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How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
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Author Topic: Intimacy and Expectations  (Read 1548 times)
NCEA
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« on: January 07, 2016, 01:09:41 PM »

Split from this thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=288642.0


Well as I've mentioned before the 4.5 years of traveling commenced after I broke up from a 9 years r/s with a Histrionic (she had ALL traits, it was like someone was following her around and describing her). In all the 9 years I've "cheated" once - I kissed a girl at a party, after finishing half a bottle of Vodka. I didn't have it in me to cheat otherwise because "I'm a good Jewish boy" and would never do anything like that. So once in a blue moon when I was at a party alone, I'd drink half a bottle to get drunk enough so "maybe" I'll cheat somehow by "mistake". I craved other girls, I was in my 20's and it was driving me crazy. But I NEVER cheated other than that kiss. 9 years.

So when the 9 years disaster ended I dug deep into relationships, read Sex at Dawn and it came obvious to me that sexual monogamy was NOT for me. So then I went into the 4.5 years of traveling / partying / pick up rampage. Sexually I've done everything you can imagine and more.

I know I'm "capable" of an intimate relationship but I just don't believe it's natural for me in the long run. 1-2-3-4-5 months yes but then, sexually, it will have to be opened up, or with swinging etc. I just can't imagine myself having sex with one person for any period of time. And as I don't think it's natural for women either, all of us, I wouldn't ask a woman (even if I love her) to prison herself like that. Make that ESPECIALLY if I love her. If I love someone, why would I withhold sex from them? It's one of life's biggest pleasures.

It's just obvious to me that it goes against our biological wiring, even if we "chose" to do it. It's still unnatural , unhealthy, not sustainable on the long run.  But I have no problem with intimacy. The reason I'm able to seduce women easily and quickly is that I'm very open, totally honest and extremely vulnerable. What I wrote you above about my childhood, I would have no problem telling this to a girl on a 2nd or 3rd date.


How is that for self analysis?

its very impressive NCEA, thank you for sharing. frankly my heart breaks for what you experienced in your childhood. how invalidating, how isolating. your success in life is a testament to you.

im glad youve connected the dots, too, because i think you have your answer. it often occurs to me that those of us here on this board have more in common with each other than any of our exes do.

simply put: do you think that you are emotionally available to healthy, intimate relationships?

when it comes to your skills and success with women, you say it yourself, they are coping skills for a lack of confidence, for a feeling of being "not enough" (which was wrongfully reinforced for a great deal of your life). this can certainly lend itself to romantic success; i picked up a lot of avoidant attachment skills and i did have greater success in some areas, only to land (and stay) in a disordered relationship. i was not emotionally available to a healthy, truly intimate relationship.

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« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2016, 01:17:52 PM »

I think we tend to be drawn to what we know, what makes us comfortable.

I also think, from what I've seen you've write on these boards, that you like to be shocking (and to be shocked).

A person with a personality disorder will feed that need for you.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2016, 01:22:41 PM »

What I wrote you above about my childhood, I would have no problem telling this to a girl on a 2nd or 3rd date.

general advice: that, to me, falls under disclosing too much too soon. its not dishonest, but healthy intimacy is best built slowly. its also about personal safety and boundaries.

there are plenty of women that would be very attracted to your story for a variety of reasons. disclosing such a thing on a second or third date creates a potential to bond over it (which is fine, over time, but early on, it can seriously complicate things).

several of my exes have done this, disclose their childhood to me right away. there was a time when i was attracted to it, now its a turn off, feels inappropriate.

i dont need to debate you on your values when it comes to relationships, monogamy, etc. i dont even need to tell you youre more than entitled to it. what i am saying is that you are describing intimacy and honesty as intense and immediate chemistry, and that tends to have a certain outcome.
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NCEA
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« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2016, 01:25:20 PM »

I think it's obvious I like to challenge myself, surprise myself, push myself to the edge. I'm afraid of heights... .so I went and did a paragliding course. Did 6 solo flights so far. In my teens I was afraid of going to the IDF (Israeli military) so last year I did this:

www.extremesealexperience.com

It's a Navy Seals training for civilians.

