I have FINALLY realised that he doesn't love me

[Lifewriter16]

I have finally realised that my BPDxbf doesn't love me. Now, I feel like I'm carrying a 'dark' sadness associated with abuse and mistreatment rather than the acute pain of loss of love. I have resisted drawing this conclusion for well over a year. I have clung onto my belief that somehow, we were different, that we were star-crossed lovers, doomed but still in 'love'.

What a load of bo!ocks I have been feeding myself.

I so needed someone to love me because I felt so empty. I so needed to love someone else because I felt so alone. These things made it hard to dismantle that false belief system. However, that was exactly what needed to happen for me to move forward.

Love

Lifewriter x

[gotbushels]

Hi LW:)

I think this is important.

I really relate to this:

What a load of bo!ocks I have been feeding myself.

I admit I fed myself things like "We're 'star-crossed' lovers fighting against all odds." I looked for every single reason I could find to stay positive. I did really unhealthy things to cater to that kind of belief.

I so needed ... .I felt so empty. I so needed to ... .I felt so alone. ... .exactly what needed to happen ... .for me.

Yes. No one could really tell me that I had my own asinine gathering of beliefs. Ahem *uninformed* gathering of beliefs. I had to figure it out and play a greater role myself. How many times have you "discarded" your "ego" to learn "insight" and none resulted? Scumbag self-help... .

I so needed someone to love me because I felt so empty. I so needed to love someone else because I felt so alone. These things made it hard to dismantle that false belief system. However, that was exactly what needed to happen for me to move forward.

Perhaps you're right. Perhaps it requires that we feel that we can live without the person. A willingness to let go of that person, or a wish to really remove them from our mental lives, is required before we can reduce the power of the unhealthy beliefs. Doesn't the willingness to let go of the physical marker of the unhealthy belief mean we are more willing to let go of that belief?

A knowing that removing them does not mean we are empty. A knowing that removing them doesn't mean we're alone. A knowing that we don't need an idea of galactic battling for "star-crossed" lovers to be really happy. Perhaps--a knowing that we can do better than the extreme examples leftover from our parents--or the extreme path we may have jumped to in reaction to that.

Abusive relationships and ones where partners give very little aren't right. Relationships where partners give everything aren't right either. Surely that leaves an area that is right, we can see that we have the choice. Not only can we choose to say, "No."--now we have an option C relationship--take that Romeo and Juliet!

Well done on your experience of this. Best wishes with your moving forward:)

[patientandclear]

LW, I have sometimes felt the appeal of this kind of stark categorization -- it can be a sort of shock to the system to say words out loud like "he doesn't love me," and it can shake you loose from some automatic assumptions and habits.  So I offer this, not because I don't think there is a place for this sort of conclusion, but because I've found it not to be very stable.

My sense from reading your past posts is that there probably are memories, experiences and feelings that will crop up that are at odds with this very black and white conclusion.  And if your road forward depends on the belief that "he doesn't love me," what happens when you start to doubt that?

I find that a more stable foundation is something like "I know in my gut that he had genuine feelings for me and probably still does, buried in several layers of denial and rationalization about what eventually happened.  The feelings I know in my gut he had are feelings we typically call love and that I regard as love.  However, based on his own actual experience, he has a very hard time trusting that those feelings will be sustained and his self-protective reactions/coping mechanisms trigger my own legitimate fears, based on my own actual experience, and my self-protective responses then compound his sense that the love feelings are not trustworthy.  As a result, he acts in ways that I find unhealthy for me and I am choosing not to continue to participate in that cycle.  It is not because there was not love, but because neither of us could (and in my case, I don't think that I should) maintain those feelings in the face of the other person's actions."

I have many memories (interestingly, memories he seems to have obliterated, speaking to self-protective coping mechanisms) where I know what was going on with us was love, and was good.  It was not desperate, using, or fake.  It was freely offered and freely accepted.  There is no other word for it but love.  If you felt that in your gut, I don't know that it's necessary to deny it entirely, in order to conclude that you don't want to continue to participate in what happens between the two of you.  My ex loved me, participated with me in some really wonderful experiences, AND took me for granted, under-valued me, was deceptive, didn't follow through, destroyed my trust and was careless with what we'd built.  These are all true.  Putting them together allows me to make decisions about how I want to deal with the situation that aren't built on the quicksand of "it was ALL using" or "it was never love."  That conclusion may not be solid enough to be the foundation of healing.

