Background info and question

[BookerBB]

From what I have read and in talking with some professionals over the years I believe my daughter-in-law has BPD. My son seems to be in somewhat denial and is defensive. They have been married for 21 years. She had been diagnosed as bipolar and took meds when they first married, but later decided she was misdiagnosed about 6 years ago. She has since been estranged from her parents and brother. I began to notice some lashing out statements in particular about 4 years ago towards me. But when she is good, she is great! The relationship between her and my granddaughter has been quite erratic. She(granddaughter) came to live with me for five months at one time when she was 16. She is now 17. My grandson, 19, seems to deflect the situation easier than the granddaughter. My granddaughter tried to commit suicide about 11 months ago. Fortunately, she did not succeed with an overdose of medication. Within the last two months friction has escalated. My daughter-in-law has been in and out of the home. The grandchildren are at home with my son. Now my son is not communicating at all with his Dad and me. He talks some with his two sisters. I do not know about anyone else. I feel at a loss with this silence. Do I try to reach out or just let it be for now? I think I am being blamed for the troubles in their home because I have been sympathetic with my granddaughter. Advice?

[HappyChappy]

I’m sorry to hear about the attempted suicide and problems with your daughter in law. You can’t rule out BPD based on what you’ve said. It is also often misdiagnosed as Bi-Polar. But BPD is genetic, so there’s a chance one of the children may also have it. Suicide and self hard are common amoung those with BPD.

I would highly recommend you ensure the grand children are aware you are there for them, even if they don’t respond. A BPD will always project the blame away, and will try and control their brood by pushing other relatives or influences away. So it’s standard procedure for then to bad mouth relatives. There are techniques on this website such as S.E.T. that can help communication with a BPD. However the kids are getting to an age they can leave of their own accord. My mom had BPD and her kids all fled as far away as we could once it was legally allowable – but of course you need money for that. But do keep the lines open for the kids. You could always drop  some hint that you’re aware of BPD, using the Alice in Wonderland or Wizard of Oz connection. Possibly whatching a film like “Mommy Dearest”. I hope this helps.  

[BookerBB]

Many thanks for your insights and suggestions. I determine that reaching out to my son as long as he is  in the midst of drama with his BPD wife is better left alone, but continue to reach out to my teenage grandchildren.  I do text them from time to time.  My granddaughter is the one who responds sometimes in a very positive way.  i am not a person to shut family out if there is a conflict. I come from a background where one puts it out on the table and works it out. So this silence from my son is really tough and lonesome for me. But I do refuse not to be ground down.

[Kwamina]

Hi BookerBB

I would like to join HappyChappy in welcoming you to our online community

BPD is quite a challenging disorder indeed. You believe your DIL (daughter-in-law) has it and the fact that she was once diagnosed bipolar and took meds, definitely indicates something is going on with her. As HappyChappy points out, BPD is indeed sometimes misdiagnosed as bipolar.

Did anything happen in particular 6 years ago around the time she 'decided' she was misdiagnosed?

I am very sorry how all of this is affecting your grandchildren. Your granddaughter even tried to commit suicide. How is your granddaughter doing now? Did she get help for her suicidal ideation? Is she currently (still) getting help?

Your son is currently not communicating with you, I can imagine how hard this must be for you as his mother. He does still communicate with his two sisters. How would you describe his relationship with his sisters?

Your son has been married for quite some time. You say he seems to be somewhat in denial and defensive, that unfortunately is often the case with people involved with someone with BPD. Do you feel like your son has ever truly acknowledged that there might be something wrong with his wife's behavior? He currently seems in denial but were there perhaps times in the past that he seemed less in denial and better able or more willing to deal with reality as it is?

Take care and welcome to bpdfamily

[BookerBB]

Thank you Kwamina! In responding to your questions:

Daughter-in-law used to see a psychiatrist twice a year when she was on meds. She just concluded with the psy. that she could discontinue her meds and could handle any issues with meditation,yoga,etc. This decision caused great conflict with her parents and brother. She has had no communication with them for 6 years. It was her decision. She seemed OK for a couple of years from what I could see, but began her lashing out statements to me 4 years ago. Menopause may play a part in her emotional upheaval, and she quit working 3 years ago. By the spring/summer of 2014 she(DIL) was in a wild rage. That is when my granddaughter came to live with me for 5 months. DIL started medication again in late 2014 when my granddaughter returned home. They did begin counseling in the summer of 2014.

