Being an example made me hate myself

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hello,

I've thought about this before, but I've never really looked into it all that much. I just recently made a decision for my life that my family isn't that happy about and have basically given me the look of "you're a fool" for. It got to me a little, those little tendrils that make you seize up and rethink everything you just thought or did a million more times than you already have.  

Anyway, being the 'good kid' I got good grades and didn't cause trouble and so I was used as an example to my sisters (one who was older) and my younger brother. My parents would gather us together and then talk about how great I was and actually say that they needed to be more like me and of course I was cringing and sweating and trying to get them to stop while trying to tell my siblings that I wasn't that great or didn't ask them to do this. Uh, yeah, it made them hate me.  Funny thing, my brother was the golden child for my mom and my younger sister was the golden child for my dad, yet I was held up as the standard.

It wasn't just at home as my teachers used to do the same to me in front of my classmates. 'You all need to take a page from purekalm and get your act together.' 'Look at purekalm, she's doing what I asked.' 'I think that purekalm is a good example for this class.' Etc, etc. I wasn't even the teacher's pet, there were girls who did that, I didn't.

Even at work one of my boss' picked me off the setup crew (no prior experience) to train someone new without warning and after the setup offered me a managing job. (Also no prior experience) One of the traveling manager singled me out to give me a hand shake for working hard and then proceeded to be serious about giving a firm handshake instead of the weak one I gave him in front of the majority of the crew. I had always given a firm handshake before then but stopped as people barely even touched my fingers most times and I realized that they didn't care or want to give me one.

Obviously, by the time I was older I started to have panic/anxiety attack whenever anyone brought any attention to me. I started to second guess everything I did because of my parents. Very quickly I realized that being called attention to got me hated and everything else so I tried so hard to be invisible the rest of my life, minimize any accomplishments or talents I had, or pretend they didn't exist in the first place. In short, because of being pointed out and used like that early on, I became my own worst critic and undeserving, incapable of doing anything right without someone else's approval even though I inwardly despised it knowing that I didn't need it but was afraid to be in the light so I stayed in the darkness praying no one would find me or bring attention to the fact that I existed along with them.

I realize the damage and I can see the initial point of impact. I've been working on it slowly, but I know I still I have a long way to go. Yet, there's the part of me that is so used to being in the shadow that the light is something 'too good for me', something that 'I don't deserve'.

Anyone else feel this way? If so, why do you think or do you know? How have you learned to heal and accept yourself without diminishing any part just because it may be different or a higher level (my best attempt at not saying better because no one is better, I just mean different in a way that your skill is higher than someone else's, not better, just higher, we're all different with different abilities) than someone else's?

[purekalm]

Hello,

I've thought about this before, but I've never really looked into it all that much. I just recently made a decision for my life that my family isn't that happy about and have basically given me the look of "you're a fool" for. It got to me a little, those little tendrils that make you seize up and rethink everything you just thought or did a million more times than you already have.  

Anyway, being the 'good kid' I got good grades and didn't cause trouble and so I was used as an example to my sisters (one who was older) and my younger brother. My parents would gather us together and then talk about how great I was and actually say that they needed to be more like me and of course I was cringing and sweating and trying to get them to stop while trying to tell my siblings that I wasn't that great or didn't ask them to do this. Uh, yeah, it made them hate me.  Funny thing, my brother was the golden child for my mom and my younger sister was the golden child for my dad, yet I was held up as the standard.

It wasn't just at home as my teachers used to do the same to me in front of my classmates. 'You all need to take a page from purekalm and get your act together.' 'Look at purekalm, she's doing what I asked.' 'I think that purekalm is a good example for this class.' Etc, etc. I wasn't even the teacher's pet, there were girls who did that, I didn't.

Even at work one of my boss' picked me off the setup crew (no prior experience) to train someone new without warning and after the setup offered me a managing job. (Also no prior experience) One of the traveling manager singled me out to give me a hand shake for working hard and then proceeded to be serious about giving a firm handshake instead of the weak one I gave him in front of the majority of the crew. I had always given a firm handshake before then but stopped as people barely even touched my fingers most times and I realized that they didn't care or want to give me one.

Obviously, by the time I was older I started to have panic/anxiety attack whenever anyone brought any attention to me. I started to second guess everything I did because of my parents. Very quickly I realized that being called attention to got me hated and everything else so I tried so hard to be invisible the rest of my life, minimize any accomplishments or talents I had, or pretend they didn't exist in the first place. In short, because of being pointed out and used like that early on, I became my own worst critic and undeserving, incapable of doing anything right without someone else's approval even though I inwardly despised it knowing that I didn't need it but was afraid to be in the light so I stayed in the darkness praying no one would find me or bring attention to the fact that I existed along with them.

I realize the damage and I can see the initial point of impact. I've been working on it slowly, but I know I still I have a long way to go. Yet, there's the part of me that is so used to being in the shadow that the light is something 'too good for me', something that 'I don't deserve'.

Anyone else feel this way? If so, why do you think or do you know? How have you learned to heal and accept yourself without diminishing any part just because it may be different or a higher level (my best attempt at not saying better because no one is better, I just mean different in a way that your skill is higher than someone else's, not better, just higher, we're all different with different abilities) than someone else's?

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Purekalm!   Nice to hear from you. 

I often feel the way you described, in fact, nearly every day if I'm honest!

Obviously, by the time I was older I started to have panic/anxiety attack whenever anyone brought any attention to me. I started to second guess everything I did because of my parents. Very quickly I realized that being called attention to got me hated and everything else so I tried so hard to be invisible the rest of my life, minimize any accomplishments or talents I had, or pretend they didn't exist in the first place.

I had wondered for a very long time why I wanted to fade into the woodwork, hide in the corner, not wear loud colored clothing or anything dramatic that would call attention to me. Neither would I do anything that would draw attention because of my actions. I didn't want anyone to notice. Just let me go about my business and do a good job please. When I started T, this part of me began to make sense. My uBPDm drew so much attention to herself, and if she focused on me, it wasn't a good thing, so if I could "hide" by not being noticed, there would be less potential for anger or jealousy or rage or anything.

I encourage you to ponder a little bit deeper if you can. Is it possible that there was a lot of shaming in your family, and if you didn't uphold the standard or if you failed, shame resulted? Not only that, but your siblings and fellow students or co-workers may have caused you to feel shame for just being who you were. Let's face it, us survivors of a pwBPD really are hardy souls, resilient and much stronger than we recognize, even if you don't quite see it yet. Others notice me because I work hard (and of course there were reasons why I worked hard when an angry uBPDm drove it into me to do so) and try to do what is right. Is that perhaps part of what you sense about yourself? When you just do what you are supposed to do and get noticed for it, that's when you want to hide, right? No spotlight for me please! I hear you and don't want the spot light on me either.

Do you have a T that you see? Mine has been immensely helpful in showing me how to walk through this particular struggle. Most members here at our site also struggle with the ability to receive positive words. We feel unworthy as well as wanting to hide. At the same time, I desperately crave for someone to notice me and love me for who I am. Do you feel this way too?

We are works in progress, and you are on the journey with me too, so you are not alone!

 
Wools

[purekalm]

Hello Woolspinner2000,

Nice to hear from you.

Thanks.

Thank you for replying. 

Others notice me because I work hard (and of course there were reasons why I worked hard when an angry uBPDm drove it into me to do so) and try to do what is right. Is that perhaps part of what you sense about yourself? When you just do what you are supposed to do and get noticed for it, that's when you want to hide, right? No spotlight for me please! I hear you and don't want the spot light on me either.

Working hard was actually one of the good things that my parents instilled in me at a young age. I actually like to work hard to be honest. There wasn't much fun, but always working or cleaning. I've always had a pretty heavy moral compass, so doing the right thing came more naturally to me anyway regardless of what they did. As a child, I was definitely strong willed and I kept most of it, but 'learned' how things were so to speak.

Being pointed out like that by my parents set off this whole other dynamic that for the majority of my life and still sometimes, my younger sister constantly competed with me in a competition I never signed up for. She always measured herself to me in different ways and that hurt her and me. My older sister measured herself to me in 'goodness' and always felt like she came up short and that is a contention that both my sister's share. It's like, no matter how horrible of decisions I've made, it's nothing compared to what they've done and I'm still 'better'. It's frustrating, because me and my younger sister used to be close until they started that. Me and my brother get along because he's more like me in character and things although we're completely different. We can agree to disagree and be ourselves around each other for the most part.

My husband added to it by acting like everything I did was stupid or when it was better he would compete with me. I told him all the time that just because I was strong didn't mean he could treat me like a dude, I was his wife for goodness sakes! He's realized all that now, but that's another story. Basically, I got to the point that I didn't do anything I liked or wanted because he had something to say or a look or a flip out and I was really depressed.

