As The End Of My 30 Year Marriage, Worried About Spouse

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hello it’s been awhile since I’ve posted. The end of my divorce is (hopefully) drawing near. My wife is not formally contesting the divorce though I suppose that may change. Talks about the end of the marriage don’t go well. She becomes threatening about what she plans to tell the kids. At one point in another conversation she blocked me from leaving.a room.

She goes on and on about how she’s been scapegoated, how she needs saving. She cries almost very day.

I realize that I have a codependent tie-in here, that I am being emotionally blackmailed and manipulated. But she’s the mother of my kids. Im not staying in the marriage but what can be done? She got doctors or therapists for depression, perimenopause/ hormone issues, a psychiatrist. But she still cries every day.

By not cleanly breaking this off I am probably making this worse for her. But what help is there for someone in her position? What happens? I don’t k ow what to do or what can be done.

[AlleyOop23]

Hello it’s been awhile since I’ve posted. The end of my divorce is (hopefully) drawing near. My wife is not formally contesting the divorce though I suppose that may change. Talks about the end of the marriage don’t go well. She becomes threatening about what she plans to tell the kids. At one point in another conversation she blocked me from leaving.a room.

She goes on and on about how she’s been scapegoated, how she needs saving. She cries almost very day.

I realize that I have a codependent tie-in here, that I am being emotionally blackmailed and manipulated. But she’s the mother of my kids. Im not staying in the marriage but what can be done? She got doctors or therapists for depression, perimenopause/ hormone issues, a psychiatrist. But she still cries every day.

By not cleanly breaking this off I am probably making this worse for her. But what help is there for someone in her position? What happens? I don’t k ow what to do or what can be done.

[Pook075]

By not cleanly breaking this off I am probably making this worse for her. But what help is there for someone in her position? What happens? I don’t know what to do or what can be done.

First of all, its commendable that even on the brink of divorce, you still care enough to ask these questions.  I felt the same way and had the same worries.

For BPDs, everything is emotional and reactive...you did this so she's forced to feel that.  And divorce in general is tough on everyone, it's tearing a family apart and nobody likes that.  So it's not a surprise that she's overly emotional right now and struggling.

However, please understand that the problems you faced in your marriage are precisely what keeps her from getting real treatment and committing to change.  If it's your fault, then it's not her fault.  It's so easy to think that way when mental illness is involved (sometimes even when it's not).  So she's going to have to stand on her own moving forward, without you to play the rescuer role whenever she's playing the victim. 

She HAS TO adjust to that and she will, likely by finding someone else to take your place.  Maybe it's a friend, maybe it's a romantic interest, that part doesn't matter.  She will fill that void somewhere though and discover her new normal...or she'll take therapy seriously and stand on her own.

Either way, you're not in control anymore and you are powerless towards what she tells the kids, the neighbors, etc.  My advice is to let her do whatever she wants to do, while you focus on the kids and their best interests.  Don't fight fire with fire, those days are coming to an end.  Be the bigger parent and do the best you can to move into the next stages of your life.

As far as the relationship with your wife goes, it's impossible to say what that will look like.  Some here see scorched Earth, while I had a very mild experience.  My ex and I are friends again and on speaking terms...that's best case scenario if possible.  But if not, you'll use the courts as needed to find suitable parenting solutions for both of you.

The only other thing I can add is not to stress over this- so much of it is outside your control.  And that's okay, focus on being the best you possible.  That will help you deal with whatever comes from her side.

[AlleyOop23]

Thank you. I cried a little reading that. I worry she will actually hurt herself. At the same time I don’t think she could do that to her kids. In my gut I k lw you’re right.

[zachira]

You care deeply about your children's mother and want her to be alright because this would be what is best for everybody even though you are getting divorced. The challenge is perhaps caring more than your children's mother does about her well being. This can trigger her not doing what she has to do to accept the divorce. This principle applies to working with anybody whether it is our child or an adult having serious mental health issues. It is like when we want something more for them than they do than they don't feel motivated.
It sounds like you are seeing your wife all the time. Can you possibly decrease the amount of time you are around her or are you too worried what she might do that could be harmful to both herself and the children?

[EyesUp]

Hello Alley,

Can you expand a bit on the current situation?  If I recall correctly, you're separated, i.e., no longer cohabitating?  What are the occasions for you to be together in which she can prevent you from leaving a room?  Can you take care to avoid being in this situation?