My granddaughter tried to commit suicide about 4 months after returning home. She had to drop out of school last spring. The emotional upheavel was too much. She did begin DBT therapy at that time and has continued it as far as I know. She is now back in school since the fall of 2015 and should graduate this spring. From what I gather she is very nervous about any prospects of her Mother returning home. (I learn this from my daughters)

My son seems to walk on eggshells around DIL, but just seemed to accept it and went along with whatever. I would say he seems to just begin seeing some light of real problems in the last few months. He has a good relationship with his sisters, and they have now mentioned BPD to him. My daughters and I have been sitting on the this idea for a few years, but didn't feel it was our place to bring it up. My son even said to me a couple of years ago that there was nothing wrong with his wife. The problem was the teenagers not abiding by the constant hovering which was being done by their mother in particular. She kept a constant vigil about their grades, texting, homework, social life etc. especially after she quit working 3 years ago. The teenagers became her 24 hour job. The grand children are not bad kids, just normal teenage stuff. The FEAR factor seemed to be her constant guide.

So anyway, the silence from my son now seems puzzling except that I seem to.be a good one to blame at this time fpr their problems and  for my feeling protective of my grandchildren. From my daughters I learn that it infuriates my DIL if he connects with his DAd and me. To make mattesr sadder my husband has a terminal illness, and I am his caregiver. I would have hoped that my son would have cared about seeing his Dad, but I guess that is too much on his plate now. He has always been a caring person. This present action is new. It does hurt, but I am trying to be patient.

[Kwamina]

Hi BookerBB

I am glad your granddaughter is getting help because she's been through a lot. I can also understand why she's nervous about her mother returning home.

Based on how you describe your son's and DIL's behavior, I think fear, obligation and guilt are probably a factor here:

... .fear, obligation or guilt ("FOG" are the transactional dynamics at play between the controller and the person being controlled.  Understanding these dynamics are useful to anyone trying to extricate themselves from the controlling behavior by another person and deal with their own compulsions to do things that are uncomfortable, undesirable, burdensome, or self-sacrificing for others.

Do you feel like part of the reason your son is behaving the way he does and going along with his wife is out of fear, obligation and/or guilt?

You can read more about this subject here:

Fear, Obligation And Guilt (FOG): How We Allow Loved Ones To Control Us

[BookerBB]

WOW! FOG explains a lot! I wish my son could read this. I am not sure how much or any professional help he is receiving or if he is reading much about this disorder. I can share this with my daughters, and perhaps they can share this FOG with him in some way. From this it sounds like I will just need to be patient and wait for him to make any overture. My daughters shared with me that DIL had tole my son that she knows how sick his Dad is, but that my son needs to concentrate on his own immediate family--wife, son, daughter. Once DIL told me just to think about their living thousands of miles away(we live nearby). All of this seems to fit. Many thanks, Kwamina!

[Kwamina]

Many thanks, Kwamina!

You're welcome

I am sorry to hear your husband is so seriously ill though. That also must be very tough for you, also the fact that you are his primary caregiver.

Hopefully your son will be able to extricate himself from the FOG a bit and go see his dad.

[BookerBB]

I am in a workshop all day tomorrow. One of my daughters is staying with her Dad. She decided to contact her brother to see if they could connect while she was with her Dad. He said YES! So the three of them plus my granddaughter ad grandson are going to lunch together. We will keep our fingers crossed that it happens. Will let you know how it goes. I am not sure where DIL is at this moment,

Thanks again for being in touch, Kwamina!

