirmation of her good qualities.  She needed to know I saw her in a positive light.    She would also claim to have characteristics that perhaps she didn't quite believe she had.  In this way she was trying to convince herself that she possessed these characteristics.  The more she said it the more she could believe it was true.  Yet when it came time for her to demonstrate these characteristics she couldn't, or at least struggled with it.

Perhaps this is what your ex was doing too.  By constantly "preaching" love and compassion he was trying to convince himself (and others) that he possessed these qualities, but somewhere inside he questioned if he really did.  What do you think?

[La Carotte]

Or maybe, simply put, it's a way of distancing himself from his real feelings. To some degree see myself doing this. If someone hurts me, my first reaction is to feel what I'm feeling. That is almost immediately supplanted by a need to take their perspective--which is of course fine, except that in my case it's a way of avoiding what feels like self-pity to me.


Gosh, shambles, I've never thought about this but I do exactly the same. I always just assumed I was a quite nice person trying to be empathetic and generous. Need to think further on this.

Doesn't answer your question, thisworld, sorry. I don't think I can answer except to say that my ex is exactly the same as you are describing, exactly. It's something I've always found difficult.  In fact, ex actually does motivational life coaching with a wide range of people as part of their job, and runs training courses about dealing with lifes challenges with loving non violent communication, has won accolades for their work and has a large following on FB, all of whom believe that ex is such an inspiration and try to be like them. For real. As you can imagine, when I've been on the daily receiving end of every type of negativity possible, and emotional, verbal and physical abuse and intimidation, it's been quite hard to stomach at times... .

FIT

[steelwork]

Gosh, shambles, I've never thought about this but I do exactly the same. I always just assumed I was a quite nice person trying to be empathetic and generous. Need to think further on this.

I think both things can be true: you are empathetic and generous. Those are skills one learns, usually in childhood, and sometimes they are HIGHLY developed as a way to deal with abuse or neglect.

I guess, for me, the goal is to be open to both my feelings AND my ability to empathize.

[thisworld]

Thank you everyone, your comments have helped a lot. And I think they are all applicable when it comes to my ex. I have felt similar things in his other reactions to life and people in general. It's sad that this "compassion" and "love" have a functional role, they are not given away freely or selflessly.

Shambles, thank you for your insight. I think we all do this to a degree (especially if we experienced invalidation a lot during childhood). In my ex's situation, maybe it was a way of saying "look, I'm not hurt. I so not hurt that I'm even loving and compassionate." (Not that it resulted in any coherent action).

FIT, yes, it was so hard to stomach, and it always gave me a bad hair day I think

C.Stein, yes, yes, yes, I know what you mean. He was such a "marketer" of what he thought were good values. Like, from the first day on, he started doing my head with "loyalty". "I'm a very loyal person, I'm a very loyal person." He always said almost with a newly found happiness on his face - like this was not an internalized value. I found this somehow boyish and even cute - albeit slightly eerie. (He isn't and he doesn't accept that there is something called emotional cheating. Actually, he didn't even "allow" me to have negative feelings when I caught him completely dissing me to his ex - and through lies about my sexuality actually:) He physically attacked me!)

And here is the insight from my low-grade narcissistic mother. (Now that I'm not a spring chicken myself and have better boundaries, I think the woman is hilarious sometimes  )

So I tell this situation to her and she says "Yeah, what else was he going to say, he wouldn't say these are my decade old fallback ladies and we will turn your life into hell, would he? He found the best way to make you shut up and suffer." So she thinks, this was simply an explanation serving to make me jealous and insert these females into our lives.

So it seems that we shall be eternally very innocent compared to some people. (Luckily my mother's damage has been limited to me:))

   

[Mutt]

My ex wife suffers from severe mental illness, she has more negative feelings than positive ones, she feels emotions more intensely, she has chronic feelings of shame, lacks impulse control and cannot regulate her emotions. She's also not always dysregulated or unstable and I have seen her display compassion for friends, family and strangers.

[thisworld]

Mutt, hi,

Of course people with severe mental disorders display compassion towards others.  I also know that people who experience severe pain and trouble are capable of showing compassion in so many areas the society chooses to turn a blind eye on because they have delved into darker sides of the human condition. I also believe that not showing compassion does not mean a person doesn't feel it. My question, however, was not whether my ex partner was capable of compassion or not. It is rather why, while expressing this compassion, he somehow related it only with people who caused him great anguish. His friends who didn't give him anguish or people who forgave him for his big time transgressions did not get one good word told about themselves, it was rather like "ha, do you know what I did to X (with a smile). Shambles and C.Stein have some explanations, what do you think?

