I read somewhere that a BPD is stuck in the emotional developmental stage of a 3 year old and a NPD

[RomanticFool]

It is not an exaggeration to say that finding this site has possibly saved my life. I am over 50 and the break up of my longstanding relationship with my exBPD married lover made me feel that I am too old to find that level of Nirvana again and therefore was life worth living anymore? There is a bridge where I live called 'Suicide Bridge' and I was imagining myself jumping off it.

I'm not saying I was actually suicidal but these thoughts have from time to time entered my head. My wife recounts one time when I was at a petrol station and I told her work was going so badly that I may as well douse myself in petrol.

I think this is what is called suicidal ideation. I am way too much of a coward to ever go through with it and I would never inflict that level of pain on myself at the moment. But a few years on and feeling more desperate, who knows?

Thanks to these boards I have found the strength of walk away from the very painful situation I have become enmeshed in. I have found it enlightening to read about the psychological components that make up the BPD personality.

I am posting here not just to share my gratitude but to flag up something which I think is misinformation regarding BPD. Myself and others have been propagating the idea that pwBPD cannot feel empathy. It wasn't until Mutt corrected that notion in a thread that I started to question this idea. I read somewhere that a BPD is stuck in the emotional developmental stage of a 3 year old and a NPD stuck at the emotional age of 6. It was said that empathy is not developed until later and therefore a BPD lacks empathy.

I have also found an article in Psychology Today which reports that a new study shows that BPD sufferers have an impairment in the emotional part of the brain that deals with empathy. I am very interested to hear what others here think about the question of empathy as related to BPD and NPD. It is very important to me because this belief affected a communication I recently had with my ex and if a pwBPD is capable of empathy then I have been very unfair to her.

My current thinking on BPD is that it is a disorder of dysregulation. This is based on an article I read here www.toddlertime.com/dx/borderline/BPD-ekleberry.htm

This part of the article sums up my current understanding of BPD:

Linehan proposes diagnostic criteria for BPD with specific patterns of behavioral, affective, and cognitive instability and dysregulation:

Emotional dysregulation:  These individuals are highly reactive and generally experience episodic depression, anxiety, and irritability; they also have problems with anger and anger expression.
 
Interpersonal dysregulation:  Relationships are chaotic, intense, but nevertheless, hard to give up. Individuals with BPD engage in intense and frantic efforts to keep significant others from leaving them.
 
Behavioral dysregulation:  Individuals with BPD evidence extreme and problematic impulsive and suicidal behaviors. They often attempt to injure, mutilate, or kill themselves.
  
Cognitive dysregulation:  There is indication of nonpsychotic forms of thought dysregulation including depersonalization, dissociation, and delusions that can be brought on by stressful situations.
 
Self dysregulation:  Individuals with BPD often have little sense of self; they feel empty. BPD is a disorder of both the regulation of and the experience of the self. (Linehan, 1993, p. 11)

Kroll suggests that borderline pathology is organized around (1) cognitive style (short-circuiting of thoughts with action, selective amnesia, intrusive imagery, cognitive disorganization under stress, rumination focused upon a few unpleasant old memories); and (2) emotional lability (a sense that one's own emotions, whether sadness, anger, joy, or love, are overwhelmingly intense). He describes two central borderline themes: (1) victimization and (2) loneliness/emptiness -- a pervasive sense of isolation and distance from the warmth of the human community (Kroll, 1988, pp. 67-68).
www.toddlertime.com/dx/borderline/BPD-ekleberry.htm

In the same article in the section on relationships. I found this the most revealing and heartbreaking part of the disorder:

Millon (Millon & Davis, 1996, pp. 662-663) describes this quality of BPD behavior within relationships as paradoxical. Even though these individuals need attention and affection, they frequently act in unpredictably contrary, manipulative, and volatile ways that elicit the very rejection they fear. Oldham (1990, pp. 301-303) notes that individuals with BPD destroy the relationships they cannot live without. Benjamin (1993, p. 113) describes this quality as individuals with BPD loving without measure the people they will soon come to hate.
www.toddlertime.com/dx/borderline/BPD-ekleberry.htm

[RomanticFool]

I have been doing some further reading of the article posted above and my understanding now is not that a pwBPD is stuck in the developmental stage of a 3 year old, but that they regress under stress:

Defensive Structure

The BPD defensive regulatory mechanism is regression. Individuals with BPD show a tendency under stress to retreat to developmentally earlier levels of anxiety tolerance, impulse control and social adaptation (Millon & Davis, 1996, pp. 664-665). For these individuals, the capacity to tolerate anxiety, depression, or frustration is limited. They have minimal capacity to perceive or accept reality limitations. They have difficulty differentiating past and present, reality and fantasy, and mature and infantile aspects of their mental life (Masterson, 1981, pp. 147-148).

