Deciding whether to remain

[Chitowndad]

Hi all,

I'm a first-time poster, and I appreciate the advice of this community.

My wife has what I believe to be undiagnosed BPD (this is clear to me from years of bizarrely flying off the handle, never-ending apology sessions that are never enough, seemingly endless anger and blame toward me for things that seem innocuous, constant need for affirmation/empathy/tending to no matter how much time I dedicate toward affirmation/empathy/tending to her, and anger at others for not validating her enough or not agreeing with her). We have a beautiful little girl together, who's almost 4. Some of my calmest times are when I'm just solo parenting our daughter.

About two months ago, things became unbearable, there was a second or third incident of her recklessly driving (which, of course, was my fault for not apologizing adequately for this or that), and our couple's therapist and her own therapist prodded her to get into an intensive outpatient program. After 2 conversations with her where she was reluctant to do so, and after getting screamed at for failing to do something that would have made our relationship 'right,' I had lawyers draw up divorce papers, and said that I was ready to file.

She responded that she would get into a treatment program, and we quickly found one. The first didn't work out (after a few weeks, another reckless driving episode, and a botched family therapy session, they wanted her to be there for even more time than she was comfortable with), and the second is somewhat promising. There's no diagnosis of BPD that I know of -- depression and prolonged grief disorder. I don't think the new therapists have a clear sense of the gravity of the issues, but she's connecting with the program. Unclear if there will be a family therapy component, and it remains to be seen how that may change the dynamic.

The fixation for blame now is that I haven't fully acknowledged and accepted responsibility for how I 'made' her go into some of the above episodes, and that I haven't apologized for contacting an attorney to draw up documents without first having a conversation with her about it. By doing so, I'm responsible for her pain. I was at my wits end, and to be honest, I don't regret it. At the suggestion of my new therapist, and other reading material, it's time to stop apologizing for things that I did to take care of myself and our daughter and to stop taking the bait of the apology sessions.

There has been some improvement in behavior from her sessions -- some better respect of boundaries (i.e. eventually letting me go to sleep at night and/or not intentionally waking me up during the night, fewer harassing calls/texts while I'm at work), but it's still quite rough. And it seems like every ounce of free oxygen when not parenting and doing my job is taken up by endless analysis of how I haven't done enough to support her, how my refusal to apologize is setting back her treatment, how others (like my mom) haven't done enough to support her or are ganging up on her (my parents have let me and/or my daughter sleep there when things are bad, and my mom has graciously and patiently talked to her on the phone for long periods to help calm her down while I'm there -- my mom's 'failure' was not to continue answering my wife's barrage of phone calls).

At any rate, despite this progress, I don't think there's still ownership that this is a 'her' problem, and it's really difficult for me when she comes back from treatment with more analysis of where I just need to be better to support her (all of the skills she learned in therapy about how I can improve our relationship), that I'm inhibiting her progress, and that if I only had done this or that it wouldn't be so bad. It seems like no matter how much amount of empathy, hugs, messages of 'you can do it!' and 'I'm proud of you!' will be sufficient.

Do I owe it to this person, who is in treatment for something and who has some improvement in behavior (if not the distortions), to maintain my patience and to keep riding this all-consuming ride? What I can reasonably expect here?

[PeteWitsend]

...

Do I owe it to this person, who is in treatment for something and who has some improvement in behavior (if not the distortions), to maintain my patience and to keep riding this all-consuming ride? What I can reasonably expect here?

Hi @Chitowndad, and welcome. 

I think you are in a similar situation and mindset as I was, earlier in my marriage (I am now divorced). 

The first question is something only you can really answer; you need to consider what you feel is fair and warranted I suppose, but in the end, it's your decision and you have to make it and live with it.  I don't get the sense you have co-dependency issues, like some people who phrase this question as "How do I get my BPD partner to agree to a divorce?" and the answer is: you don't.  They're never going to agree to a divorce.  Decide what you want and go do that.  And if you have kids, decide what's in the best interest of your kids.

So I think you need to look at it that way.  Is staying together with this person - who is and will continue to make your life all about caretaking her needs in the moment, even at the expense of your kids' needs - the right decision for you and your kids?  Maybe it is right now.  Maybe it's not.

I'll share my experience here: For the longest time, the only thing that kept me in the relationship was my daughter, and concerns for what BPDxw would do if we divorced, and whether my daughter's needs would be met.  As time went on (my daughter was 4 when I moved out and filed), I began to see that BPDxw could not stop herself from fighting in front of our daughter, and insulting me and saying really awful stuff about me as well.  I didn't want my daughter to grow up thinking it was normal to live like this, or tolerate that kind of behavior from your spouse.  Granted, if I got divorced, I wouldn't be there to shield her from that from her mom when she was with her, but at least I'd be able to provide a safe, quiet, environment the ~40% of the time she was with me.  And that was better in my opinion than having that be 100% of the time if I stayed in that relationship. 

