Something her dad said to me

[KateCat]

What wise counsel from sweetheart.

I think you are indeed acting from a position of strength if you follow the approach she suggests.

You have already set the foundation for a future here at your new state, haven't you? Eight children are eligible for unique higher education benefits here. Your parents now own a family sized home here. I think they have indicated that they want to move nearer you and their grandkids at some point. Your wife's family is here too should she need their support if the family does split. That's a lot of logistical ground covered.

You made these moves in a spirit of optimism about your wife's mental health, I think. But they are still practical, solid moves.

It's gotta be tough to hang on in this crazy situation, but you are the key to its resolution, one way or another. Keep getting that sleep and exercise we all need.

[enlighten me]

Hi FF

Ive not read all the replies but something has me curious. Would you say her mom or dad may have BPD? Your quote of his response seemed like "welcome to my world". It may be that he is going through and has been with your MIL exactly what your going through with his daughter.

[formflier]

Hi FF

Ive not read all the replies but something has me curious. Would you say her mom or dad may have BPD? Your quote of his response seemed like "welcome to my world". It may be that he is going through and has been with your MIL exactly what your going through with his daughter.

Exactly, "welcome to my world"

And my clear answer is and was "I will not get used to it"

Not sure what all that means but my overriding thought/message is "I'm not going back"

FF

[Verbena]

Your wife tried to manipulate you, with the help of your children and others, by not allowing you to sleep.  You stood your ground so she has let go of that, for now.   

Now she is manipulating you by keeping the children from being around you and poisoning them against you.  This is working for her, so far. 

Someone suggested sitting down with the kids and telling them this is NOT ok.  They are your children and you have the right to speak to them and tell them you do not want them involved in problems you and your wife have with each other.  I see your wife flipping out if you try to do this, but that's on her.  You really, really need to speak to your children. 

[formflier]

 

Yes, verbena.  Absolutely correct.

I am going to pick them up at bus stop today.  Bring them home and cook dinner with them.  Wife said she would be home for dinner at 6.  Nothing special.  We were not able to have a civil conversation to figure out who was picking up who or who she was bringing home, but SHE agreed to be here at 6. 

Was kind weird when I was pinning her down.

Anyway, her parents will likely try to pick them up.  I will be ready with recorder in my pocket and certainly won't make a scene, but will stand my ground that kids are coming with me. 

Will talk to them when we get home.

Wish me luck.

other updates that make me feel better.  I spoke for a while on the phone with my new T.  Seems ok.  Appointment set for next week.

Appointment set to speak with L.  Initial reaction to the guy is positive as well. 

Spent a lot of time on the phone today and looking around don't feel like I got much done.  I did get to store and get some stuff I needed.

Anyone else have any ideas of things I should be doing now.  MC won't be able to get us in for "several weeks", it's the only place she is saying she will go.  "Biblical counseling" is what she wants.  They are heavy on accountability (we have both been to training classes) so I'm not sure what her angle is there.

FF

[Fian]

So let's be clear about what will happen.  You have 2 paths:

1.  Let the issue with the kids slide.  This will take fuel off the fire, however you may suffer long term effects of being demonized (even giving a speech doesn't guarantee that she won't successfully demonize you).  You might be able to talk to the kids later if things die down, but even then you would be disturbing the peace and signing up for more dysregulation.

2.  You contest her wishes and pick the kids up and give a speech to them.  This will be adding a lot of fuel to the fire, and there may be very serious repercussions, potentially all the way up to divorce since every single issue seems to lead in that direction right now.  On the positive, she already views you with contempt - it is unlikely this can cause more, but a show of strength might cause her to have some respect.  I think this outcome is unlikely, though.

I can't tell you what is right, but I think it is important to consider both options and what you can live with.

[Icthelight]

"Biblical counseling" is what she wants.  They are heavy on accountability (we have both been to training classes) so I'm not sure what her angle is there.FF

My uBPDw and I went to our church counselor early in our marriage. I had never been to any sort of counseling (quite honestly, I didn't want to go) but overall, I found it helped our marriage. The issue for me was that the counselor seemed to focus on making sure I did this and that I did that to improve our marriage. I felt that my W intimated the counselor with her anger and so the counselor focused on me to change our relationship. Also, I didn't always feel heard. The focus for most of the session was on my W getting her points and issues resolved and when I tried to say something, the counselor would tell me to hold on, let her finish. I many times left those sessions frustrated. It helped our marriage in that my wife felt heard and got the chance to unload on me. However, when I spoke to the counselor about my feelings and the counselor began challenging my W more, it was game over. My W decided that we didn't need counseling anymore.