Individuals with BPD are characterized by a predominance of primitive defensive operations: splitting, dissociation, primitive idealization, primitive projection, denial, and omnipotence. There is a defensive capacity to keep contradictory experiences of the self and others out of awareness. BPD is further characterized by the absence of anxiety tolerance, impulse control, or developed channels of sublimation. The limited ability of individuals with BPD to tolerate anxiety refers to the tendency to develop increased symptoms or regressive behavior with increased tension. Impulse control addresses the inability of these individuals to experience instinctual urges or strong emotions without having to act on them against their own better judgement. Sublimatory ineffectiveness refers to the degree to which individuals with BPD are unable to invest themselves in values beyond their immediate self-interest or self-preservation (Kernberg, 1984, pp. 15-19).
www.toddlertime.com/dx/borderline/BPD-ekleberry.htm

It seems to me that the key aspect related to empathy could be in the last sentence. As Mutt said in a post elsewhere, there is so much going on their heads that they cannot think of anything but themselves. Ironically, I am having an empathic reaction towards them for this problem. It's almost like a form of autism where external stimuli is so disturbing that they are unable to function.

[Skip]

I read somewhere that a BPD is stuck in the emotional developmental stage of a 3 year old and a NPD stuck at the emotional age of 6... .

I'm not sure that this is a very helpful if we want to understand our ex partner as its such a loaded and derogatory comment. I spend the afternoon with a three year 3 year old and a 5 year old - I don't think you would have been seeing your affair partner if see was operating at that level.

But let's break this down.

First, what is empathy? In short it is the ability to put yourself, mentally and emotionally, in the place of another person and see what they see.

Second, what level are you operating at? The easiest person to use as a benchmark is yourself - how empathetic are you? Are your statements here ^link describing accurately how your affair partner sees things or more of how you feel she should see things using the way you see things as the baseline?

Using the DSM scale below, how would you rate your empathy in that thread? In regards to your partner? In regards to your wife?

• Healthy  
• Mild impairment (1)
• Impaired (2)  
• Very Impaired (3)  
• Extreme Impairment (4)

Just as an aside, which of these levels belong to a 3 year old and a 6 year old.  

DSM 5 Empathy Assessment Levels
 
Healthy (0) Capable of accurately understanding others’ experiences and motivations in most situations. Comprehends and appreciates others’ perspectives, even if disagreeing. Is aware of the effect of own actions on others.
 
Mild impairment (1) Somewhat compromised in ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences; may tend to see others as having unreasonable expectations or a wish for control. Although capable of considering and understanding different perspectives, resists doing so. Inconsistent in awareness of effect of own behavior on others.
 
Impaired (2) Hyper-attuned to the experience of others, but only with respect to perceived relevance to self. Excessively self-referential; significantly compromised ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences and to consider alternative perspectives. Generally unaware of or unconcerned about effect of own behavior on others, or unrealistic appraisal of own effect.
 
Very Impaired (3) Ability to consider and understand the thoughts, feelings and behavior of other people is significantly limited; may discern very specific aspects of others’ experience, particularly vulnerabilities and suffering. Generally unable to consider alternative perspectives; highly threatened by differences of opinion or alternative viewpoints. Confusion or unawareness of impact of own actions on others; often bewildered about peoples’ thoughts and actions, with destructive motivations frequently misattributed to others.
 
Extreme Impairment (4) Pronounced inability to consider and understand others’ experience and motivation. Attention to others' perspectives virtually absent (attention is hypervigilant, focused on need-fulfillment and harm avoidance). Social interactions can be confusing and disorienting.

[RomanticFool]

Hey guys,  this post was supposed to be a reply to Skip's moderator post. Not sure what happened. How did it become a separate post?

[RomanticFool]

I would say my empathy is impaired when emotional. Otherwise healthy.

I would expect children to have empathy. Be selfish perhaps but they wouldn't stand by and watch an animal killed. That would be as traumatic for a child as a healthy adult, I would think. Which is another reason I was confused about the idea that 3 year olds or 6 year olds don't have empathy. I remember my brother's growing up and while thwy were naughty and selfish they were not lacking empathy.

