I somehow, without meaning to, have set "talking" as a line in the sand [Part 2]

[patientandclear]

... .have you explored other opportunities, dated other men in the three year NC span?

AT, I'd date someone else if someone else interesting materialized anywhere on my horizon.  I'm a 49 year old woman and I gotta say, it's a rough passage to be my gender and my age.  Men my age who are emotionally available as I define that (see my note above about the non-monogamist I briefly dated) are mostly trying to make the choices they made earlier, work out.  Others are able to choose much younger women and often want to.  I'm sure there are a few exceptions.  I don't meet them very often.  Also, I'm not really into companionship for the sake of companionship; it has to add something and it has to be interesting to be worth the trouble.  So, this may develop but it's far from certain.

Your point about some low level contact being the doorway ... .yeah, actually, that's what I thought I was doing when I got back in touch with him a few months back.  Hard to explain just how adept this person is at converting low level contact into intimate contact.  I feel like a jerk rebuffing every overture.  I would do it that way if he reached out at this point, yes.  But for ME to initiate at that level feels sort of mean.  "Hi, I know you want a really meaningful thing with me, and I'm going to deny you that, but I thought you might want some traces of me on your daily landscape?"  I dunno.  Not sure what the point of that is other than rank manipulation.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[MaybeSo]

Here's the thing.  If this guy were wandering through the world saying he wanted to be free to be non-monogamous, to have open relationships, yeah, I could just say that doesn't work for me.  A man I was somewhat interested in about three years ago presented me with that package.  Easy for me to say no.  What he wants and what I want don't match.

I have now written and said the words "what we need and can give don't match" to this BPD guy in my life quite a few times.  He does not agree.  He does NOT accept that he is a person who can't be monogamous.  Like the guy MaybeSo writes about, my person is saying there IS a woman he will be monogamous with and not react this way to.  He just hasn't met her yet.  Meanwhile, I rock and am awesome and we have an amazing relationship ... .so, let's do this thing!

About two years ago when my and my guy were in a place where we had  nothing to loose, and we were both willing to pull the sheet off the corpse so to speak... .and there was an unusual amount of honesty being shared... .I made the following observation verbally to him: 

You are always looking for the one, that peak experience.  You know at this point that it never lasts, that "the one" is just the fodder of fairly tales... .maybe 10 years ago there may have still been some ignorance about that... .but today, for sure... .you know perfectly well with each new love interest you pursue... .that it will be good in the beginning, but it never lasts. And part of the reason it is so good in the beginning, and part of the reason it is a 'peak experience' is because you are so strongly pushing your belief in love and the idea that there is that one special person out there... .and in each new beginning... .the person who you are with is led to believe they are 'the one'... .directly or indirectly this is strongly communicated... .it is all about finding the one, and being the one. It's all about having that peak experience.  I have often wondered why you keep selling that if you know from experience now that it isn't necessarily true... .and I realize you do that because that IS THE PEAK experience you are after.  If you were to simply tell women... .hey, I'm a great date/friend/lover but I don't do commitment... .you would not achieve the peak experience you are after.  The whole idea of 'the one' is what creates the peak experience you are after for both of you, if only temporarily. So you keep on with that narrative, no matter what.

His response:  Sheepishly... .You're exactly right.  And the fact that you see that so clearly and can be here may mean you really are the one.

My inside voice:  Hmmm... .I don't want to be 'the one'  ... .I want this nonsense to stop.

Afterword:  ah... .No, I wasn't the one.  No one is 'the one'.  But for him... .the fantasy just never stops.     

[HappyNihilist]

 

I decided this spring that rather than being so black and white about it, I should engage and let the back and forth be a learning process for us both.  I'll show up honest and more or less unafraid, and we'll see where we get over time. 

That's a good place to be. Honest and strong, open-minded, and willing to learn and grow.

I don't see this guy as a finished product, I guess, and the "he won't change" thing ... .well, he won't change unless he wants to change.  I can't change him.  But I can be a good reason to consider changing.

I agree that you can be a good reason to consider changing. And I don't doubt that he would like to change - not just for you, but for his own well-being and peace of mind.

It's just that there's a big chasm between 'wanting to change' and 'changing.' A bridge has to be built, and you need to see evidence that the bridge is in fact under construction.