[Lifewriter16]

Hi patientandclear,

I must admit that I did expect someone to call me on this black and white statement:

LW, I have sometimes felt the appeal of this kind of stark categorization -- it can be a sort of shock to the system to say words out loud like "he doesn't love me," and it can shake you loose from some automatic assumptions and habits.  So I offer this, not because I don't think there is a place for this sort of conclusion, but because I've found it not to be very stable.

My sense from reading your past posts is that there probably are memories, experiences and feelings that will crop up that are at odds with this very black and white conclusion.  And if your road forward depends on the belief that "he doesn't love me," what happens when you start to doubt that?

I find that a more stable foundation is something like "I know in my gut that he had genuine feelings for me and probably still does, buried in several layers of denial and rationalization about what eventually happened.  The feelings I know in my gut he had are feelings we typically call love and that I regard as love.  However, based on his own actual experience, he has a very hard time trusting that those feelings will be sustained and his self-protective reactions/coping mechanisms trigger my own legitimate fears, based on my own actual experience, and my self-protective responses then compound his sense that the love feelings are not trustworthy.  As a result, he acts in ways that I find unhealthy for me and I am choosing not to continue to participate in that cycle.  It is not because there was not love, but because neither of us could (and in my case, I don't think that I should) maintain those feelings in the face of the other person's actions."

I do get what you are saying, and I think you are right. But, it is quite a mouthful to say to myself when I am vulnerable to contacting him. Right now, I need anything I've got to keep away from him. I don't want my kids taken off me because I'm caught associating with him. I do believe he thought he loved me at one time and that what he said was genuinely felt, but what he loved most was the idea that I was going to make his life right, meet all his needs, heal him... .he didn't love me, only what he thought I was doing for him. As soon as I came into the picture, as soon as I started asking for my needs met, things went drastically wrong. He did use me, right from the start. Perhaps in the future, I can try and integrate the greys, but up to now, trying to integrate the greys has left me in a state. If he believes I don't love him anymore (which he probably does) and I believe he doesn't love me anymore (and he's probably cut off from all feelings of love because that's what he normally does) then it might just be better all round. I'll be recovering from the trauma of the relationship. I might be lonely for a while but at least I'll be alive.

Love Lifewriter x

[Lifewriter16]

Hi LW:)

I think this is important.

I really relate to this:

What a load of bo!ocks I have been feeding myself.

I admit I fed myself things like "We're 'star-crossed' lovers fighting against all odds." I looked for every single reason I could find to stay positive. I did really unhealthy things to cater to that kind of belief.

I so needed ... .I felt so empty. I so needed to ... .I felt so alone. ... .exactly what needed to happen ... .for me.

Yes. No one could really tell me that I had my own asinine gathering of beliefs. Ahem *uninformed* gathering of beliefs. I had to figure it out and play a greater role myself. How many times have you "discarded" your "ego" to learn "insight" and none resulted? Scumbag self-help... .

I so needed someone to love me because I felt so empty. I so needed to love someone else because I felt so alone. These things made it hard to dismantle that false belief system. However, that was exactly what needed to happen for me to move forward.

Perhaps you're right. Perhaps it requires that we feel that we can live without the person. A willingness to let go of that person, or a wish to really remove them from our mental lives, is required before we can reduce the power of the unhealthy beliefs. Doesn't the willingness to let go of the physical marker of the unhealthy belief mean we are more willing to let go of that belief?

A knowing that removing them does not mean we are empty. A knowing that removing them doesn't mean we're alone. A knowing that we don't need an idea of galactic battling for "star-crossed" lovers to be really happy. Perhaps--a knowing that we can do better than the extreme examples leftover from our parents--or the extreme path we may have jumped to in reaction to that.

Abusive relationships and ones where partners give very little aren't right. Relationships where partners give everything aren't right either. Surely that leaves an area that is right, we can see that we have the choice. Not only can we choose to say, "No."--now we have an option C relationship--take that Romeo and Juliet!

Well done on your experience of this. Best wishes with your moving forward:)

Yes, I want the option C relationship. Ironically, that was what I thought I was getting when I met my BPDxbf but I was reckless about ignoring red flags. I assumed that because he was in therapy, when he said 'I used to do x, y and z but now I don't', I believed him. More fool me.


