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How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
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Author Topic: What are the advantages of marriage?  (Read 762 times)
Lucky Jim
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« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2017, 09:25:15 AM »

Excerpt
In honesty though, what is best for them?  I think they sense more than they let on.  Would splitting help? or hurt?

Hey Samwize, I would take the opposite tack from GK and suggest that Staying can also be harmful on children.  While still married to my BPDxW, I used to ponder what sort of an example I was providing to my kids.  I like to think that I demonstrated that one need not remain in an abusive situation and that change is possible in life.  Whether any of this will sink in with them (they are teenagers) remains an open question.

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« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2017, 10:10:50 AM »

Yes. I'm trying to be aware of impact on the kids.  In fact, that's the sum of my reasons for staying at all.

I don't want to be a role model as a selfish ass who got a divorce because he wasn't "happy."

I accept that staying might provide stability.  Although kids might have deep thoughts at some point, school kids are likely concerned with "what about me?"  Who picks me up, can I stay in band, who feeds me? Who disciplines me? what can I get away with?

Two unhappy parents at home fighting will still at least feed them and shuttle them to activities and pay for stuff.  My wife, for all the manipulation, projection, internal fear and despair still shuttles kids, checks homework, dresses them, and occasionally cooks.  I bet a lot of kids aren't so well off.  Which makes it hard to solidify reasons to leave the marriage and not feel like an oversensitive, unhappy, mid-life crisis, bored guy.

I don't fight anymore.  But, the point is, the kids have a home base that is not threatened.  They don't need to know that I'm dying inside thinking about spending time with my wife. They don't need to know that my marriage is unfulfilling.  However, I know something is wrong since I usually have to talk to their mom as though I'm coaxing or sidestepping a toddler. There's no love, no married happiness, no connection.  I am completely blank on positives about marriage (well, somewhat, as we discussed in this thread).  So I know I'm not setting a role model for a meaningful adult relationship.  What the kids have to look forward to, I don't know.

A phrase I like is that it's better to be from a broken home than in a broken home.  I think that was Dr. Phil, but, I don't recall. I'm with you LJ, on thinking that I can demonstrate better behavior by getting out of this relationship and focus on me and the kids.  I am haunted by my own admission that if my kids were in a marriage like this, I would drop what I was doing, if they asked, and help them move out right then and there.  I am an advocate of divorce when necessary these days.
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« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2017, 12:00:29 PM »

I don't want to be a role model as a selfish ass who got a divorce because he wasn't "happy."

That isn't a fair description of anything you are considering doing. What you experience with your wife is far more than just not being "happy" and you know it. We've lived it; we know it too.

Excerpt
I don't fight anymore.  But, the point is, the kids have a home base that is not threatened.  They don't need to know that I'm dying inside thinking about spending time with my wife. They don't need to know that my marriage is unfulfilling.  However, I know something is wrong since I usually have to talk to their mom as though I'm coaxing or sidestepping a toddler. There's no love, no married happiness, no connection.

You shouldn't be talking to kids about this. Not fair to them.

But they notice anyways. They are aware. Those are the unwritten but followed rules of your house, and they live them, and will form their idea of what a marriage should look like from watching yours. (They may aim for the opposite instead of the same, but it will have an impact, for sure)

Anyhow, I also want to clarify that I'm aware that there are costs to staying as well as to leaving, and deciding which is worse is hard. There really are no easy choices here.
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SamwizeGamgee
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« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2017, 12:32:23 PM »

Bullet: comment directed to __ (click to insert in post) GK - I know you're in the right place.  And I made the first statement you quote as an extreme overstatement for effect.  I don't want to be that guy.  But, I also put that out there as a way my actions could be spun for those who don't know (i.e. mom to the kids in a worse case scenario).

 I appreciate that you see it's no easy place to be in.  That's for all of us suffering second-hand BPD.  The choice sometimes seems like a choice between cancer or amputation. 
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« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2017, 04:14:24 PM »

  That's for all of us suffering second-hand BPD.  The choice sometimes seems like a choice between cancer or amputation. 

Change suffering to "affected by"... .I think it will be more productive in your thinking.

I think you are getting great advice.  I'm less interested in the decision you make than I am in your mindset about making a choice... .

Frankly, either choice made with "victim mentality" or with any thinking that "you had no other choice"... .or "you were made to do this"... .is not going to do you well in the future.  Again... .that thought applies to staying and going.

Either choice made as a conscious decision on your part... .will likely turn out much better.

Emotionally... .I get what you are saying about "suffering".  Emotions do play a role in making your decision, but... .in my opinion... .they should play a minor role.

Thoughts?

FF
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« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2017, 06:00:16 PM »

The choice sometimes seems like a choice between cancer or amputation. 

