The lack of humanity and empathy is incomprehensible

[Duped 1]

They have zero loyalty and zero integrity. Mine spoke of marriage and being together forever and had a replacement days later if not before we were even done. It is beyond disturbing. There is no way I could ever be with another so quick. The lack of humanity and empathy is incomprehensible from someone who often said you were there everything. So heartbreaking and cruel. Like you never knew or meant anything to them.

[infjEpic]

The lack of humanity and empathy is incomprehensible from someone who often said you were there everything.
So heartbreaking and cruel.
Like you never knew or meant anything to them.

It is... .it's probably incomprehensible to them also, on some level. How cruel and selfish they are.
Too disordered.

Understanding the motives behind their inhuman behaviour - recognising the disorder in both it's bad and good expressions - , makes it hurt less... .eventually.

Like if a neuro-typical person took off all their clothes and ran around the streets screaming naked - you'd react in disbelief.
But if a typical 'crazy homeless' person did it, you'd be like... ."well, whaddaya expect really? *shrugs* They have faulty programming."

... .it's typically not to hard to recognise a homeless person. The disorder is visible on the surface.

However, with certain disorders, especially Cluster B - we mistake them for neurotypical people with neurotypical programming... .who seem 'crazy' about us! ( You can't recognise the disorder unless you have an awareness of it... .And who doesn't like lovebombing or idealisation or passionate sex? Even though these are just as much expressions of their disorder, as the cheating and splitting and pathological lying etc.)

[Skip]

Like if a neuro-typical person took off all their clothes and ran around the streets screaming naked - you'd react in disbelief.
But if a typical 'crazy homeless' person did it, you'd be like... ."well, whaddaya expect really? *shrugs* They have faulty programming."

... .it's typically not to hard to recognise a homeless person. The disorder is visible on the surface.

Quick fact check - BPD is not a neurodevelopmental disorder.

A neurodevelopmental disorders is a mental disorder involing impairments in the physical growth and development of the brain or central nervous system. The most accurate use of the term refers to a disorder of brain function that affects emotion, learning ability, self-control and memory and that unfolds as the individual grows.

Disorders considered neurodevelopmental in origin, or that have neurodevelopmental consequences when they occur in infancy and childhood, include:

    Intellectual disability (ID) or intellectual and developmental disability (IDD)
    Autism spectrum disorders, such as Asperger's syndrome
    Fetal alcohol spectrum disorder
    Tourette's syndrome
    Traumatic brain injury (including congenital injuries such as those that cause cerebral palsy[2])
    Communication, speech and language disorders
    Genetic disorders, such as fragile-X syndrome
    :)own syndrome
    Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder
    Mendelsohnn's syndrome
    Schizophrenia
    Schizotypal disorder
    HIV
    Malaria

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They have zero loyalty and zero integrity. The lack of humanity and empathy is incomprehensible... .So heartbreaking and cruel. Like you never knew or meant anything to them.

I can understand why you would feel this. I think an important thing to remember, however, is that how we feel is not necessarily a balanced construct of what is going on in another persons mind.

Why does this matter?

Because, like you show here, we often struggle more with the intent than the reality. My girl friend left me (reality). I never meant anything to her (intent/motivaton).

These things do not necessarily follow - even in relationships where both partners are not living with traits of a personality disorder. How it feels to us is not necessarily how it was intended by the other party or what gheir motivation was.

Take a relationship where both partners are not living with traits of a personality disorder and there is a sudden break-up and the one partner goes silent. Is it because the silent partner never cared - that all their words and adornment were hollow?

That doesn't make sense, right?

What might makes more sense is that possibly they loved the person but see a fatal flaw and are having a hard time garnering the strength to leave. In a case like this, a person would need to force distance and shut down communications.

Conversely, the person might feel really guilty because there has been a deep sharing and an implied ongoing commitment and now they are needing to back out and they are really uncomfortable and avoiding the situation.  

Or maybe there has been recycling in the relationship, the now silent partner to leave earlier, but were talked back into the relationship. So this time they are "poisoning the well" so to speak to avoid a "let's get back together - we're perfect together" plea.

I could go on... .

When we paint our exs as "zeros" (zero loyalty, zero integrity, zero humanity, zero empathy) and/or compare them with Schizophrenia, we are just creating a narrative that will seem "incomprehensible" as you labeled it. We can't learn from it - we can only be wounded by it and go on to develop diminished and even paranoid relationship skills and defective future attachments.

If we want to understand what happened, and more importantly learn how to screen future partners for relationship and conduct ourselves in relationships so that we we don't recreate these painful scenarios, we need to separate out all the "noise" and  focus in on the reality of what happened.

