Once More, With Feeling

[WalkingInRain]

Hey everyone.

So I've been spending most of my time over on the detachment board because at the end of the day I've "given" up on hope.  Not in terms of a fatalistic view of the situation but rather that hope started to feel like self-harm.  I'm trying to live now with my eyes unclouded.

But in that perspective, as I've been working through the last cycle here, I'm also trying to find a pathway forward with grace.  I've invested ten years into this relationship with watching her spiral so many times now.  And while I am accepting that this is likely the end, I don't want to just cut her off and move on simply because that's the "best" thing to do.

I do actually believe she can get better, but perhaps just not now or tomorrow.  But even as I believe that, I look and know I can't keep on going on with the loop and limbo.  Could I stand by her through recovery, yep, absolutely.  But the limbo.  Too many years of that.

I should say before anything else my wife has been diagnosed with CPTSD, depression and anxiety, but not officially BPD.  So I'm on here more because she seems to have many signs of it - splitting, hair trigger rages, lack of identity, extremely low self-worth, hot/cold behavior, and near constant limbo states - and I've been working through processing my own feels and looking for the missing pieces of the puzzle.

And I know she loves me and I love her.

Anyway, before I wonder off into the land of tangent yonder, I'm right now trying to find a way forward with a set of extreme anxiety mixed together with her going pretty silent / non-responsive at times.  We are currently living apart as we took a big break up earlier this year.

Some days the old her will shine through, but most days she sits in her apartment and basically hides from the world with her anxiety.  She is still managing to get out with friends now and then.  I've been trying to support her and encourage her to work out more (on her good days she partly lives in the gym), and that I am here to listen and talk.  But she doesn't really open up.  And basically lies that she is "okay" even when I know after all these years when she's really not.

I'm realistic.  The chances are this won't work out.  That I will move on.  But well, I'm giving it likely through the holidays.  A window for things to still turn around.  Between now and whatever then it will be, I want to give it my honest heart.

I know that at the end the day, getting better is both on her and up to her.  I can't control that.  I can't make it happen.  But I would welcome ideas on how I might be able to support her in this time left.  How to talk to perhaps lower her anxiety or create a chance for something better to bloom again.

Thanks for the time everyone.

-WalkingInRain

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[kells76]

Hi WalkingInRain;

It makes sense that however this relationship turns out (repair, parting ways, etc), you'd want to find tools and skills to navigate the next few months in the most effective way possible. That's definitely why the "Bettering" board is here.

I'm right now trying to find a way forward with a set of extreme anxiety mixed together with her going pretty silent / non-responsive at times.  We are currently living apart as we took a big break up earlier this year.

Is that your anxiety, or hers?

Some days the old her will shine through, but most days she sits in her apartment and basically hides from the world with her anxiety.  She is still managing to get out with friends now and then.  I've been trying to support her and encourage her to work out more (on her good days she partly lives in the gym), and that I am here to listen and talk.  But she doesn't really open up.  And basically lies that she is "okay" even when I know after all these years when she's really not.

If you were to break down the subject matter of your communications with her, what % would you give to each of the following:

-her issues
-the relationship
-encouraging/supporting her
-logistics (finances, housing, etc)
-neutral low key no-investment topics (cute pictures, positive news stories, etc)
-other (let me know if I missed guessing the most common topics)

Gut feeling is it's actually making sense to me that she's withdrawing/minimizing in relationship to your encouragement/support. It might be too emotionally intense for her at the moment, and rather than lash out at you to get you to stop poking emotional stuff (acting out), or communicating directly (high skill approach), she pulls away and shuts down (low skill but not acting out at you).

You know her best -- but it's a thought to consider, that you being positive and encouraging might be either too intense or too invalidating for her at this point in time.

I know that at the end the day, getting better is both on her and up to her.  I can't control that.  I can't make it happen.  But I would welcome ideas on how I might be able to support her in this time left.  How to talk to perhaps lower her anxiety or create a chance for something better to bloom again.

While I'm not sure you are fundamentally in control of the levers to pull to lower her anxiety, it's still true that we can inadvertently make things worse out of our best intentions.

I wonder if you might see a difference if instead of focusing on encouraging her to get better/improve herself, you shifted focus slightly onto:

having neutral-to-positive interactions about "no strings attached" content (i.e., not about "our dog" but about "look at this other cute dog story")

Basically, instead of talking about the relationship/talking about the issues, doing the relating differently for a while -- taking the pressure off.

Again, I'm not the expert on her or on you -- I'm sitting behind a computer screen far away. I'd be interested, though, if any of that seems relevant to you.