So, all of that to say to make sure you get your say as well. I'm not sure what type of credentials the counselor has, but make sure you get to participate as well.

When I was looking for a therapist a few months ago, my W insisted that he be a Christian. She later told me that her fear with a non christian counselor was that they were quick to suggest separation or divorce. I took that as her fears of abandonment. Maybe your W has the same fear?

Focus on getting your sleep and enforce your healthy boundaries. You have this saying that has helped me when I'm confronted with a full blown dysregulation or rage, "Slow it down." Or something like that. It reminds me to be mindful of the moment and not to react without thinking. Remember to slow it down these next two weeks and disengage emotionally as best as you can.

[formflier]

Poof, the other wife is back.

Will update more later.

FF

[formflier]

 

So, obviously a good turn of events.  Thinking of the Waverider analogy of a passing storm.  This one was way longer than I care to go through again.  Like a long hurricane.

It started with the bus stop  I go down there and wait, bus pulls up and and MIL is behind it.  Kids (S7 and D10) hopped off and looked at me and looked at MIL.  They stood still.  I said "hop in we are going home".  MIL looks around and says to kids "go on with your daddy", she hopped in the car and left.  I went home and had a great time with kids.

We put away huge stacks of clothes together while talking and cutting up.  My wife usually gets back in the area from her job about 15-20 minutes after these kids get off work.  Lately she and other kids have been spending all their time at granparents house and then showing up here just in time for bed.  Well, I should have thought of this, but my wife and S15 coming stomping and storming into the house (no words, but heavy footsteps and slamming doors).  I hollered downstairs and asked if is was S13 (pretty sure it wasn't) and my wife in "reasonable to little excited voice" says "it's me".  I said something like "hey, hope you had a good day"  (no response.) some stomping around, closet doors opening and closing and a thump as they went out front door.

I spent another few hours together with S7 and D10.  All clothes put away and then we had a great time putting away food I had bought and making dinner.  Wife had "told" me that morning to cook the shrimp I bought.  (come one, anyone really think I am going to type here that I cooked the shrimp).   Some hamburger buns and hotdog buns were needing to be used so I cooked up the remaining hotdogs we had and some burgers.  Made chili and other fixins for dogs and burgers, green beans, corn and mac and cheese (eaten in large quantities in this house).

To my wife's credit, she showed up with rest of clan at 10 till 6.  (we had agreed on 6).  Shockingly nice, reasonable, "normal" woman showed up.  I asked her for a couple tips on how she made the beans and corn so good (I already knew).  She told me.  I asked if she could help out a bit (as I was still working on the grill) and make the beans and corn taste good (they were hot and steaming in pot, but I hadn't seasoned yet).  She said sure, jumped in and did it.

We had a great relaxed dinner together as a family.  Oh, "tactics" on the meal thing.  First, about zero chance I could ever "outcook" my wife.  Not gonna happen.  Second, I'm not stupid enough to try or make it seem that way.

Well, as dinner ended I asked D7 if her homework was done.  Yep.  I asked my wife is it would interfere with any of her plans if my Mom came over to practice piano with D7.  (mom is retired piano professor and D7's personality lends itself to a powerful "stage presence".  She is good piano player for her age).  Wife said that would work fine.

Wife hops up, does dishes, I helped out and evening went great.   Later in the evening I did some cleaning in our bathroom.  After kids were in bed I said "There is a clean tub (big jetted thing), the smell of pinesol and a naked FF will be in the tub"   

After all the activity was over I was asleep quickly.  She was messing around on her phone before I went to sleep.  I woke up to empty bed, she was sleeping upstairs with girls.  I didn't say anything about it.

Big kid victory (feel good moment) for me, when I took S7 and D10 to the bus this morning, D10 was all excited asking what we were going to do after school.  I said, "I don't know, what do you want to do"  Building snowmen was the top choice so that is what is promised when they get home today.

D10 and I don't talk about it anymore, but she was the one that I stood in front of to stop my wife with belt. (cps issue couple summers ago). 

Don't worry, I know nothing is fixed.  Just this issue is over.  Before she left for work I gave her smooch and said "Hey, if I get up the gumption to try and grill shrimp, what would you like with it"  She tossed out some ideas.  I said no promises but something will be ready at 6.  Also told (didn't ask) her I would get S7 and D10 at bus stop and build snowmen.