[once removed]

My question, however, was not whether my ex partner was capable of compassion or not. It is rather why, while expressing this compassion, he somehow related it only with people who caused him great anguish.

the term that kept coming to mind as i read this thread was "martyr complex" (how great a person you are is proportional to the amount of abuse you have tolerated, or are willing to tolerate, more or less). i can loosely relate having done it a bit myself in past relationships, and others i have been in relationships with having done it to me. seems to me it includes elements of triangulation.

this might be a stretch, but i get the feeling he picked up the "love and compassion" theme from somewhere or someone.

[thisworld]

Wow, onceremoved, thank you so much for this. I can so see this in my ex partner, it's almost like our life together is unfolding in front of my eyes in a new chapter:)) I can see traces of what shambles says, C.Stein's idea is obviously there, too. But this, I think I've seen this more times than I can remember now. I agree with elements of triangulation both because of participants included - he triangulated with them but I never connected the two-  and their consequent role in our life. Also because how this was introduced to me like a notice from day one - as soon as we started living together although it had never come up before. Also, I trust my gut and reacted to these people negatively (in my emotions) - this doesn't happen to me when there's not a triangulation. 

Aand, I think you are so right in your last guess as well! He so picked themes like that, about spirituality, alternative spirituality(?), healing etc. But he never worked on those himself (I know that he hasn't read a single book on these), just kind of mentored people through hearsay.

It's kind of sad, a life that I thought was unique to us (good or bad, you know) and now it's something that can be traced like this.

Thank you for your comments.   

[troisette]

Mine was like a child actor, he'd learnt the script but sometimes forgot his lines. He knew how adults respond and would mimic this but sometimes slipped up.

He could be compassionate (well, I think he could... .) when the other person's dilemma was at a distance, if the compassion required no active involvement on his part, and if they bought in to the persona he projected. But others, who had seen through him, received no compassion, just harsh criticism.

He showed compassion when he thought it would help his image. I'm not sure if it was authentic or not. A big eye opener for me was the way he treated his pet. Leaving her for months at a time in an empty house with a neighbour feeding her once a day. He said "she's only an animal".

I am also thinking particularly about his ex wife and his older son. His ex wife will not conform to his wish to be friends and his son has severe emotional problems and has been nc with his father for several years. Both deserve compassion due to aspects of their lives that do not involve my ex but he has no sympathy for them and his condemnation of them is harsh.

So I think it might have been linked with control on his part. But that's only a guess. He is a skilled manipulator.

[thisworld]

Troisette, so true. So many times, I felt that he was acting, too. And child actor is so spot on  Did yo get a strange feeling when he did it? There was a certain boyishness to him when he did it in a crowd but it would be a bit more eerie when we were alone. I sometimes notice this in narcissists too, but he wasn't as controlled as a narcissist I think. I got this feeling that he was mimicking.

About compassion, you are so right.

[troisette]

Absolutely this world. He was childlike in many ways, some people found it beguiling.

And yes, I did get a strange feeling, slightly uncomfortable. He needed validation and approval - just like a child and was smart enough to know how to get it by covert means.

Strangely, I was only thinking about it today - remembering a card he received from a former job. A hand drawn cartoon of a baby boy, with a photo of his face inserted. That was disconcerting to remember... .he has a childlike face. As if the experience of normal adulthood has passed him by. I believe this is not unusual for BPDs.

I also think he has narcissistic tendencies. Craving attention but getting it by subtle means, concealed grandiosity. So not NPD but definite tendencies I think.

He's painting now and gets plaudits from his friends. But I thought his work lazy and superficial but have not spoken of my view because it seemed unkind. A close friend of mine who is a very talented artist described his work as "soulless" - designed to get attention but with no feeling or gut passion. He commented that he's only painting to acquire "groupies". Wow. That really struck a chord. Sometimes other people see things much more clearly than we can.

So maybe he was showing "compassion" for the same reason?