[Outdorenthusiast]

Walking,

I hear that this is very painful - and yes, we love them - just not what they do or how it makes us feel.  My wife has CPTSD, anxiety, depression, ADHD, uBPD, and I could go on and on.

Since you are on the bettering board - I can tell you that CPTSD has many similarities so your gut feel is not far off the mark.  The same tools can apply and they work well.  What I can share is CPTSD (childhood sexual abuse/verbal abuse/emotional abuse etc) can be definitely cured/managed well with proper CBT counseling and EMDR and can be life changing.  It is a big investment of time and money - but I have seen huge differences after 2 years of her weekly therapy.  She has substantially less triggers, rages, massive depressive episodes, splitting, projection, and is far less anxious.  She told me it is like going from level 8 of 10 stress level down to a level 2.  However my wife said it is very painful emotionally as traumatic disassociation memories that have been blocked are pulled up to reprogram.  She explained that it is is necessary because a bad issue from the past is causing a negative response today that is unwarranted.

Key is - it won’t work if you make her go.  She has to do it on her own to take control of her life.  My wife swears by it and is super glad she has gone through the painful process.  It was rough for 18 months though.

Outdoor

[WalkingInRain]

Hey everyone, sorry for the silence.  My job decided to go a bit wild for a bit just to add to the mix and I hadn't really had the chance to catch my breath until the last few days.

Things with my wife got better for a little bit, then had a fight when I showed some frustration over her "vanishing" behavior that she was repeating again.  It reset us back into this unstable state.

I think the bigger issue is that I'm coming to realize I really have some wounds from this relationship now going on so many years.  Like that fight and frustration wasn't that big of a deal, but just to be seeing it happen again.  It tore at me.

We meet today to discuss the future.  And even as I tried to keep it to an even, "it'll be okay" it went back to the extremes several times.  From we're going to work it out, to we're ending it.  That's almost part for course at this point.  She did one of her "I'm going to abandon everything and leave" arguments which has been her usual threat to burn down our lives for years now.

I think the point I am trying to make is...I love her but I am so tired of this I don't know how to feel if I still care.  I do care.  I know I do.  But I'm so exhausted that it's hard to feel like I still do.

Several of things from the fight were old hat.  One moment she's saying honestly that she loves me and knows how hard we tried together through love, and in the next breath "it's all your fault and you completely failed me".  It's enough to make your head spin around and around just in minutes.  There is a perverse part of me that would love to have had a recording that could allow me to sit down and count the number of times she would constantly switch her positions.

Honestly I know it's just because she was swinging between her emotions.  I get it.  Intellectually.  But emotionally I still feel like I've been run over by a truck, then backed over, and then run over again a few times.

We ended the conversation with deciding to take a week of no contact to decide what we both want to do.  At the end I said I wanted us to continue but....even then and even more now, I don't know anymore.

Like here's the thing, if I knew she was willing to get help, therapy for herself and for us as a couple, I'd be all in.  But I already know that even though she has talked to a therapist in the last 60 days, she has so far refused to go back for a second session.

I'm willing to be here for her if she wants to work on recovery.  But I'm not willing to stay to be here to be her villain and be her emotional dumping ground.

I guess that's my line.  I can hold to it.  I know my life will be okay if we end it (our previous separation earlier this year showed that to me).  But I still love her and I do want to make it work.  But it takes two to tango.  Two to make it all happen.

-Walking

[WalkingInRain]

Hi WalkingInRain;

It makes sense that however this relationship turns out (repair, parting ways, etc), you'd want to find tools and skills to navigate the next few months in the most effective way possible. That's definitely why the "Bettering" board is here.

Is that your anxiety, or hers?

That's hers.  While I have my moments, it's rare and usually tied to a specific trigger.  Hers tends to be more general consuming.

If you were to break down the subject matter of your communications with her, what % would you give to each of the following:

-her issues
-the relationship
-encouraging/supporting her
-logistics (finances, housing, etc)
-neutral low key no-investment topics (cute pictures, positive news stories, etc)
-other (let me know if I missed guessing the most common topics)

I might be getting this wrong but I think it matches the "avoidance" I've been experiencing so much with her.

-her issues - 5%
-the relationship - 10%
-encouraging/support her - 20%
-logistics - 20%
-neutral - 20%
-other - 25%

Gut feeling is it's actually making sense to me that she's withdrawing/minimizing in relationship to your encouragement/support. It might be too emotionally intense for her at the moment, and rather than lash out at you to get you to stop poking emotional stuff (acting out), or communicating directly (high skill approach), she pulls away and shuts down (low skill but not acting out at you).

You know her best -- but it's a thought to consider, that you being positive and encouraging might be either too intense or too invalidating for her at this point in time.