[RomanticFool]

Skip,

Having thought about it a bit more. This is my revised answer to your question. I would expect a 3 year old to be focused mainly on their own need fulfilment but I think there would be a discernment of specific aspects of other's experience. So I would put a 3 year old at level 3 - very impaired.

I would say a 6 year old would be more advanced and perhaps a level 2 empathy. I am not a child psychologist so I'm just shooting in the dark here.

As for myself, with my friends and relationships where I am relaxed and without anxiety I have a healthy level of empathy. With my ex I would say it started off as healthy and then became a 1 and then towards the end a 2. The problem for me was trust. I didn't believe her when she said her husband found out about us. Mainly because when I asked what he knew her reply was vague, "I don't know, he won't talk to me.' This created paranoia in me that I was being made a fool of and caused me to stop considering her position.

I am absolutely certain that had I remained in the caregiving role and gauged her stress levels around her husband being more vigilant of her activities, we would still be talking. I am very capable of being totally giving and in the good times with her I was very loving, caring and supportive. However, by the end I didn't want to do it anymore. It is self centred in the extreme to expect somebody to be there for you 24/7 unconditionally without giving anything back emotionally. She would ask me in texts, "How are you?' but I soon learned that if I actually told her she would change the subject with, 'What are your plans for the day?' I am high profile in my field of work and I think it gave her some kind of reflected narcissistic supply to have me in her thrall. I think my own narcissism probably prevented me from becoming a total co-dependent caregiver because I wanted my own needs fulfilled. I would never have put up with her unavailability in my 20's. There was just too much choice in the world. I think one of the reasons I became quite so attached to her is because I got married and didn't want to sleep around with my usual level of prolifery. I thought if I have just one affair with a longstanding lover, it would not damage my relationship. Of course I know that is nonsense, my marriage has been damaged, but that was my justification. Had my exBPD expressed an interest in leaving her husband and actually forming a relationship with me, I suspect it would have been Armageddon.

FYI I woud say most of the time my ex was operating at a level 3. At extreme times ie bouts of depression and emotional dysregulation, I would say she then became a 4. Most of the time I was with her I would say a 3. She always felt threatened if I disagreed with her especially about politics. I think she was threatened by what she perceived as my ability with words and political awareness and almost cried one time when I disagreed with her about political matters. I had enough awareness of her fears not to repeat that mistake and in fact I spent the rest of my time validating her intellect. She was not without intelligence but she was without emotional intelligence which is why I think she joined the suicide prevention charity.

[Skip]

As for myself, with my friends and relationships where I am relaxed and without anxiety I have a healthy level of empathy. With my ex I would say it started off as healthy and then became a 1 and then towards the end a 2.

This is an important point. Many of us operate at lower levels of empathy when we are anxious (note, we are not talking about compassion).

As an outsider looking in, I would say that your posts here, since see she sent you that 1 liner text (How are you doing?), have exhibited an empathy level impairment of #3 "Generally unable to consider alternative perspectives; highly threatened by differences of opinion or alternative viewpoints. Confusion or unawareness of impact of own actions on others; often bewildered about peoples’ thoughts and actions, with destructive motivations frequently misattributed to others".

For example, you lashed out at her in a series of unanswered texts, emailed, and phone messages, and then accused of being abusive (silent treatment) for not responding. She waited and explained her situation and you then interpreted her response as "FU" as opposed to what she likely meant (remember we're talking about empathy, seeing the other persons viewpoint), and took exception with members here pointing that out. You then lashed out again, and made comments about her continuing to be abusive and not responding to you.

I'm not beating you up - there is 14 years of history here - but on the subject of empathy, you aren't showing much understanding of her viewpoint - in fact you have negated all that she has said.

Is she like you, possibly? Operating in zone 1-2 in normal times and 3 when anxiety come into play?

Why does in matter? It helps us understand where the relationship problems occurred so that we can better rationalize them, heal our wounds, and, in the future, not relive them.


A side note - many here comment on how many pwBPD are caregivers. Caregivers are often seen as empathetic. Poor empathy skills are associated with a number of personality disorders. In BPD, empathy tends to be there but it tends to diminish in times of stress/anxiety where the person with BPD is overwhelmed (flooded) by their own needs.

[Mutt]

Hi RomanticFool,

Why does in matter? It helps us understand where the relationship problems occurred so that we can better rationalize them, heal our wounds, and, in the future, not relive them.

You mentioned that your level of empathy is not impaired, you also mentioned that you can become self centered due to narcissism. I just wanted to share something with you, you described depression when you mentioned the suicidal bridge, I can relate with your statement, I've suffered from depression for many years, at least two decades, maybe others can also relate with how depression feels, it's tough.