Try not to make this choice worse than it is. If you focus on it that way, it helps you get frozen in indecision. (Yes, I know that feeling all too well!) I once had a therapist call that kind of thing "awfulizing"... .

I'd suggest you work out and write down as detailed a description as you can of the a couple likely scenarios if you start divorce proceedings. Really try to imagine what it will be like to go through it, and to get to the other end, and how it will be for your kids. And try to compare that to staying. Perhaps work on some "what-if" questions as to what it would take to make it worth taking action. And anything you can do to improve things.

Please remember that many long-term stayers have found it possible to pretty much eliminate the abuse in their marriage, and when it does show up, shut it down immediately. That is pretty achievable, even without your wife working with you. (You will not get a full emotional partner in a marriage that way, as you already know)
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« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2017, 07:51:51 PM »


Please remember that many long-term stayers have found it possible to pretty much eliminate the abuse in their marriage, and when it does show up, shut it down immediately. 

This is me and my r/s.

I would say I'm about 90% there. 

Every so often... .the "other woman" shows up and we have a good time for a few days.  I am careful to "not get too close", but I do "lean in" some.

I have a long list of self care activities I can turn to... .when it's needed.  I am 100% unapologetic for taking time for myself... .when I need it.

And... .I can't emphasize this part enough I have a really good support structure.

The issue below popped up today... .out of the blue.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=305986.0

I wrote a draft... .texted my psychologist.  Then posted here.  Then spoke with my P for 10-15 minutes...

I was generally in the right direction without my support system.  However... .P knows me... .made me use less words.  No drama.


Then I sent the email soon after.

I'm going to go to the gym and de-stress... .in about 10 minutes. 


FF
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SamwizeGamgee
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« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2017, 08:40:20 AM »

Thanks all for the responses.  I have developed a lot of habits and skills that make living with my uBPDw almost undetectable most of the time.  I know what you mean about being able to do the right things and live "comfortably" with BPD.  Unfortunately it involves very rigid filtered speech on my part, total bulllet-proofing of my feelings, suppression of my wants and needs as it concerns marriage. On the good side, I run a lot to cope, and do my therapy thinking, meditation, and really doing a stand up job of parenting.  I also am super aware of validation and listening.  A great deal of good comes out of my learned good behavior as a result of living alongside what I found out much later was BPD behavior.

Bullet: comment directed to __ (click to insert in post) GK I'll accept the challenge to write down scenarios, and steps with the possibilities ahead. It will give my rational mind something to do to take a load off my feeling mind.
I kind of think the sleeping giant of my psyche is waking, not to save a marriage but to end it.  This will let me forecast better.
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Lucky Jim
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« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2017, 10:02:03 AM »

Hey Sam, Let me add my two cents to the mix: don't rule out greater happiness, which I think should be a goal whether you decide to stay or leave.  I'm currently in a healthy r/s with a kind and caring woman who is quite supportive.  It's night and day from my marriage.  Not saying it's perfect (I don't look for that), but I'm a lot happier and relaxed when I'm with her.  We have fun together, which makes everything else seem lighter.

Of course it's been rough sledding with my kids, and separation & divorce was extremely stressful.  I don't want to sugarcoat anything.  Divorce is hard on all involved.  Yet staying is hard, too.

I concur w/GK: you are not a selfish ass!  So don't put yourself down.

LuckyJim
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« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2017, 10:27:09 AM »

I'm making a chart now.  There are too many "what ifs" to make it smooth.  But, it is bringing up some points to ponder. 

I think I have the life skills to stay functionally married, but, it would be through force of will, and not happiness, unity, or purpose.  It would be me accepting my sentence, as far as I can tell.

I would like to know from those staying and doing okay if they have benefits to the marriage.  I can't dig up any special love for my wife, and I can't think of what to rekindle.  It never was there very much.  There's not a time that I can think of that I'd like to go back to, sort of like I have nothing to shoot for if I tried staying.  The chart on the "staying" side of things is pretty much "more of the same."  I've defused the triggers, and can avoid huge blow outs.  However, I can't last like this.  I have two tracks for staying - staying long haul to the visible end.  And, staying for a few more years to keep things together for stability with the kids.  Staying married makes financial planning easier, with clear variables as to housing, and major purchases, and retirement later. 

On the proceeding down the divorce route, there are two major branches.  First I go unilateral and push it my way.  Second it goes bilateral in which we reach some agreement and make our peace. 

The surprise attack and hard-line divorce might be most effective, in that she will probably breakdown and shut down long enough for me to make big legal gains.  But, she won't stay down forever and that will probably end up with an adversarial relationship leading at least to parental alienation, if not constant legal and personal grudges. 