If you were to simply tell women... .hey, I'm a great date/friend/lover but I don't do commitment... .you would not achieve the peak experience you are after.  The whole idea of 'the one' is what creates the peak experience you are after for both of you, if only temporarily. So you keep on with that narrative, no matter what.

Thank you so much for sharing this, MaybeSo.

[MaybeSo]

If I leaned a bit sociopathic (had certain r/s needs but not able to reciprocate, lacked relational empathy) and lived for the attention of smart, passionate women and desired to be thought of as a prize and a bit of a mystery... .but had NO ability to really show up and commit to a real relationship or to be monogomous to anyone... .

I'd come off as this deeply feeling, sometimes angst ridden, thoughtful and passionate romantic who is just looking for the one.

This IS very compelling to a lot of people. Very compelling.  It certainly worked on me.  You can see the emotional/psychological hook that is being laid out here... .am I the one?  Is she the one?  Who will be so special as to break this spell?

I've seen my ex get a huge amount of mileage out of this presentation with a lot of people.

It certainly kept me hooked in for a very, very long time.

I would be very wary of this stuff.  I think in the end,  it offers nothing of substance.

I also think it's highly convenient and highly manipulative.

[1989]

 Hi sweet friend!  You know what I realized while reading through this?  In your, my, and Maybeso's experiences (hanging on for years- because we believed we were the really special one- while they go through new women, only to come running back when that didn't work out as they had hoped), even if they did "choose" us, all it would amount to would be that they finally got tired and decided to SETTLE for us! 

My assumption is the chase will always be better than the person they settled for.  Until the time comes when they are no longer able to attract others, or just simply too old to leave the house, they will not be willing to settle.

Since this is the Staying board, I will encourage you to stay as his "friend" and let go of any hope of being romantic partners.

This reminds me of Mitti's experience when she asked to "talk" and he disappeared on her.

[KateCat]

I know that kind of man. It's hard to hold the hand of anyone who is reaching for the sky just to surrender.

(Whoops, Leonard Cohen moment... .)

[HappyNihilist]

If I leaned a bit sociopathic (had certain r/s needs but not able to reciprocate, lacked relational empathy) and lived for the attention of smart, passionate women and desired to be thought of as a prize and a bit of a mystery... .but had NO ability to really show up and commit to a real relationship or to be monogomous to anyone... .

I'd come off as this deeply feeling, sometimes angst ridden, thoughtful and passionate romantic who is just looking for the one.

This IS very compelling to a lot of people. Very compelling.  It certainly worked on me.  You can see the emotional/psychological hook that is being laid out here... .am I the one?  Is she the one?  Who will be so special as to break this spell?

It certainly worked on me, too.

My exbf has also gotten a lot of mileage out of this. All of his serious exes (and his current fiancée or wife) have been intelligent, creative, passionate women. Every single one. He goes for different angles with the less-serious 'side pieces' (as these are all sex-based, not 'emotional'.

My ex did love having them and me in his life, because of all those good qualities and other things. That didn't mean he ever tried to change to keep them or me in his life.

I would be very wary of this stuff.  I think in the end,  it offers nothing of substance.

I also think it's highly convenient and highly manipulative.

I agree... .I would be wary. At least give yourself some time to come down from the 'I derailed us' mindset.

I just think you're such a lovely, caring, intelligent person, and none of us wants to see you suffering.  

[123Phoebe]

... .have you explored other opportunities, dated other men in the three year NC span?

AT, I'd date someone else if someone else interesting materialized anywhere on my horizon.  

I am so confused   Then why the mutually exclusive talk with pwBPD?  It's okay for you to date, but not for him, because you wouldn't date if he agreed to a commitment?  

[formflier]

  It's hard to hold the hand of anyone who is reaching for the sky just to surrender.

... .

This is classic... put a smile on my face!

FF

[patientandclear]

... .have you explored other opportunities, dated other men in the three year NC span?

AT, I'd date someone else if someone else interesting materialized anywhere on my horizon.  

I am so confused   Then why the mutually exclusive talk with pwBPD?  It's okay for you to date, but not for him, because you wouldn't date if he agreed to a commitment?  

Yes, that's right. If we were on the same page--if he were committed--I'd be committed.

[formflier]

Yes, that's right. If we were on the same page--if he were committed--I'd be committed.

On the one hand... .I get what you are saying... .

Still... .there is part of this that makes the hair on my neck stand up... .and...