Yes, I can even remember in sixth grade breaking into a cold sweat and feeling like I was about to faint when my teacher called my name, and I knew the answer!  Even my coworkers would get mad at me and make comments like 'don't work so hard, you're making me look bad'. Inwardly I cringed because of confrontation, but outwardly I just smiled and thought that they are making themselves look bad because they're slacking off. I didn't want attention for it, and I got it all the time from my managers. I hated being pointed out just for being me!

Do you have a T that you see? Mine has been immensely helpful in showing me how to walk through this particular struggle. Most members here at our site also struggle with the ability to receive positive words. We feel unworthy as well as wanting to hide. At the same time, I desperately crave for someone to notice me and love me for who I am. Do you feel this way too?

I don't actually. I did have a therapist years ago that I saw for almost two years and she did help, but I couldn't trust her, so... She ended up leaving for a better job in her field and the person she recommended me to was NOT a good fit, so I just stopped going.

For me, it's like there are two of me, the real me and the one I had to create for everyone else. I protect the real me by being the fake one, but I didn't even realize the dynamic for a long time. I've been hiding behind the one that tells me I'm not worthy so long that I started to believe it with the real me. When that happened I feel like I've spent all those years since then trying to pull the two apart and just be me again.

It's like, I know that I have value, what my talents are, what I can do, who I am, and then immediately the fake me rears it's head and shoots down the truth so eloquently that the real me shrinks back and hides again under all the trash where I belong. It's difficult to explain, but maybe you understand. 

Yes, I am the same. I don't want the whole world to acknowledge me, or even a lot or a few, just one is enough. Just one person that sees me and accepts me for the way I am, faults and all, WITHOUT trying to change me, being jealous of something I can do they can't, etc. And then there's that voice again that says, putting all that on one person isn't fair, you should have multiple people who see that way and you can rely on. So, even if I have one person who is like that, I still won't rely on them.

Then, there's the other voice that says, duh, people can't do that, only God can. Stop trying to fill that void with stuff or people only God can fill. I feel much better for a while, because, like you, I still want one person who sees me and is ok with what they see.

It's bittersweet knowing I'm not the only one, I hate knowing others are suffering. Thanks again for replying. 

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi again Purekalm,

Thank you for responding to my questions. There is a lot of thought going on inside of you concerning this, and I am glad that you are processing it and trying to understand. That's a sure sign of growth and personal reflection. 

Working hard was actually one of the good things that my parents instilled in me at a young age. I actually like to work hard to be honest.

Much like you, I also take pride in having learned the value of working hard. Tis a good thing, and I find reward in doing so and in doing my job well.

Basically, I got to the point that I didn't do anything I liked or wanted because he had something to say or a look or a flip out and I was really depressed.

I too reached a very similar point with my DH. It took me a long time to figure out why I shut down when DH responded to my communication or enthusiasm with an opposite viewpoint, like he was in competition with me too and had to be the winner. Once I finally realized it, I began to become more and more quiet, knowing whatever I said would be run over, that my opinion didn't matter. That was before I began T, so by the time I started in T, I was getting pretty lonely. It's a very strange experience to be lonely in a marriage.

It's like, I know that I have value, what my talents are, what I can do, who I am, and then immediately the fake me rears it's head and shoots down the truth so eloquently that the real me shrinks back and hides again under all the trash where I belong. It's difficult to explain, but maybe you understand.

I think I do understand, very much so. I'm struggling to find the right words to express to you what I experience, and while I know what I go through, it IS hard to put it into words. I can say that it is a paradox: on one hand we feel that we have incredible strengths and abilities, and then on the other hand we wonder who we are kidding. Do you think that your inner children may be saying something to you which contradicts the point of view of the older you? For example, when I do something well, there is a part of me that is quite pleased. Then there is another part of me that starts to be loud and says it's not as good as I think it is, and then I start to think maybe it's stupid, and doubt comes in. I go back and forth, like a teeter totter. Which one will be the stronger voice?

Pete Walker calls this voice our inner critic in his book Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving. There are times that I am able to quiet the inner critic fairly soon, and other times it is a really hard battle. I don't know if this is helpful or not to you, but I do grasp the struggle, and it is hard. I'm really sorry that you are going through it too. It penetrates the very core of our being, of our identity.

There is something that has happened to me as I've walked on this healing journey. As I have gradually become more comfortable with myself (and that includes my little 5 year old self, the 10 year old, and the teenage me), somehow this transformation has occurred where I find myself less and less concerned or focused on what others think of me. I never knew how much I was seeking their approval, their affirmation that I was okay, but they never gave it to me. I've found the comfort coming from within myself, and also from God. It is easy to say that we can only get it from God, and while I fully believe that is true, it is one thing to say it and another to step into it and know it to be true. I had head knowledge and verbal knowledge for so long, but it really did take the changing of how I saw myself, learning to accept those inner kids, and turning to God. It has not been an overnight thing but has taken me a few years of T and tons of processing.

What do you think? Does any of this make sense? You are on the right track!

 
Wools

[HappyChappy]

Hi

What an awkward situation you were placed in, time and time again. That must have been difficult.   There was something similar in our house hold. As I’m sure you know a BPD will set their kids against each other, so making you all favourites but in different ways, is a great way of stoking up jealously.

My BPD would compare my sister to an acquaintance, who coincidently always did better than my sister. If sis got a really good grade A, her comparative got an A++. She did the same with her grandson. We all know young boys fidget, so our BPD told a story about a boy the same age she observed in a restaurant once, who never fidgeted and was wonderfully behaved. By repeating this story over and over, she established this as the standard and hence she could criticise our son for fidgeting. Even though we know 6 year old boys fidgit,  establishing a standard is very effective. So do you think this was your BPD’s mechanism for setting you against each other ?

It ties in with you comment about having a  real me, and a fake me. The fake me was developed to fit in with your BPD triangulation. She had given you all rolls, and if you played up to the roll things were easier than if you kicked against it were you penalised ? A BPD doesn’t like us puncturing their fantasy thinking. Does that make any sense ?

As for this  carrying through to school and work. I know we had such a strict up bring, that other saw us as very well behaved (we only spoke when spoken to). But as the scapegoat I was penalised for success, so even to this day my FOO do not know about most of my successes. And at school, even though I was a hard working academic, I would be cheeky to teachers and get into trouble, scapegoat style. I didn’t hang out with the academics, I was with alternative crowd. My friends thought it was hilarious that I would rebel, but in a very polite manner. Do you think you were acting out the roll your BPD gave you ?

Your post is very interesting so thanks for sharing. So what do you intend to do differently, if anything, now you have identified these patters of behaviour ? 

[purekalm]

Hello Wools,

Thank you for responding to my questions.

No problem.  I think answering the questions helps me to figure out new things a bit more.

Do you think that your inner children may be saying something to you which contradicts the point of view of the older you? For example, when I do something well, there is a part of me that is quite pleased. Then there is another part of me that starts to be loud and says it's not as good as I think it is, and then I start to think maybe it's stupid, and doubt comes in. I go back and forth, like a teeter totter. Which one will be the stronger voice?

Yes. Like my writing for example. I will write something and love it and then when I get so far or reread it I'll say it's crap and nowhere near good enough and throw it away or put it away. Anybody who's read anything I've written, (even when I used to write poems) would tell me that it was great and they can't wait until I finish the story. I couldn't believe them. There was a part of me that was excited, they really do like it? Maybe it's not so bad. Then I would look at it again and I would get depressed and think that they were just being nice to me not to hurt my feelings and never finish it.

I've found the comfort coming from within myself, and also from God. It is easy to say that we can only get it from God, and while I fully believe that is true, it is one thing to say it and another to step into it and know it to be true. I had head knowledge and verbal knowledge for so long, but it really did take the changing of how I saw myself, learning to accept those inner kids, and turning to God. It has not been an overnight thing but has taken me a few years of T and tons of processing.

What do you think? Does any of this make sense? You are on the right track!

Exactly, head knowledge is just not the same and it took me forever to realize that was what was wrong with my processing that about God. Yes, I do believe that it makes sense and like I said, I DO know it and feel it, but the inner critic is so strong that I have a REALLY hard time. It's literally been this way my whole life. My mom and even my siblings all know how hard I am on myself and have always called myself my own worst critic, yet, I feel they're being too lenient with me and I'm not being hard enough. I can try harder, I can do better, I tell myself. And yet, I thwart myself in the process! 

Hello HappyChappy,

Yes, my dad would even compare us to prodigy children and ask us why we couldn't be more like them and make him some money. Any child in his side of the family that was doing good we were compared to. No matter what, we weren't good enough and we knew it.

So do you think this was your BPD’s mechanism for setting you against each other ?

