Feeling of responsibility keeping me in the marriage - Part II

[prof]

Thank you everyone for all of your comments!  I've read through this entire thread several times, and each time I learn a few useful things I missed earlier.

Today I (attempted to) enforce another boundary.  One of the things that has always set me off when talking to uBPDw is when she says something along the lines of, "You don't care!"  To me, this seems like she is completely invalidating what I do feel (I actually do care!) and telling me how I actually feel.  I've definitely let my temper get the best of me in fights throughout our r/s, and statements like this are usually what triggers it.

I told her that I didn't appreciate that and walked out of the room.  She followed me into the living room, raging at me in front of S4, and then outside, raging at me in front of the poor mail lady.  I got into my car, hoping to get just a few minutes to myself, but she held the door open.

We talked through things some more and I eventually agreed to go back inside.  She finally explained that she wasn't telling me how I felt, but how she felt that I felt.  She seemed absolutely shocked that this is how I would interpret what she said.  ("I'm your first relationship.  Anyone that had been in previous relationships would understand what I meant!"

The good news is that this fight actually didn't last more than an hour or so.  She's watching tv in our bedroom and I'm about to get started on dinner.  Last week, we'd still be fighting until the wee hours of the morning.

[MrRight]

Yeah, they just send police for threats in the US.  This has happened twice in the last couple weeks (I probably should have called them again this most recent time, but I was exhausted and not thinking as clearly).

and the police will soon get fed up coming out every time she grabs a knife and locks herself in the toilet - you cant keep wasting police time like that and it sounds to me like calling the police to make a point is having no effect on her.

[MrRight]

Thank you everyone for all of your comments!  I've read through this entire thread several times, and each time I learn a few useful things I missed earlier.

Today I (attempted to) enforce another boundary.  One of the things that has always set me off when talking to uBPDw is when she says something along the lines of, "You don't care!"  To me, this seems like she is completely invalidating what I do feel (I actually do care!) and telling me how I actually feel.  I've definitely let my temper get the best of me in fights throughout our r/s, and statements like this are usually what triggers it.

I told her that I didn't appreciate that and walked out of the room.  She followed me into the living room, raging at me in front of S4, and then outside, raging at me in front of the poor mail lady.  I got into my car, hoping to get just a few minutes to myself, but she held the door open.

We talked through things some more and I eventually agreed to go back inside.  She finally explained that she wasn't telling me how I felt, but how she felt that I felt.  She seemed absolutely shocked that this is how I would interpret what she said.  ("I'm your first relationship.  Anyone that had been in previous relationships would understand what I meant!"

The good news is that this fight actually didn't last more than an hour or so.  She's watching tv in our bedroom and I'm about to get started on dinner.  Last week, we'd still be fighting until the wee hours of the morning.

now that's one area where yours differs from mine - mine keeps her b/s for the family behind closed doors - she is sweetness itself in front of everyone else.
soory but the 1 hour row is not progress - just a shorter row than normal. i sometimes think mine has "improved" then the next day we will have the row of the century.

[flourdust]

and the police will soon get fed up coming out every time she grabs a knife and locks herself in the toilet - you cant keep wasting police time like that and it sounds to me like calling the police to make a point is having no effect on her.

This is terrible advice.

It is absolutely the right thing to do to call for professional help when someone is presenting as a threat to themselves or others. That can take the form of police or social services, such as a crisis line.

You are not wasting their time -- this is their job.

If your BPDw is serious about her threats, then bringing in trained emergency responders can save her life.

If she is not serious and is only making threats to get your attention, then bringing in emergency responders will teach your wife that she will not get the attention desired by acting out in this manner, and she's likely to desist.

Either way, the right move is to call the professionals.

[MrRight]

This is terrible advice.

It is absolutely the right thing to do to call for professional help when someone is presenting as a threat to themselves or others. That can take the form of police or social services, such as a crisis line.

You are not wasting their time -- this is their job.

If your BPDw is serious about her threats, then bringing in trained emergency responders can save her life.