Generally... .handing "power" to pwBPD traits is not a good idea... .basing your commitment to a person based on their commitment to you seems like "punting" the ball to them... .and the power with it.

It's kinda a chicken an egg thing... .but I rarely advise people to "wait" on a pwBPD traits to do the right... .or emotionally healthy thing.   In fact... .I can't ever remember giving that advice... .

Anyway... .I'm putting this out there as much for others... .as it is for P&C.

The "non" almost always has to be the one to show leadership... .hopefully the  pwBPD will come along.

FF

[patientandclear]

I hear you but in this one instance I don't think that advice makes sense. The one problem I can say for sure we don't have is that he isn't sure of my commitment. He has no idea I ever dated anyone else but folks, it's been FOUR YEARS since there was any understanding of commitment from him. He has denied he's seen other women but I know that to be untrue. And I've been virtually a nun for all that time. I've definitely "led" the commitment effort here.

Indeed he would probably say that's a barrier. He told me this spring that it's when he thinks I'm not interested in a real r/ship that he can be. I realize that's classic engulfment fear speaking. But me making even more of a point that I'm his for the claiming doesn't seem like a good idea (or very self respecting).

[123Phoebe]

But me making even more of a point that I'm his for the claiming doesn't seem like a good idea (or very self respecting).

No, it doesn't, you're right.

[apollotech]

And I've been virtually a nun for all that time.

P&C,

Another question (Yes, I know, you love me... .right? Lol.) What is your plan if he just continues to refuse the "talk?" Right now, it appears to me that everything is contingent upon him, which means that it's open ended. Do you have an end point in mind?

[Grey Kitty]

Let me see if I get this right.

You would be committed to him if he was committed to you.

(And you haven't really looked very seriously or with any success for anybody else to commit to)

But he won't even talk to you about this sort of issue (commitment/relationship) right now.

And he says he won't commit.

And when he did commit in the past, he broke it.

[patientandclear]

GK--it's more nuanced than that in all points, in ways mostly beyond the scope of this thread. I'm not generally feeling in need of someone to be committed to/with. My reactions to/orientation to this r/s is my only source of puzzlement. I keep doing my best to orient myself to events that happen with this guy and things he tells me. Then he says more stuff or new things happen that make me think what I believed before about what i should or would want to do aren't quite right.

His inability to commit in our case appears to come from past traumatic experiences and fears that arise from those. As far as i know, no one has talked with him about the possibility of dealing with his atypical and shocking reactions. He assumes once he has a funky reaction, it's over. I do wonder if that's something that could make a difference in what is possible with/for him.

Meanwhile, except for this question of the definition of the r/s, we have a pretty nice r/ship. It's not a small thing for either of us to leave behind. I can't lightly conclude that's the right thing to do.

AT: I don't feel the need for a plan. I go about my life and unless one of us shifts our stance, he's not in it. Makes me sad but that's why i'm questioning the line i drew (talking). Seems like a weird way for the whole thing to end.

[Whatwasthat]

Dear P and C   

I'm not at all in a position to offer much help on this. Though I often wonder how you are and hope things are good with you!

I did want to pick up one specific thing though... .

His inability to commit in our case appears to come from past traumatic experiences and fears that arise from those. As far as i know, no one has talked with him about the possibility of dealing with his atypical and shocking reactions.

This isn't quite right is it? I remember you saying that he'd been to therapists to discuss these very reactions... .

I only point that out because I think it's easy to forget the 'bigger picture' sometimes.

I'm so happy to hear that life is going along in a good way for you in most respects!

[123Phoebe]

I'm not generally feeling in need of someone to be committed to/with.

You're not?

His inability to commit in our case appears to come from past traumatic experiences and fears that arise from those.

Have you had past traumatic experiences in a previous relationship?

He assumes once he has a funky reaction, it's over.

Okay, and... .

i'm questioning the line i drew (talking). Seems like a weird way for the whole thing to end.

Because of your funky reaction?

P&C, please take a deep breath and exhale.  That's what I did after reading this.  It feels like it must be mental torture.

Can you just sort of turn away and do something, anything other than trying to figure things out with him and focus on yourself?

[MaybeSo]

He assumes once he has a funky reaction, it's over. I do wonder if that's something that could make a difference in what is possible with/for him.

Let's remind ourselves that his reactions aren't just 'funky'.  They can be potentially devastating to those they have in their lives that love and care about them.