I was afraid of women. So I slept with more than 100. The 120 doesn't include swinging parties, it's probably close to 160. I don't count those because there was no seduction involved.

I also know that I'm obsessive. If I do something, I really get my teeth into it. For YEARS. I have several examples for that. The good side of it is that I could retire 30 years before everybody else. When my university pals were busy getting drunk, I was sitting in front of my computer working on my business. So now I don't have to work but all of them do.



I think we tend to be drawn to what we know, what makes us comfortable.

I also think, from what I've seen you've write on these boards, that you like to be shocking (and to be shocked).

A person with a personality disorder will feed that need for you.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

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NCEA
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« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2016, 01:36:45 PM »

I totally agree, not to mention these things so early. I don't, I'm just saying that I could.

Intimacy is being able to share your reality with another person without holding anything back. I have no problem doing it quickly, or long term, if I find the right person. The sexual "issue" is just a twist that makes it more difficult in the long run and having these views complicates things from the onset. I'm not going to date someone for 3 months and then "come out of the closet" as a non monogamous person. So I have to be honest about that from the onset.

What usually happens is that they immediately view me as a "lover" (short term affair with an interesting guy) rather than a "provider"  (someone they could seduce into a LTR) - and then they ask me when is the next swinging party and if they can join.

Girls these days... .  ;-)




What I wrote you above about my childhood, I would have no problem telling this to a girl on a 2nd or 3rd date.

general advice: that, to me, falls under disclosing too much too soon. its not dishonest, but healthy intimacy is best built slowly. its also about personal safety and boundaries.

there are plenty of women that would be very attracted to your story for a variety of reasons. disclosing such a thing on a second or third date creates a potential to bond over it (which is fine, over time, but early on, it can seriously complicate things).

several of my exes have done this, disclose their childhood to me right away. there was a time when i was attracted to it, now its a turn off, feels inappropriate.

i dont need to debate you on your values when it comes to relationships, monogamy, etc. i dont even need to tell you youre more than entitled to it. what i am saying is that you are describing intimacy and honesty as intense and immediate chemistry, and that tends to have a certain outcome.

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« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2016, 01:43:27 PM »

I think it's obvious I like to challenge myself, surprise myself, push myself to the edge. I'm afraid of heights... .so I went and did a paragliding course. Did 6 solo flights so far. In my teens I was afraid of going to the IDF (Israeli military) so last year I did this:

www.extremesealexperience.com

It's a Navy Seals training for civilians.

I was afraid of women. So I slept with more than 100. The 120 doesn't include swinging parties, it's probably close to 160. I don't count those because there was no seduction involved.

I also know that I'm obsessive. If I do something, I really get my teeth into it. For YEARS. I have several examples for that. The good side of it is that I could retire 30 years before everybody else. When my university pals were busy getting drunk, I was sitting in front of my computer working on my business. So now I don't have to work but all of them do.

We're an anonymous forum. We're all equal here. It doesn't matter what you've done or who you've been with. We're all on the same playing field as to these relationships that bring us here. Some of us are conservative in our monogamy, but there's open marriages here too. There's other (more discreet) millionaires on these boards. There's blue collar heroes too.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I think for the lot of us, success is really about perception and happiness is what you make of it. My husband is the most beautiful man on the planet to me, and beautifully flawed. I also picked him for several reasons (good and bad) and my whole life is just a path that lead me to where I am now.

Most of us don't need (or want) to be shocked. For me, my draw to the drama was for very good reason.

Pushing limits isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's helped in your successful career. What it also shows through in your posting is that you perhaps struggle in boundaries and appreciating the boundaries of others. (Not a judgment, just a statement)

To go back to your original post, that also is perhaps why you were drawn to a person with BPD. Poor established boundaries tends to fit well in these relationships.  