FF

[Fian]

So why do you think that your wife didn't escalate when you forced the school pickup?  Also, did you decide to defer having a talk with your kids about mom/dad issues?

[cosmonaut]

At the risk of sounding very invalidating, what is it that you find so objectionable about what your FIL said?  I'm just not clear on why you said that's never going to happen.

[formflier]

At the risk of sounding very invalidating, what is it that you find so objectionable about what your FIL said?  I'm just not clear on why you said that's never going to happen.

It will get better (treatment or whatever) or we will split. 

FIL (in my opinion) has been pushed around by his BPDish wife for all his marriage.  I think she is the reason my wife is the way she is.

Good question though, I wasn't clear earlier.

FF

[formflier]

So why do you think that your wife didn't escalate when you forced the school pickup?  Also, did you decide to defer having a talk with your kids about mom/dad issues?

Who knows why she backed down.  Weird too, like flipping a light switch almost.  I've seen that before.

Yes, deferred talk.  Wanted to put a couple positive days behind us (about to go build snowmen) and then have an "oh by the way" talk. 

I'm not one of those parents that sits kids down and says "now kids, this is serious and the lays it on them".

I chat a while, make sure in good mood.  Say the important thing.  Be there for questions and move along.  Will usually check back in later to see if they have more questions.

FF

[Fian]

That sounds like a good plan.

[KateCat]

What do you think will be your message to the kids, formflier?

My childhood experience makes me deeply appreciate something livednlearned recently wrote. I think the following is a pretty exact representation:

She said she used to say to her son, "Your father loves you; he had a bad childhood."

Now she wishes she had said, "Your father is mentally ill; your father is drunk."

I think my mom was already pretty brave back in the way-back day when she was saying something like the first thing. But I think if I had ever heard the second thing at any time in my pre-teen childhood, it would have made a big difference.

I know your wife is not drunk, and I suspect you don't want to say anything about mental illness. What kind of things do you think you can say to reassure the kids and validate their experience? Tell them it's OK to feel sad? To feel scared? Tell them that anyone would be upset by some things that have happened recently?

Can you tell them that things will be different going forward? (Or maybe you can't promise that.)

Have you discussed the particular issue of what your kids are likely experiencing with a counselor of your own? Would it be worth working out some messages to give the kids with a professional at some point?

This is the hill I would personally keep fighting on. I know it's important to you too. 

[Grey Kitty]

Sounds like you've managed the latest stuff with your wife... .good job!

You asked about this... .

"I've been dealing with this stuff all my life.  I figured out a way to live with it and you are going to have to as well"

... .

I said "No, I will no live with this.  This is not healthy and I will not be involved with it."

Let me start with the context I believe we've already got here... .

... .FIL has prior issues with alcoholism (and is at least functioning well today in that regard, if not better still)

... .MIL runs the house (and in ways that sound eerily similar to FF wife's methods)

... .SIL is even more messed up/toxic to be around than either your wife or MIL.

I'd like to present the face-value translation of what your FIL said given that context.

"I've not got good enough tools to do a f***ing thing about this besides wait for it to pass."

You have more resources than he does. (Starting right here!) You aren't willing to accept that.

You do have to accept that dysfunctional games will be attempted. However you can work on your response and protecting yourself (and your children) better. Keep working at it!

BTW... .just because things have gotten better I wouldn't recommend you set aside your plans to consult a lawyer. Knowing your rights, knowing a bit about legal strategies, etc. is all good stuff to have in your back pocket. I hope you never need to use any of it.

[Grey Kitty]

What do you think will be your message to the kids, formflier?

I like this question.

I'd add one area that you *probably* don't need a reminder of.

Your kids already know too much about how to play their mom against you... .don't tell them anything that will encourage that sort of thing.

[KateCat]

"I've not got good enough tools to do a f***ing thing about this besides wait for it to pass."

I think this is exactly what FIL said. It's kind of what we all used to say in the days before resources like bpdfamily.

[cosmonaut]

It will get better (treatment or whatever) or we will split. 

FIL (in my opinion) has been pushed around by his BPDish wife for all his marriage.  I think she is the reason my wife is the way she is.

Good question though... .I wasn't clear earlier.