To be honest, I don't think so. They both needed something and took it as they needed. My mom was really needy because dad controlled and terrified/threatened her so she had no one. My older sister was her emotional support for a bit and then she chose me and that was it, BUT my brother was her golden child who could do no wrong and got away with murder, whereas my younger sister was the target of her rage for spending time with my dad. My younger sister was my dad's trainee, yet I was his confident that he talked to me about things he shouldn't have and when I got older and looked more like my mom he started saying weird things and looking at me funny and I didn't want to be around him that much. He said all the time he wished mom could be more like me and he would look at me with what I know now to be longing and it creeped me out. The only standard that rang true for all of us was 'been seen and not heard'. Even when we were older we were expected to go in and say hi and then go back outside and leave the adults to their conversations.

The fake me was developed to fit in with your BPD triangulation. She had given you all rolls, and if you played up to the roll things were easier than if you kicked against it were you penalised ? A BPD doesn’t like us puncturing their fantasy thinking. Does that make any sense ?

I always felt responsible for everyone and their feelings. A go between for my parents with each other, my parents and siblings, sibling to sibling, sibling to parent, yet had no authority and was hated for my efforts. Hmm... I'm trying to think but pretty much it was don't tell anyone outside the family what's going on because they wouldn't understand. No one really tried to get out of their roles, so it's hard. Not for a long time anyway.

Once we became homeless we lost whatever respect we had left and almost two years before that I had finally given up on trying to do what I could and made myself numb. The family fell apart and I blamed myself. That's the time things really changed up and there were a ton of arguments, fights. I pretty much just bottled myself up and that fake persona I created to deal with it all became me. I always blamed myself, even unknowingly for everyone's pain because I wasn't strong enough to keep it together. One statement my old pastor made shook me out of this, though it would be years later. She said "Purekalm, you're not Jesus. You're standing in the way of them being able to be helped by him so what does he have left to do?" I was shocked, shamed, angry, but there was a truth to it. But, if my purpose wasn't to help, then what was it? I can remember who I was before, where did she go? How do I get her back? Is she real or am I the real one?

Do you think you were acting out the roll your BPD gave you ?

Yes. I was afraid of success. Partly because I knew it would boost my dad's ego and he could puff up around his family and partly because I was so afraid of failure. I didn't want to fail, but wouldn't ask for help. If I couldn't do it myself it wasn't truly a success. I would minimize anything because my sisters would be upset at any good news I had. My sisters made fun of my husband to my face and my younger sister ragged on me for months for the name I carefully researched and chose for my son. She was insanely jealous and I was actually fearful that I might have a daughter because she thought my mom would favor me 'even more' and I didn't want to deal with her wrath. She has three boys and has calmed down, but her competition with me still exists.

Your post is very interesting so thanks for sharing. So what do you intend to do differently, if anything, now you have identified these patters of behaviour ?   

No problem. I was thinking about how detrimental it's been to me and stops me from doing things I want and decided to see if there was anyone else who felt this way and how they've overcome.

I intend to fight back, but that's a bit vague. Actual steps are difficult. I can 'think about what I'm thinking about' as someone once told me. When I start to get those negative thoughts telling me I'm not good enough, maybe I can simply ask why? I know there's enough negative thoughts to say why though, so maybe simply saying it isn't true? I don't know, because I feel like it is true so much it'd be a pretty weak argument for myself.  This sounds a bit weird, but that's what I'm thinking. Hmm... .I will have to think about this, because I really don't know.

[Woolspinner2000]

This is really a great discussion!  Lots for us all to consider and take a look at.

It definitely sounds like we are on the same wave length (or teeter totter  ). I am on that darn thing far too often! Quite recently I am beginning to challenge my inner critic more (as in the past 2 months), and I have been considering which voice I will listen to. Will I listen to the voice that I think is the real me? Or will I listen to the inner critic because maybe that is more the real me? Or will I listen to the voice of the Lord within me, telling me who I am and how he sees me? All 3 possibilities are on the merry go round in my head, and it depends on which one I decide to ride. It is hard to change, and I default towards that which has been comfortable for so long. I think you sound like you also are stepping back and seeing that it isn't helping us do well to always follow the same routine as we have in the past. That is part of what this site is for, coping and healing, because we begin to realize that what we did in the past doesn't work so well in the present. It has taken me a lot of time to begin to figure out who I am, and initially it was because I was who my parents wanted me to be, like you have said in response to HC.

I mentioned Pete Walker in my previous post. I am including a link to his article about the inner critic and would be interested to hear your thoughts. You mentioned that you don't know what to do differently, and there are some ideas in this article that you may find helpful.

www.pete-walker.com/shrinkingInnerCritic.htm

HappyChappy has also posed some great thoughts, and you have made some great observations as a result. Good food for thought! You are doing well, Purekalm! Keep going and stretching yourself! 

 
Wools

[purekalm]

Hey Wools, 

Will I listen to the voice that I think is the real me? Or will I listen to the inner critic because maybe that is more the real me? Or will I listen to the voice of the Lord within me, telling me who I am and how he sees me? All 3 possibilities are on the merry go round in my head, and it depends on which one I decide to ride.

This is the difficulty isn't it? Knowing and understanding the reasoning behind all three but not knowing which voice should be the one to be heard?

I mentioned Pete Walker in my previous post. I am including a link to his article about the inner critic and would be interested to hear your thoughts. You mentioned that you don't know what to do differently, and there are some ideas in this article that you may find helpful.

Kwamina has mentioned him before and given me links as well. I'm pretty sure that this exact link is one I've read but I reread it since it's been a while.

He mentions that one way he tries to help people is by having them make a list of their good traits. Now, for someone like me who doesn't see this it's hard to do even that. On the days that I can without feeling guilty, or even still feeling guilty but able to recognize them for what they are isn't going to help at all when the negative thoughts or depression comes in.

I've done this before, a few times. What happened was I got out the list and you know what I saw? Someone who thinks they're something they're not acting like they have worth and  there was quite a few reasons why each item written was actually incorrect, just off the top of my head without even taking time to consider a contradiction. They all ended up tore up in the trash, it only serves to worsen my depression, not help me at all.

I've thought about what I'm thinking, I've asked questions, fought back with positive thoughts but no matter what the negative wins out because it has so many reasons why all of it is lies. It's not comfortable in the least and I don't want to be in that place, but it's where I feel I belong.

I was having a conversation with my brother the other day and he made a statement that has stuck with me. He said "That's because in your core of who are you don't feel like you truly have value or are worth anything and that's why you can't accept that you have talent no matter how many times someone tells you." It hit me hard and I started to tear up a little, because I knew it was true.

I have some memories of my childhood from as early as four or five years old. That was the first time I tried to run away. I don't remember the exact reason why, but I packed my little bag and I left, and my parents didn't stop me. I went downstairs, (we were in an apartment) and I stood there for a while and people kept passing me by. I walked out to the front steps and played with the stray cat we had named Sunshine and then knowing I didn't know where I should even go I decided to go back. Only, they wouldn't let me in. They said it served me right for being ungrateful and were laughing. After a while I started pounding on the door and was losing it and I heard my younger sister start crying and asking them to let me in and finally they opened the door and I ran straight to the room I shared with my sisters instead of going to them. I think that was the first time I felt hatred towards them, betrayed. My younger sister comforted me later on.

That was another thing I realized is that my younger sister, taking care of her because she was shy, quiet and had easily hurt feelings was how I gauged my worth until she broke away from me at about twelve years old. I remember withdrawing into myself and instead of being the confident, optimistic and strong person I had been, I felt weak, worthless and useless. After thinking about this, it made me wonder, if I was that way since I've been four or fiver years old, possibly even sooner, then who am I or who was I really? Am I the real me now because back then I may have only been strong and optimistic because I was caring for my sister who became extremely volatile and hating me for a bit, then competing with me which was partly my parents and also it seems partly my fault as well?

What's your take?

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Purekalm,

Reaching for the truth, it's what you are doing and I am glad. It is a struggle, but don't mind the struggle if you can because New life is born out of these times. It is darn hard, this process as seen from my perspective, but it is worth it so please keep asking and searching. 

I was having a conversation with my brother the other day and he made a statement that has stuck with me. He said "That's because in your core of who are you don't feel like you truly have value or are worth anything and that's why you can't accept that you have talent no matter how many times someone tells you." It hit me hard and I started to tear up a little, because I knew it was true.

Your brother has made an astute observation, one to which I can relate as well. I can see why it hit you hard. Understanding this truth isn't a bad thing though. You feel sad naturally, but seeing this, way down deep, is a great grasp of truth, and one upon which further truth can be built. Kudos to you! 