Also, what are the specific threats in regard to the kids?  Unfortunately, I fear that if she's made the threat, it's likely that she's already taken action in some way.  This is the cousin of "accusations are confessions" - i.e., "warnings are confessions"...

How are the kids doing in general?

[Notwendy]

It's understandable that you are concerned about your soon to be ex with BPD. Concern about my BPD mother was a focus in my family. Consider though- you have put 30 years of care and focus into this marriage- has it helped her BPD? At the moment, it's her hormones, but before that- it was something else that she perceived as the cause of her issues.

Divorce is stressful for anyone. It's a change for you and for her. Of course you each will have feelings about it, but you have decided this is the best course for you. Your stbx has BPD in either situation.

When my father passed away, we had similar worries about my BPD mother. Since he was her emotional caretaker and did so much for her, we thought she'd not manage at all. We also feared self harm. There was still dysfunction, but she managed better than we expected she would. There were more issues as she got older- related to aging, but she was more resilient than we expected. Since you have been co-dependent on your wife- you don't know how she might manage on her own. Hopefully your fears won't happen, and also she may even surprise you by doing better than you think.

Your support and attention has been on your wife. But 30 years of helping her has not changed her BPD. You've also probably neglected your own needs and been stretched in terms of attention to your children. It's possible that the best way to "help" here is to help your children become self sufficient adults as they grow up, and for you to be at your emotional best.

Your wife may possibly find another husband and you may possibly find another wife one day, but to your kids- the constant is that you and your wife are always going to be their parents. Whether you stayed together or not, your kids have a mother with BPD. She's going to say or do whatever she chooses, regardless- you can't control what she says to the kids. You can control your part in this- be the stable parent. Your kids need you to be at your emotional best. They will adjust too- with your support.

[Pook075]

Thank you. I cried a little reading that. I worry she will actually hurt herself. At the same time I don’t think she could do that to her kids. In my gut I k lw you’re right.

No problem, and I'm sorry this is so stinking hard.  You will get through this though, and your soon to be ex wife and kids will as well.  Just take one day at a time, keep things in perspective, and remember that your mental health comes first.

Praying for you my friend!

[AlleyOop23]

We got the kids a dog. Best and worst idea of my life. Kids are delighted. Wife using the puppy to manipulate the hell out of me. I got stuck in a room with her because she had a function, one of my kids was not yet comfortable being alone with the dog. I “babysat” the dog. When she got home I got stuck. Kids were in bed asleep. I’m over there more because of the damn dog.

The threats are ‘Lean into loving me and healing or I’ll litigate a scorched earth campaign” or “ we can’t afford their schools and activities so I’m canceling them all and telling them it’s your fault”

When I moved out I thought she’d litigate aggressively. I’ve always been ready for that and there’s nothing I can do. As for all the cancellations she can’t actually do that unilaterally and I’ll Stickhandle that tho I think it’s just talk.  Veiled talk about self harm ‘icant take it, I can’t go on’ but hinge like that.



The point to me is only making threats of any kind.

[AlleyOop23]

The dog can’t be left alone yet. He’s a different breed than I had before. I didn’t see that one coming.

[PeteWitsend]

We got the kids a dog. Best and worst idea of my life. Kids are delighted. Wife using the puppy to manipulate the hell out of me. I got stuck in a room with her because she had a function, one of my kids was not yet comfortable being alone with the dog. I “babysat” the dog. When she got home I got stuck. Kids were in bed asleep. I’m over there more because of the damn dog.

The threats are ‘Lean into loving me and healing or I’ll litigate a scorched earth campaign” or “ we can’t afford their schools and activities so I’m canceling them all and telling them it’s your fault”

When I moved out I thought she’d litigate aggressively. I’ve always been ready for that and there’s nothing I can do. As for all the cancellations she can’t actually do that unilaterally and I’ll Stickhandle that tho I think it’s just talk.  Veiled talk about self harm ‘icant take it, I can’t go on’ but hinge like that.



The point to me is only making threats of any kind.

It helps to stop listening to them, or at least to their reasoning. 

pwBPD are so emotionally manipulative and dodgy when it comes to the truth, that you can't trust anything they say.

Focus on objective facts, and disregard pleas to emotion or "editorials," i.e. subjective claims about how they're feeling, what you did, who you are, etc.

[PeteWitsend]

The dog can’t be left alone yet. He’s a different breed than I had before. I didn’t see that one coming.

Arrrrgh.  This is painful to read.  You need to take a step back from this situation and start drawing some boundaries here, or you're going to stay just as entwined with her life as you were when you were married.

or as my daughter's therapist joked "You didn't get your money's worth out of the divorce."

