Im ready to learn the tools V

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

All,


when her and I are not in a relationship, when we are apart or just friends... .I feel depressed and have major bouts of anxiety... .

DO I NEED TO BE WITH THIS WOMAN OR TRY AND GET AWAY FROM HER?

Talking with a T but just started with a new one... .so getting up to speed

[Oncebitten]

All,


when her and I are not in a relationship, when we are apart or just friends... .I feel depressed and have major bouts of anxiety... .

DO I NEED TO BE WITH THIS WOMAN OR TRY AND GET AWAY FROM HER?

Talking with a T but just started with a new one... .so getting up to speed

[patientandclear]

OB--I can't answer what you should do. 

But to stress that you do have non-miserable choices, I can say that if you were not "together" there is a healing path that eventually will resolve the anxiety and depression. Those feelings are coming from complex sources that probably don't have much to do with love. The dynamic you're caught in involves intermittent reinforcement, flooding of happiness-inducing brain chemicals followed by cutting those off producing a craving for more. When she frames the problem as you needing to prove yourself a trustworthy partner or [substitute other hoop], that likely clicks into some deep seated idea you have that you need to perform to get or keep love. There are undoubtedly other aspects (I'm not a psychologist, just have read and lived this stuff for a long time).

It's said on here a lot but it really can function just like any other addiction. If you choose to stop using the addictive substance, it's going to feel really bad for some time. If you look at that bad feeling as evidence for what you should do, it's not going to encourage you to stop using, because the feeling sucks so much! I believe Meili had some important posts on the old Personal Inventory board about how for a while he was continuing with his ex because it allowed him to avoid having to go through the rotten feelings. It makes sense. It just doesn't necessarily allow for progress and growth.

If you decide you want to end reliance on something destructive and addictive, your conscious mind has to commit to overriding those feelings and impulses for a good long time.

There are exposure triggers and other environmental and behavioral choices that make it easier or harder.

I completely relate to the depression and anxiety without her. I can also report that it can shift if you commit to healing. It hasn't been easy for me--I've done a ton of trauma therapy and have a better idea now why this dynamic was so tough for me, why it did so much damage; and I committed to white knuckling it for as long as it takes. Your story for why this hooks you is probably different from mine and your healing path is also likely different, but my point is that those feelings that you know will come if you aren't actively "in a relationship" with her are survivable. Don't let them dictate your choices.

[Oncebitten]

PNC


I understand what you are saying... .just wonder sometimes what is wrong with me... .most likely some deep seeded issue of my own... .tried to talk to her this morning about us... .got the just friends thing, and how I had done nothing but wrong and had never addressed anything.   essentially offered to fix everything right now and all I got was too little to late... .I heard that a month after all this happened... .I really feel like she just wants to lord this over my head... .she can't forgive me bc that would inconvenience her use of guilt

[Grey Kitty]

when her and I are not in a relationship, when we are apart or just friends... .I feel depressed and have major bouts of anxiety... .

DO I NEED TO BE WITH THIS WOMAN OR TRY AND GET AWAY FROM HER?

What you need is radical acceptance of her as she is so you can make your own choice. You (emotionally, at least) want there to be three choices:

• Get away from her
• Be in a r/s with her, knowing she will push you away then pull you back and stay connected with her other "friend"
• Do some magical thing so you can have the magical relationship with an ideal version of her (which doesn't exist) who won't put you through this.

As long as you think the third choice is possible, you really really really don't want to accept the one of the first two which is right for you.

[Oncebitten]

come see me... .dont come see me... .I love you... .I hate you... .don't ever leave me... I dont even want to know you exist... .please be my friend


all in the past week... .this woman is causing me to loose my sanity

[Notwendy]

OB, I am going to echo the addiction model. This up and down emotional roller coaster produces neurotransmitters up/down in your brain that mimic drugs.

You say you love this woman, but I am going to propose something else ( beyond your feelings for her which I believe are genuine). When you feel the anxiety of withdrawal- you go for her for the next fix, the next relief from the bad feelings, the high of being in love- and then, the crash as it lets down again.

She also must get something out of this- the stringing two guys along. I am sure it is ego reinforcing for her- this guy is so into me. Now, does that sound like love to you? Love is wanting the best for someone else, not the feel good high in the moment and that goes for both of you.

I believe you when you say you love her, but IMHO, you are addicted to her. Like any addiction, people have no control over it- the addiction is a powerful thing. Examples abound of people who lose their sanity, their health, their family because of addictions.

Sometimes the only hope is when someone hits bottom. Not sure if you have hit that yet. But the way out of this is to look at your situation like an addiction and seek help and support. 12 step groups can help with this but only with commitment- meetings, a sponsor, working the steps- the whole 9 yards. There are other programs I am sure, but I am only familiar with 12 steps.