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NCEA
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« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2016, 01:51:04 PM »

What it also shows through in your posting is that you perhaps struggle in boundaries and appreciating the boundaries of others. (Not a judgment, just a statement)

To go back to your original post, that also is perhaps why you were drawn to a person with BPD. Poor established boundaries tends to fit well in these relationships.  


What can I say, I agree.

But I don't think I want to shock, my views are just different and I like to confront people with them and get their POV.

300 years ago if you said you don't believe in god they'd hang you.

Maybe 100 years from now the idea of monogamy would be seen as a bad experiment.

I also don't tend to see these boards as "real life" because it's virtual and anonymous. In real life most people think I'm a "web designer" and that I make $2000 a month. Only my parents, siblings and maybe 2-3 other people know the truth. I wear jeans, t-shirts and everything I own can go inside a suitcase (naturally). Until 2 years ago I still stayed in youth hostels, just for the fun of it.


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« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2016, 02:18:02 PM »

Anonymous forums are definitely good for putting it out there. I think that it's better sometimes then "real life" in that you can honestly and safely put it out there, because we are only invested in you as a fellow support group member. 

I mean I talk regularly about my childhood abuse here, where I wouldn't bring up such a thing on a third date. Smiling (click to insert in post)

I also hope that you can do that here, work on what may have landed you in love with this woman who hurt you so profoundly.

It seems like you're asking all the right questions -- I mean why if there are 7 Billion people on the planet, you landed yourself in a relationship with someone suffering from this disorder?

You said yourself that you would have gone against your own values (anti-monogamy) to be with her.

There's reason we bust our own boundaries and it really helps to know why. And how. There's a whole healing platform designed to help you in the process.

I get the feeling you might have watched the video I suggested. I'm assuming that's where you got the statistic (that is a little outdated). Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2016, 02:32:32 PM »

I know I'm "capable" of an intimate relationship but I just don't believe it's natural for me in the long run. 1-2-3-4-5 months yes but then, sexually, it will have to be opened up, or with swinging etc. I just can't imagine myself having sex with one person for any period of time.

Do you make a distinction between emotional intimacy and sex NC?  We can have sex without emotional intimacy, sounds like you've done a lot of that, and we can have emotional intimacy without sex.  And we can be emotionally intimate with many people concurrently, including men.

We all have the drives for both connection and significance, opposing needs, you get your needs for significance met with your wealth-generator and you accomplishments; how do you get your need for connection met?
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NCEA
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« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2016, 02:38:34 PM »

Yes of course I'm making a distinction. I just meant I can be intimate for months, if not years, but the sexual part of the relationship (which has nothing to do with emotional intimacy itself) would become an issue.

I now have an intimate NOT sexual relationship with an ex lover of mine. Over the NYE weekend we went traveling together, we sleep in the same bed, hug each other, snuggle, and NOT have sex. It's totally strange, it's like we're an intimate couple but without the sex. We don't sleep with each other because we know it will become more serious than it should and for me it's an experiment in having a female friend without sex. A month ago she didn't have a place to sleep so she stayed with me for ten days. Same bed, snuggling , no sex. Pretty crazy but I enjoy it a lot. She also just moved here and we find lots of comfort in each other and we're best friends.


I know I'm "capable" of an intimate relationship but I just don't believe it's natural for me in the long run. 1-2-3-4-5 months yes but then, sexually, it will have to be opened up, or with swinging etc. I just can't imagine myself having sex with one person for any period of time.

Do you make a distinction between emotional intimacy and sex NC?  We can have sex without emotional intimacy, sounds like you've done a lot of that, and we can have emotional intimacy without sex.  And we can be emotionally intimate with many people concurrently, including men.

We all have the drives for both connection and significance, opposing needs, you get your needs for significance met with your wealth-generator and you accomplishments; how do you get your need for connection met?