It's difficult for me to think about someone else's perspective, or as Skip said, alternate perspectives / view points because some days I'm just trying to get through the day because I'm battling anxiety, panic attacks and depression, my level of empathy is certainly impaired and you could also say that the behaviors are toxic. I have to agree with Skip, we're all here to figure this out together, live and learn and try to make different choices in the future.

[RomanticFool]

You realise you are kicking the hornets nest guys? Of course you do! That's your job.

Ok, I am not here to people please. I am here to learn and heal. I am having a strong emotional response to your comments Skip. Why? Because I am like my mother. I don't like to be told I'm wrong. (One Christmas she was picking on me and feeling sorry for herself so I called her a martyr. All hell broke loose).

Ever heard of the Chinese Water Torture? Do you have any idea what being given the silent treatment on and off for 14 years by somebody you are desperately in love with feels like? The long term effect? Of course you do or you wouldn't be here.

I own the fact that I am volatile. I own the fact that I could have been more empathic to her here and there. I own the fact that I am from a working class background and I express myself in too strong a way for many people's sensibilities. Indeed my exBPD is a nice middle class woman who minds her manners. But underneath all of that social facade, at times, she was also a sadistic brute who didn't give a sh*t about my feelings. So if I am angry on here, it is because I am reeling from a broken heart and the emotional abuse i received at my exBPD's hands.

With regard to some of my posts, I am reacting to being quite strongly challenged on here when I am emotionally disturbed. I am sure when anybody is angry they are at an empathy level of 3. So you can define my behaviour as a lack of empathy if that's how you perceive it, but my view is that it is the cumulative effect of years of psychological and emotional abuse. Even if I did not have traits of NPD and I suspect I do, I would still have reacted with anger at the treatment I received from my ex. If I was a healthier human being, I probably would have just walked away, but I'm not so I stayed to do combat with her.

My wife will tell you that I can be bullying and not see things from her point of view sometimes. A complaint that I often have about her too. She will tell you that I can be self centred and not listen to her. However, what she won't tell you is that I lack empathy. Why? Because she is fair with me and I make an effort with her to overcome my shortcomings. We have always been fair with each other. When she had her miscarriage (some years before the exBPD showed up again) she told me I was wonderful. Of course, that is the least one would expect from a partner, but my point is that towards my wife I have a history of kindness, despite my personality flaws.

Even with my exBPD, much of the time I was kind and considerate. Despite the abuse she had visited upon me, I stood by her throughout rehab (even when she admitted she had gone to a gig with another man), I helped her in AA when she was struggling to stay sober. Sometimes I felt like her sponsor and psychiatrist rolled into one. I had the patience of a saint with her throughout much of our 5 year recycle. I offered her help with her son, whom she told me was autistic and an alcoholic/addict/gambling addict. I showed this woman a great deal of love over the years. When her brother and father died, I held her in my arms and she cried on my shoulder. That is a kind of bonding that goes beyond being lovers. She told me on a number of occasions that I was kind. All of that is the reason why I am so bloody hurt and angry at the rejection.

I admit that she also told me on a number of occasions that I am an aggressive bully. However, it is my conjecture that I was aggressive towards her because of her silent treatment. So we have a chicken and egg situation here, which one came first? Her passive aggression or my overt aggression?

From almost the start of the relationship she got into the habit of withdrawing emotionally after we had met up. From the outset I reacted angrily. My mother had always preached to me that if you let people treat you like sh*t they will do it all the more. I heeded that warning with gusto where the exBPD was concerned. If I had known then what I know now, I would certainly have tried to be more understanding. I just couldn't fathom why she was behaving so coldly after being so hot. In the early days I thought it was a class issue. Class is big in England and the middle classes cannot abide working class behaviour ie bullishness, extreme emotion, bluntness. I guess I was her 'bit of rough' because she kept meeting up despite my personality flaws.

The pattern was set early on and she told me she found my behaviour 'challenging.' Just dwelling on the class issue for a moment: If you live in a middle class environment where people behave with a certain type of etiquette and emotional distance, then I am going to seem aggressive. Because I am a big guy, when I was young, people used to think me aggressive. I am a marshmallow. I am not aggressive in person and I  have never been violent in my life. I have a temper. I have shouted and been angry with people, but I am not violent. My wife used to live with a man who beat her up. She tells me she has never had a single moment where she has been scared of me. I am as soft as sh*te as they say in Liverpool. And when she got to know me properly the exBPD realised that. Because if I really was a hectoring bully who never listened to anything she said and criticised her all the time like she has just accused me of, she would have run a mile.