For example, how many times have you read about a member here who recycled 10+ times - going back after a break-up and pleading with their partner to and at the same time blaming the partner and their dysfunction. Then one day, the "BPD" partner ghosts them. What is the lesson here?  

Is it that the partner is zero loyalty, zero integrity, zero humanity, zero empathy and not neuro-developed?  Or is it that the partner is running away from the "doe eyes" and being talked back into the relationship. And what is the lesson for us? It might be that when we convince a partner back into a relationship multiple times, that a really unhealthy dynamic develops. Our partner is validated for unhealthy behavior, we may appear needy, and co-dependent traits may convince the partner that they are more valued and desirable than we are.

This is not giving a pass to the partner with BPD traits. By definition, BPD traits are associated with relationship failure. The reality is:

• studies show higher rates of relationship failure when one partner has BPD.
• studies show that partners of pwBPD often (50%+) have their own issues.

[Duped 1]

When we paint our exs as "zeros" (zero loyalty, zero integrity, zero humanity, zero empathy) and/or compare them with Schizophrenia, we are just creating a narrative that will seem "incomprehensible" as you labeled it. We can't learn from it - we can only be wounded by it and go on to develop diminished and even paranoid relationship skills and defective future attachments.

While some of this is hard to quantify, the facts in my case completely support zero integriy, zero loyalty and zero empathy regardless of how you want to spin it.

[marti644]

While some of this is hard to quantify, the facts in my case completely support zero integriy, zero loyalty and zero empathy regardless of how you want to spin it.

Duped,

I understand how you feel, this is all hard to swallow. My question to you is how are you dealing with your own stuff to become better and stronger? You want to date again correct? How are you planning to improve who you are? I find focusing on what I can do to make myself better helps reduce the ruminating about the poor behaviour of my BPD ex.

[Duped 1]

Duped,

I understand how you feel, this is all hard to swallow. My question to you is how are you dealing with your own stuff to become better and stronger? You want to date again correct? How are you planning to improve who you are? I find focusing on what I can do to make myself better helps reduce the ruminating about the poor behaviour of my BPD ex.

Absolutely Marti-

I have been seeing a counselor and reading a lot about codependency and detaching. I am by no means faultless here but the lack of integrity and empathy exhibited by this person is something I have never seen before. I had never even heard of BPD before but now I clearly see I was giving way too much to the point that I wasn't being fair to my kids or myself for someone who was only interested in taking and not reciprocating. Why did I do that... .something I'm still working through.

I'm also doing more me stuff-hunting, fishing, working out- trying to get back to the laid back, funny guy I used to be. I see glimpses at times but I don't know if I will ever truly be the same.

[marti644]

That sounds like you're doing all the right things. This takes time and we have to be patient. I hate it so much, I am a doer. Everytime I think I am doing better all of a sudden *bam* some thoughts come up and I am back into low self-esteem, sadness, anger mode.

And you will find yourself again, and you will be better than before with stronger boundaries, better self-esteem, and more self-awareness about your flaws and others. I think for myself "getting back to me" which is what my current life project is, is really about "finding out who I really am and who I want to be". I don't want to be the person that would put up with the abuse I did in the past. I want to be able to see the red flags, and quickly move away and focus on the friends and family that I know I can trust in. Then, eventually I will meet the right kind of people to date. All about not rushing I think. Hang in there man.

[Idsrvt2]

My x would say he had a lot of empathy more than most... .yet he left me so coldly all because I voiced I needed some space and a break while he decided if he was going to try and get off a fake life website.  I was in pain from a spinal treatment and was dumped... .knowing all I was going thru served with a protection order so with a bad spine had to spend 12 plus hours on three occasions in court

I had my faults in all this, but does the above sound like empathy?  No it does not.  He also texted that he tried to break up twice with me before and I would not let him go. He ment me no harm.   Someone posted above how we kept going back with them.   I think what my x was saying is he tried to prevent me this much hurt , but something about me wanted this so badly.  And I kept going back ... where I think most would have walked away before the first date with my x.   

[Skip]

While some of this is hard to quantify, the facts in my case completely support zero integriy, zero loyalty and zero empathy regardless of how you want to spin it.

Duped, I'm not trying to spin your relationship. My response was generalized as was your question.

I know you are hurting. I was hurting like you at one time. I remember telling a friend that I felt like a mother wolf who had lost all her pups and was baying (crying) at the moon every night. It is really hard it is when children are involved - I loved those pups.