P&C, I didn't think your guy had explored therapy... .but maybe he had?... .that's probably the place for this kind of exploration to happen... .or in couples counseling.  Folks usually don't put a lot of effort into therapy unless they are really, really hurting and really desirous of change as a consequence. Or if they are lonely and need someone to talk to.

My overall impression from your posts and from what I lived with a similar person... .is that he is at times in quite a bit of pain/irritable depression.  

But the person I know has learned that moving along and getting himself disengaged from whomever he is currently with, even if temporarily or disruptively, works like a charm and he almost instantly feels much, much better.  Euphoric even.

Therapy can't match that.

There are folks who will not take medication that treats bipolar I b/c it means giving up the euphoria and grandosity of a manic phase.  Lets understand that there are parts of mental illness, and some of the homegrown fixes people employ... .that actually feel really good and really rewarding, if only temporarily.  Even if there is colateral damage to loved ones. This why some aspects of mental illness is similar to addiction.  This is something nons have to realize too... .when they get into codependent stuff... .it's addicting.

In my opinion, the person I know experiences both pain and a tremendous amount of pleasure from his choices and during his cycles.  The last time I spoke with him... .he happily announced he hadn't felt depressed since last leaving me.  (He had been horribly depressed going on six months, including suicidal ideation, and I had insisted he go see his doctor about it, which was soundly rejected.  Shortly after that he announced he didn't think we were right for each other AGAIN and commented on how he wanted to leave and maybe or maybe not start dating other women. So he left, again.)     

It is clear to me that as long as I am with him, I will be interpreted as the cause of his misery eventually. It is clear part of what makes him feel better is to leave me.  It is clear to me that this in part why he seems to want to have one woman in his life amongst a backdrop of many other women. He has to have that anchor.  It's not the only reason, but it plays a big part.

I personally won't put myself in that position any longer.

As long as I am with him the only really workable solution that makes him feel good every time.... .is to dump me, quite painfully I might add, when he isn't feeling it anymore and is becoming depressed.  It works like a charm, every time.  Better than therapy.  Better than meds. And there are always lots of women out there with a sympathetic ear and a pretty smile and warm embrace so different in contrast to the flashes of fear, concern and dread he no doubt sees on my face as the weeks of mean-spirited depression drag on.

I can't beat that! Don't even want to!

From where he stands... .if it works, don't fix it.

P&C, if you don't want this to stop right now and you feel this pause was premature... .just take the reins and call him.  Take the reins.  Just reach out and do business at normal with him.  

 

[patientandclear]

Phoebe, not sure I understand the significance of some of those questions. I mean what I say when I describe my own feelings, that I don't especially want or need a generic person to be committed with.

I don't think my reaction of asking to talk was funky, not in the context where he's begged me before to talk before unilaterally backing up from intimate contact, not when he told me three weeks ago that we could talk whenever I need or want to, not when he'd just "spun out" about not hearing from me for a day (details I haven't spelled out here). Mostly not when I stuffed my feelings with him for years so as not to put pressure on him and respect his limits. No. Not funky.

I went for 10 months and another 15 months in NC doing my damnedest to be done figuring this r/s out. I have a full life and think about lots of other things daily. The dynamic with this guy is all I occasionally post about on this board but it is not the only thing I'm working on re happiness or personal growth.

I do still need to decide how to handle things with him, and I really appreciate the feedback here.

Whatwasthat, so nice to hear from you! I think what I wrote was confusing. He has seen therapists though it seems not usually for long. I meant I don't think there's been a partner who addressed his fear that if he is himself, she'll leave. Could be wrong though--he was in two long term r/ships where the women must have tried about everything. Both ended up pretty messed up and he chronically ended the one where he was not married and would start up with other women during the breaks. If those are his "reactions," they go beyond funky and I probably would eventually not still be there when he got back.

Which leads me to this morning's observation. I lost my current phone and am using an old one from the time 20 months ago when I first raised these issues of him keeping me as kind of emotional concubine (not how I described it) and he blew up and told me to have a nice life. Reading my texts to friends then, it was all the same feelings  I have now ... .And I already decided what to do, which was to stop unless something really changed. I've now given it a chance after he told me this is so very important to him, and nothing has changed. I think the growth edge Maybe So spoke of is in accepting that's how it is with us.