[BookerBB]

The lunch did happen with my daughter taking her Dad to have lunch with our son, granddaughter, and grandson. The gathering was cordial and happy without getting into the problems at hand. My husband has moderate dementia in addition to other health problems. He was just happy to see his son and grandchildren and really cannot lend anything to the problem at hand. I did learn that our son did mention to our daughter that he needed to write me a letter.  I am not sure what that means. He has never done that before. I have been reading more abut FOG. It seems to fit very well with what has been happening in that home for years. DIL is still away, but communicates often with my son from what I can gather. My daughter said that our granddaughter seemed especially good.   That was heart warming! I am still trying to be patient about our son communicating with me.

[Kwamina]

Thanks for the update BookerBB!

I am very glad the lunch did happen. It's a first step and I find that encouraging Great that your husband finally got to see his son again.

Interesting indeed that your son told his sister that he needs to send you a letter. I hope that will turn out to be the next positive step he makes. Just have to wait and see for now... .

Your granddaughter has been through a lot so it's great that she seems to be doing better

[BookerBB]

Today I just happened to run into my granddaughter and did get to talk with her for a brief while. It was so good to see her as it had been over 2 months. She did let me know that she did not approve of this tactic of silence from her Dad and Mom. And I got to let her know how much I have appreciated her texts to me as she is the only only in the family to correspond... Her brother does not respond either. She stated that he was the one right now being given a hard time by their parents. Two teachers at school have been and are very supportive of my granddaughter for the last two years. She realizes how fortunate she is to have them. My DIL has now been home for a few days. My granddaughter does not know how long she is there to stay. My DIL and granddaughter do not speak.

About 5 days ago I sent my son a short email with feelings from the heart--kind and loving. A big concern I have is that his Dad is slowly slipping away, and it would be comforting to have our son be a part of our lives. But nothing from our son so far. I have not seen him in two months, and it has been about six weeks since a text. We all live in the same town. My heart is aching. I feel he is most likely being told to keep away from the DIL --I am a scapegoat. Is there anything I can do? The FOG is very understandable. Is there hope? 

[Kwamina]

More wonderful news, great that you got to see your daughter even if it was just for a little while. In spite of everything the two of you fortunately still have a good bond

Hopefully in time her brother will also start responding to your texts again. When someone has BPD this impacts the entire family. His parents are currently giving him a hard time so he's also dealing with a lot right now. Whether he responds or not, I think it is good that you let him know that you care and think about them. I agree with what HappyChappy said at the beginning of this thread that knowing that you are there for them is very important. In the long-run but also in the short-run this can make a huge difference in their lives.

About 5 days ago I sent my son a short email with feelings from the heart--kind and loving. A big concern I have is that his Dad is slowly slipping away, and it would be comforting to have our son be a part of our lives. But nothing from our son so far. I have not seen him in two months, and it has been about six weeks since a text. We all live in the same town. My heart is aching. I feel he is most likely being told to keep away from the DIL --I am a scapegoat. Is there anything I can do? The FOG is very understandable. Is there hope?  

Letting him know that you care might be all you can do at the moment. But just as with your grandkids this too can be very important in the long-run. I do believe there is hope. The situation is quite challenging, but I do believe there is hope. Your DIL might not change, but hopefully your son will change and learn to set boundaries with his wife. Whether they change or not though, is ultimately out of your hand. You cannot control them, but you can control what you do yourself. We describe several communication techniques on this website such as validation and S.E.T. that you might find helpful in communicating with both your son and his wife.

[BookerBB]

Since my last writing to you I sent an email to my son a week reaching out let him know how much we want him and his family to be a part of our lives again. i asked forgiveness for anything i have done to cause problems and how to move forward. It has been two months since I have seen him and about six weeks since the last text message. DIL is at home at the moment, but I do not know for how long. Still only silence! It feels like a death. The bright spot is that I did run into my granddaughter two days ago. We had a brief conversation,and it was good to see her. She says she disagrees with her parent's tactics toward me. Is there any HOPE here? I believe the FOG explains a lot, but apparently my son doesn't want to delve into this drama. What next?

[BookerBB]

Just after my post a few minutes ago your response to my post a few days ago popped up. i figured my post a few days ago had been lost in cyberspace. MANY THANKS! Your words are soothing. I will keep on keeping on and be thankful that my granddaughter continues to connect with texts. I will continue to be in touch.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi BookerBB!