I do suggest, however, that you not hold on too tightly to any narritive at this point in your recovery. Hear what people say, embrace it, seriously consider it... .we often learn more from those who post things we disagree with than those that agree. And by all means, reject things that, after careful consideration, don't apply to you.

This is the process. Go through the process.

We were broken up and for about a month but still having regular contact and talking of getting back together when out of the blue she said “we are going to figure this out” but of course it would be a while before I could be around the family again. She was warm for several days and again talking of marriage and the future and said she would always be there for me. I saw her a week later. On her way over on the phone she told me to “shut up”for asking a simple question. Once there she was cold but still wanted to have sex and the next morning she said we are done forever... .

Unfortunately I did not handle this well and got drunk and sent her mean texts about how she had been mean to me, no one had ever treated me worse, how hateful her heart was, how I understood why here ex divorved her, etc. She had her adult children contact me to tell me to leave her alone and next time I tried contacting her the cops would be involved. // I feel a lot of guilt for getting drunk twice and lashing out at her and I wish she wouldn’t have gotten the kids involved. I still can’t believe how she can just replace me and cut me out completely after what I thought we were to one another but I realize now that I am definitely better off. I was pathetic in the end begging for her to come back and I feel like a fool for that as well.

These excerpts from you first post might have a different interpretation than the one you are giving them. I'm not saying you are wrong. I am saying, don't hold on too tightly to the narrative and consider some others.

What you describe here could be seen, not as a person (her) who was committed and thinking marriage and suddenly and explicitly changed directions, but maybe more as someone on the precipice and struggling with her feelings - should I go back after this last break-up. She was questioning the path she had already set (broken up) and vacillating between staying broken-up and going forward. You were doing your best to charm her back and she was hearing you. Yes, she fantasized with you about marriage - this is the you she was attracted too.

She also said that "it would be a while before I could be around the family again". Those are the very significant words - words of someone who is very conflicted.

It sounds like the reality of getting back together brought up more of the feelings for why she left than those feeling she had from the conversations with you that were causing her to reconsider.

People do this. They can get caught in the "too good to leave, to bad to stay" quandary. They try to leave - its doesn't feel right. They try stay - it doesn't feel right.  The partner lobbies for a reunion and knows what to say. I might guess that something in the reunion meet-up was the tiebreaker for her.

I'm not defending her. Please don't feel that. You describe some bad behavior with your kids. If she has BPD, there will be impulsive thinking.

I am, however, challenging your view of the event. This statement, "it would be a while before I could be around the family again", is maybe more significant than you saw at the time.

To be honest, weren't you at the end of your patience with all of this. That is conflicted, too. If a man is thinking of marriage and his partner is vacillating, the typical response is to be understanding and give the person some space to continue sorting things out. In this case, giving her space had worked once, so it would have be reasonable to do it again.

You lashed out pretty hard and it was a death nail.

This is a harder narrative to accept and none of use want to think we had a hand in ending a love that we really didn't want to end. And, even if you had been a "Mr. Perfect" it might not have mattered. Love is fragile. Feelings are complex. pwBPD have very high expectations and those expectations can be extremely fragile. You can't know.

Duped1, one of the hardest thing for men to accept is that relationships with women often deteriorate in stages. Every time we recycle, the one party often thinks the problems are erased or forgiven, but the other is cautious and sees it as a proving time. Both parties often see the other person to be at fault. This thinking just leads to the next stepping stone in the break-up.

When we recycle 3, 4, 7, 10 times, we can get lulled into thinking these are problems that surface and are repaired, whereas most often, they are part of process of a relationship devolving and to a final break-up.

It takes a huge amount of self-awareness to see the problems that lead to a breakup and be the leader in a recovery and reverse the trend - this is true in all relationships.

Does any of that sound like it might pertain to your relationship?

[Duped 1]

You are making some assumptions here that are not accurate. I lashed out after the RS was over and she was already with the replacement. She didn't just make a few comments about marriage that week. She went on and on about it and talked of me playing golf with her dad andmoving in. She had demonized me to her daughter and that was the issue with the family (even though the things I said were minor compared to the things she said).

Do I think I contributed to the downfall of the RS? Absolutely. Had I know some of the tools I certainly could have extended the RS but it absolutely would have failed at some point regardless of my behavior as I would not have accepted being with someone who acted like she did. That's why I didn't propose despite heavy, ongoing pressure from her to do so.

[Duped 1]

If a man is thinking of marriage and his partner is vacillating, the typical response is to be understanding and give the person some space to continue sorting things out. In this case, giving her space had worked once, so it would have be reasonable to do it again.

 I wasn't the one thinking of marriage. She was. I kept saying we weren't healthy enough for that. You seem to be making several wrong assumptions here.