[Notwendy]

Can you find a solution to the dog situation? Can dog be at your place? How about a college student or mature high school student to dog sit? There is also doggy day care. Once you are divorced, someone will need to help with the dog at times. It doesn't have to be you. Plenty of single people have dogs- and if they are out of town, or have a long day- they get someone to attend to the dog.

I don't know the road not taken. My parents stayed together. However, there were still threats, scorched earth at times, and BPD mother would tell us things about my father. Stay or not- you can't be with her 100% of the time to try to control this- you have a job, you have things to do. She's going to be alone with them at times one way or the other.

It's understandable that you are anxious. You know what is familiar, and you have chosen something different- and you don't know what is ahead of you. But you chose this because of what is going on now and you don't want to be in this situation either.

Same for your stbx- being divorced is an unknown too. If we consider that BPD behaviors are dysfunctional coping mechanisms, you can expect these behaviors to increase.

Even when there's divorce- you two will have a relationship as parents. This is still going to require boundaries on your part. Your wife's emotional needs won't change, at least for now and it seems she is leaning on you. Maybe one day if she meets someone else- they will step into that role. How much you can have her lean on you requires boundaries on your part.

This is difficult. It's like the bridge story:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=65164.0;all

But from my own experience- the threats, the acting out, the saying things to the kids- it happened with parents that stayed together too. These are difficult choices but you have made the one you feel is the better one for your situation.

[zachira]

One of the biggest challenges of limiting the contact with a disordered person is we are often the ones who go to therapy to learn how to set the necessary boundaries with the disordered person. Oftentimes we ask, why am I the one doing all the soul searching and why am I spending so many hours in therapy when I am not the person with the serious mental health disorder?

Perhaps you cannot keep the dog if this is what your soon to be ex uses as a primary tool to see more of you. It will be a disappointment for the children to lose the dog or perhaps not, if the dog is her primary tool for the children to witness more and more disruption to their lives as their mother becomes extremely dysregulated when you are around, or is she just as dysregulated when you are not around?

[AlleyOop23]

I’ve got the dog just about figured with doggy day care and some neighborhood resources. I’m very effective in other parts of my life! He needed to get a little older, all of his shots and a little more potty trained

[EyesUp]

When my X and I were still cohabitating, she accused me of abusing our dog, and threatened to tell the kids I abused the dog.

Later, after we separated, she asked me to help watch the dog that she had frequently accused me of abusing...

See where I'm going with this?

3 years later, what's changed?  I'm no longer activated by her threats, accusations, or various other modes of engagement to get whatever is that she feels she needs - attention, validation, etc.

One area where I still have work to do pertains to the kids and coparenting. And let's face it: Even parenting in married home where no BPD is present can be challenging.

Unfortunately when co-parenting or parallel-parenting with a disordered X, we need to remain alert and somewhat vigilant. However, the "walking on eggshells" dynamic can shift a bit. We're still "on guard" but we can also come to accept that it's not our job to take responsibility for X's feelings, actions, etc.

We're still playing 3D chess, thinking moves ahead, exercising constant caution - especially at kid exchanges or any time we need to interact directly - but playing with a different goal:  instead of playing to ensure X "wins" (whatever that means), we're 100% playing to ensure that the kids are in a good spot - as much as possible (and it's not always possible).

This requires some detachment but also some engagement - activating a slightly different set of mental/emotional muscles. The silver lining is:  The muscles we develop trying to navigate a relationship with a disordered partner (restraint, empathy, patience, etc.) are also needed to get through the post-divorce phase.

If the dog is a shared responsibility and transitions with the kids, you may need to become a dog whisperer so that the dog behaves well (at least in your presence).  Your kids will notice.

If the dog resides with your stbx, you may need to gracefully let her rise to the occasion of being fully responsible for the dog - or not.

I suspect that her threats about money and expenses are related to the fact that she perceives the financial changes associated with divorce, she's anxious about it, and so she's acting out and venting her emotions at you in an unproductive way - as usual.

There are so many different ways to deal with this - or avoid it entirely - it's highly personal, individual. Especially when the divorce process is still under way.

Now might be the time to have a talk with your kids about money, limits, and whatever expectations that may need to be set.  e.g., "you have nothing to worry about, and if you're ever concerned just ask..." or "as you know, things are changing - and that means that we will be doing a, b, or c a bit less or not at all" - or whatever is right for you. The point is:  You control the message rather than ceding it to mom...