FF

I see.  I had thought that his advice pertained to you choosing to remain in the relationship, but it seems that he was more telling you to resign yourself to unacceptable behavior.  I didn't realize you were undecided about staying.  I do think he's right, however, that if you want to stay that you are going to have to accept.  The biggest problem I see in relationships on the Leaving board is the pattern of refusing to accept our partner as they are.  So many times we are angry that our partner isn't who we want them to be (someone without BPD).  It's a difficult decision, but if we decide that we love our partner and want to be with them, then we have to take them as they are.

[babyducks]

I see.  I had thought that his advice pertained to you choosing to remain in the relationship, but it seems that he was more telling you to resign yourself to unacceptable behavior.  I didn't realize you were undecided about staying.  I do think he's right, however, that if you want to stay that you are going to have to accept.  The biggest problem I see in relationships on the Leaving board is the pattern of refusing to accept our partner as they are.  So many times we are angry that our partner isn't who we want them to be (someone without BPD).  It's a difficult decision, but if we decide that we love our partner and want to be with them, then we have to take them as they are.

thank you cosmonaut, one of the better things I have read lately.   rings all sorts of bells for me personally.

my partner has a mental illness.  I am never NOT going to have some aspect of that in my life.  I get in deep doo doo really quickly when I start down the path of 'in a normal relationship I shouldn't have too... .'.   I chose to have a relationship with some one who requires different communication skills,  a higher level of validation, more stability and security.     being in that relationship requires me to have a higher level of self care, self awareness, and both internal and external boundaries.    I am not a victim.   my partner is not ~doing~ anything to me.   being in my relationship means, expecting bumps in the road, planning for them and when they occur, not being judgmental about them.

[formflier]

Mods, want to break this out a separate, "messages to kids about conflict" thread?  Getting close to full on this thread.

What kind of things do you think you can say to reassure the kids and validate their experience? Tell them it's OK to feel sad? To feel scared? Tell them that anyone would be upset by some things that have happened recently?

Can you tell them that things will be different going forward? (Or maybe you can't promise that.)

Have you discussed the particular issue of what your kids are likely experiencing with a counselor of your own? Would it be worth working out some messages to give the kids with a professional at some point?

This is the hill I would personally keep fighting on. I know it's important to you too.  

I'm going to break up my replies.  So, in this one, I'll deal with kids.  I've got 8.  They are all at different places, ages and ability to process.

S15:  Seems the most pissed/avoidant of me.  I suspect is embarrased that this happened in front of cousins and worried his family will end up like theirs.  The oldest cousin is likely a scratch, one messed up kid.  Has figured out the system, manipulates counselors, parents, school officials against each other.  At his age when things were nuclear between his parents, well, he remembers all of it.  He is 17.  15 year old remembers some, will likely turn out better, but I suspect will act like an adolescent well into his 20s and perhaps later.  There is hope for niece 13 who remembers little of the bad stuff.  

Anyway, sorry back to my main points.  S15 is avoidant.  I speak and I'm friendly but I don't push it.  Mommy seemed to grab him as substitute hubby/henchman and he has been the one that has been forced into "testifying" the most against me.  Sigh, I suspect this will be day 1 issue in MC.  Not sure that can be dealt with without a trained person in room.  Note:  I doubt it gets solved on day one.  We have solved it many times before, my wife knows and has heard it is bad.  

S13 is warmer towards me.  Conversations are easy.  Suspect we'll have conversation over the weekend.  I won't have full on appointment with T until next week.  Not sure I want to wait that long.

D10.  R/s is back to normal or closer than ever.  She seems to be pushing to hang with me.

S7.  Seems to be pushing to hang with me or do his own thing.  This boy has more energy than any male child I have ever seen.  If it can be carefully directed, he will accomplish amazing things.  I've raised three boys by time he came along.  Figured anything that could be climbed, destroyed, dismantled etc etc, well, I figured I has seen it all.  Nope, he brought some serious new game.

D5 and D2.5 (3 in march) seem to be doing well and spend time with Daddy.  I got a complete medical exam last nigh from the "nurses", complete with instructions to be still while getting "shots".  I suspect I won't say anything to them until I get professional advice.

College kids S20 and D18 I maintain text and phone contact.  Won't address this issue with them, until I see them in person, or a major change.

I suspect a trigger in all this trigger stacking is D18 is going to skip some college classes in Feb, come home and have a growth removed from her breast.  99.9% sure is is non-cancerous through biopsies.  100% sure it will continue to grow and grow fast.  Likely a genetic thing I passed on to her.  I've had some lovely chunkies cut out of me.  Luckily all non-cancerous.