What would you think about doing the following: rather than write down what you see about yourself that is good, can you write down what others say or complement you on? I have a little pretty cardboard box that I bought (there are pretty birds on it). It's something you'd find at Michael's or a store like that. It is my positive box. I have little slips of paper in it that I've been collecting since shortly after I began therapy per my T instructions. It is NOT based on what I think at all. For example he has me write down that "my students really like me" which is based on their thank you notes to me. Or "my son said he liked spending time with me." They are simple. They are factual, and once again, they do not have to do with my feelings or viewpoint, only those kind words or notes or thank yous given by others to me.  From time to time I pull out things to read them. Usually I am in tears, but they need to go back in the box, not in the trash. It is part of the rewiring of the neurons in ones brain. Just because we don't feel something doesn't mean it isn't true. You'll just have to trust me on this one.

Tis a challenge to do. Find something lovely to look at and see if you can begin to stash away some notes in it. I will give you the first one. Please write down the following from me and date it.

You are loved and special, with kindness being seen in your writing to others.

 
 
Wools

[purekalm]

Hi Wools, 

Reaching for the truth, it's what you are doing and I am glad. It is a struggle, but don't mind the struggle if you can because New life is born out of these times. It is darn hard, this process as seen from my perspective, but it is worth it so please keep asking and searching. 

Kind of my motto, 'the truth is the truth whether you accept it or not it isn't going to change'.  Yeah, I agree it's a struggle and VERY hard. I've been kinda down and irritable since thinking about this and realizing these things. I won't quit. I haven't yet and being stubborn is one thing I'm good at.  

Your brother has made an astute observation, one to which I can relate as well. I can see why it hit you hard. Understanding this truth isn't a bad thing though. You feel sad naturally, but seeing this, way down deep, is a great grasp of truth, and one upon which further truth can be built.

He's quite observant like me.    I think I had an inkling that this might be the truth but never really thought too hard on it, most likely subconsciously avoiding it. Yeah, it was kind of like any walls or layers I had didn't even exist and hit me right in the center and resonated throughout my body. It felt weird to hear someone else say what I believed without even knowing (on the surface) it myself.

What would you think about doing the following: rather than write down what you see about yourself that is good, can you write down what others say or complement you on? Tis a challenge to do.

Ah, tis a challenge indeed! 

My knee jerk reaction was instantly to say but, that isn't true/won't work. Then I realized that if I said that I'm invalidating what you believe and it threw me off kilter. I've always given allowances, chances, forgiveness to everyone but myself. Everyone deserves the world but me. It was easy for me to invalidate the praise of my family, they're my family and are going to be nice to me just because. Now, this isn't always the case, but even dysfunctional families can be nice on occasion.

I'm in a weird position right now because I don't believe you, but can't say that what you're saying is not true because you believe it is. It's like pulling a rubber band and letting it go but when it slows down and stops you're not sure what just happened or exactly where you're at.

Funny you should say 'something lovely to look at' to put the notes in. I think it's because I don't think of stuff for myself beyond basic needs the majority of the time. When I thought about it though, I knew the box to use. I've had this little box shaped a bit like a book that has a beautifully drawn tiger cleaning the head of it's cub for quite a few years now and have held onto it because I like the way it looks but could never find a use for it. It even came with some paper inside printed with the image on the front and I still have quite a lot in there.

As I wrote down what you wrote for me I smiled to myself. What an ingenious way to trick my mind? It's so easy to discount something I write myself, but how easy would it be to do that when it's something someone else said? I've already thought about it and I know that even I would have a hard time disagreeing even when I got so depressed I wanted to die or kill myself. The reason being is because it uses my hardwired mindset against me.

I can't think of anything positive when I get extremely down. (Which thankfully hasn't happened in a long time since I keep fighting.) If I took a box of notes where people said good things about me my natural instinct is to berate and belittle myself, yet, if it hurts someone else and my brain is wired to put others above me (even that depressed) it turns the negativity on it's ear and would actually HELP me come out of my depression because I couldn't refute the logic my brain was telling me. I wouldn't be looking at what they said and believing it, but I would think about them. It may not help me to go forward, but I won't be going backwards either!  Eventually, I could see that it would be slowly rewiring my brain and in the long run I might actually start to believe what's written as my own truth instead of theirs alone. 

I don't know if that makes any sense to you, but it does to me.    

Thank you for continuing to challenge me Wools, it means a lot to me.   

[Woolspinner2000]

Hey Purekalm,

Great job!   

I'm glad you had something lovely already, and now you are off to the races! It sort of IS trickery if you ask me, and I let my T know that I think it is. But who cares if we trick the brain and actually begin to teach it new things? Isn't that how we started off anyway, with our brains being tricked to think and believe what ISN'T true and healthy? I know that this is another brain challenge, but it's true and factual that we learned things that are not right. We were trained to believe 'unhealthy' as being 'healthy' and 'normal.' Let's keep challenging this.

Keep in touch and from time to time come back to this thread and let me know how you are doing. 

And yes, it makes complete sense to me!

 
Wools

[Rkmom]

Hello Purekalm,
I read your posts. I feel so much for you. I cannot fanthom the inner turmoil you are going through. I really just hope somehow soon in the hopefully near future you can see yourself as the wonderful, accomplished person you are. I pray that you keep finding the strength to overcome what you are going through.

[purekalm]

Hey Wools,

But who cares if we trick the brain and actually begin to teach it new things? Isn't that how we started off anyway, with our brains being tricked to think and believe what ISN'T true and healthy? I know that this is another brain challenge, but it's true and factual that we learned things that are not right. We were trained to believe 'unhealthy' as being 'healthy' and 'normal.' Let's keep challenging this.

I agree. I just wish it was easier. I know it took years to learn this, the absolute majority of my life in fact. I don't know if I can make it if it has to take that much longer to rewire it though.

 Like I mentioned before, that's what is so hard for me. I'm aware most of the time of both parts separately. The optimistic, smiling fighter and the depressed loser. If I try I can see the future I want and I know what steps I need to get there and I feel like there's a bit of hope and just maybe I can do this. Almost as soon as that happens and I get a little hope, this overwhelming feeling, (almost physical it's so strong) literally holds me down to keep me from moving forward. I'm trying, pushing, fighting, crying and railing against it and it won't move until I finally give up and the pressure lessens until I try to hope or move forward again.

It's a feeling completely separate from what others have done to me or what I've went through. I've worked on and will continue to work on all that. It's difficult to explain without sounding crazy. All that damage seems like a speck compared to that 'physical' cloud that shoves me down until I stop fighting for a while. I don't know. It's so frustrating! 

I wish I could say that I'm doing better, I definitely want to. So far, your comment is the only one I've managed to put into the box. There are statements Kwamina has made I know I could add as well as another member that complemented me on something a while back. I've been having a tough week, but I will do it because I know it will help, even if in the long run. Thank you again for caring and asking the tough questions Wools. 

Rkmom,

I read your posts. I feel so much for you. I cannot fanthom the inner turmoil you are going through. I really just hope somehow soon in the hopefully near future you can see yourself as the wonderful, accomplished person you are. I pray that you keep finding the strength to overcome what you are going through.

I don't feel I deserve your or anyone's sincere compassion, though I do appreciate your sentiment. 

At this point in my life I don't think I've accomplished anything more than staying alive, hardly worthy of anything. I hope to someday accomplish my goals and be free.

Thank you, without God and the kind people on this forum, I would still be so much further back in my journey.

[Kwamina]

Did I hear someone say my name? Might as well join the discussion then!

The optimistic, smiling fighter and the depressed loser.

Why do you feel that part of you is a loser? Do you feel that being depressed makes you a loser?

Almost as soon as that happens and I get a little hope, this overwhelming feeling, (almost physical it's so strong) literally holds me down to keep me from moving forward. I'm trying, pushing, fighting, crying and railing against it and it won't move until I finally give up and the pressure lessens until I try to hope or move forward again.

... .that 'physical' cloud that shoves me down until I stop fighting for a while. I don't know. It's so frustrating!  

Perhaps it can help to explore other words that might describe this overwhelming feeling you sometimes experience. Do you perhaps feel an element of fear in that experience? Can you perhaps identify the exact thoughts that go through you mind right before and during these experiences? What are the exact thoughts that go through your mind when you become aware of the presence of that 'physical' cloud?

I don't feel I deserve your or anyone's sincere compassion, though I do appreciate your sentiment.  

Perhaps it is best to leave the word 'deserve' out of the equation, for:
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."

If compassion would only be given if it was deserved, would it really be compassion? Is conditional love, love at all?

At this point in my life I don't think I've accomplished anything more than staying alive, hardly worthy of anything.

Surviving a childhood with two disordered parents could be considered a very significant accomplishment I think. Then surviving a marriage to a disordered husband, that also isn't easy. Also fighting with that 'physical' cloud pushing you down, another significant challenge. No matter the part you might feel you yourself might have played in all of this, you have faced some serious obstacles. You staying alive not only means you still have a chance, it also means your son still has a chance. Your life is precious and you staying alive and sharing your story is a gift to our board

There are statements Kwamina has made I know I could add as well as another member that complemented me on something a while back.