[123Phoebe]

P&C, if you don't want this to stop right now and you feel this pause was premature... .just take the reins and call him.  Take the reins.  Just reach out and do business at normal with him.  

Or, take the time to learn the TOOLS and communicate with him in a way that he feels heard, you feel heard

 

[patientandclear]

MS, I cross posted with you. Agree with everything you wrote. Yes, what my guy does clearly makes him feel better temporarily (long stretches like your guy, six months or more). It wrecks things but at the time it feels worth it.

I don't want to be the anchor he takes for granted and pairs with the exciting new person. If he doesn't want to engage these issues and just wants to roll along, yeah, i think I know enough to assess that this is like your experience and that I need to be serious about staying away from what I've said for two years that I don't want.

I've gotten confused because he quickly and so easily said words that sounded like what I do want, when we spoke back in March. He spoke of his sadness, of needing to make changes, of how important I am to him.  And after I explained my own limits this time, his actions were those of someone who wants to be my partner. It got hard to be sure what's going on.

Phoebe, I did something I regret in March, which was criticizing him severely when he finally let me in on his thinking about why we should not try again as partners. In that talk it became clear he'd resent me terribly if I took him up on the offer of monogamy and commitment he'd put on the table a week earlier. Instead of making him feel heard, I reacted to my own feeling that he was messing with my own core desires and hurts and hopes to get what he wanted. I wish now I'd made him feel heard rather than rejected for his true feelings. So I've tried to do a better job this time.

[formflier]

I wish now I'd made him feel heard rather than rejected for his true feelings. 

This is very important... .

I'm going to make a post here in a few minutes about this subject... .that my wife seems to do much better when she can be heard... .and not fixed... .or commented on...

Even when she is talking about outrageous things... .

[123Phoebe]

Ultimately it comes down to you, P&C.

We can all lament and share and compare notes, but what any of us decides to do is up to us. 

I'm curious if you've tried to approach him on some of these hot topics, using the tools provided here?

If there's a chance you might reach out to him in the future, how might you go about phrasing what's on your mind using the SET format?  Is the SET format the best option?  Might DEARMAN be a better approach?  Perhaps not?  Where do your VALUES come into view?  In what ways do your BOUNDARIES back up your values?  Are you expecting more from him than from yourself?  Is any PROJECTING going on?  Attribution Bias?

Before we can make anything better, we have to stop making it worse.

I wish now I'd made him feel heard rather than rejected for his true feelings. 

This is very important... .

I agree.  We have to really listen and hear them in order for them to feel heard.

[MaybeSo]

I wish now I'd made him feel heard rather than rejected for his true feelings.  


This is very important... .

As we suggest communication skills that may help a person to interact more skillfully... .

Lets also stay in awareness that both these men, in my opinion, hook women in by strongly suggesting (to all key women in their lives) that there is someone special enough out there with enough skill to 'figure them out' and make them want to stop being players and to start being good partners that no longer leave and cheat etc.  She's out there, he just hasn't found her yet... .Or she hasn't studied hard enough yet on bpdfamily.com to achieve the skill required to allow for this magic to happen yet.  Let's keep in our awareness this is incredibly enticing bait to lay out and that it is present in these situations.  This is not present in all instances, but it is present in mine and P&Cs situation. 

When I hear people jump in and suggest that P&C needs only better communication skills with this guy... .it makes me feel a little nervous and scared for her and for myself, given what I know about this kind of person.  Even in my own body I can feel myself jonesing a bit here... .Oh gosh... .I really can fix this if I keep working hard on the way I talk to him. I can do that!  I can do this!  

I do not think communication skills will necessarily fix what is going on here.  It can always provide better understanding.  But it won't fix anything.

Let's be careful here.  

[123Phoebe]

I wish now I'd made him feel heard rather than rejected for his true feelings.  


This is very important... .

I do not think communication skills will necessarily fix what is going on here.  It can always provide better understanding.  But it won't fix anything.

Let's be careful here.  

Maybe not, but they sure do help in lowering the temperature.  And they're fabulous in gaining inner-awareness as to just how hard it can be to get your point across in a non-confrontational authentic way.  Which can be very hard for a lot of people to do, no matter how perfect or lovely one might think it's packaged.

