What is the secret to stop being attacked?

[SuperDaddy]

When living apart, is it possible to end the relationship conflict with your BPD partner? I mean, is it possible to stop being verbally attacked and devalued?

I'm intrigued with this because Pook075 said (in another thread) that he succeeded in doing that with 3 different people that have BPD: ex-wife, daughter, and "best friend's little sister." In the case of an intimate partner, it would be harder, but can the same approach work?

Pook075 said the drama ends as soon as they figure out that "you are always there for them." But obviously this is not enough, because this was already a true fact during his marriage and also in Rowdy's marriage, but both of them got devalued and left by their partners anyway (as they said in the thread).

So I was thinking maybe the trick to getting along with someone with BPD is to never exhibit any emotion that is negative and indicates the lack of acceptance or approval of something about them (their behavior, their choices, their thoughts, etc.) or can be interpreted in that way. Here are a few examples I made:

- I am tired of this behavior of yours. (not accepting something about their behavior)
- Can't you just admit that you have lied? (not accepting the lie and the lack of disclosure)
- You are making our kid watch too much screen. (not accepting the choices)
- You are freaking out all the time! You are a strange person, aren't you? (not approving the overreactions)

So is this about the concept of "radical acceptance"?

But you know, we can't accept everything. There are things that are completely unacceptable, such as cheating or doing something that is dangerous for the kids. Is it possible to reframe anything that we don't accept/approve in a way that won't trigger them? Should we just shut up for a while and wait for our negative emotion to disappear before talking?

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[hiiumaa]

Hi SuperDaddy,

I would also like to know the answer to this question.

I can only tell you from my own experience that it wasn't enough to always be there for him.

I never used phrases like the ones you listed either. In the initial co-dependency phase, I tried to please him in every way and would not have spoken to him like that.

Later, when I'd really had enough, I had already read/heard so much about BPD and NPD that I knew validation and non-violent communication were the better options.

The fact was that this couldn't stop the outbursts.

In the last nine months of the relationship, I even asked artificial intelligence for help in critical situations when exchanging text messages, asking for the best possible, most empathetic and validating response, but one that was calm and clearly setting boundaries at the same time.

An example of a response I gave after distorted facts, blame shifting and accusations came up: ‘Xy, I have read what you wrote and I can see that you are very upset. At the same time, I stand by what I said: I cannot take responsibility for something that is not mine.’

This was followed by a complete break in contact after further accusations.

I have also added the following to such responses: ‘... We can now take a 30-minute break and continue writing when we have calmed down.’

That did not help either.

A therapist once said that in such moments, the old trauma is triggered too strongly and without the tools they would learn in therapy, they have no chance of calming themselves down.
Their nervous system is in survival mode and clear thinking is no longer possible. They feel like the helpless child again.

I am curious to hear what experiences others have had!

[SuperDaddy]

Hi hiiumaa ,

Thanks for your response. So you have never criticized, rejected, or disapproved of anything about him? And you tried to avoid saying no?

An example of a response I gave after distorted facts, blame shifting and accusations came up: ‘Xy, I have read what you wrote and I can see that you are very upset. At the same time, I stand by what I said: I cannot take responsibility for something that is not mine.’

This was followed by a complete break in contact after further accusations.

I'm curious, what was he asking you? Did he want you to stay in your place or store something there so that he would have an excuse to go to your place frequently?

In all of my relationships, whenever I need to say NO and put limits, I do it firmly, even in the beginning of the relationship. I think that has been helpful in a way, but saying no when they are dysregulated is a problem. Maybe the problem is within the emotion we feel when we say it? Maybe saying no when feeling empathy would work? I know we can't just turn a switch and choose our emotions, but just saying.

[hiiumaa]

Hi SuperDaddy,

That's interesting. When you say that you said no clearly from the outset in your relationships, does that mean that your partners knew that about you from the start?

For a while, I had the theory that a ‘no’ from me became increasingly difficult for him to tolerate over the course of the relationship because I was so co-dependent at the beginning and really went out of my way to please him and avoid dysregulation at all costs, and only started to set boundaries over time – and this boundary setting was simply unfamiliar to him.

Just to mention it: trying to please him didn't help either. He still became dysregulated – because it could also have been the outside world that triggered him and I was only being used by him to regulate his emotions.

To answer your question: no, I never criticised him and I also made a conscious effort not to use ‘you’ messages.

But of course I had to say no from time to time. For example, when he wanted to meet up with me at a time when I simply couldn't because I had to be there for my son or had an important appointment, etc. That was enough to make him feel rejected. And no matter how lovingly and compassionately I told him that I knew it made him sad and that I myself thought it was a shame, but that it couldn't be changed and we would make up for it, it didn't help.