To help you fill your box, here are some of those parrot statements:

When posting here it is normal to experience a wide range of sometimes very powerful emotions. Though it might sometimes feel like we are only helping ourselves by posting, by getting our story out here we are actually also helping many other people. We have non-members reading the posts here and also members who don't post a lot themselves but benefit greatly from reading other  people's posts. By posting your experiences and insights you have helped many other people purekalm, both members and non-members. Reading your story makes others feel less alone and can also give them the strength to keep fighting and keep going on. You have made a unique contribution to this site through your authenticity, just by being you, you have shown other people that it is ok to be yourself. I know that your faith is very important to you and has carried you through some very hard times. The way you describe what you've been through and your faith also inspires other members

The Board Parrot

[purekalm]

 Hmm, I recall writing your name. Not sure how you would've heard it though... .

Why do you feel that part of you is a loser? Do you feel that being depressed makes you a loser?

I feel that way because I can't get past the chains that hold me, or only so far and it's like I'm in constant defeat mode. Never getting anywhere, replaying the same scene and wondering when it will end. I'm fully aware I'm not helpless and I don't try in the least to stay there.

Do you perhaps feel an element of fear in that experience? Can you perhaps identify the exact thoughts that go through you mind right before and during these experiences? What are the exact thoughts that go through your mind when you become aware of the presence of that 'physical' cloud?

Hmm... .if there is fear it's extremely deep seated because I usually don't feel it during those times. More apathetic than anything. Interesting questions. Let me see. It happened again about a week ago and hasn't completely left at the moment. For me, my mind is almost constantly running from one thought or idea to another, it's hard to sleep.

That's the hard part because it's usually when I'm starting to do a little better, small step at a time. I'm constantly plagued by my inadequacies and failures, that's everyday. Always fighting that battle. It's literally when I start to have hope that my life might not always be this way and I can do better for our son. I'm actually happy, feeling a bit confident even, (which is rare) and that's when 'it' attacks, every time. It used to come and stay a long time because I hated myself and it came often and stayed for way too long. It isn't that way anymore now though.

It comes on suddenly. The best example I can give is like this: You're walking down a street, on the way to eat or something and feeling great, you had a great day. All of a sudden you get this 'weird' feeling and your hackles raise. When you pass whatever caused it you shake it off and continue on. I used to be able to feel like, a physical presence on my head, almost as if someone had their hand on it, palm down and pressing hard, pushing me down.

Since it isn't AS strong, but plenty strong enough it's more like a black cloud that just moved in out of nowhere and follows me everywhere, sapping me of energy, sometimes making it hard to breathe, painting a gloomy view of everything.  I fight it as hard as I can with everything I know how to. That's usually when my thoughts start down the dark path that amplifies my negative thoughts toward myself. The entire time I'm trying to tell truth and fight against it because I don't want to go there.

Either I actually fight through the worst of it (which hasn't been very many times) and it kind of recedes for a time. Or, every failure because of using every bit of my energy to not give in keeps stacking up and accusing me and I fall into a deep depression for a while, (now it's only a day or two to around two weeks) and somehow God helps me climb out again. It's almost as if it recedes into me, like it's my own self hatred that I haven't dealt with or something. I don't know. I'm tired of doing this over and over even if the cycle is so much shorter than it has been before.

If compassion would only be given if it was deserved, would it really be compassion? Is conditional love, love at all?

True. No it isn't. It's because it isn't deserved that makes it so unique and amazing. I guess it just goes back to  believing that everyone but me has worth in my eyes. I realized it recently but I think I've always known. I can love and forgive and have compassion for everyone but me, and I'm not entirely sure why. I wish I knew the root of that one.

Surviving a childhood with two disordered parents could be considered a very significant accomplishment I think. Then surviving a marriage to a disordered husband, that also isn't easy. Also fighting with that 'physical' cloud pushing you down, another significant challenge. No matter the part you might feel you yourself might have played in all of this, you have faced some serious obstacles. You staying alive not only means you still have a chance, it also means your son still has a chance. Your life is precious and you staying alive and sharing your story is a gift to our board 

What you wrote there made me cry. How can I be the only one who can't see I have worth for existing?

I've never been able to see it that way. My thoughts to that would be that I'm weak for not being 'further' along and having done more than just survive. There are so many people who have been through worse and are functioning better than me. I look at it and I'm like, if this was someone else I'd say the same thing but when I try to say it to myself it doesn't even pretend to stick.

Someone once told me that I'm putting myself to a higher standard than everyone and I think I'm better and have to live and do better so I don't measure myself the same way as I do others. It served to worsen my depression at the time because I was like 'great, now I'm even worse because I think I'm better than everyone'. The thought never stayed long because I knew that wasn't how I felt but couldn't explain it. I would almost never put my wants or needs before anyone else's, even if I didn't get them. It wasn't a heroic thing for me, it just felt like the right thing to do. Ever since I was little I carried the weight of the world on my shoulders, wanting to fix everything that was wrong because of all the suffering. I never wanted power, to be seen or get any kind of reward. I pictured people being able to smile and not suffer. I learned early on that wasn't possible, but I'm not entirely sure if I stopped carrying everyone's pain. I don't know, no matter what I do the truth escapes me as to why I can't find any worth in myself.

Thank you for that. I will add it to the box. I know I've got to be annoying at times. It's why my old pastor abandoned me. I could never seem to get things right and she became increasingly frustrated with me. Even going so far as to call me ungrateful behind my back. Ah well, tis life. 

[Woolspinner2000]

Glad to hear from you again, Purekalm! 

Nice to see you've at least doubled what is in your box by now when you add some things from Kwamina. Did you add the kind words from Rkmom?

 

I really just hope somehow soon in the hopefully near future you can see yourself as the wonderful, accomplished person you are.

I know I've got to be annoying at times. It's why my old pastor abandoned me. I could never seem to get things right and she became increasingly frustrated with me. Even going so far as to call me ungrateful behind my back

I take issue with a person that abandons someone for not getting things right. Often folks like that don't have an inkling of what us adult children surviving a pwBPD have gone through. I'm so very glad you are among others here who understand. It doesn't matter a bit to me if you feel like you get it right or not because truly it isn't about that. It is all about you being who you are, and I like you as who you are, even though we've only met here at this site. You belong to our family, just the way you are. The rest of us are the way we are too and I know you accept us as well.

I woke up during the early morning hours very terrified from a nightmare (I still get them even though they are less often), and while I lay there trying to relax enough to go back to sleep, the Lord brought you to my mind. I prayed for you because you were/are in need.

I know you said you tried T before. Have you ever thought about trying it again, if you could find someone trained in understanding BPD who was also a good match for you? I know there are sites where a person can type in their zip code and locate a trained counselor in the US. I mention this because T is what has helped me walk through so many of the feelings you describe. I hear your soul crying out for relief and release from the weight heavy upon you. I wish I could make it better for you in some way.

I'm here to listen as often as you wish to share. Hugs. 
 
Wools

[Kwamina]

I know I've got to be annoying at times.

Annoying? No, not really actually. Not that I want to invalidate your experience of course! Like Wools, I like you too and am glad to have you in our community.

It's why my old pastor abandoned me. I could never seem to get things right and she became increasingly frustrated with me. Even going so far as to call me ungrateful behind my back.

Well what can I say... .as Board Parrot I'm always very diplomatic of course so I won't label your old pastor as good or bad. I will label her as human though and humans make mistakes and she made a mistake by treating you this way. She might not be a bad person, but she did treat you badly, her behavior was wrong.

For me, my mind is almost constantly running from one thought or idea to another, it's hard to sleep.

Your mind doing this could also be a coping mechanism you've developed. Pete Walker for instance says: " Fear launches us into 'heady' worrying, or numbing and spacing out."

You might not be consciously aware of the fear, but there are signs there that could point to an underlying fear.

That's the hard part because it's usually when I'm starting to do a little better, small step at a time. I'm constantly plagued by my inadequacies and failures, that's everyday. Always fighting that battle. It's literally when I start to have hope that my life might not always be this way and I can do better for our son. I'm actually happy, feeling a bit confident even, (which is rare) and that's when 'it' attacks, every time.
... .
I fight it as hard as I can with everything I know how to. That's usually when my thoughts start down the dark path that amplifies my negative thoughts toward myself.

This reminds me of other things Pete Walker has said:
"Emotional flashbacks are especially painful because the inner critic typically overlays them with toxic shame, inhibiting the individual from seeking comfort and support, isolating him in an overwhelming and humiliating sense of defectiveness.

Because most emotional flashbacks do not have a visual or memory component to them, the triggered individual rarely realizes that she is re-experiencing a traumatic time from childhood."