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« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2016, 03:14:27 PM »

I now have an intimate NOT sexual relationship with an ex lover of mine. Over the NYE weekend we went traveling together, we sleep in the same bed, hug each other, snuggle, and NOT have sex. It's totally strange, it's like we're an intimate couple but without the sex. We don't sleep with each other because we know it will become more serious than it should and for me it's an experiment in having a female friend without sex. A month ago she didn't have a place to sleep so she stayed with me for ten days. Same bed, snuggling , no sex. Pretty crazy but I enjoy it a lot. She also just moved here and we find lots of comfort in each other and we're best friends.

Welcome to marriage.   Smiling (click to insert in post)   Smiling (click to insert in post)   Smiling (click to insert in post)   Smiling (click to insert in post)   Smiling (click to insert in post)   Smiling (click to insert in post)   Smiling (click to insert in post)

Totally kidding.

There's a certain component to having an intimate relationship that doesn't necessarily involve sex. And how lucky when you can have both. But even in the scenario above, with my male (best) friends -- I don't sleep in the same bed. Or snuggle. That's my own values/boundaries at play. I don't want to share with my husband what I do with my friends. I'm guarded who I allow into my sacred spaces and it's been a learned skill.  

What are your limits in male/female relationships? Boundaries? Values? (And please for the love of Pete, keep it G rated) And I don't ask as far as getting in a philosophical debate about monogamy, I realize that what works for one person doesn't for another. I don't need you to be monogamous to have a conversation about relationships --- no more then do you need me not to be monogamous.  

I'm just wondering what it is that you want to do as an ultimate goal? You say you don't want children or a wife. But you were maybe willing to attempt it for her? (Because that's what she wanted)

Your therapist is probably on the same line of thought when it comes to helping you reach a goal in this.

I think that's where a lot of us find ourselves in the BPD aftermath --- thinking we had it all figured out when in fact, we were a little lost. Smiling (click to insert in post)
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NCEA
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« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2016, 03:33:53 PM »

We wouldn't snuggle if we were involved with others. We are ex lovers and really have deep nice feelings to each other so it's just a very deep loving friendship without sex. I know, it's sounds strange.

What do I want... .

I'd like to have a life partner. I'm very much a provider type too. I'm a "lover" type but only out of choice, deep inside I'm a romantic teen.

When I was in love with my exBPD , when walking around a supermarket, I felt I want to just buy stuff for her, out of a need to "take care" and "provide" her. I literally felt how I want to fill up shopping bags with junk and shower her with stuff. Like a hunter coming back from the hunt.

I'd love to have a life partner who I can grow and share everything with, and have an exclusive ENOTIONAL relationship with and total intimacy.

But... .

We'd have our own places and sleep at each others place just 3-4 nights a week.

We would be very much our own people.

We would experiment sexually, together, with others.

We'd give each other space and alone time and wouldn't be in each other's a$$es , which is the reason most relationships suck.

But ultimately we'd be a solid unit of two people who are totally committed to each other.

That's what I wanted with my ex. She doesn't want children so that was perfect for me.

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« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2016, 04:14:39 PM »

NCEA,

This sounds a good, liberated life style to me. With some people, I like arrangements like this, too. With others, I know I can have a monogamous relationship and be totally committed and if I feel good with the person, I can do that for the rest of my life, no problems.

In my experience, I think boundaries become an issue not when we design something but when something happens outside our design - and most of the time, it does because there is the human factor. For instance, some people may be swingers or are each other's primary relationship and feel a different commitment for each other. And then one of them develops feelings for a secondary, or someone they are sexually experimenting with and want to spend more time with them. Aren't we back to square 1 then? All of a sudden, we are experiencing the same problem like a monogamous relationship where a partner says they are less committed. Wouldn't we have to think about the very same boundary again? (I'm not asking this rhetorically, I'm thinking with your post).  Isn't this issue always there once we seek emotional exclusivity even in a multiple-partner arrangement?