Make sense?

[AlleyOop23]

Yeah that really does.  I get stuck in the next several days when I’m thinking about this and need to look past that to the future and stability and just know that some of these things will feel like crashing - I can’t control them.

[AlleyOop23]

 

This is difficult. It's like the bridge story:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=65164.0;all

Wow the bridge story brings much clarity. I may read it every morning for a while.










[/quote]

[At Bay]

Hello, your post reminds me of what my son went through 10 yrs ago when he was very unhappy in his marriage. Her mom, after seeing how his wife treated him, said she was wondering why he didn't divorce her daughter.

As it turned out, his new job to make more money had him flying to San Francisco every week, and his wife told him she would be gone if he ever strayed. Perhaps he heard his ticket out of there, and she believed that he had, and filed for divorce. For twelve yrs she had been a stay at home mom and a student.  Following graduation, she said she wanted to stay home, but would sign up to substitute teach occasionally, using her two masters degrees. Then she quickly had two little girls that I babysat until they moved to her home state to be near her parents who could babysit after my back injury. To this day, she figures out how to get what she wants.

After divorcing, she believed my son would buy her a comparable house with a pool, and she'd still work part-time. What happened was that she had to move in with her parents, or, she said, she would be on the street. Our son gave her all the equity from their house in return for not helping with prep school costs. Even before the divorce, he'd had to stop contributions to his 401k.  She found a full-time job at a Catholic school, resuming her parents' religion. Next, she used an online dating site in her religion and married a widower. Her husband has retired and found another full time job after seeing how she expects to keep spending on herself and the three girls. Our son shares custody and has a happy, new life.

[AlleyOop23]

Thank you for that story. It is so hard to unpack your other’s unconscious v conscious motivation and manipulation.

Question in terms of managing guilt -

I moved out, filed for divorce and got a restraining order (dropped after I had my own place for a bit).  She was in the middle of a depression. I tried to help her but she’d turn vicious and tell me it was my fault. Still, I knew she was depressed and wish I’d tried more, though that wish for trying is more about what I want for myself, it would have taken me moving for her to get help.

She was physically abusive and has since blamed it on perimenopause, hormonal change and depression. There’s a LOT of discussion around the internet and media about having grace for women going through perimenopause - enduring anger and outbursts- but I’ve come to see it as this - regardless of the underlying reasons I don’t see any addressing the behavior and have no reason to think it won’t recur particularly as there’s not actual accountability (there’s some remorse).

I sat down to write about the fact that she had not shared what treatment she was getting afraid I’d use it against her.  I didn’t push. Now she finally has shared she takes 13 things for depression, thyroid, estrogen loss, adhd, anxiety.  It’s not that I ever doubted she was legitimately struggling.


I guess what I sat down to ask, with enough perhaps more than needed background, was how do I square my legitimate care and concern for her struggle, evidenced to me in a new way by the sheer volume of pharmaceutical interventions, with protecting myself from abuse and manipulation and with. Y anger and hurt over how I was treated.

As a side note I feel badly about this but when I see these posts about giving your angry perimenopausal spouse a break (which posts are necessary and appropriate to help men understand a truly underaddressed major life issue for women) it just makes me angry, a feeling I honestly wish they didn’t evoke.

[ForeverDad]

In addition to the well-known The Bridge analogy was one told by one of our members (Backyard Black Hole) which I had copied onto the Bridge thread.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=65164.msg13138572#msg13138572

Remember too that when court handles a divorce, it assumes both parents are responsible for their own future lives.  You don't have to be the ex's caregiver.  You both are free afterward to go your own ways.

[Notwendy]

She was physically abusive and has since blamed it on perimenopause, hormonal change and depression. There’s a LOT of discussion around the internet and media about having grace for women going through perimenopause - enduring anger and outbursts- but I’ve come to see it as this - regardless of the underlying reasons I don’t see any addressing the behavior and have no reason to think it won’t recur particularly as there’s not actual accountability (there’s some remorse).

As a side note I feel badly about this but when I see these posts about giving your angry perimenopausal spouse a break (which posts are necessary and appropriate to help men understand a truly underaddressed major life issue for women) it just makes me angry, a feeling I honestly wish they didn’t evoke.

Well if it helps- I've experienced menopause and it didn't cause BPD behaviors. While hormone changes can affect our moods, it's not an excuse for abusive and destructive behavior. Yes, give us hormonal ladies us a break for being moody sometimes but not for abusing family members or property.