There is help- and hope- and support- for you to regain your sanity- at your local co-dependency 12 step groups, possibly other resources in your area. l hope you will consider reaching out to them.

[Oncebitten]

NW

Its an addiction, full blown one.  Not sure what she gets out of it... .I suppose a lot... .much younger man doing everything in his power to win her love... .and for what... .so I can be berated for months for a couple of phone calls placed to a woman I met online... .makes no sense... .but yes its an addiction... .I honestly feel better when she is yelling at me and in a full blown rage than not speaking to me... .she told me again today she is done... .we have no future... .I had a panic attack asked her to talk to me until it was over... .got a list of my wrongs and then she hung up... .apparently I am the worst man alive.

[Oncebitten]

When I think back the whole thing is ridiculous... .3 weeks ago according to her, we were twin flames and she was looking at places to get married.   Today we can only be friends and she is doing me a favor at that.  All reset to this summer bc of a poem that may or may not be about me and her.  sigh... .so much wasted love, energy, health... .tried to give her absolutely everything... .its never been enough... .it will never be enough

[Grey Kitty]

... .Today we can only be friends and she is doing me a favor at that... .

Does the "friendship" you are experiencing today feel like a favor or a gift to you?

Is all this self-doubt and confusion really making you feel good?

[Oncebitten]

GK

God no... .sorry I was being sarcastic... .her friendship is not a gift... .she just wants to either keep me around for supply or keep tabs on me

[Skip]

... .she just wants to either keep me around for supply or keep tabs on me... .

Once', I'd really encourage you not to go down the path of putting this all on her. See this for what it is and learn from it.

She was in a relationship with another guy, they had a serious falling out, she got involved with you before the other relationship was over. She really liked you, but she had unfinished business/history with the other guy (both had an investment in that relationship) and it created a love triangle that she struggled with.

You fell for a girl who seemed crazy about you (you didn't realize that she was rebounding) and then she inexplicably started pulling back. You couldn't understand that the shift in the behavior vs the feeling she expressed was related to the rebound, so you assumed it was something you were doing and you did your best to make changes to improve the relationship. Being the third party in a rebound in killer, because you are in a play but only seeing part of the script. The third party often gets emotionally crushed.

This got really messy when she discovered that both men would tacitly accept the other man as an "obstacle to be overcome" rather than a deal breaker and she could play it out for a little while to see what was best for her. Here is where everyone kicked their values (and boundaries) to the curb.

This got even messier when you over-pursued and started to be needy/clingy. Over-pursuing and needy/clingy are not attractive - it works against you. You assumed that the ups and downs had to do with you and her, but there has been a larger script playing out and her relationship with him had a lot to do with the ups and downs.

You can't win in these things. Typically what happens is the triad is unsustainable and the relationship drops back to two. That relationship fails in time (because the problems are still there) and the other pairing might pick up. If it does, it also has a high likelihood of eventual failure because it was only ever an "additive" relationship to the other.

If you want to have a shot at making this go (against the odds), the smartest thing you can do is to do a "no-fault" back up - "Hey, I understand. Friends is cool." - and act strong / desirable and more and more unavailable, and wait - month, 3 month, 6 months... .

You have heard this from many members in many different ways.

Once anyone experiences a rebound relationship or affair, they will typically screen every future relationship to avoid entering into such a no-win heartbreaking thing again.

This, is not a BPD thing. This happens all the time. It's human nature. Often it happens in failing marriages. It's innocent enough when it starts, and then... .

Boom.

[Ragnar1982]

OB,

I have recently removed myself from a triangulation situation. It does not get better, I can assure of that. I was lied to about marriage, having children, living together for close to a year and a half. My ex used these tools to string me along, but when it came time for her to move out of her ex's house (I use that term loosely because they are still actually together) she wouldn't follow through. It was excuse after excuse. I was the side guy, but lead to believe I was in a monogamous relationship with her. There are several times she treated our relationship as if we were together, while actually being in a full blown marriage. I didn't know this at the time, but even though things seemed strange, I hung on out of love. There were many times I had the opportunity to leave and not look back. I wish I had. The cycles of breaking up and making up developed a very real trauma bond for me. I have never had mental health issues, but just recently was diagnosed with PTSD and anxiety because I have lived in such a heightened state for so long. I encourage you to walk away from this. It's hard, but if you don't you are only going to make it harder on yourself.  Don't allow yourself to be the third wheel anymore. "When people show you who they are, believe them."  Someone told me this about 8 months ago, but I kept giving my ex the benefit of the doubt. It was not worth it, believe me. And I'm the end, I was left emotionally destroyed, as well as her and her husband. This is a dangerous game to be a part of, my friend. BPD or not. Please put yourself first.