In my normal everyday life, at work, in personal relationships, in any form of communication other than with my BPD (or my wife when we are arguing) I would suggest that most of the time I am at a healthy empathy level. I will own up to having arguments with a female business partner and we have fallen out occasionally, but we have known each other for 30 years and she is a difficult and controlling woman at times. Just as I am a difficult and volatile man at times. But most of the time I would say I am healthy.

Perhaps my exBPD could say that about herself also but I would strongly doubt that from what I have gleaned from her behaviour and her revelations about her life.

I will finish with this little gem. I have apologised to my ex on many, many occasions. In fact I stopped doing it because it was never reciprocated. I tried to instigate a rule between us that we never uttered criticism or anger in what was largely a texting relationship. That one lasted about five minutes because whenever she gave me the silent treatment it triggered my abandonment issues and off we went again. So for a time we texting only pleasantries and saved the conversations for Skype, where we never once had a single cross word. In fact face to face, we hardly ever had a single cross word. The one time we did was when my train was late and I got upset with her because instead of waiting at the station she went shopping. I met her at the hotel and remonstrated with her (because I was stressed) and she burst into tears. That was one of the few times we had a disagreement face to face. I knew instinctively if I was difficult with her she wouldn't meet me. So the rancour and horrible stuff came 99% through texting. Obviously a problem with having an affair.

The defence rests your honour.

[RomanticFool]

Sorry to hear about your depression Mutt. It's bloody difficult dealing with depression, anxiety and panic attacks. I hope you are getting the help you need.

 I suffer from what I believe is called dysphoria (profound uneasiness and dissatisfaction with life, followed by depression, anxiety and agitation). I would say that dysphoria is my default setting. In my life the only things that have relieved it are work (at times) women (love and sex), exercise and food. I understand that I am exactly the profile that BPD women go for. Add to that my NPD traits and bam... .my exBPD or somebody like her was always going to find me.

When I read that article about what happens when a borderline meets a narcissist. Alarm bells went off because I recognised both of us. I mentioned this to my exBPD when we were on good terms and she said some of it rang bells with her. This was when she first went into AA and was more receptive. It says in the article that the NPD is no match for the borderline because he always has to win. Given the fact that 73% of borderlines are women and I think around about the same level of NPD's are men. Do we spy something here?

To me this is not that different from the battle of the sexes is it? It's just a more extreme version of it, with people who are unable to compromise. Given the fact that 1 in 3 'normal' marriages end in divorce, a personality disordered coupling is probably just a more emotionally charged version of everyday life. I guess the splitting is equivalent to a sulk and the recycling like make up sex. When I view it through that prism I am less shocked and awed by what happened to us.

The only thing that rankles with me, is given 99% of BPD relationships end in failure. How has my ex managed to stay married? I am jealous of that.

[Duped 1]

Mine showed empathy to some people like her kids and patients at times. The only time she showed any towards me was during idolization or when her behavior was so horrible that she thought I was going to leave her. Otherwise she showed no empathy towards me whatsoever. When asked why I wasn't deserving of the same empathy she could sometimes show to others she said: "that's different-everyone is just polite in public but I'm in an intimate relationship with you"... .

[Skip]

The only thing that rankles with me, is given 99% of BPD relationships end in failure. How has my ex managed to stay married? I am jealous of that.

For college educated women who marry after the age of 25 and have established an independent source of income, the divorce rate is only 20 percent.

Not sure where the 99% comes from. By an average age of about 40, the divorce rate for people with BPD is around 35%; this is comparable to the divorce rate for the average U.S. citizen. However, people with BPD are far less likely to remarry after a divorce.

[RomanticFool]

Maybe it's a British statistic. I definitely read "99% of BPD relationships end in failure" somewhere online. Maybe it's just junk psychology.

[Duped 1]

I'm not sure why saying someone w BPD has the emotional maturity of a 3 year old is derogatory if it is true? They are commonly referred to as emotional toddlers and many of the stories do seem to support this.

Skip- Any thoughts on why BPD's don't remarry as often as nons?

[RomanticFool]

Duped1,

From what I've read, a pwBPD isn't actually stuck in the emotional maturity of a 3 year old but they regress under anxiety and fear. As Skip and I discussed over the page, it isn't that a pwBPD doesn't have empathy, it is just impaired due to stress and anxiety and their problem with dysregulated behaviour and emotions.