Blaming abusive behavior on something else- that is projection and not being accountable and that is an aspect of BPD. We may be grouchy and cranky sometimes but we know we are doing it. While some of us may need some pharmaceutical assistance at this time, I think it's unusual to be on as many as 13.

I didn't realize there were so many posts about trying to understand us! We must not be so fun to be around sometimes- But there's a difference between this and BPD so, you didn't "not understand enough".

[EyesUp]

@Alley,

Consider this: The allegory of the The Bridge and Wendy's comments are helpful - visualize them as two outer layers of an onion - at the center under many other layers is the issue you're facing.

What's at the center?

You probably think it's your stbx and her various behaviors now and in the past.

It's not. It's you!  

It's how you feel about her, about your kids, but mainly it's how you feel and think about yourself.

Part of your self identity seems to be that you're an exceedingly fair and caring person - like many others here. It's counter-intuitive to not help the mother of your children, who you still care for on a basic level.

And now you have new info - the pharma coctail...  

Let's step back for a minute.

I agree - I'd be activated by this sort of new info, too. It's a change. What does it mean for your stbx? What does it mean for the kids? What does it mean for the D proceedings and then the future?

However...

As you know - Part of the D process is detaching. Exiting the FOG - through sheer determination. Accepting that you are responsible for you, and your STBX is responsible for herself. You need to be willing to let her fail in order for her to fully own her potential recovery - and to accept that she might not succeed - and to accept that if worse comes to worst, that it's not your fault.

You are not responsible for whatever unresolved trauma or other underlying conditions have produced your stbx's BPD behaviors, and you are not responsible for how she processes or fails to process her own experience.

Men and women go to war, suffer PTSD, and still don't abuse their partners and support systems when they return (though some do). Just as men and women suffer horrible abuses, disappointments, and other personal challenges of all sorts - and still don't adopt BPD behaviors (though some do).

We understand that your stbx wants what she wants, and at times she rages - in front of the kids - to try to get... whatever.  We understand that you've been through a lot to get to this point.

Still stepping back...

In addition to allowing your stbx to navigate this process on her own, you also need to trust one or more mental health professionals to make a diagnosis and provide a course of treatment. This processes is often iterative... changing meds and doses over time...  the patient and provider work together.  You need to a) let these other people do their job, and b) not make it your job to be the rescuer / responsible party for your stbx.

It's ok to be interested and concerned - you're human. Your feelings are valid, too. But the hard part is detaching and allowing your feelings to be your feelings - and giving her the space she needs to chart her own course forward.

If you both follow the typical path forward, she will eventually find a new partner - not your problem! She may be happy, or not - not your problem! Similarly, you may also find a new partner. She may be activated and once again act out - not your problem! etc etc etc.

Moving through the next steps in the D process with detachment, while keeping the kids front and center - will help set the tone for the next phase once the D is finalized.

If you're looking for other resources, consider revisiting the section here re: FOG...  https://bpdfamily.com/content/emotional-blackmail-fear-obligation-and-guilt-fog

Hope this is somehow helpful.

[ForeverDad]

My ex was never diagnosed - so far as I know.  I just had to muddle through with my own informed conclusions about which disorders her perceptions and behaviors seemed to fit.  Not elegant or official, but practical.

As historical background, many pwBPD were diagnosed with Bipolar in decades past.  One reason was that back then BPD was considered untreatable and hence not covered by insurance.  That has changed a lot with Cognitive or Dialectical Behavioral Therapies (CBT & DBT).

Since Bipolar is largely a biochemical imbalance, meds are commonly described.  But Borderline, though moderated with drugs, is best addressed with therapy.

Your stbEx may believe simply drugs are needed, but if Borderline traits fit then long term therapy is crucial too.  As already stated, this is something for her to do, if she ever chooses to do so, you can't do it for her.

Why?  Borderline PD is a disorder most impactful to close relationships.  People on the periphery may notice something "off" but it doesn't impact them very much.  But since you've been in such a close relationship with her, there's too much intense emotional baggage of the past for her to listen to you.  In other words, you're a trigger for her overreactions.  On the other hand, a neutral (not emotionally involved) expert or outsider might make progress, well, if she will set aside her Denial, Blaming, Blame Shifting, emotional outbursts, etc.

We here in remote peer support can't fix your ex either so we focus on you, educating and informing you, teaching you various skills and strategies to deal with typical BPD behaviors, helping you to take a look at yourself and more.

[AlleyOop23]

Thank you for writing and sharing. It is a HUGE help. It is great perspective when I do need it.