I'm slow to pop in and welcome you but better late than never   

I read with interest your posts and the responses, and had some thoughts I wish to share from my own experiences. While reading of your concerns and caring for your granddaughter as well as others in your family, I've had so many reminders of my own life. I grew up in a household with an uBPDm. My brother was 3 years older than, so similar ages to your grandchildren. When I was 10 and my brother was 13 and in 7th grade, he began exerting his desire to be more independent and make his own choices. My uBPDm convinced our dad to take us out of public school and enroll us in a Christian school. She was able to control us and set the stage to get what she wanted because we had to wear uniforms, he had to have his hair cut short, and on the list goes. When I 'tried' to spread my wings a few years later, they were severly clipped. The saga continued of her controlling us, limiting our attempts to become who we were meant to be.

Fast forward to when I was able to learn to drive.  There came a point in time when my mom began saying, "I don't know what happened; you and I used to be so close." I know what happened... .I was finally able to escape. She didn't like it, and the noose kept tightening around my life. I felt so helpless and hopeless with barely any joy except for when I was at school and away from home.

You said that it was about 6 years ago that your DIL started getting noticeably worse, and when I do the math, that puts your grandchildren at 13 and 10. Then at 4 years ago, the lashing out began, and the kids were now 15 (pre-driving) and 12 (jr high).  Do you think it's possible that your DIL senses the loosing of her way of life like my mom did? A big part of a BPD is the fear of rejection, and she may be facing this big time. When your granddaughter was 16, she attempted suicide. Is it possible that she also felt hopeless and trapped? I am so very sorry for the terrible fear, sadness, and anxiety you must've felt. I'm sure you still worry. How wonderful that she knows you are there for her.  . My grandparents were a big part of my life and I clung to them as best I could (but that's a story for another time). I hope there may be some added    for you from my own story. Keep hanging in there!


Wools

[BookerBB]

Hello Wools!

Thanks so much for sharing your story! It sounds very similar--circumstances, ages, mother reaction, etc. This summer my granddaughter will be 18, and my grandson will be 20. i know they both want out, but completely cutting the ties is not easy due to $$. I definitely believe that DIL fears losing them and wants the nest undisturbed with no outside influences. My granddaughter is the most adamant about getting out. Your description of no joy, helpless, and hopeless are exactly how I sense my granddaughter feeling. It has been a year since she tried to commit suicide. She does know how much I love her, and I have listened over the years. Her Mom does not listen. She just commands, and now resents the relationship I have had with the granddaughter and grandson. I think they have been told not to communicate with me, but granddaughter pays little attention.

How did you finally break away? Do you continue to have a relationship with your Mom? How is your life now? Any particular advice for me, the grandmother?

Many, many thanks for your time.

BookerBB

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi BookerBB,

I guess my first step towards breking away was that I went to a college that was 14 hrs from home. As I look back , of course I can see that the college I chose was very strict (Christian) which was reflective of the imposed parameters that I was used to living within. It was the  stepping away and being on my own at least and I loved it. My mom's control would reappear when she came to visit or whenever I went home. In fact, my first summer home I recall her raging at me and telling me, "I don't care what you learned at college and how independent you became. You WILL follow my rules!" She left my dad in my 2nd year of college. For years and years I blamed myself for the breakup because I had left for college. It was connected to mom's comment: "When you left for college,  I lost my best friend."  Classic BPD with FOG.

I'm so glad to hear that your granddaughter ignores her mom's instructions to have NC (no contact) with you. My uBPDm also told us to have NC, and sadly when I was 12, she banned us from seeing my dad's family. Tough when they only lived a house away. No aunts or uncles or grandparents. My Gma passed away a few months after that. But... .here's good news!   : Some years after I got married I began having contact with them again. It's been a slow but sure process and so good! I feel like I have family all over again. I am sad for all the lost years and am doing my best to rejoice in each moment I have with them now. I'm 52 so you can see it's been a long journey away from 'the border(line).'