Do you believe this might explain what is going on with you when you experience that oppressive cloud?

All of a sudden you get this 'weird' feeling and your hackles raise. When you pass whatever caused it you shake it off and continue on.

Could it be that the feeling of hope is in fact a trigger for you? If so, this cloud could possibly be related to your childhood with your parents. Good things probably never lasted very long back then or turned out not to be that good at all. That could explain why the feeling of hope would now automatically trigger that oppressive cloud. You might not even have to be consciously thinking about it, this internal reaction (though feeling like an external manifestation) might be an automatic response you've developed. Feeling positive and hopeful scares me too and I can notice myself getting anxious or putting my guard back up exactly at those moments that I just for a second seemed to have totally forgotten or let go of all the pain I've been through. In his work about emotional flashbacks, Pete Walker says that in childhood, fear and abandonment felt endless - a safer future was unimaginable. So basically hope and feeling hopeful was unimaginable too and considering that, it would make sense to me that feeling hopeful could be a massive trigger for you. That's my parrot analysis for you!

It's almost as if it recedes into me, like it's my own self hatred that I haven't dealt with or something. I don't know.

Exactly what I was thinking. One aspect of emotional flashbacks is that they open the door again to the inner critic. We might have thought the door was closed for good, but emotional flashbacks offer the inner critic an opportunity to get back out and attack us again. What makes this extra difficult, is that as a result of the emotional flashback we are already at our most vulnerable and it is exactly then that the inner critic strikes again.

What you wrote there made me cry. How can I be the only one who can't see I have worth for existing?

That's what parrots do to you! It's also why my cousins are called lovebirds

Is it that you can't see it, or possibly also that the thought of seeing yourself this way is very scary? Perhaps a cost benefit analysis could help here. What are the benefits and costs of holding on to an image of yourself as worthless? What could the potential benefits and costs be of seeing yourself as inherently worthy?

I'll close it off with some more wise words from Pete Walker:
"My perfectionism arose as an attempt to gain safety and support in my dangerous family. Perfection is a self-persecutory myth. I do not have to be perfect to be safe or loved in the present. I am letting go of relationships that require perfection. I have a right to make mistakes. Mistakes do not make me a mistake. Every mistake or mishap is an opportunity to practice loving myself in the places I have never been loved."

Take care

The Board Parrot

[Fie]

There are statements Kwamina has made I know I could add as well as another member that complemented me on something a while back.

Do I happen to be this other member ?    

Would you please be so kind to put my words in your tiger box  "I always enjoy reading your posts, that are full of wisdom. I always learn something."   (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=298614.0)

[purekalm]

Hello Wools, 

Did you add the kind words from Rkmom?

Yes! Thank you for reminding me.

It doesn't matter a bit to me if you feel like you get it right or not because truly it isn't about that. It is all about you being who you are, and I like you as who you are, even though we've only met here at this site. You belong to our family, just the way you are. The rest of us are the way we are too and I know you accept us as well.

Thank you Wools, I feel the same way about you. It's still hard to completely accept, but I am working on it.

I woke up during the early morning hours very terrified from a nightmare (I still get them even though they are less often), and while I lay there trying to relax enough to go back to sleep, the Lord brought you to my mind. I prayed for you because you were/are in need.

I still have them every once in a while myself. I had them nightly until I was about 13 when I first started trying to give myself to the Lord and didn't really quite understand it all. Thank you for praying for me. Besides the advice I believe that's the most important and special thing you or anyone could do for me. Apparently I need some major help as I was also on my older sister's mind just the other night and she told me she prayed for me. I've cried more this past week and a half than I have for a long time, so hopefully that means something is changing.  

Have you ever thought about trying it again, if you could find someone trained in understanding BPD who was also a good match for you?

I have thought about it, but the way everything is in the world nowadays it's terrifying to happen upon the wrong one who may report me for thinking I can't take care of my son. Unfortunately, though I did nothing, it's in my history and I'm always looked at differently as soon as they are aware of the fact. I don't think I could bring myself to attempt it for this reason. It's too risky for my son. He's so innocent still. I couldn't bear the thought of what might happen to him at the hands of strangers if that were to happen.

I wish I could make it better for you in some way.

You do every time you post a caring and thoughtful response, as well as the time you prayed for me. I really do appreciate it. To have another input from someone who understands is very helpful. Thank you Wools, truly. 


Hi Kwamina

Annoying? No, not really actually.  ... .She might not be a bad person, but she did treat you badly, her behavior was wrong.

That's how I always feel, partly because of that. I am trying to work it out. I feel the same, she's not bad, just didn't understand. She'd been through her fare share of a disordered mother and abusive marriage and all kinds of stuff but she was 'tough' and stuck it out and wanted me to do the same and when I tried and couldn't and kept struggling with the same issues past the time she thought I should be done with it she eventually stopped trying to help. The couple times I seen her at stores after that she looked at me but purposely ignored me and wouldn't acknowledge me even with a hi, but that's ok. It really didn't hurt anymore by that point.

Your mind doing this could also be a coping mechanism you've developed. Pete Walker for instance says: " Fear launches us into 'heady' worrying, or numbing and spacing out."

Interesting. My mom is this to a T. She stresses the crap out of herself but I'm generally more laid back when it comes to things. I know that might sound weird. I've been like that, almost complete opposites on things depending on situations and stuff. I can definitely stress, but it usually takes quite a bit. I used to 'space' all the time, every since even my mom can remember when I was really young. I never knew where I went and my body functioned on auto, whether it was talking or driving or whatever task I was doing at the time. Used to scare me pretty bad but it doesn't happen that often anymore at all.

Do you believe this might explain what is going on with you when you experience that oppressive cloud?

That is possible. I usually become mute when I get extremely depressed and sometimes with the lesser form. Inside I'm saying help and I'm sorry but on the outside I'm completely silent, or on other occasions I could be very cutting so I had to work to not say anything, more rare for these. I feel completely and totally inadequate and I just want to go to sleep and hope I never wake up because I feel like all I've ever been is a burden.

Thinking about it, almost always during these times I want someone to be with me or hold me and tell me that no matter what it's ok and they still love me. I'm always looking for reassurance that I'm not worthless and when it never comes or someone gets angry at me I get even more depressed because I feel like I shouldn't exist being this way and feel like I'm just throwing a tantrum or something even though I know that's not what I was doing.

With the cloud, I don't know. It could be that or your next statement.

Could it be that the feeling of hope is in fact a trigger for you? If so, this cloud could possibly be related to your childhood with your parents. Good things probably never lasted very long back then or turned out not to be that good at all.   ... .In his work about emotional flashbacks, Pete Walker says that in childhood, fear and abandonment felt endless - a safer future was unimaginable.

After reading it a couple times so many things came to the surface. It became a common theme among me and my siblings that when something good happens it means something that much worse is right around the corner, and even before we believed it, it was. Always felt like life was a roller coaster. Even today people are astounded at the horrible 'luck' my siblings and I have and can't believe it. You have no idea how many times I've heard "This is weird, this never happens" "I've never heard of that, are you sure?" "I've been doing this for 30 plus years and this is the first time I've had this problem" "You're serious? But that's not even possible."  I can laugh about the past ones.

Good things were extremely far and few between and even then they were usually riddled with some negativity. I could never understand why everything was always so bad for me, for my family and not others. When I think about good things happening, whether I like it or not, what could or would go wrong would automatically fill my mind. It's like perpetually taking one step forward and a hundred back. Honestly, I think I am afraid of doing good. Maybe it's a coping mechanism? So I don't get too far and fail or have horrible things happen I keep myself in a position where I'm on a merry go round. Never getting ahead or behind, just doing the same thing over and over. I've never thought of it that way before, but I feel like there is some truth to it, something deep. Subconsciously self sabotaging? Hmmm... .

Feeling hopeful was something I gave up on about 13 or 14 and forced myself not to feel anymore. Maybe I haven't quite revived that part of me? I used to be the annoying optimist no matter the situation before I decided I couldn't live with the pain anymore.

Is it that you can't see it, or possibly also that the thought of seeing yourself this way is very scary? Perhaps a cost benefit analysis could help here. What are the benefits and costs of holding on to an image of yourself as worthless? What could the potential benefits and costs be of seeing yourself as inherently worthy?

I think it is something scary to think that I could have worth.

Worthless view: Benefits-I'm already a failure so no one can expect anything from me. I take care of others because they're more important. I don't have to hope and feel the pain of loss because I already know nothing good is going to happen. No one will want to be around me so I don't have to deal with boundaries and possible caretaking issues.
Costs: I'll never truly get anywhere in life. I won't get to learn from others if I keep to myself. What happens to my son's self image if mine is so poor? What life will my son have if I can't amount to anything? How does my son believe he has worth if I don't show what it means? I'll never accomplish anything I want to do because, what's the point if I feel worthless?