While I'm not sure you are fundamentally in control of the levers to pull to lower her anxiety, it's still true that we can inadvertently make things worse out of our best intentions.

I wonder if you might see a difference if instead of focusing on encouraging her to get better/improve herself, you shifted focus slightly onto:

having neutral-to-positive interactions about "no strings attached" content (i.e., not about "our dog" but about "look at this other cute dog story")

Basically, instead of talking about the relationship/talking about the issues, doing the relating differently for a while -- taking the pressure off.

Again, I'm not the expert on her or on you -- I'm sitting behind a computer screen far away. I'd be interested, though, if any of that seems relevant to you.

I think there is some real value in the suggestions you are making but it also may at this point just be too late.  Not trying to negative, but I'm so exhausted it's just hard.  Like I'm tired of the limbo.  Tired of waiting.  Tired of being the villain in the life of the person who I love the most in this world.  Tired to have all these years of sacrifice turn into how I've been abusing / failing her.

-Walking

[WalkingInRain]

Walking,

I hear that this is very painful - and yes, we love them - just not what they do or how it makes us feel.  My wife has CPTSD, anxiety, depression, ADHD, uBPD, and I could go on and on.

Since you are on the bettering board - I can tell you that CPTSD has many similarities so your gut feel is not far off the mark.  The same tools can apply and they work well.  What I can share is CPTSD (childhood sexual abuse/verbal abuse/emotional abuse etc) can be definitely cured/managed well with proper CBT counseling and EMDR and can be life changing.  It is a big investment of time and money - but I have seen huge differences after 2 years of her weekly therapy.  She has substantially less triggers, rages, massive depressive episodes, splitting, projection, and is far less anxious.  She told me it is like going from level 8 of 10 stress level down to a level 2.  However my wife said it is very painful emotionally as traumatic disassociation memories that have been blocked are pulled up to reprogram.  She explained that it is is necessary because a bad issue from the past is causing a negative response today that is unwarranted.

Key is - it won’t work if you make her go.  She has to do it on her own to take control of her life.  My wife swears by it and is super glad she has gone through the painful process.  It was rough for 18 months though.

Outdoor

I have zero interest in making her go to therapy.  But I also have zero interest in continuing in this pattern where I am her villain / escape goat so she doesn't actually have to face her problems.  It feels like that has been the case for years now.  I didn't understand it at the time.  I wish I had.  I could have made different choices if I had at the time.

Now here we are and I really don't want to stay in limbo anymore.  No more.  Even at the point of things ending.

-Walking

[WalkingInRain]

So as I go on here about a half day since our conversation, I'm trying to put some puzzle pieces together.

First, a lot of the things she fixated on...I have to be careful about this because I don't want to gloss over things that might be truly on my head.  But a lot of things really had more to do with her family history.  Not going to share details ever - won't violate her privacy here.  But there was abuse growing up.  Home, safety, and relationship toxicity were issues.  And those things she brought up multiple times.  And they are all things that haven't been part of our relationship.  Ever since I learned of them, I've worked to avoid having them ever be part of our lives.  Yet those were still the things she brought up.  I'm not sure now if this is a miss on my part (it could be) or if this had little to do with what I actually did and a lot more of her unprocessed trauma coloring her perceptions of the wold.

Second, there were some things she that sounded like relationship "threats" that actually were positive things in my view.  Going to be light in details again to not cross a line, but she said how now her relationship with her family is so much better and now she has friends who aren't trying to use her.  And soon she will be able to pay for everything herself.

She didn't say this directly but the silent part seemed to be "so I don't need you and you can't keep me trapped".  And my thought was this is great!  I want you to have a good relationship with your family.  I want you to have friends who support you.  I want you to be able to support yourself / our family.  And I don't want to control you, I want you as a partner who I can support and who supports me.

But as I have been processing....I'm wondering if this is all lies to make me feel like I have no value to her.  An effort to make me feel I have to give more and more because everything I do give already (emotional support, financial safety, etc) her has no value anymore.

Her relationship with her family has been toxic for 30 years.  Her friend group I think actually has improved a lot, so that is awesome, but in the past it was folk who were using her.  And honestly one of the struggles that has been going on for a long while now is how she hasn't been able to hold a job for longer than a few weeks for much of the last 10 years.  Usually due to her anxiety coming in and her getting upset and leaving the job.

I'm also struggling with all this mixed messaging.  I know she love me.  I know she does.  But also the messaging, and I feel it too, that I don't matter to her.  I know that's likely just an emotional distancing that she is doing to protect herself.  That it likely has nothing to do with me.  But it still hurts.

-Walking