I have been reading 'From Abandonment to Healing' and I think I'm in the internalising phase and moving into stage 4 (anger). I suspect the anger phase is characterised by black and white thinking. I guess I could be making a few more militant posts in the next few weeks. I'll moderate in time... .


Thanks

Lifewriter x

[gotbushels]

I was thinking about you LW. Even though it seems that you've spent a lot of time on your struggles, I encourage you to take heart. Keep looking for progress. Get it. Keep looking for satisfaction. Get it. Keep looking for what is supposed to be healthy according to the appropriate teachers and sources. Get it. Know your collection of "got it"s.

Sometimes what we think is done is really obstructing us. I have been working on something for more than 10 years. I thought I had solved the thing multiple times. Turns out I have still further to go. I try to focus on the journey and the things I indeed did gain, instead of the great pain of learning and discovery. I try not to focus on the disappointment that I am still learning this thing even after so much time. It's a strange feeling. Like a happy dying. Without unhealthy thoughts.

I got validation of what was somewhat true, but not completely true. I thought what I doing was right from a variety of "practical" sources I deeply admire. I thought examples like this were extremely validating toward my path--that is, they held a lot of validating "weight". It gave me confidence I was on the right path. Yet, something kept nagging me. At times, this made me feel like a child. How can I lead my family or people I care about if I am in this state? I am more okay with wanting that. Not all fear is bad. During this time, I've found it pays me to be some combination of gentle and tenacious to myself at the same time.

Even if you feel you're way past this point, congratulations on your continuing progress Take heart and I hope you have peace. Thank you.

[Lifewriter16]

Hi gotbushels,

Thank you for your post. I have literally just woken up and read your post.

I was thinking about you LW. Even though it seems that you've spent a lot of time on your struggles, I encourage you to take heart. Keep looking for progress. Get it. Keep looking for satisfaction. Get it. Keep looking for what is supposed to be healthy according to the appropriate teachers and sources. Get it. Know your collection of "got it"s.

Sometimes what we think is done is really obstructing us. I have been working on something for more than 10 years. I thought I had solved the thing multiple times. Turns out I have still further to go. I try to focus on the journey and the things I indeed did gain, instead of the great pain of learning and discovery. I try not to focus on the disappointment that I am still learning this thing even after so much time. It's a strange feeling. Like a happy dying. Without unhealthy thoughts.

I got validation of what was somewhat true, but not completely true. I thought what I doing was right from a variety of "practical" sources I deeply admire. I thought examples like this were extremely validating toward my path--that is, they held a lot of validating "weight". It gave me confidence I was on the right path. Yet, something kept nagging me. At times, this made me feel like a child. How can I lead my family or people I care about if I am in this state? I am more okay with wanting that. Not all fear is bad. During this time, I've found it pays me to be some combination of gentle and tenacious to myself at the same time.

Even if you feel you're way past this point, congratulations on your continuing progress Take heart and I hope you have peace. Thank you.

I don't feel that I'm way past this point and yes, something is nagging at me.





Last night I had a dream. I saw a jigsaw that was mainly blue in colour and completed except for 2 missing pieces. I heard the words: "and criticised the person who held the missing piece" and then I saw a hand that held what was very clearly one of the missing pieces.




So, what does this mean? I don't yet know, but it coincides with you thinking about me and my situation. I'm inclined to think it is trying to tell me something.


I am going to this project for battered women and I can relate to the feelings that they are having and yet I don't feel at peace with it because my cicumstances don't seem that extreme and the perspective on the abuse is that it is wilful and deliberate and very victim-based. I'm reading the books that have been written by professionals who work with men who abuse/murder partners and end up on projects for abusers. These authors have heard what these men say about their wives and their motivations for those actions. Surely I can trust that they are right? But, I'm not sure I can... .perhaps they have half the picture.