After talking to an attorney and understanding the lay of the land, I drew a line in the sand (mentally) along which I would not tolerate any more of her abuse, or apologize and "take partial responsibility for HER behavior" and move on, as had become our usual routine after she picked one of her blow-out, dramatic fights over something.  Then when (predictably) that happened, I moved out and filed for divorce.  She had gotten used to the pattern, and was shocked in the end when I actually did it (ironically, she had told me "we're getting divorced then" when I refused to "apologize" for causing her behavior in that blow up). 

As far as what you can reasonably expect: I think given the record among people on this board, "more of the same" is what you can reasonably expect.  Your wife is in panic mode, given that divorce is on the table and she's been given an ultimatum.  I think you'll find she'll agree to whatever in the moment to get out of that situation.  But once she feels the threat has passed and you've backed down, the same behavior that lead you there will recur. 

In my own situation, we nearly got divorced a full year before I actually moved out and filed for divorce.  At the time, I decided I didn't want to go through with it, and backed down.  She was begging me to reconsider, and promising to get help for herself and work on herself in therapy.  That lasted about a couple days.  Once she felt secure again, as in "He won't actually file for divorce after backing down, because he'd look ridiculous and unstable" she was saying things like it was all my fault, and I was just an emotional person for even thinking divorce was a possibility.  We continued along for another year, before I eventually did call her bluff, move out and file after she threatened it again.

[Chitowndad]

Thank you so much for your reply, @PeteWitsend
For background, was your spouse in treatment?

What's hard to tell is what's a reasonable expectation for both a spouse's behavior and her/his distortions after an intensive outpatient program. To her credit, she takes the program seriously, knows that she needs help (which, to her, is just about dealing with her grief and regulating herself) -- what's troubling is how she comes back from this and the endless validation sessions carry on (maybe even more than before), plus she's also equipped with notes about how, if I improved on this or that communication style she's learning in her program, then maybe things wouldn't have gotten so bad. And requiring assurances that she wasn't a monster to me for so long, and that at least some of that was justified. Or, if she was abusive to me, then I should be able to admit that, when I got angry at her, that was abusive to her, of course. Or, if I'm allowed to get angry eventually, then why isn't she?

I honestly don't know how to make it through another month or so of this stuff (after so long of dealing with a worsening situation), and which is so completely consuming, but it's helpful to know what might be on the other side, although of course I imagine that that varies widely from person to person.

To your comment about my own co-dependency, I think you're right - the idea of being out on my own and creating a place of calm for myself and daughter (for as much time as I can be with her) sounds like a beautiful thing rather than a source of dread. I'm frequently caring for her on my own amidst all of the treatment logistics and have confidence in my ability to be a good, loving dad and calm human being if only I can create that space. I've had weeks of solo parenting for her in the past while my spouse was out of town, and while just doing the normalcy of life (work, exercise, being with her, being with friends and family), and it's a beautiful thing.

Thanks for the support.

[ForeverDad]

If you browse through my replies you'll see a few common threads, or "truisms", that make observations of typical patterns and outcomes.

For example, is it BPD?
We've spent years, sometimes decades, with our spouses.  We've "been there, experienced that".  So although we are not "trained experts" as the court and mental health systems would insist upon, still we have volumes of experience that cannot and should not be ignored.  My experience was similar to most reported here, my family court and the experts surrounding the courts studiously avoided any references to serious mental health concerns such as Borderline PD, an acting-out personality disorder.  Why?  The consensus is that divorce or family court is there to "referee" the unwinding of the adult relationship and if there are children then also issuance of orders for custody and parenting schedules.  What they do NOT do is try to "fix" the adults.  It treats them as they are, ushering them through the system to undo the adult relationship.  That's why most of us never hear of a meaningful diagnosis, unless one already exists or there is a history of documented hospitalizations, evaluations, etc.

Another example, how vital is therapy as an indicator of outcomes?
Suspected BPD traits include persistent Denial, Projection, Blaming and Blame Shifting, among others.  So it is not surprising that those of us whose marriages did fail almost always had spouses who refused meaningful therapy.  (Mine refused counseling back then and apparently never did.)

Our spouses do have the right as adults to refuse counseling or therapy.  If that happens in your case, then Accept that reality and review your options.  The other person's refusal to seek recovery does not mean you can't ponder how you can use time-tested strategies to seek practical solutions and time-tested strategies to both protect yourself and also protect your parenting.  Even if the marriage does fail, divorce is a court process where you can prepare yourself and your parenting to survive and even thrive.

[PeteWitsend]

Thank you so much for your reply, @PeteWitsend
For background, was your spouse in treatment?