This may happen even when you experience other partners only together, it can happen when you are there.

Can you truly say for yourself that you'll never develop any other emotional relationship with anyone else in this setting? What would you do if this happened and the other person experienced this as betrayal?

Do you think you can fully, selflessly provide or are there somethings you expect back? You say radical honesty. I respect that a lot. But what if your partner discloses something that is unacceptable to you and that's a boundary and you stop providing. Is that not a kind of punishment for radical honesty? Or maybe we state our boundaries beforehand, but then with some people we get honesty based on convenience - maybe they are scared of losing what we are providing but want the other thing, too.

I think it all comes back to our reaction to being lied to, cheated on, how we experience anger, what makes us think partners who are not suitable are sometimes suitable etc. I don't know. I'm just trying to think with you. 

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« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2016, 04:20:23 PM »

I just know that non-monogamy has ruined a few relationships for me, and I sometimes think that was selfish of me.

Then again, I always think that it was foolish of the women in question to not be straightforward about their wants/expectations.
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NCEA
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« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2016, 04:26:51 PM »

These are all good questions.

I think once you're super aware of these potential problems, you can set out guidelines to protect the unit.

Messing around only with other committed couples.

Never too intensely or too often.

Whatever happens at a swingers party, stays at a swingers party. Etc

Of course things can go wrong but with the right partner this lifestyle is much more balanced than a closed monogamous one. My ex for example didn't want this. She'd rather have a long distance relationship with a fake primary and then cheat left and right with married men. Why is this her preference? Maybe because she likes to "cheat" , it's exciting for her. Maybe she'd be too jealous to mess around with her partner and rather have a "don't ask don't tell " policy.

I know for a fact that tons of women would be happy with what I'm offering.
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« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2016, 04:57:17 PM »

I know for a fact that tons of women would be happy with what I'm offering.

Your thread was split NC, but going back to your original post, do you see a correlation between what you consider personality disordered folks and the polyamory/swinger cultures you're interested in?
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« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2016, 05:13:03 PM »

I see why this lifestyle would be attractive for disordered people, yes.

I also see how priesthood or a military career would. So I'm not sure what to make of it. As stated elsewhere I believe it could attract both - the disordered, and the very liberal and conscious. I fully realize that putting my head in the sand like I did during my 20 could , in a way, make my life easier. But I'd be living a lie.

I know for a fact that tons of women would be happy with what I'm offering.

Your thread was split NC, but going back to your original post, do you see a correlation between what you consider personality disordered folks and the polyamory/swinger cultures you're interested in?

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« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2016, 05:14:59 PM »

I think it's obvious I like to challenge myself, surprise myself, push myself to the edge. I'm afraid of heights... .so I went and did a paragliding course. Did 6 solo flights so far. In my teens I was afraid of going to the IDF (Israeli military) so last year I did this:

www.extremesealexperience.com

It's a Navy Seals training for civilians.

I was afraid of women. So I slept with more than 100. The 120 doesn't include swinging parties, it's probably close to 160. I don't count those because there was no seduction involved.

I also know that I'm obsessive. If I do something, I really get my teeth into it. For YEARS. I have several examples for that. The good side of it is that I could retire 30 years before everybody else. When my university pals were busy getting drunk, I was sitting in front of my computer working on my business. So now I don't have to work but all of them do.



I think we tend to be drawn to what we know, what makes us comfortable.

I also think, from what I've seen you've write on these boards, that you like to be shocking (and to be shocked).

A person with a personality disorder will feed that need for you.  Smiling (click to insert in post)


Is it possible that you possess narcissistic traits?
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« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2016, 05:18:36 PM »

A narcissist would parade his wealth. You guys know more about me in this respect than 99% of the people who know me in real life. I tell people I'm a web designer.