My BPDxbf keeps telling me that I am angry with him. Yesterday he wished me peace (my immediate internal reaction was, how dare he think I need peace? But perhaps he's right.) Yesterday, I read a transcript of a text exchange that we had had. In that exchange, I clearly jumped on my BPDxbf because he wanted to know if we were still meeting on Saturday. I was quite hostile and it was out of the blue except for the implied message carried by the words of the text. I saw either insecurity on his part (I didn't want to see him) or rejection (perhaps he didn't want to see me). And I gave him a real pasting for it. Perhaps I should have read the whole exchange? But I couldn't face it. He says our relationship won't work until I admit that I'm angry with him. I don't feel angry when he's saying this. He says this whilst he raging at me. Given the tendencies for pwBPD to project, it's been easy to assume that it was merely projection on his part and not projection on mine. What if he does actually have a  point? What if I am in denial and he's angry because he's frustrated with me, in the way that I think he is angry and I'm frustrated with him?

Here's an event from the past that makes me question what is going on. When I worked for the UK civil service, I used to chat to a man at work. There was nothing in it, just chatting. I think he was being supportive. I always approached him at his desk. One time, after we no longer worked on the same floor, he came to talk to me at my desk. I really overreacted. I felt like he wanted a relationship that I didn't want/almost felt sick to my stomach at the thought of it. All he had done was take the initiative and approach me instead of me approaching him. Whether he had any other intentions, I didn't know. But, from that point, I felt uncomfortable.

My BPDxbf approaches me all the time rather than leaving it to me to get in touch. I am used to having to make the first move. I am used to men who are not interested. I'm not used to being pursued. My BPDxbf pursues me and I hate it. I suspect he does love me but I can't bear his 'neediness'. Perhaps it's a control issue. It has got to the point where the minute I hear from him, I get anxiety symptoms which are alleviated by getting rid of him.


There's something going on here that belongs to me, not to him... .


Thank you for thinking about me.


LWx

[ambivalentmom]

Maybe the dream represents the relationship.  We want to criticise the exBPD for holding a missing piece, but there are actually two pieces missing from the puzzle.  We are holding the second missing piece by being co-dependent.  We are not taking care of our own piece of the puzzle and focusing on the person holding the other piece, so the puzzle will never be complete anyway.  Just a thought.

I've read that we have trouble looking at our own hands in our dreams (they get distorted), so maybe that's why you didn't see the other piece in your own hand.

[ambivalentmom]

I hope that interpretation was not too forward, I analyzed the dream this way because I still have anxiety/PTSD from my ex, last seperated in 2010 (email only contact in 2011).  It's been 5-6 years, I should not be concerned with him.  I hope most of it is because we have D13 together and I'm afraid for her, but he still can push buttons.  I have to remind myself that his words hold no value and anything outside of conversations about D13 is not worth my time or thought.  Very hard though, I tend to take blame for the problems of others too often.

[eeks]

I am going to this project for battered women and I can relate to the feelings that they are having and yet I don't feel at peace with it because my cicumstances don't seem that extreme and the perspective on the abuse is that it is wilful and deliberate and very victim-based. I'm reading the books that have been written by professionals who work with men who abuse/murder partners and end up on projects for abusers. These authors have heard what these men say about their wives and their motivations for those actions. Surely I can trust that they are right? But, I'm not sure I can... .perhaps they have half the picture.

Hi LW,

In my opinion, the only emotions and perceptions that you need to "trust that they are right" are your own.  That's where it gets complicated, though.  A common if not defining feature of dysfunctional families is that they (in various ways) teach children not to trust their own thoughts, feelings and desires. 

And so, although putting an intellectual sort of trust ("they are educated and have researched the topic so they must be right" in these professional authors of books about abuse may be a necessary intermediate step, the ultimate goal in my view is to use the theories and opinions of others to access your own real feelings about the events in your life history.

Another thing to keep in mind is that because your parents were emotionally neglectful, I will not go so far as to say that you "don't know what 'normal' looks and feels like", but your reference points may be limited.  You had no choice (as a child) but to accept an unhealthy situation as "normal" so it might be worth asking yourself whether you have a tendency as a result to minimize, i.e. tell yourself that what you went through was "not that bad". 

My other question is, what is it in you that makes you want to "compare" your experience of abuse to others - "my circumstances don't seem that extreme"?  It reminds me of something you said about your parents' religious beliefs, I don't remember the exact details, your mother maybe, talking about the people suffering worse than your family.  Which may be true, but it's a form of emotional invalidation, may have served to keep the focus on your parents and their unmet needs, and in my opinion true feelings of charity and generosity have never been motivated by shame or guilt.  You get to have your own real feelings about what happened to you, as a child or as an adult (note that feelings are different from actions taken in response to those feelings), regardless of "who has it worse".