Weeks later, he often told me the exact wording of HOW I should have communicated my rejection or my ‘no’ to him, and every time I felt really cheated because I had said it almost exactly that way. BUT - in his dysregulated state, it clearly did not come across that way to him.

The situation in which I gave him the above answer was after he got drunk on New Year's Eve. Since he is a binge drinker and I have already experienced bad situations with him when he is drunk, I communicated to him a long time ago that I would have no contact with him as long as I could not be sure that he was sober. I need a clear, honest statement from him: ‘I'm sober again.’ He knows that.
Nevertheless, he contacted me drunk on New Year's Eve via text and tried to call me. I did not respond and stuck to my boundary.
After that, he sent me photos and jokes for days and wished me a happy new year. I replied to every message with my standard text saying that I cannot have any contact if I cannot be sure that he is sober. I wanted to signal to him that I am there, but that he has to position himself for any exchange.

This caused him to freak out and shift the blame: I had withdrawn over Christmas, he had had crises that I hadn't responded to (I didn't know anything about this because HE had withdrawn over Christmas), HE had contacted me on New Year's Eve, but I hadn't contacted him (of course not – he was drunk and my boundaries apply)...


I haven't yet had a situation where he left things at my place and wanted to use that as an excuse to come over to me. But I have had a situation where he wrote to me saying that he had gastroenteritis and was feeling sooo ill, and he wanted me to drive the 50 km to him IMMEDIATELY, even though he knew full well that I couldn't because of other commitments that day. I didn't have a car that day either because it was in the garage. I had already texted him early in the morning that I would cook him some soup and bring it to him first thing the next morning.

So he knew I was thinking of him and cared about him, and I told him that he could of course call me in an emergency and we would find a solution.

I wrote to him in an incredibly loving and empathetic way, saying that I could imagine he was feeling awful.

It didn't help. He insulted me, accused me, played the poor victim that nobody loves... He didn't want the soup anymore, and he didn't want me to visit him the next day either. Instead, he started drinking.

To be honest, I don't think you can counteract a dysregulated state if it was a strong trigger.

Maybe someone else has had different experiences. I'm curious to hear about them!

[hiiumaa]

SuperDaddy, something just occurred to me: he took a certain antidepressant for a few months. During that time, it was sometimes possible to catch him! He was in a completely different mood, with significantly less tension in his body. It was really noticeable.
Unfortunately, his doctor switched him to a different medication at some point because it allegedly caused abnormalities in his ECG. Since then, everything has been back to normal and he is impossible to catch when the dysregulation starts.

[ForeverDad]

Likely neither you nor I nor many here ever had a realistic ability to stop the pattern of attacks (outbursts).

While that sinks in, we do have practical tools, communication skills, time-tested strategies, and more to help us address the other person's outbursts, rants and rages.  One approach may work for a while, until it doesn't.  Then other approaches can be included.  And so on.

Some of us have had people with BPD traits (pwBPD) that were relatively mild.  Perhaps described as quiet Borderlines.  They probably are more receptive and responsive to long term therapy.  Our better boundaries and communication skills may help, distance apart may help, meds may help, but the key is focused therapy.  And not just for the other, we too can benefit from therapy.  Partly it is us finding ways to address the issues better but in the final analysis it's in the other's hands as to whether they will face their core issues and truly seek recovery.  (And some therapists don't even try to name a disorder or name the therapy since even that can trigger denial and resistance.)

I hope that's the case because some who arrive here don't stay long enough or return to share their long term outcomes.

Just as all the members here can't be lumped into one neat category, the same goes for our loved ones, none of us have identical personalities.

[Rowdy]

“But you know, we can't accept everything. There are things that are completely unacceptable, such as cheating or doing something that is dangerous for the kids. Is it possible to reframe anything that we don't accept/approve in a way that won't trigger them? Should we just shut up for a while and wait for our negative emotion to disappear before talking?“

Hi SuperDaddy. No, this is a bad move IMO. As you mentioned, I was discarded. There were behaviours that I wanted to discuss with my wife but didn’t, because I knew it would trigger her. Maybe if I had a discussion with her then the outcome would have been different….. who knows.

What I will say from my own personal experience and other peoples accounts on here, is that changing your approach after being in a relationship for a significant amount of time is going to change their perspective. I would never question her behaviour, or pick an argument or say anything that could trigger her for probably the last decade of our relationship, but if she wanted to start an argument she would bring up any possible slight I’d said against her 20 years ago. If I’d done something she didn’t like even before we were in a relationship that could be brought up. Or if she perceived I looked at her funny, or if I’d breathed out slightly louder than normal, if I’d slightly raised an eyebrow, or rolled my eyes.

Once in that zone, I don’t think there is anything you can do to stop the drama until it has been played out in their own head.

[Rowdy]

*is NOT going to change their perspective*