100%, I'm this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperthymic_temperament


increased energy and productivity

short sleep patterns

vividness, activity extroversion

self-assurance, self-confidence

strong will

extreme talkativeness

tendency to repeat oneself

risk-taking/sensation seeking

breaking social norms

very strong libido

love of attention

low threshold for boredom

generosity and tendency to overspend

emotion sensitivity

cheerfulness and joviality

unusual warmth

expansiveness

tirelessness

irrepressibility, irresistible and infectious quality

The one thing that doesn't fit me is "over spend" although it depends. I've never flown business or first class. I wear jeans until they tear up badly. But I'll spoil myself with good food or now in an expensive apartment in central London, 50 meters from Oxford street, so I'd never need to use the Tube (awful, I hate public transportation here). I'm a big spender only on what's important for me, luxury items or status symbols are the most idiotic money wasting objects in the world.



I think it's obvious I like to challenge myself, surprise myself, push myself to the edge. I'm afraid of heights... .so I went and did a paragliding course. Did 6 solo flights so far. In my teens I was afraid of going to the IDF (Israeli military) so last year I did this:

www.extremesealexperience.com

It's a Navy Seals training for civilians.

I was afraid of women. So I slept with more than 100. The 120 doesn't include swinging parties, it's probably close to 160. I don't count those because there was no seduction involved.

I also know that I'm obsessive. If I do something, I really get my teeth into it. For YEARS. I have several examples for that. The good side of it is that I could retire 30 years before everybody else. When my university pals were busy getting drunk, I was sitting in front of my computer working on my business. So now I don't have to work but all of them do.



I think we tend to be drawn to what we know, what makes us comfortable.

I also think, from what I've seen you've write on these boards, that you like to be shocking (and to be shocked).

A person with a personality disorder will feed that need for you.  Smiling (click to insert in post)


Is it possible you possess NPD traits?

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« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2016, 05:34:55 PM »

So, that's not really accepted in the clinical sense? It looks like it's mostly recognized in the self-help world. It's like the different personality tests that are offered by life coaches that deem your personality by color or animal.  (Or like our own Meyers-Briggs test: here)  

Have you taken our personality test yet to see where you land? (Take the test here... .)

Note: Rating high on any scale, doesn't make you disordered. It just helps to see how you may very well handle matters in life. (i.e. a highly emotional person will deal differently then a more pragmatic personality)



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NCEA
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« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2016, 05:45:08 PM »



Paranoid   ||||   19%   50%

Schizoid   ||||||||||   38%   40%

Schizotypal   ||||||||||||||||||||   83%   56%

Antisocial   ||||||||||||   45%   46%

Borderline   ||||||   30%   45%

Histrionic   ||   10%   52%

Narcissistic   ||||||||||||||   57%   40%

Avoidant   ||   1%   48%

Dependent   ||   7%   44%

Obsessive-Compulsive   ||||||||||||||   51%   45%

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« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2016, 06:47:55 PM »

Hey NCEA, didn't know about this new personality type... .

Anyway, just as a side-note, narcissists may belong to the grandiose type (the one you refer, and probably the most known) or covert/shy type (I have traits of this flavour); same underlying core reasons/thoughts, very different ways to express them.
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« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2016, 08:32:50 PM »

Am I missing something here?
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NCEA
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« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2016, 08:06:54 AM »

I don't know, you use the name confused? So it's hard to say. Are you?

Am I missing something here?

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Fr4nz
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« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2016, 09:13:56 AM »

Am I missing something here?

We were talking about our own personality traits Smiling (click to insert in post)
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thisworld
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« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2016, 09:33:54 AM »

I don't know, you use the name confused? So it's hard to say. Are you?

Am I missing something here?


Hey NCEA,

Why do you think Confused has chosen that name?
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Confused?
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« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2016, 01:29:11 PM »

Am I missing something here?

We were talking about our own personality traits Smiling (click to insert in post)

Ohhhh. I thought this was a detaching from a pwBPD relationship forum. My bad 
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