Some way your granddaughter will find a way out. Does she have a job yet? I think you said she'll be graduating soon? Keep those lines of communication open, validate her, encourage her, and most of all, love her for who she is without any strings attached. If she knows you are available to help her, that will be a light in the dark for her.

Have you read any books about BPD that have helped you to understand more of who her mom really is? Have you ever considered some T for yourself to help you wade through the tough spots? If you can find a T familiar with BPD, they'll have a better idea of how to help you. I first learned about BPD in 2009 in a college textbook when I went back to finish my degree.


Wools

[BookerBB]

Thanks for sharing again, Woolspinner!

My  granddaughter is in the midst of getting a parttime job before she graduates. I am not sure what she will do about college as her parents are offering no support in $$. And at the same time her Mom does not work and has not for three years. She really does nothing. My grandson goes to the community college, and my gd may do the same. But she wants away---maybe even to live in another country as an aupair.

I have not read any books on BPD, but I have searched a lot on line. It sounds like an absolute horrible state of mind, and real help can only come if one recognizes it and wants to do something about it. During the last few months of silence it sounded as if my son was beginning to see the light of what was going on in the family. But now everything appears to be back at square one due to FOG--I suppose. I only get updates from my daughters.

I have begun to see a therapist, again, in order to deal with all the loss I am feeling in my life at this time.

Thanks for your words of encouragement and guidelines with my gd. She is a bight spot in all of this drama.

It surely sounds as if you have been able to make your way to a good place in life even with all the hurdles of tough times. That says a lot!

[Woolspinner2000]

I'm glad you are in T to help you deal with this situation and the loss you are feeling, BookerBB. Is your T trained or familiar with BPD?

I wanted to give you a link to some books that you could look into. The first one is Surviving a Borderline Parent. This would be the very first book I picked up about borderlines, and it has been my go-to ever since.  Here is a link for you:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=68021.0 

The other book may help with understanding more than anything. It is titled Understanding the Borderline Mother:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=53779.0.

This one can be a tough read, and has been for many of us survivors of a pwBPD. Check at your library to see if they have copies available for you to check out.

How are you doing right now? It is truly wonderful that you are not only educating yourself but that you are also caring for your family as much as you can and also that you are caring for yourself in this situation. It is tougher than anyone can imagine unless you are there or have been there.


Wools

[BookerBB]

Hello Woolspinner2000! I am just seeing the post which you sent me almost two weeks ago. Thanks for the info on more reading. Life has not changed about anything. Silence reigns. I never received a letter which my son had told one of my daughters he was going to send. My DIL is now at home and seems there to stay from what I can gather, Things seem to be back at the old square one. I feel strongly that my DIL is convinced that I am the cause of all the problems because of my relationship with my granddaughter in particular. I am not sure that BPD person can ever change their perspective when they are convinced that their feelings are the truth. I feel she is continuing to convince my son of this feeling. So I suppose things are at a stalemate with no communication. I am going to continue to read your suggestions. MAYBE time will bring a new light. I can only hope. Many thanks!

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi again BookerBB,

I posted some thoughts under another thread about grandparents under the topic "Grandparent alienation" https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=291714.0

which I thought might be helpful to you as well. I am rather wordy in that post so thought I would refer you to it rather than type another long book here! I was also thinking of you when I typed, even though your grandchildren are older.

What have you been able to do to maintain contact with your grandchildren in spite of the discouraging situation? Have you been able to celebrate birthdays or holidays with them over the years at all or give them gifts?

Wools

[BookerBB]

Many thanks, Wools, for your connect to the grandparent alienation site. This all started at Christmas time with the silent treatment. One of my daughters delivered my gifts to them. I did get a thank you text from both of them. No more contact from my grandson since then. I have the feeling he is marching to the parent's orders. My granddaughter does send a text from time to time. My daughters did take my husband out to lunch this weekend and invited my son to go. He and his wife did come. It was an amicable time with no reference to the situation. My daughters were keeping their Dad while I was out of town for the day. I am still waiting for some contact. The ball is in my son's court.

Thanks, again for your sharing.