No, but after a particularly bad Xmas season one year, I told her she needed therapy or counseling, because that was way out of line.  She had calmed down by this point (it was literally two weeks of fighting straight through xmas days), surprisingly agreed to my request, and found a therapist.  After a few sessions, she started telling me he (the T) said she was "fine" and there was "nothing wrong with [her]."  That was pretty much it. 

We went to marital/couples counseling a couple times before and after that.  I've written about my experience and thoughts on that several times, most recently on this thread (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=3059871.0), you can read those. 

I'll add: she always tried to find male counselors.  She once told me that she had an easier time getting men to do what she wanted.  The one time I chose the counselor, I deliberately picked a woman, and XW lasted only 2 or 3 sessions before she was screaming at the counselor. 

For as conniving as she was, she often gave away her "tricks" like that, or showed her hand.  I guess she wasn't as sneaky as she wanted to believe, or else wanted me to think she was.  In every case, I came away more and more convinced I was in a relationship with a complete sociopath. 

What's hard to tell is what's a reasonable expectation for both a spouse's behavior and her/his distortions after an intensive outpatient program. To her credit, she takes the program seriously, knows that she needs help (which, to her, is just about dealing with her grief and regulating herself) -- what's troubling is how she comes back from this and the endless validation sessions carry on (maybe even more than before), plus she's also equipped with notes about how, if I improved on this or that communication style she's learning in her program, then maybe things wouldn't have gotten so bad. And requiring assurances that she wasn't a monster to me for so long, and that at least some of that was justified. Or, if she was abusive to me, then I should be able to admit that, when I got angry at her, that was abusive to her, of course. Or, if I'm allowed to get angry eventually, then why isn't she?

...

I think you'll find they view therapy not as an opportunity to learn about themselves and grow, but as just another blame-shifting opportunity.  If they have a therapist that calls them out and pins them down when they get avoidant, they'll just stop going to that therapist.

pwBPD are also good at learning the lingo and spitting it back at you.  So watch out for that.  If you hear some odd word, expect that she read it on a forum online, or her therapist told her not to do it.

To your comment about my own co-dependency, I think you're right - the idea of being out on my own and creating a place of calm for myself and daughter (for as much time as I can be with her) sounds like a beautiful thing rather than a source of dread. I'm frequently caring for her on my own amidst all of the treatment logistics and have confidence in my ability to be a good, loving dad and calm human being if only I can create that space. I've had weeks of solo parenting for her in the past while my spouse was out of town, and while just doing the normalcy of life (work, exercise, being with her, being with friends and family), and it's a beautiful thing.

Thanks for the support.

No problem.  I hate what I went through, and although I can't go back in time and change it, if I can help others through their own struggles, even just with moral support, it makes me feel a little better.

I went through the same thing.  After a couple years, I looked forward to times without BPDxw there, even if it meant I was solely responsible for my kids needs.  I ended up doing more than my share of the house work and child rearing anyway (given that she was a stay-at-home mom for most of our marriage), and so if I had to do a little more because she wasn't there, it was more than worth it for the opportunity for peace and quiet, and enjoyment of time with the kids.  Couldn't do that if I was constantly on edge that she'd get upset over something absurd, and throw a proverbial bomb into our day

[PeteWitsend]

...

So I think you need to look at it that way.  Is staying together with this person - who is and will continue to make your life all about caretaking her needs in the moment, even at the expense of your kids' needs - the right decision for you and your kids?  Maybe it is right now.  Maybe it's not.

...

I meant to add that it almost goes without saying that I also didn't like the way BPDxw was treating me, and this is enough of a reason to leave someone, even if you have kids together.

I wasn't trying to say I based my entire decision to leave on what was good for my daughter.  I was actually ready to leave long before I did, but I stayed out of concern for her wellbeing.  As time went on, I came to the conclusion that because she was old enough to know what was going on, there was more harm in exposing her to conflict than there was a benefit to staying together to make sure her immediate needs were met. 

[c0nfusedandsad]

Hi @chitowndad, I'm wondering if you have an update on your situation. I'm dealing with something very similar with my BPD husband who is starting an outpatient program in a few weeks. Did your wife find the outpatient program beneficial?

[Chitowndad]

Hi all,

First, @c0nfusedandsad, I am so sorry for not replying to your post, which I didn't see until today (I'm not sure if there's a way to get notification sent to me when a new post comes in). I hope that you've been hanging in there, and if your situation is remotely like mine, then you've been on an awful ride that you're probably very ready to get off. Since that original post, it was kind of a nightmare, and I almost upped and divorced a couple of times, only to be convinced by her and family to at least see her through her treatment.

As an update here, my spouse finished her intensive outpatient program. There is progress in her ability to regulate herself -- she has skills that she brings in to help her even herself out. Sessions that might have otherwise gone deep into the middle of the night might get cut off at a still-too-late, but more reasonable time. There might be less of a demand that I'm tending to her into the next day to do everything I can to make her feel right, less harassment while I'm at work, and thank G-d we haven't had an incident of reckless driving in quite some time.