[thisworld]

Troisette,

You and shambles dated my guy Mine is into art, too but what he does is very repetitive. Almost like following a pattern, a strict method. He is also described by some people as a child-man (especially by another partner who I believe has BPD, too:)) I'm an intovert myself and socialize with a completely different cognitive set. So I thought, ha, maybe this is part of his extroversion. I shouldn't be judgmental:)) However, he was very limiting and controlling when it came to other social things (almost like shy, insecure but hiding it and trying to appear indifferent. And again, I think he was very shy - but again hiding it- around other males. He also has narcissistic tendencies. I saw this from very early on - being the child of a narc mom- but not until we were "official". At first I even encouraged him a little bit. He is not a high functioning person - actually, he barely functions- and has lost many things in life. So I thought, yes, everybody needs affirmation and maybe these are his things. I said maybe, being with a loving and encouraging person will make him feel better. As soon as we started co-habiting, one of the first things I heard -in addition to love and compassion exes- was "you don't mind me having these younger groupies online, do you?"  This, from a man constantly reminding me how loyal he is - he was the one who wanted a monogamous, exclusive relationship, insisting on it. I said Ok then let's give it a try, and the rest is epic:)) 

[troisette]

Yes, and yes again!

Mine was also controlling about who we socialised with. It had to be his friends, who although in their sixties, acted like children. So he felt comfortable with them. He was strangely rigid, out of his comfort zone when with my friends although the life and soul when he was with his.

He also was very flirty with the women in his group, very touchy feely and they, married or unmarried, loved it.

It didn't bother me at first but as time went on it became more overt and I began to wonder if he was doing it on purpose to make me jealous. He succeeded.

One woman in particular seemed to think they had a special bond. I watched them dance together once, he made it an exhibition dance and everyone  applauded at the end. I had retired to the kitchen, he came looking for me, disappointed that I wasn't part of the audience - as I was meant to be... .Thereafter whenever she left a phone message she prefaced it with the opening bars of the song they  danced to. I got fed up with listening, over and over, to her voice singing as he ran through his messages. When I commented he said he thought it was funny. Another groupie!

But he also needed time alone, as if to recharge his social battery. It was as if he donned a charm overcoat when we went out. The memories I do value are of the evenings we spent alone, cooking a meal, watching a dvd with a bottle of wine. That's when he seemed to relax.

And yes, I too encouraged him. He told me that if he had met me when we were young his whole life would have been different because he would have had more confidence. But then he didn't value my support and encouragement, constantly testing it with other women until I called it a day.

Very sad... .

Strange how similar they are! And I suppose if they are not in touch with their own feelings, if they feel empty, that's why they can't produce heartfelt paintings?

[thisworld]

"Strange how similar they are! And I suppose if they are not in touch with their own feelings, if they feel empty, that's why they can't produce heartfelt paintings?"

For a NPD, maybe. For "mine" though, maybe he simply lacked talent I know that sometimes - when he wasn't manipulating- he could feel deeply, even if sadness for himself. These feelings were deep although I, someone with a different emotional palette, sometimes felt that they did not cohere with some other feelings or were never filtered or soothed through some other tools like thought, maturity, acceptance, grief, responsibility, empathy for others, morals, ethics. They existed like individual, disconnected "units" not affected by anything else. And always tainted with entitlement.

Good moments you describe are very similar to those of ours. However, with so much "threatening" behaviour outside -in regard to other females- I wonder whether this was because I felt safe at home. Systematic invalidation and narcissistic manipulations - about my position as a woman in an intimate relationship- affect me emotionally even though I would describe myself as a more or less confident woman. Although I find yourself pretty attractive, found the manipulations childish etc, I got sensitized because naturally, I was not the only component of the relationship and that attention to others was invalidating. Maybe home felt safe because of this. I don't know. BUt it's certainly an effect of emotional abuse, resenting to go somewhere with my partner sometimes. 

[troisette]

"I wonder whether this was because I felt safe at home. Systematic invalidation and narcissistic manipulations - about my position as a woman in an intimate relationship- affect me emotionally even though I would describe myself as a more or less confident woman. Although I find yourself pretty attractive, found the manipulations childish etc, I got sensitized because naturally, I was not the only component of the relationship and that attention to others was invalidating. Maybe home felt safe because of this. I don't know. BUt it's certainly an effect of emotional abuse, resenting to go somewhere with my partner sometimes."

Soo true this world. I found myself making excuses not to go... .I'd rather be at home than listening to the shrills and his fawning over them.

I wonder if our exe's could be another sub-group?