The unclear way is how to get to a peaceful split that would help with productive co-parenting.  This is an enigma.  I don't know what will happen or how to get there.

I reminded myself to advocate better for myself, and I'm trying to repeat the phrase that "I can live" a few times.  Given that, I can't fill up the staying side with a life mission plan.  Am I too down to see the good?
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« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2017, 12:13:48 PM »

 Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) Good work!

I've got one suggestion for each path:

The chart on the "staying" side of things is pretty much "more of the same."  I've defused the triggers, and can avoid huge blow outs.  However, I can't last like this.

I believe you when you say you can't last like this. I think you need more in your life than this provides. Make a list of the things you DON'T get in your marriage that you need, and see if there is a way to get what you need from some source other than your wife. That doesn't have to mean cheating. I'm guessing it would include an intimate, trusted friend or perhaps several that you can talk to and "be yourself" around... .and I'm sure your wife won't approve, so you may have to keep this private and/or enforce a boundary to keep it.

Excerpt
On the proceeding down the divorce route, there are two major branches.  First I go unilateral and push it my way.  Second it goes bilateral in which we reach some agreement and make our peace. 

Please post about this on the Family Law, Divorce and Custody board... .whether you have the option of a peaceful/amicable agreement has a lot to do with how your wife responds to conflict. Read a bunch of stories there and figure out which ones are acting the way your wife is likely to act, and plan accordingly.
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Lucky Jim
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« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2017, 01:29:36 PM »

Hey Sam, Well, I took a third path as you know which involved staying for the kids and then crash landing after running out of emotional fuel.  The price of staying proved too high for me.  I don't recommend this path, though it made my choice easier, if that makes sense.  I guess what I'm saying is that it's worth considering whether "more of the same" is actually in your best interests.  I'm sure you'll figure out what is the right path for you!  LJ
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« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2017, 02:13:42 PM »

Bullet: comment directed to __ (click to insert in post) LJ, I'm following you.  On the rational side, it makes financial sense to stay married and ride it out. To provide a stable place for kids to live, stay married. To plan for the future, stay married.  To avoid living alone, stay married.  And so forth.  And absent some blatant egregious behavior, the ordinary solution is to just stay married and learn to live with it. 
But, I am looking at that solution, and there's something wrong with it - I feel on the inside.
I have been holding on, and floating in indecision for so long, I think I'm learning that, like you, I cannot make it - even with all the nice band-aids from working on healthier behaviors and mindset for me.
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« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2017, 03:20:59 PM »

  I feel on the inside.

I hope you can turn that feeling into action on the outside.  So there is consistency

That you take action on feelings that are stable (vice flash in the pan feelings).

I certainly would advise to take action first "inside" the marriage... .individuate... .advocate for yourself... .live you life.

If you ever get to the point where you are not sure about anything else you can do "inside" the marriage... .then seriously consider "outside" options.

How does that seem to you?

FF
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« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2017, 05:18:54 PM »

Excerpt
But, I am looking at that solution, and there's something wrong with it - I feel on the inside.
I have been holding on, and floating in indecision for so long, I think I'm learning that, like you, I cannot make it - even with all the nice band-aids from working on healthier behaviors and mindset for me.

Hey Sam, Right, there is something fundamentally wrong with that solution.  On some level I knew it, but couldn't admit it to myself.  Took two kind friends and a family member to bring me to my senses.  I can't take credit because they had to conduct an intervention on me.  Not suggesting that you follow in my footsteps; rather, I'm encouraging you to listen to your gut feelings and come up with a plan that is consistent with your core.  Nothing wrong with lists and charts, but they can get in the way of shooting the arrow.  What arrow?  Well, to find out you have to read Zen in the Art of Archery!   Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2017, 05:25:49 PM »

I'm encouraging you to listen to your gut feelings and come up with a plan that is consistent with your core.  

 Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2017, 05:57:25 PM »

Excerpt
On the rational side, it makes financial sense to stay married and ride it out. To provide a stable place for kids to live, stay married. To plan for the future, stay married.  To avoid living alone, stay married.  And so forth.  And absent some blatant egregious behavior, the ordinary solution is to just stay married and learn to live with it. 
But, I am looking at that solution, and there's something wrong with it - I feel on the inside.
I have been holding on, and floating in indecision for so long, I think I'm learning that, like you, I cannot make it - even with all the nice band-aids from working on healthier behaviors and mindset for me.