Inherently worthy viewpoint: Benefits-I can hope confidently for the future and not be broken down just because something doesn't work out. I can show my son a better life. My son will have a healthy viewpoint of himself. I can accomplish my goals because I would feel like they were worth doing. I could more effectively help others because I would have boundaries in place that protects my own worth without infringing upon theirs. I could accept compliments. I might not have to deal with depression anymore. I would probably try even harder to make things work because I was worth it. I could accept that the Lord loves me just the way I am and even when I fail it's not the end, it's a lesson learned and I can keep trying.
Costs-I'll have to break free of the deep rooted fear of accomplishment and instant payback in negative and I'm not even sure how. I've never lived thinking this, so it's scary and unknown and I'm not sure it's possible for me. This is all I've known and even though I don't want to live like this, can a life where I'm not on a rollercoaster exist?

Wow, the worthy viewpoint was so difficult to write. I know I didn't write everything because I felt almost as if I was pulling info from that deep place inside and it made me feel literally weak and shaky. I was trying to pull it up and it's like everything in me rejects the possibility of me being worthy so much it didn't want to let go or think differently at all. Very weird, I didn't expect that at all. I started to feel anxious and a little panicked.

Every mistake or mishap is an opportunity to practice loving myself in the places I have never been loved."

Funny you should mention this. I just finished reading the third book in a series and one of the author's main messages was that we are all in 'a series of remembering and forgetting' who we are in God. One part mentioned that if we hate on ourselves for the times we forget we get further away from the original path of remembering who we really are and accepting that truth. I always beat myself up so hard for mistakes and failures, but, if I could forgive myself and try again, how much of my life would change?

Hello Fie

Yes actually, the exact words I was thinking!  I was going to look back in my posts for who it was. I am sorry. I remember faces but forget names! I'm the "landmark' person, not street names.    Thank you again for your very kind comment and yes I have added it to my box. 

[Fie]

Have you ever thought about trying it again, if you could find someone trained in understanding BPD who was also a good match for you?

I have thought about it, but the way everything is in the world nowadays it's terrifying to happen upon the wrong one who may report me for thinking I can't take care of my son. Unfortunately, though I did nothing, it's in my history and I'm always looked at differently as soon as they are aware of the fact. I don't think I could bring myself to attempt it for this reason. It's too risky for my son. He's so innocent still. I couldn't bear the thought of what might happen to him at the hands of strangers if that were to happen.

Dear Purekalm, do you mind if I ask you what it is concretely that a therapist could accuse you of ?
Have you physically harmed you son in a really bad way in the past ? Is this something you are afraid of telling a therapist, because you think she/he will feel obliged to inform the authorities ?

x

[purekalm]

Fie,

Dear Purekalm, do you mind if I ask you what it is concretely that a therapist could accuse you of ?
Have you physically harmed you son in a really bad way in the past ? Is this something you are afraid of telling a therapist, because you think she/he will feel obliged to inform the authorities ?

I've never physically harmed him. Because of his constant meltdowns in the first few years I learned quickly how to hold him without letting him fall to the floor or leaving any marks. Kind of like, locking my muscles up so it was kind of a cage more than pressing on him.(He would fling himself around, completely unaware to the dangers around him because he was overwhelmed.) The most damage I've done to him has probably been mental because of my depression and not being able to keep it together all the time. I have a lot of shame and guilt for that and it helps fuel the worthless feeling. Unlike some, I have a decent memory so even though I ask for his forgiveness and I'm SO much better, I can't forget the damage I've done. I understand it's nothing compared to what his dad has done, but it doesn't excuse me. 

Having a mental disorder, depression. Also, if I were tested, aspergers. I won't get tested partly for this reason and mostly cause I don't really care to. Having a disability or mental disorder is grounds for taking custody away from a parent. Even though I was never blamed for anything and complied with all requests, submitting to psych profiles and counseling, parenting classes, the works, it's in my history, child abuse. With a previous history I'm more likely to get on the wrong side quicker without doing anything wrong. I always have tried to stay on the right side of the law even when pressured not to by family even and people shamed me and got mad at me for it.

A therapist is mandated to report anyone they 'deem' an unfit parent in any way. That term has become pretty lax nowadays and I was told by my attorney and my husband's when our case was finalized that if anything ever happened again there would be no questions and my son would be taken and we would be put in jail until proven innocent. I tried for a couple years to keep him in a bubble because of that. I think you can imagine how much damage my heart took when he started crawling and walking... .

Maybe they don't seem like legitimate fears, but to me they are. I would rather try to stick it out than put my son through anything else. He's been through enough already and because of autism, I know his struggles aren't anywhere near close to over.

[Fie]

Hey Purekalm   

I looked through your previous posts and unless I missed something, there once were investigations concerning abuse of your son. His dad's behavior was looked into, but the conclusion was that he did not harm your son intentionally. Is that correct ?

Depression is not a reason to take away children from their parents. If this were the case than 80% of the people on these boards would be considered unfit parents. And no one of them would have a therapist. Almost everyone at least has one depression in his/her life.
Please do yourself *and* your son a favor and consider counseling. A good parent cares for him/herself first, and for his/her mental health. So he can become an even better one.

Sometimes we feel very bad and we cannot see very clear anymore in certain areas. Do you think that can be the  case for you now ? Our children are the most precious gift we have. It is only normal that this is the very domaine were we get tangled in a lot of emotions sometimes. But the emotions are not always facts.

[purekalm]

Hello Fie,

I looked through your previous posts and unless I missed something, there once were investigations concerning abuse of your son. His dad's behavior was looked into, but the conclusion was that he did not harm your son intentionally. Is that correct ?

Originally, they blamed him and put him in jail for forty days. There was a hearing in which they decided he did nothing and no one was blamed. They wanted to take my son away from me because they 100% believed he harmed him and I was not fit to discern danger or proper care for my son. That is why they ordered me to do everything they ordered my husband to do. There were little things that people kept saying and doing to see what I would allow to happen to my son and I was pretty much under constant surveillance with visits, doctors and the like for over a year.

Sometimes we feel very bad and we cannot see very clear anymore in certain areas. Do you think that can be the  case for you now ? Our children are the most precious gift we have. It is only normal that this is the very domaine were we get tangled in a lot of emotions sometimes. But the emotions are not always facts.

I understand and appreciate your concern. However, I've never been a very emotional person to begin with and above anyone in my family, everyone has always said that I have the most level head. Depression has taken some of this from me at times I agree, but over all, I consider everything involved.

My son is the reason I've fought so hard all these years to get it together and work on my issues. I've written here for a different perspective when I never would've done that previously. He is the most precious person in the world to me.

I fully plan on getting counseling in the future, but not at this time. In my opinion, it is better to err on the side of caution. I am definitely working on deeper issues recently, such as how I view my worth or lack thereof. Most of the work I have done to get where I am has been with God's help and more recently also this forum.

Since my husband left though, my mind has been much more clear. When he was here my son was constantly irritable, had a hard time sleeping and was really fussy. I had a constant headache and I had a hard time thinking straight, like my mind was jumbled. He didn't have to do anything, he could be sleeping. His presence, for not wanting to be here was so toxic at that point that it was affecting us regardless of if he acted out or not. I have been able to see my son smile and laugh more (He's always been a pretty happy child) than I have in a long time and he's grown so much. He can do so many things that he wouldn't even attempt, and it's only been four months!

For me, my next step is getting on my own two feet and being able to move out on my own so that I can be at a distance from everyone that's toxic and we'll finally be able to have some true peace in our own home. (Me and my son.)

Again, I thank your for your questions and concerns. 
 

[Fie]

That is why they ordered me to do everything they ordered my husband to do. There were little things that people kept saying and doing to see what I would allow to happen to my son and I was pretty much under constant surveillance with visits, doctors and the like for over a year.

This must have been hell for you. Being under surveillance because of what your husband (unwillingly) did to the person you actually love the most in the world.  You deserve a big hug 
You must have felt horrible from all of this. I think I would have gotten depressed as well, and paranoid probably too.   

[purekalm]

Hello Fie,

This must have been hell for you. Being under surveillance because of what your husband (unwillingly) did to the person you actually love the most in the world.  You deserve a big hug   
You must have felt horrible from all of this. I think I would have gotten depressed as well, and paranoid probably too.    

It was, and the effects have lasted long after. I was terrified. He wasn't crawling or walking yet, what would happen if he hit his head or fell or? or? or? I was filled with anxiety and depressed and had to 'prove' that I was a competent parent. He was my first child, and my only, and I was being accused of not loving or caring for him the way I was supposed to. In short, a bad mom. It's never left me and I still struggle with it. Endless questions of if I'm good enough.