There is nothing about admitting that what happened to you "really was that bad" that contradicts being responsible for your role in the relationship. What we want is a true, honest account of things, no more no less. 

and the perspective on the abuse is that it is wilful and deliberate and very victim-based.

I'm not sure what you meant here, is it that that is how the abuse is talked about in the therapy group?  Another complicated topic, important questions like, where is the line between having compassion for your partner/ex vs. excusing or minimizing their behaviour?  Where is the line between the important act of allowing and feeling the rage and blame (as distinct from acting on it) which passes and shifts into other important emotions like grief, vs. getting stuck in the blaming phase to the point where it becomes part of your identity? 

I notice that you see-saw back and forth between crucial insights about your ex, realizing that you deserve better treatment in a relationship, and what sounds to me like even a subtle hope that you can "make things turn out right" with him.  For instance... .why are you still in contact with him?  Is there any reason why you need to be?  I'm not judging you for it, or saying you should do different, I'm suggesting that you seriously contemplate the question. 

Let me emphasize that any feelings you have about your ex are valid... .it's OK to want, wish, long, rage... .but what are those feelings really about?  And should you act on them?

eeks 

[myself]

My BPDxbf approaches me all the time rather than leaving it to me to get in touch. I am used to having to make the first move. I am used to men who are not interested. I'm not used to being pursued. My BPDxbf pursues me and I hate it. I suspect he does love me but I can't bear his 'neediness'. Perhaps it's a control issue. It has got to the point where the minute I hear from him, I get anxiety symptoms which are alleviated by getting rid of him.


There's something going on here that belongs to me, not to him... .

In realizing that you love yourself you're seeking peace not pain.

The overall picture will become even clearer as you claim and live your own space.

(With BPD/traits involved, '(S)he loves me, (s)he loves me not' is often a mix of both.)

[HurtinNW]

My BPDxbf keeps telling me that I am angry with him. Yesterday he wished me peace (my immediate internal reaction was, how dare he think I need peace? But perhaps he's right.) Yesterday, I read a transcript of a text exchange that we had had. In that exchange, I clearly jumped on my BPDxbf because he wanted to know if we were still meeting on Saturday. I was quite hostile and it was out of the blue except for the implied message carried by the words of the text. I saw either insecurity on his part (I didn't want to see him) or rejection (perhaps he didn't want to see me). And I gave him a real pasting for it. Perhaps I should have read the whole exchange? But I couldn't face it. He says our relationship won't work until I admit that I'm angry with him. I don't feel angry when he's saying this. He says this whilst he raging at me. Given the tendencies for pwBPD to project, it's been easy to assume that it was merely projection on his part and not projection on mine. What if he does actually have a  point? What if I am in denial and he's angry because he's frustrated with me, in the way that I think he is angry and I'm frustrated with him?


LWx

Here's another way to think of it: of course you were angry. Anger is a normal human response to feeling threatened, invalidated, or disrespected. Why shouldn't you be angry given all that he has done?

Feelings are normal, it is how we act upon them that matters.

My ex used to accuse me of being angry too. I realized later he was right, I was angry. I was angry for really good reasons. I didn't always handle it right either. The communication of our relationship became about arguing. There was never a sense of safe communication, a place where I could be angry and have that feeling accepted. Instead my anger came out in other ways. I take ownership of that. I am hopeful I learned from it, mostly that a healthy relationship involves a sense of safety to discuss things.

It's the part that I put in bold above that I suggest is the faulty thinking here. You can admit you are angry but that doesn't mean the relationship will work. All it will do is put the responsibility on you. He's making you and your feelings (not him or his behaviors) the foundation of why the relationship isn't working. It takes two, and obviously he's not owning his issues.

Our relationships are always about us as much as them. There are reasons we stayed. What I see you doing is something I have done: feeling that any mistake on my part means I am responsible. I have had a sense that I have to be absolutely perfect or I have no reason to complain. If I made the tiniest mistake I take accountability for everything. Meanwhile, I was simmering with resentment and feeling hugely hurt all the time, because no matter how I tried things went south, over and over again. And always I felt if I had not gotten angry there, or argued here, and so forth... .picking apart my own actions to place blame on myself.