Skip and I then had a discussion about whether 3 year olds had empathy and this is the psychological rsponse from something I read:

We do not expect 3-year-olds to understand how the things they say affect other people’s emotions. They are not empathic in the way adults or even well-adjusted 6-year-olds are.

The source for this comes from: https://psychcentral.com/lib/how-children-develop-empathy/

That is where the quote about a BPD being stuck in the development state of a 3 year old comes from. However, they are not in that state all of the time. Most things I've read online actually say BPDs are capable of empathy, just at impaired levels.

[Portent]

Saying that they are emotional toddlers is not derogatory. That is exactly what has happened. We are born without the ability to use our higher level brain to control our emotions. And this is for damn good reason. If an infant had the same level of emotional control as an adult it would die. And infant has to be all limbic system, if they are hungry they need to get angry and cry. They cant get up and poor themselves a glass of milk.

As we move to toddler we start to learn how to use the higher brain to start regulating the strong emotions of the limbic system. The cerebral cortex starts to take control and we start to develop a true-self. The role of the parents, especially the mother, is extreamly important in this process. Without that emotional thermometer the child gets from their parents to guide them through this process there is a chance that fragile little ego will die and the true-self will never come into being.

Without the true-self the person never learns how to use their higher level emotional controls. It really is a learning disability. Except instead of reading, writing, and arithmetic, the disabled learning patterns exist in emotional intelligence. DBT has been shown in brain-scans to activate these deactivate parts of the brain essential for emotional control. pwBPD are not broken they simply never learned how to use the parts of their brain essential for emotional intelligence.

I take myself as a parallel. I think that in my youth I think I was budding anti-social personality disorder (the male version of BPD IMHO). I was highly impulsive and quick to fight. I had a rough childhood with a brutal divorce and custody battle between my mother and my father. At the age of about 10 my school was having problems with me and an old teacher came up with an idea. 'Portent is highly emotional and impulsive but at the same time he has an over developed sense of honesty, and personal honor.' They made me sign a contract that I would stop getting into fights. By my nature I could not break a contract that I had signed so it forced me to start working on controlling my emotions. My mom was also working with therapists and I did a lot of the stuff that is common in DBT now. I believe that in the course of a few years with the the contract I had singed always in the back of my head and the work I was doing I did learn how to use the emotional control centers of my brain.

[RomanticFool]

Hey Portent,

I just read some research in psychology today that said similar:

New research suggests an explanation for the relationship difficulties experienced by people with borderline personality disorder.

Investigators from the University of Georgia used functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) to discover that those with borderline personality disorder (BPD) have lowered brain activity in regions important for empathy. BPD is a mental illness marked by unstable moods.

“Our results showed that people with BPD traits had reduced activity in brain regions that support empathy,” said the study’s lead author Dr. Brian Haas, an assistant professor in the Franklin College of Arts and Sciences psychology department.

https://psychcentral.com/news/2015/08/31/low-empathy-associated-with-borderline-personality/91612.html

However, they are not like that all the time. They do have empathy just at an impaired level due to other problems and PDs.

It is my understanding, but I am no expert, the complete absence of empathy would give them a diagnosis of sociopath or psychopath wouldn't it?

[Skip]

Guys, one concern we have a community (clinical consultants, staff) is that the members of the Detaching board gravitate to impractical understanding of personality disorders and go away without having the tools needed to not repeat the experience. Some members have end u having 2-3 BPD partners. My comments are made for this reason only.

Hurt makes us want to create an explanation that soothes our wound - but the reality is often not as soothing - but a lesson well worth learning as part of our growth.

In this case, we are confusing empathy with compassion. They are two very different things. Empathy is the ability to understand how another person views things. As a general rule, we, as a group on the Detaching board have compromised empathy skills - its why we don't understand our partners and why we get into endless conflict cycles. No. admittedly, understanding how a person with BPD thinks requires more than average empathy skills because they are operating with impairment. But how and why they do things is understandable (can be comprehended) far more than "can't understand crazy".

The "3 year old analogy" is not helpful, in my opinion, because there is not a single one of us that would have put up with a person who acted like a three-year-old. Certainly not for 14 years (RomanticFool). If this was true, it would suggest we have some real issues.

The theories that pwBPD have under-developed empathy skills are pretty well established and that it traces back to childhood is also pretty well established. It's an over-reach, and it doesn't help us, to think they function like 3 year olds.