What bothers me a great deal, though, is that I feel like a lot of the underlying issues are still there and are held in abeyance. From time to time they surface explicitly (e.g. anger at me for not taking the 'high road' while she was in treatment and leaving the home to sleep at my parents' house, or still some anger at me for originally seeking out divorce). There are still minor disagreements, sometimes around parenting, that rapidly escalate from 0 to 10, where me simply stating my position is viewed as disrespect or demeaning, and instead of talking about whatever the disagreement is, it turns into a victimization session and demands to apologize for this or that. The need that I tend to her and that, even if I'm checking in or doing this or that to see how she's doing, it's not adequately tending to her trauma, making her feel whole, validating her, etc. The triggers remain and the unfillable cup still remains.

Last, and for which I seek this community's guidance, I decided once and for all, to get a divorce. Despite the progress, these underlying perception problems still plague us. I brought in the lawyers, I told my parents, I told family, and I decided on a particular time that I would break the news. And I did -- she lobbied my parents and her dad, and ultimately there was a 'family meeting' for me, my parents, and her dad. Her dad, being her mouthpiece (and a lawyer himself) became the one who sounded like the reasonable voice in the room and advocated that we try more couples therapy and that we give at least another month before I do anything so drastic. Even though we had months and months of couples therapy, we only had a couple of sessions after she finished her program. He and she argued that I haven't really given couples therapy a true shot since she finished her program. I remain convinced (both from the structure of couple's therapy and from conversation with my own therapist) that these remaining issues aren't really couple's therapy problems, but ones that reflect her putting the responsibility for her own pain onto me.

My parents, whose support I'm going to need throughout this process, understand how badly I've wanted to get out, but they ended up supporting what sounded like a modest position to take -- just try it a little bit more, one more month, and see. I'm furious at them actually because I feel like I have worked so hard to get to the point of taking this definitive action, getting myself out of a relationship that has been so challenging and tempestuous, and they pulled me back down by the feet as I was trying to climb out.

At any rate, I agreed to two more weeks (and at least a couple more couple's therapy sessions in there) before doing anything further. I returned home so exhausted and emotionally confused. How am I supposed to be at home during this time? Should I be the loving husband, trying to open up again to my wife, to give this a real shot? But my 'switch' has also flipped, and I've decided, firmly, that I don't want to be here any more. My wife has been great over the past couple of days, being kind and easy-going, taking care of things for Father's Day, but I also don't believe it -- this will likely continue for the next couple of weeks until the decision-making point arrives again. Then if I decide to go ahead with divorce, I'll be the unreasonable one -- everything was going so well, so why would you leave? I'm frustrated and upset, and feel undermined. But I also know that this is marathon, not a sprint, and I need to accept minor setbacks. Thoughts are appreciated, and feel free to let me know if I'm being the asshole too and need to give couple's therapy more of a shot.

[Chitowndad]

To elaborate a little more on this 'family meeting,' so much of the push was from my father-in-law, who threw on the guilt about how I would want to be able to tell my daughter when she's older that I did everything I could, and that couple's therapy can take many months, even years, to bear fruit, so why wouldn't I try to do that, if not for my wife than for my daughter? And how could I be so arrogant not to think that it will help us here?

[ForeverDad]

My now-ex and I never had couple's therapy so I can't speak from experience.  Yet it has the goal to find a way to repair a relationship, in hopes of it becoming manageable if not also positive.

What can be separate from that is each spouse's need for individual counseling or therapy.  If the marriage is failing then each counselor would then seek the client's best interests in an objective way.

In the end, whether an adult relationship continues or it fails is a personal decision.  Thus you would need to be objective in considering all the factors that involve your spouse, any children, future parenting, etc.  To a lesser extent, the relatives too.

In my case, my family life had deteriorated to the point that my then-spouse was threatening to disappear with our preschooler and I decided to place being an involved father as a higher priority than continuing a hurtful and dysfunctional marriage.

[Under The Bridge]

Do I owe it to this person, who is in treatment for something and who has some improvement in behavior (if not the distortions), to maintain my patience and to keep riding this all-consuming ride? What I can reasonably expect here?

Even if you were to buy into the guilt-tripping and get down on bended knees, admit everything is caused by your 'failure' and swear you'll try harder, you know that she'll simply come up with another 10 new reasons why you've 'failed her' tomorrow.  This is the nature of BPD; nothing will ever satisfy them as they're on an endless cycle which won't decrease without treatment, and a willingness to be treated.

If she has undertaken treatment and is showing improvement then of course it's worth staying with - but it's important to maintain strong boundaries to show you won't tolerate her blaming you for everything. The fact she backed down when you took decisive action and started divorce papers shows that she can  be deterred from her actions if you stand up to her.