To be very honest, I think one reason I recycled so often is I felt I had made some mistake or another. Part of me thought I couldn't exit the relationship until I was blameless. I didn't step back enough to realize that all relationships have blame, that doesn't mean you stay in the relationship!

Be gentle with yourself, be curious, be wise. You don't have to act on your feelings. You can miss him, be furious, be hurt, be angry with yourself, all sorts of feelings. None require an action towards him.

[Lifewriter16]

Hi Everyone.

Thanks for your posts. I'm feeling really upset tonight because my BPDxbf's daughter is almost certainly going to be taken into care tomorrow.

ambivalentmom - interesting interpretation. I think that my BPDxbf has been trying to tell me something I need to learn from, but as you rightly say, the relationship in still not complete even when I learn that lesson.

eeks - I'm pretty sure that I am minimising my BPDxbf's abusive behaviour because I'm aware that I think that only him calling me names and his threats to leave count. Other people have seen abuse where I didn't see it. You ask why I am still in contact with him. Well, I am in the process of setting things up so I can go no contact but I'm not sure if that's safe. If I deny him easy access, he'd have to turn up at the house/school/my regular coffee shop instead. I might be putting myself at more risk than going low contact/grey rock, so I'm thinking to restrict contact and gradually phase it out. My main concern is that going no contact when he's losing his daughter could cause him to dysregulate MASSIVELY. Indeed, he could do that anyway as a result of the care order. I don't know if I am at risk. He seems calm so far, but it's not going to last.

myself - Yes, it's peace that I want. I never thought I'd get to the point where I was looking forward to being on my own, but I am finding that I don't relish the thought of starting another relationship. I don't seem to want to be in one anymore. Something has really changed for me to get to this point.

Hurtin - There's so much faulty thinking going around, mine and his. I can't see it. I'm so mired down in it. However, it'll get clearer, as myself says.

LW x

[Herodias]

I have toyed with that idea for quite some time too. I just heard a talk about it by Sam Vaknin, that made me feel better about it. He said that they do believe they love you, just not in the way we feel it. It is the attachment to you that forms their love. It is not a true sense of the feelings of love that we have for them, but it is in their own way.  They are just different from us. We don't understand them and they don't understand us... .Somehow this made me feel better. The reason they appear to feel love to the next person is that they are with them and forming that attachment that we no longer have. It is still not the true sense of the word LOVE that we understand.  They did love us in their own way at one time... .We just have to accept that they can easily have it with whoever they are with to fill that need at the time. They do not change, they do not get better on their own. They do not love the same way we do. Does that help?  It is sad... .

[Herodias]

" Yes, it's peace that I want. I never thought I'd get to the point where I was looking forward to being on my own, but I am finding that I don't relish the thought of starting another relationship. I don't seem to want to be in one anymore. Something has really changed for me to get to this point."

I can totally relate. I am changing my name back tomorrow after the divorce. I don't think I even want to be involved with someone again. That feeling gets stronger and stronger for some reason. I feel like relationships are more trouble than they are worth... .maybe this is just because of what we went through, I don't know. I have changed allot. I am not the person I was 10 years ago when I met mine for sure! I am happy alone. I really am. You just need to stay busy with family and friends... .work keeps me busy too.

[jhkbuzz]

I have toyed with that idea for quite some time too. I just heard a talk about it by Sam Vaknin, that made me feel better about it. He said that they do believe they love you, just not in the way we feel it. It is the attachment to you that forms their love. It is not a true sense of the feelings of love that we have for them, but it is in their own way.  They are just different from us. We don't understand them and they don't understand us... .Somehow this made me feel better. The reason they appear to feel love to the next person is that they are with them and forming that attachment that we no longer have. It is still not the true sense of the word LOVE that we understand.  They did love us in their own way at one time... .We just have to accept that they can easily have it with whoever they are with to fill that need at the time. They do not change, they do not get better on their own. They do not love the same way we do. Does that help?  It is sad... .

Yup... .like LW said, "I do believe he thought he loved me at one time and that what he said was genuinely felt, but what he loved most was the idea that I was going to make his life right, meet all his needs, heal him... .he didn't love me, only what he thought I was doing for him."