[Skip]

Which are the right parts of my comments.

[g2outfitter]

Duped

I really feel your frustrations.  You were deeply in love and you gave everything you had only to be treated as a piece of trash in the end.  It goes against everything you were probably taught and believed in how a relationship should be.  You hear and or read about how a man should act in order to be a good husband and father and compared to most you went above and beyond but in the end, none of it mattered.  You start to question not only your core values but when is doing the right thing going to have its rewards.  You question why you are not appreciated, why it seems as though good never overcomes evil, why life isn't fair and why people you love disappoint you.  You're angry because you didn't do anything to deserve the ultimate treatment you got.  You listened to your ex and no matter how difficult it was to please her you did everything in your power to do so.

You gave of yourself and you did all you could to make her life easier and happier.  Every single morning you woke up thinking of ways to cultivate her happiness, even though you were not getting that kind of effort in return.  You took pride in yourself for not being like the rest of the world because you lived your life by what the Bible teaches us, to put the needs of others before ourselves.  To treat others as we would want other to treat us.  To forgive others and not to judge so we are not judged ourselves.

Then you learn about BPD and you start to do your research. You start to find out that being a "people pleaser" is a bad thing and after a while you read about how to only heal from this is to look in the mirror and find out what our own faults are.  You go from feeling good about who you are and how you live your life to wondering if you were the problem.  You start to doubt yourself and your already damaged self-esteem becomes almost non-existent.  You become a shell of yourself because you find that you don't know how to act or how in the hell are you supposed to trust another person that shows you affection.

Your world gets turned upside down.  It royally stinks.  All anyone keeps telling you is that you need to move on and time will heal the wounds but they have no idea what you're experiencing because they haven't been exposed to BPD.

I am sorry for your pain... .I am sorry for all on this site who feel this pain.

[redriver]

I started dating way too soon, In my case I never herd of BPD, she said it was over we were still living together for a short while after, she was out talking and messaging other guys, so I figured I’d do the same. Thinking back now, I can’t even recall why. The closest I can come to, I wanted the distraction. Also the thought of knowing that I could still attracted women.
I moved into a relationship very soon after my EX and I really stopped talking and doing stuff together, and I can now see it was not the right time for me. I should have done far more to work on myself. I’m now coming out of the FOG, and I feel bad because a person will get hurt in the end, and they have done nothing to deserve it. I look at myself and feel horrid thinking that I know I will pull the plug, in order to get over my EX.
This is only my opinion, when anyone gets blindsided like most of on here have, some people have the ability to separate emotion from logic. I didn’t, I see now with far better clarity, but I know I HAVE to work on myself in order to be any use to someone else.  I know I’m codependent, and I know I have no sense of self-worth. The only way I can feel any comfort with myself, is to help and fix others. Sounds good on paper, but if I can’t like myself let alone love myself, how on earth can I love another.

[Skip]

when anyone gets blindsided like most of on here have, some people have the ability to separate emotion from logic. I didn’t, I see now with far better clarity, but I know I HAVE to work on myself in order to be any use to someone else.  I know I’m codependent, and I know I have no sense of self-worth. The only way I can feel any comfort with myself, is to help and fix others. Sounds good on paper, but if I can’t like myself let alone love myself, how on earth can I love another.

Really insightful.

I think we all struggle to separate emotion from logic - its that whole WiseMind thing and emotional maturity. It leads to the statement, "good mental health is hard".  Good mental health requires knowing when to push through the emotion and let the logic govern.

It's a learned skill. Awareness is the first step.

The same for codependency - unless there is some significant underlying issue, its possible to unlearn these leanings. Awareness is the first step.

 

We've done surveys in the past - the number of these relationship being post divorce rebounds is really high. To go from a 13 year dried up marriage to the "unknown dating world and come onto someone who really sees your worth and wants to rock your world... . that's compelling. It was compelling to her too - she basked in your appreciation and adoration. It was a loaded situation from the start.

[Pretty Woman]

Hang in there.

Just a side note: I think it's a fallacy that person's with BPD lack empathy. My ex couldn't watch the news without bursting into tears. She genuinely hurt when she heard about murders, rapes etc.

I say this about the very person who accused me of being a rapist.

You could say that is someone who is heartless who lacks empathy. Thing is this... .

My ex would grieve and have empathy for things/events she was NOT responsible for. If she coldly dumped someone at the alter and smeared them as a rapist she was as cold as cold could be, but if someone told her they were left at the alter, that was her new BFF and she would console them like a seemingly normal soul.

So I do think they can be empathetic... .but only as long as they didn't cause the pain.