When I hear people jump in and suggest that P&C needs only better communication skills with this guy... .it makes me feel a little nervous and scared for her and for myself, given what I know about this kind of person.  Even in my own body I can feel myself jonesing a bit here... .Oh gosh... .I really can fix this if I keep working hard on the way I talk to him. I can do that!  I can do this! 

I don't think anyone jumped in to suggest P&C needs only better communication skills with her guy.  Communicating isn't about talking about saving or fixing the relationship! 

[1989]

Maybeso, could you explain how certain exes become "anchors" and some exes seem to be forgotten/never contacted again?

"The anchor" -is what you're describing the definition of pathological triangulation?

The answer to "why me?" would have given me a sense of closure and acceptance, and I wonder if it wouldn't help others?  It is so very hard to shake the feeling of being their one true love when they keep returning.  

[Skip]

So many really good comments in this thread... .just to add one that I didn't see (and pardon me if I missed it)... .

Is this a man extremely entrenched in an approach to life based on avoidance or limiting exposure to any possible fear of abandonment? Or is this a man on a quest to find the "love of his life" and staying connected to others to provide him emotional validation while on his quest?

A lot of this conversation evolves around the former, but I wonder if this is more about the latter.

patientandclear, I think he embraces you as a stepping stone to his real quest. I think he is telling you that in many ways. Is there someone better out there for him? I think he has his doubts, but for now does not want to close that door.

In many ways you are inadvertently reinforcing this - you don't see him as "prince charming" or the "love of your like", you see him as "best dancer in the ballroom in Detroit on a Tuesday night". There is no blinded by love, overtaking passion here.

Can you create this? Will he buy into it?  Is it sustainable? Do you want to do this? Take the risk?

What are your thoughts?

[patientandclear]

So many really good comments in this thread... .just to add one that I didn't see (and pardon me if I missed it)... .

Is this a man extremely entrenched in an approach to life based on avoidance or limiting exposure to any possible fear of abandonment? Or is this a man on a quest to find the "love of his life" and staying connected to others to provide him emotional validation while on his quest?

A lot of this conversation evolves around the former, but I wonder if this is more about the latter.

patientandclear, I think he embraces you as a stepping stone to his real quest. I think he is telling you that in many ways. Is there someone better out there for him? I think he has his doubts, but for now does not want to close that door.

In many ways you are inadvertently reinforcing this - you don't see him as "prince charming" or the "love of your like", you see him as "best dancer in the ballroom in Detroit on a Tuesday night". There is no blinded by love, overtaking passion here.

Can you create this? Will he buy into it?  Is it sustainable? Do you want to do this? Take the risk?

What are your thoughts?

We were blinded by passion at the beginning. I certainly was, and he knows that. He liked that about me--then.

After we reconnected as friends, there were a few occasions when I told him what he meant to me, and it made him uncomfortable--it smacked of ownership I think, and he does not want to be owned.

Yet when I don't tell him, when I am just going about my life and he is an important part of it but not the focus, he becomes almost frantic for me to say or show that I do love him. When we were talking in March I was speaking of my love for him in the past tense and this really bothered him. Though he does not know what to do with it in the present tense.

He told me then that he is looking for the perfect woman, who does not make him feel bad, ever, and who he therefore never makes feel bad, ever. I am not that woman and we both know that.

If I thought that woman existed this would be easier. I know she doesn't and I know our thing is pretty great. And that he wants it. Just not at the exclusion of the quest for the perfect partner.

I'm not sure what the implications of your question are Skip ... .I am not settling for him, my feelings for him aren't like that. I've spent most of the past decade alone, I don't feel this sort of connection with hardly anyone. I've told him that and he says he feels the same. Can I convey the wild hope and excitement I felt when we were first together? No, because I know a lot more. Can I convey a deep actual love that is hopeful and positive and praises what we have and conveys how lucky I feel to be with him? Yes, I think I do that. I don't think my lack of sufficient enthusiasm is the problem for him. I think it's that I disappoint him periodically and the perfect woman will not.

[formflier]

  P&C, Have you had a period in your r/s with this guy where you focus on "doing" the relationship and focusing your talks on things that you do and steering clear of discussing the actual r/s?  So the discussions/talks would be about the trip to the beach you had or the plans for grilling out together, rather that whether or not either of you are "the one".  I just skimmed through the thread again and there are a bunch of great points in here.    I'm also wondering where P&C is going with this r/s (the pwBPD) or with r/s in general.  In other words, what is the plan?    

FF