Every scrape or bump that seemed serious I took him to the hospital or doctor. What if it turned out to be serious and I didn't take him? Then I got questioned on why he was there so often. Being concerned about him not eating healthy (he only eats a few foods and they aren't healthy ones at the moment) and the doctors are fine because he's still gaining weight.

The last time I took him to the doctor (over a year ago because he was walking down the handle of a wagon and I told him to stop but he wouldn't, slipped and ended up with a toddler fracture) we got sent to a children's hospital to get checked out only to find out that she reported us saying our protection plan was still in place from over three years ago and his dad wasn't allowed to be near him. They gave me weird looks and disbelief for what happened, but he's a kid! He does weird things! I understand the reality for others, but it's not mine. We were separated and they tried to question my son but at the time he could only put a few words together and he passed out because we were waiting so long and then I was questioned and we had to wait until they confirmed that we were in legal bounds. All eyes and disgust were on me as I carried my son to be x-rayed. It's horrible, it never leaves. It follows us like a curse and there's nothing I can do about it but grin and bear it for my son's sake. One minute you're a human being, the next, the scum on the bottom of their shoes.

I've been through enough, seen enough and heard enough to know what I risk if I see a counselor now. I wish it wasn't the case, but people are not as understanding as they lead you to believe. They will smile while they are writing down reasons why you're not safe for your child. They will tell you it's ok just so you open up and give them more fuel for their fire. I didn't always distrust people so, I learned to because of all the wolves in sheep's clothing I've encountered in my life.

[Kwamina]

Hi again purekalm

Thinking about it, almost always during these times I want someone to be with me or hold me and tell me that no matter what it's ok and they still love me. I'm always looking for reassurance that I'm not worthless and when it never comes or someone gets angry at me I get even more depressed because I feel like I shouldn't exist being this way and feel like I'm just throwing a tantrum or something even though I know that's not what I was doing.

This could be at the heart of a lot of what you are dealing with, the longing to be unconditionally loved and accepted. I recently read a book based on the painting 'the return of the prodigal son' which in its turn was based on the parable from the Bible. The book explores the topic of unconditional love and the longing to finally experience it.

Feeling hopeful was something I gave up on about 13 or 14 and forced myself not to feel anymore. Maybe I haven't quite revived that part of me? I used to be the annoying optimist no matter the situation before I decided I couldn't live with the pain anymore.

Perhaps we can use this thread to start the process of reviving this part of you. After all, Hope is the thing with feathers, that perches in the soul, and sings the tune without the words, and never stops at all

I've never lived thinking this, so it's scary and unknown and I'm not sure it's possible for me. This is all I've known and even though I don't want to live like this, can a life where I'm not on a rollercoaster exist?

I think it can exist. There might still be bumps along the way and perhaps even some rollercoaster like moments, but I think it is possible to move more in the direction of a pure calm. Maybe that's just me being the optimistic parrot, singing the tune and never stopping at all... .or maybe a brighter tomorrow can actually be realized. Your actions actually reflect a sense of hope and resilience as you've never stopped at all and have always kept fighting. The fight in you is a sign of the hope that perches in your soul even when you might not be aware of it.

Wow, the worthy viewpoint was so difficult to write. I know I didn't write everything because I felt almost as if I was pulling info from that deep place inside and it made me feel literally weak and shaky. I was trying to pull it up and it's like everything in me rejects the possibility of me being worthy so much it didn't want to let go or think differently at all. Very weird, I didn't expect that at all. I started to feel anxious and a little panicked.

That's what parrots do, we sometimes make people a bit uncomfortable to help guide them to a new place that can actually be very comfortable. How do you feel now? Ready to write part 2 of the worthy viewpoint?

Funny you should mention this. I just finished reading the third book in a series and one of the author's main messages was that we are all in 'a series of remembering and forgetting' who we are in God. One part mentioned that if we hate on ourselves for the times we forget we get further away from the original path of remembering who we really are and accepting that truth. I always beat myself up so hard for mistakes and failures, but, if I could forgive myself and try again, how much of my life would change?

I think your life, particularly your perception of and feelings about life, would change significantly. That book you just read is very interesting and the part you paraphrased reminds me of another thing Pete Walker says when writing about talking back to the inner critic:
"I commit to myself. I am on my side. I am a good enough person. I refuse to trash myself. I turn shame back into blame and disgust, and externalize it to anyone who shames my normal feelings and foibles. As long as I am not hurting anyone, I refuse to be shamed for normal emotional responses like anger, sadness, fear and depression. I especially refuse to attack myself for how hard it is to completely eliminate the self-hate habit."

Take care my friend

The Accepting Board Parrot

[purekalm]

Hello again Kwamina,

This could be at the heart of a lot of what you are dealing with, the longing to be unconditionally loved and accepted.

I realized this myself after I wrote it. Kind of a thing like, even at my worst, can I still be loved? Truthfully, I know that I love myself somewhere, or at least I did at one point. For anyone else I would say the answer is yes without doubt. I want to be able to say the same for myself.

After all, Hope is the thing with feathers, that perches in the soul, and sings the tune without the words, and never stops at all 

I like this. It paints a beautiful picture to ponder. 

Your actions actually reflect a sense of hope and resilience as you've never stopped at all and have always kept fighting. The fight in you is a sign of the hope that perches in your soul even when you might not be aware of it.

True. Even when I've wanted to I wouldn't give up, just tired of it being so hard!  Like you said before, having hope really is a trigger for me to feel down. I've been fighting it for a couple weeks now and I still have thoughts of overwhelming fear and hopelessness. I have to keep saying the opposite even when I don't necessarily believe in it more than the negative thoughts. I try to picture where I hope for my son and me to be in December, after not giving up and pushing myself harder than I ever have through the muck.  I have to do something different to get a different result, and that's what I'm trying to do, no matter what. That 'no matter what' scares me, because I know a whole ton of things that could mean. But, I'm doing my best not to give in. 

That's what parrots do, we sometimes make people a bit uncomfortable to help guide them to a new place that can actually be very comfortable. How do you feel now? Ready to write part 2 of the worthy viewpoint? 

Hmm... .I still feel uneasy about it.

... ."I commit to myself. I am on my side. I am a good enough person. I refuse to trash myself. I turn shame back into blame and disgust, and externalize it to anyone who shames my normal feelings and foibles. As long as I am not hurting anyone, I refuse to be shamed for normal emotional responses like anger, sadness, fear and depression. I especially refuse to attack myself for how hard it is to completely eliminate the self-hate habit."

Reading that is hard enough. I have to pretend that it's the author or you speaking to get through it. I tried and can't even bring myself to say it out loud. This really makes me so frustrated with myself. Why? Why is it this hard? I don't understand. I want to do it and still can't.

If I currently believe I am less than a person, then what will believing I'm on equal ground with everyone else change? As I ask myself this question my mind is blank. Can I really not even fathom that as a reality?

Interesting. I pictured myself half in the ground with nameless others and it was uncomfortable, but I'm largely left alone. I pictured myself on equal ground and instantly the figures turned toward me with anger and disgust and I could clearly picture the word target. So, I don't want to be a target so much that it's ingrained deeply enough to keep me from accepting my worth? I guess that makes sense, I was pretty young when I started getting treated that way.

Ugh, why does it always seem like something that wouldn't bother me now is what caused me to suffer the majority of my life?     

I still don't like attention, but I know why now. I can handle being a target, even though unpleasant. Positive attention is what I struggle with the most, but I know why, it made me a target for anger, disgust and jealousy.

Hmmm... .I wonder. Finally knowing what has stopped me, it feels like a switch was just flipped. 

I read it Kwamina! I read it!      There was some little desperate tendrils hanging on when I first started but I kept reading and started to cry a little and then I felt ok again. By the time I finished reading it my head hurt a little. I think there may be some rewiring going on.  

I know it's not over, but I have a start. I know what to say to myself now when I start trying to stuff myself back in the ground.  

Thank you Kwamina for always asking the hard questions and not getting irritated with me. 

Purekalm

[purekalm]

Just wanted to say real quick, I know it looks like what I wrote happened quickly. I was sitting there for quite a while in between my thoughts though.  

[Kwamina]

Ugh, why does it always seem like something that wouldn't bother me now is what caused me to suffer the majority of my life? 

This can indeed be a bit frustrating. We were just children and unfortunately children aren't born ready to deal with these things and as a result we now might find ourselves struggling in certain areas. But there's hope though as illustrated by the rest of your post:

I read it Kwamina! I read it!      There was some little desperate tendrils hanging on when I first started but I kept reading and started to cry a little and then I felt ok again. By the time I finished reading it my head hurt a little. I think there may be some rewiring going on.  

That's great!

Just wanted to say real quick, I know it looks like what I wrote happened quickly. I was sitting there for quite a while in between my thoughts though.   

That's ok, my parrot sense kind of told me that I was reading two posts in one