Ok, I get it that FF is biased Dad here, but when college photographers are seeking out your daughter to put in brochures and posters, well, I think the rest of the world thinks she is gorgeous as well.  When we go to horse shows, lots of young men in boots and big buckles appear out of nowhere to "help me", sigh.  

Luckily she sill seems to have a sense of humility about who she is.  I get it that we all use our imaginations to figure out what each other are really like.  She is an 18 year old Cat Familiar.  No doubt that she would hop out of car and finish off a deer regardless of what she is wearing, no doubt.

Anyway, goal of surgery is to get this thing out and preserve all the milk ducts and hopefully not damage appearance of breast too much.  We think we have found the right surgeon, lots of experience in just this thing.

I guess I'll circle back around to say that I have goal of initial talk (mention and listen) with S13, D10 and S7 this weekend.  Will get each by themselves, maybe go get some chicken nuggets, who knows.

Will sweeten up the message after meeting with my T.

FF

[formflier]

It will get better (treatment or whatever) or we will split.  

FIL (in my opinion) has been pushed around by his BPDish wife for all his marriage.  I think she is the reason my wife is the way she is.

Good question though, I wasn't clear earlier.

FF

I see.  I had thought that his advice pertained to you choosing to remain in the relationship, but it seems that he was more telling you to resign yourself to unacceptable behavior.  I didn't realize you were undecided about staying.  I do think he's right, however, that if you want to stay that you are going to have to accept.  

I think there is some important nuance here (I am a stayer).  I've decided and held firm to several things (about my boundaries and what I will and won't accept) over time and sleep deprivation is another one I am now crystal clear on.  

Offhand, spanking is another.  (the CPS drama).  I've seen other posters on here mention it is more important to focus on the actions of a pwBPD than their words.  My wife will still mention that other kids need to be spanked, she has never mentioned ours again.  I suspect it could be baiting for a fight.  I don't engage.  My attitude is that my wife can talk about it, want to do it all she wants.  That's her business and I shouldn't try to control her thoughts and words.  She knows that I will "die on that hill" and has chosen to take her fights elsewhere.  I'm good with that.

With my medical conditions/disabilities in their current state, I can't afford to have sleep be a battlefield.  I will lose that fight.  Note:  There is a difference in an inconsiderate person, that lowers volume or takes corrective action and one that uses sleep/noise as a weapon.  If this becomes a regular pattern she has to go live somewhere else, end of story.  Note:  I don't think it will come to that, but I am in the process of preparing.  

I've had conversations recently with the family T that did so much good for our family.  He, like many of you said she responds well to positions of strength and when she perceives me being wimpy it fuels her fire.  He suspects that she is looking for strength in her husband that she didn't get from her father (who didn't protect her from her mom).  When she shows me contempt she is "really" showing contempt for her father for being a wuss, but can't express that in a "normal" way.

I didn't know where my lineman pliers were (still hoping to find them today in my unpacking of garage/shop) but I will keep a pair handy (and hidden).  The plan I worked out with family T was for me to get myself to a place of serenity and "businesslike" approach.  If TV is used as a weapon again, walk out and properly ask for relief/quiet.  If I get "flipped the bird" again.  To calmly say, "You go somewhere else to watch TV", snip the power cord, and go back to bed.

He stressed over an over that it was important for me to be "un emotional" while doing this and to let her sort out her own reactions to this.

Basically, he is telling me to show more strength, but only when I can "control it"

FF

[formflier]

I'd add one area that you *probably* don't need a reminder of.

Keep reminders and questions coming.  All of you.  I really appreciate it.

L meeting will go forward, regardless of what happens or how good it gets.  I had conversation with his secretary (after getting referred to him from my legal plan) and first consult is free (because of legal plan) and he will have recommendations and options for me (with associated costs).

I suspect my short term focus would be on being prepared for legal separation with child custody in the event of "kid grabs" or other strong arm tactics.  Likelihood that I would ever file for divorce as an "opening move" are extremely low.  I don't want to be divorced. 

T meeting will go forward and from talk on phone will likely proceed weekly through "intake" and many sessions so we can get to know each other and be up to speed.  I am so thankful that I have established Ts and pastors that are available via phone, but I'm also aware there is no substitute for sitting in someones office.

FF