Been following this thread ... .what great advice... .I am at the exact same place, with the exception my 2 kids are now young adults and I would change only to provide a stable place for them to come and visit.  For what its worth... .I look at my kids and think the damage is done. the whole time I was trying to hang in there with my uBPDw was to provide a "stable" place for kids accomplished just the opposite.   I am trying to go with my gut, this conversation  is helping me get there.
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« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2017, 06:59:54 PM »

The fact that your W is fairly high functional is a plus whether you stay or leave, otherwise she is baggage.  You'd do yourself a big fat favor getting her back to work before you initiate divorce.

Your mental and emotional needs seem to be your biggest driver right now, not necessarily craziness run amuck in the home.  Bear in mind, separation won't necessarily meet those needs or guarantee you will find it in the future.  It does at least make it more likely, though, since it is unlikely you will find it in your current situation. Those unmet needs can place your in a vulnerable position as you try to meet them.



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SamwizeGamgee
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« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2017, 08:26:28 AM »

I'm going through this thread again, it was packed with my feelings, and good feedback. 
I am making visits to a T again, and I'm trying to get (back) to a decision I am sure of. 
I have tapped into some deeper feelings of how long I have regretted this marriage. 
I'll keep working on the steps to the right ---->
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Lucky Jim
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« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2017, 09:34:48 AM »

Hey Sam, Keep us posted.  You seem to be acknowledging and addressing your deep feelings, which is part of being true to oneself.  My suggestion: strive for authenticity.  Become who you are.  LJ
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« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2017, 03:11:21 PM »

Thanks LJ.  I have been trying to slow down my process of feeling and then stuffing away my feelings.  I have gotten so good at being happy and keeping on going that I'm missing my life -or at least some of it.

I also have been so focused on BPD as the elephant in the room that I'm forgetting to just get in touch with myself and say that I'm not fulfilled in this marriage - wouldn't matter if it was to Mother Theresa -- of course, being married to a nun would be a whole new set of problems
But, my point is that I have bitten into BPD and figuring out all this healthy living around it, that I'm drowning out my inner voice.  Or, so it seems.
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« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2017, 04:38:18 PM »

Hey Sam, Right, listen to your inner voice.  For me, that voice is akin to a pilot light on a gas stove that is unseen but always on, even when the stove is off.  When I hit bottom in the aftermath of marriage to a pwBPD, I discovered that my personal pilot light was still on.  Yours is too, I'm sure. 

As I've said before, I don't recommend my path to anyone but me, yet I can confirm that there is life after a BPD r/s if you determine that is the right course for you.  And in my case, greater happiness, which in my view is what it's all about.

LJ
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« Reply #52 on: March 07, 2017, 12:20:57 AM »

Well, considering that over 50% of marriages end in divorce; 80% of divorces are initiated by the woman... .not sure what the point of marriage is in modern society, except financial I guess.  And then, most men lose everything in that regard when it comes to the end of their marriage.

I don't think being married "for the sake of not being alone" is a good idea... .because I know plenty of people who did that, then got divorced due to being incompatible.

Marriage for the sake of regular sex? That goes away eventually... .with todays empty hook up culture... .getting sex is easier than buying a gallon of milk.

Comedian Bill Burr said (paraphrased), "Almost 3/4 of marriages end in divorce.  What if I told you only 3/4 of parachutes for sky diving will fail and not open... .would you still do it? Of course not! Yet people still get married!"

Ironically, he just got married... .so take that joke with a grain of salt.  We have been programmed from the time we were born to believe we need to be married in order to be happy.  Sure, maybe 50 years ago... .but times are different now.  People have to many options... .cheating is an epidemic. Marriages are cast aside like yesterday's garbage

Believe me, I would have loved to honor God and get married myself, I tried several times myself... .but now that I've wasted so many years, endured cheating woman after woman because they were "bored" or wanted more money, gifts, and trips from me... .I'm done.  

In my experience, when the intimacy (physical, emotional) dries up... .the "marriage" is over.  It becomes like a house of cards, everything else eventually follows.

I'm 40 now, maybe I'm "cynical" and "bitter... .but  life moving forward is about me... .no more trying to give to woman love like a bucket with a hole in the bottom of it... .futile trying to fill it. Maybe I'll date, maybe I won't. I don't really care.   You touch a hot stove enough times, you learn it's better to stop while you're ahead and not get burned.

I'm never going to go through a divorce... .I've seen it ruin to many men who never recover.


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« Reply #53 on: March 07, 2017, 09:00:55 AM »

I hear you.  There are plenty of reasons to feel down on marriage.  I've even described trying to love my wife as filling a bucket with holes in it.  On the upside, I've been blessed with five great kids and a marriage contract that helps provide stable care for them.

Although I'd like a meaningful and satisfying sex life - which my marriage doesn't provide, I am not going to go on flings and hookups.  I'd feel safer and healthier licking toilet seats at the airport.  I'm disaffected by marriage enough now to avoid women for a while.
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