As Romanticfool shared above, he operated with level 3 impaired empathy when stressed. He affair partner has noted it. His wife also. He also notes that his ex does the same. Periods of impairment are not the same as chronic long term impairment.

The problem most of us had with our exes (who are mostly BPD traits) is not necessarily impaired empathy - its the high levels of anxiety - same as RomanticFool explains - that causes him to go to level 3.

Hope this helps.

Everyone is entitled to believe and heal as they want. I'd just encourage caution here.

[Portent]

It is my understanding, but I am no expert, the complete absence of empathy would give them a diagnosis of sociopath or psychopath wouldn't it?

Well I think they are sociopaths. Sociopathy runs right through the cluster B's. pwBPD's have great cognitive empathy they are really good at understanding what people are feeling. But they dont have true empathy as they dont feel it themselves. They are great at picking up ques from body language and facial expressions to get a read on your emotional state. But they dont use it for good they mainly use that knowledge for evil.

They also default to read anger given the childhood they usually had. While pwBPD are great at reading emotions in faces they absolutely suck at reading no emotion. If a face is showing no emotion they will default to reading that as anger. My pwBPDex would always think I was angry about something when I was just blah. When I started reading the studies on pwBPD and their ability to read facial ques I understood why.

[Portent]

The "3 year old analogy" is not helpful, in my opinion, because there is not a single one of us that would have put up with a person who acted like a three-year-old.

I would say it is neither here nor there. In terms of how their brain responds to stimulus yes they react exactly like a 3 year old. Overtime they develop maladaptive coping mechanisms for their deficiency in their brain. These coping mechanisms are not totally ineffective they are just maladaptive.

Again I will use myself as an example. I have a slightly lazy right eye. Because of this I am monocular. My eyes do not work as a pair. Unconsciously I have developed a cognitive system of visual tools to gauge depth since my natural depth perception does not exist. This is an unconscious cognitive coping mechanism that I developed starting from since a blow to the head as a toddler caused the problem with my right eye. It works well most of the time but sometimes the fact that I lack true depth perception will get me in trouble.

But also to me this is perfectly normal. Its just the way I am I know no other way of seeing the world. I have 0 understanding of what it would be like to see the world like everyone else does.

[RomanticFool]

Interesting discussion Portent and Skip,

From what I have read, I don't think BPDs are completely without empathy as stated above. The problem seems to be that they suffer dysregulation in 5 important areas: Behaviour, emotions, interpersonal, image and self. Depending on the amount of anxiety or stress they are suffering, this dysregulation kicks in to greater or lesser degrees.

I take your point about compassion Skip. Are you saying that BPDs lack compassion?

Also, I disagree that I am at an empathy 3 level when I am emotional all the time. I have been particularly perplexed by my break up and I would resist that diagnosis based on my written word. If you met me face to face I very much doubt you would think I had that level of empathy impairment, but I may be wrong and anyway that is semantics, because I do accept I have empathy impairment.

I didn't know the second part of what you said that most of the people here are empathy impaired also. So you must be familiar with the way we come on here and share and are aware of the reasons why we fail in our relationships with our subclinical BPDs. Are you saying that many BPDs would behave better with more empathic partners?

This knowledge now is making me think that I was hasty in dismissing my ex. I am feeling like i want to go back and see if I can engage her in conversation and try to understand her point of view.

However, the evidence suggests historically that she simply would not engage in a discussion with me. Perhaps it is because I have been attacking her for 14 years, but the knowledge I am gaining here is making me want to go and at least talk things through. I don't think she would change her position or we would recycle, unless she wanted to.

Before I say anything else, I'd like to know Skip what makes the pwBPD leave relationships and come back all the time if it isn't lack of empathy.

[Skip]

So you must be familiar with the way we come on here and share and are aware of the reasons why we fail in our relationships with our subclinical BPDs. Are you saying that many BPDs would behave better with more empathic partners?

If you look at the tools we teach couples, empathy and listening skills are #1. It's not about making the partner behave better, its about not making difficult times worse.

In your case, the way you responded to your affair partner made a trying situation far worse. It sounds like this was not the first time.

You can't fix someone, but you can stop making it worse and you can support them in their efforts to heal themselves.

Before I say anything else, I'd like to know Skip what makes the pwBPD leave relationships and come back all the time if it isn't lack of empathy.

I don't think empathy skills have anything to do with it in most cases. Although its true that a lack of empathy is in play when the ex comes back and asked for a favor as you are grieving, for example.

This knowledge now is making me think that I was hasty in dismissing my ex. I am feeling like i want to go back and see if I can engage her in conversation and try to understand her point of view.