[formflier]

She reminded me that I had told her I would have that talk as many times as she needed.  

I'm a bit late to the thread.  Lots of good questions, ideas, and ways to look at things have been presented.

I have a couple quick reactions.  

It appears that OB is really into analyzing EVERY INTERACTION to figure out what it means for the potential of a long term r/s (of some sort).

I believe that rather than getting mixed up in tactics (the minutiae), it would help you to think strategically for a few days or a week, and then decide how to (or not to) engage her in the future.

What we know

1.  She will give you lots of mixed signals... .therefore... .it is doubly important that you sort yourself out and not send her mixed signals. (see the quote above)  I can easily see how this "rocked her world".

2.  She IS consistently sending you a message that the other guy is in her life and she wants you at a distance that she controls.  If you are fundamentally... .at a core level... not OK with this type of relationship, then you should... .?  (only you can answer this)

Wishing you the best as you sort through this... .

FF

[Oncebitten]

New day same story... .everything great, she tells me she needs more, I try and have talk about how we can have more she gets upset... .says she needs breather we dont talk for a day... .tex her tell her good morning, she says she needs to talk to me... .she calls asks how I am, I say ok, she asks whats wrong I say nothing, make some quip about mornings... .she goes from normal to ballistic in about a min flat... .says she will just talk to me another time bc right now I am giving her attitude.  I assure her that I am fine and not pissy and that I am not trying to give her attitude and if thats what came I out then i was sorry... .she gets mad says goodbye and then proceeds to text me about how I would not be ruining her day to day and she was done with my BS... .

Not sure what I did other than I was not just super cheery... .the last we talked we had a fight and she refused to talk to me for a day so... .yeah still a little down, I guess she cant wrap her head around the fact that my emotions last longer than hers do.

[formflier]

says she will just talk to me another time bc right now I am giving her attitude.  I assure her that I am fine and not pissy and that I am not trying to give her attitude and if thats what came I out then i was sorry... .

JADE alert... .

You need to "take charge" and let her react to you... .vice the other way around.

There will be some trial and error... .

Stop invalidating... .(explaining to her that you are not experiencing what she thinks you are experiencing... .is INVALIDATING to her)

My gut says that validation is NOT going to work because of her rapid shifts... .you could try... .or you could try briefly being empathetic and listening... .vice defending.

example

her:  You are giving me attitude...

you:  Oh my goodness... .what a thing to say!  I'd like to listen to your concern...   Practice this... .there should be some shock... .going to concern.

Do NOT answer her... you are the listener...

How do you think this would go?

Make sure and end conversation on your terms.  "Babe... this sounds really important to YOU.  Can we find time after I get home to talk further.  I've got to go now... "  end call

FF

[Oncebitten]

FF

What it amounts too is that her behavior towards me has me in a depressed state... .she knows this nut rather than be accountable for that and try and comfort me... .she lashes out at me for being depressed. Gets angry bc I am bringing her down... if its the other way around then she expects me to do everything to cheer her up... .essentially I am not allowed to have a bad day

[formflier]

she expects me to do everything to cheer her up... .essentially I am not allowed to have a bad day

Yep... .I see the same thing in my wife.

Please don't ever expect to change HER expectations. 

Do your part... .for a time that YOU determine.  End that on your terms, hopefully with a promise to return to the subject later. 

Don't go round and round about "why" you have to go... .announce it... .assure her you will be back... .go.

Thing bigger picture:  It's about the attitude that you carry... .knowing that she will carry a bad one...

FF

[formflier]

FF

What it amounts too is that her behavior towards me has me in a depressed state... .s

   

Wanted to handle this separately. 

First... .the virtual hug... .because I've been there... .we've all been there.  When we needed someone to pick us up... .and they kicked us in the Jimmy... .

That being said... .this is another reason to DO the relationship on your terms... .your time limits. 

If her behavior depresses you (and I'm sure it does... .!)... .then limit the amount of time you spend around that behavior.

Even better if you take the extra time and spend it on you.  Go get a nice burger or something... .just for you.

FF

[Oncebitten]

FF

thank you for the support, yes I know that at times I have to step back from her... .which is hard bc when she hurts I want to help her... .the worst is realizing that when I hurt... .truly hurt she may not be there for me

[formflier]

FF

thank you for the support, yes I know that at times I have to step back from her... .which is hard bc when she hurts I want to help her... .the worst is realizing that when I hurt... .truly hurt she may not be there for me

A bit of a re-write... .try this on for "new" mindset.

"Yes I know at some times I have to decide to spend my time elsewhere, assuring her I will come back to her when I am able... ."

Just because you are taking care of another priority does NOT mean you are "stepping back" from her.

Big point of wisdom...

"When she hurts, I will encourage her... believe in her... .and let her solve her own hurts... "

FF

[Turkish]

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