RM, it's an affair. You both are enthralled with adding a third leg to your marriages. If it hasn't materialized as a full relationship in 14 years, it isn't going to happen. She has said as much. And you have explained your attraction to her mostly as a sexual one.

Get on a healthy path man. Drop this "sex addict" stuff.

Give your wife a good shot. If you can make it go, great. If not, set her free and with her dignity to find someone else who is also single. Do the same for yourself.

14 years of affairs... .its not remotely healthy... .for her or for you.

Besides, if your wife finds out, it will kill her soul. It's a level of betrayal that is hard to even fathom... .having an affair with a married women during your courtship and through your marriage. If she finds out, she will feel she lived a life of deception, betrayal, abuse. She will cry herself to sleep for years. She will have a blank stare at holidays. She will feel dirty and unworthy. She will wonder how God could let this happen.

Ask someone here who as been on the receiving end of an affair - life is never the same again.

[RomanticFool]

Get on a healthy path man. Drop this "sex addict" stuff.

I have been to SLAA, CODA and AA. I got married and tried to make a commitment to a healthy way of living.

None of it has worked thus far. All my marriage has done is made me feel frustrated and pissed off that I can't go out and meet women who appeal to me sexually.

I am getting older and my powers in that area are waning but the desire to do bad exists. I need help with it.

Besides, if your wife finds out, it will kill her soul. It's a level of betrayal that is hard to even fathom... .having an affair with a married women during your courtship and through your marriage. If she finds out, she will feel she lived a life of deception, betrayal, abuse. She will cry herself to sleep for years. She will have a blank stare at holidays. She will feel dirty and unworthy. She will wonder how God could let this happen.

Ask someone here who as been on the receiving end of an affair - life is never the same again.

That sounds an awful lot like how somebody who has BPD would behave.

[Skip]

I am getting older and my powers in that area are waning but the desire to do bad exists. I need help with it.

You don't want to hit rock bottom.

Just work with us here. Members will help you.

[RomanticFool]

having an affair with a married women during your courtship and through your marriage.

It wasn't going on through my courtship with the exBPD.

[Skip]

It wasn't going on through my courtship with the exBPD.

Will this be materially different to your wife? 

[RomanticFool]

No. You know I never cheated on anybody until my drinking got out of control. It was like crossing a moral boundary that I couldn't go back on.That's why i went to AA to relearn morality. It worked for a while but then boredom and feelings of emptiness set in.

[JQ]

.

[Skip]

That sounds an awful lot like how somebody who has BPD would behave.

RM, I've coached a lot of people who have been cheated on - it rips their soul out. It's not because they handle adversity poorly, its because they have been violated by the person they have given their life to.

Look how upset you are with your affair partner going quiet on you? That doesn't hold a candle to the destruction done by an affair to the innocent party.

Empathy. Can you put yourself in the shoes of your wife if she finds out? Can you see how she would see the world upon finding out?

If it happens, and you see her face, you will hate yourself for doing that to another human being.

[Mutt]

Hi Romantic Fool,

My ex was having an affair, I suspect that it was going on for a year or maybe more, there may of been other people, I'm guessing she was having an emotional affair. I should of followed my gut instinct when she was locking her phone, she'd never done that the entire time that we lived together, she was taking her phone with her in the washroom, she was putting on make up and saying that she was going out with her girlfriends and stay out past midnight, her friends all had small kids and she was doing this on a weekday, I'll never forget the day that she said that she had to talk to me when I got home from work, I just knew it was serious by her tone / look but again, she didn't show me empathy, it was like it didn't phase her, that day I lost complete trust, I only had a little bit left by that time but I couldn't believe what she'd done to me and to my kids, they broke up our home.

My kids now live together with him, she introduced him three weeks after she left and was having sleep overs less than a month after moving out she had a baby with him while she was still married to me, I was just beside myself, it felt like was one thing after another. My kids don't know, some nights she wasn't coming back home, I'd have to take care of the kids the next day, I didn't forget, I decided to get healthier mentally, stronger physically because it's a lot to take care of three kids by yourself and I want to live as long as possible so that i can guide my kids through this. Our marriage was in a death spiral, I just wish that she just separated and then divorce, I wouldn't mind if she dated while separated but not this way, I have to live with that, I find that I distrust the opposite sex and I'm worried that a new partner may emotionally check out on me like my ex but at least I don't have to wake up in the morning and face myself in the mirror and worry about having cheated on my ex.