If she is not serious and is only making threats to get your attention, then bringing in emergency responders will teach your wife that she will not get the attention desired by acting out in this manner, and she's likely to desist.

Either way, the right move is to call the professionals.

The police are not the right people to deal with a threat of suicide. The police are trained in law enforcement and protecting citizens from criminal activity. I personally would not call the police in a situation where my wife was locked in the bathroom with a bottle of pills. In the UK - according to the NHS - this advice applies:

Contact your nearest accident and emergency (A&E) department and ask for the contact details of the nearest crisis resolution team (CRT). CRTs are teams of mental healthcare professionals, such as psychiatrists and psychiatric nurses, who work with people experiencing severe psychological and emotional distress.
While waiting for help to arrive, remove any possible means of suicide from the person's immediate environment, such as medication, knives or other sharp objects, household chemicals, such as bleach and ropes or belts.

I dont know what the equivalent advice in the USA is but I would imagine there would be a similar team of mental healthcare experts ready to come out. The good thing about this is - the whole story will come out - a mental healthcare worker will be assigned to the person who is threatening self harm - I expect a full diagnosis would take place and that is something that might be very helpful to the OP. It is also highly likely where there are children - social workers will come in to ensure the needs of the child are being met. This could also result in the child being taken into care if the authorities have no confidence in the parents to protect the interests of the child. So if dad cant stop mum from ranting and raging, threatening suicide etc - I expect there might be some serious legal issues. I'm surprised in fact that in the two times the OP says the police have visited in the past - they did not refer on to social care services (or whatever you have in usa) - they certainly would have done here in the UK. They would then put the family under assessment and certainly refer on anybody who has threatened self harm to a team of mental healthcare professionals.

[flourdust]

I dont know what the equivalent advice in the USA is but I would imagine there would be a similar team of mental healthcare experts ready to come out.

The OP is in the US. As you say, you don't know how these services work in the US. Here, it varies depending on location. There may be a local crisis line that can provide physical services, or one may call 911 for general emergency services. Depending on the locale and the severity of the situation, dispatched services may include police, paramedics, or social services. It's best not to assume that how things work in your country are how they work elsewhere.

[prof]

We live in a pretty rural area, so there are not the sorts of resources you'd find in a more urban setting.

I found this out firsthand when dealing with my bipolar mother.  I grew up in a midsize midwestern city.  There were several times when she was picked up by police during a manic episode and was quickly transferred to an appropriate mental health facility.

However, when I was in grad school, she had a manic episode which resulted in her driving halfway across the country.  Her car broke down in a rural area.  After having a run-in with the police, she was sent to the county jail.

[prof]

now that's one area where yours differs from mine - mine keeps her b/s for the family behind closed doors - she is sweetness itself in front of everyone else.

She later blamed me for arguing in front of the mail lady.

[flourdust]

This thread has reached its posting limit, and is therefore locked. Please feel free to continue the discussion in a new thread. Thanks for your participation.

[prof]

Old thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=310633.0

TL:)R:  uBPDw and I are both very unhappy, but her medical issues/suicide threats/distance from family have kept me from leaving


The old thread was locked a few days ago.  Things have been slightly less insane (no 911 calls and fewer all-night arguments).  But it's time for an update.

We canceled the marriage counseling appointment last week.  uBPDw had been up late with anxiety and wouldn't have been able to get up in time to go.  (It's a two-hour drive to get there, as she doesn't trust doctors or therapists in our rural area.  And she requires lots of time to get ready to leave the house.  In particular, she wants to cover her scars with cosmetics.  The scars are from lesions related to her illness and also lots of anxiety-induced picking.)  We also likely didn't have enough money to pay.

We rescheduled for the next week.  We'll see if that happens -- she's convinced it's pointless as I "won't listen".  (We do have the money now -- I got paid at the end of last week.)

uBPDw's biggest complaint of me is that I "never spend any time with her".  (From my point of view, I spend an exhausting amount of time with her.  But its true that there's very little fun, bonding experiences.  Our time seems to be primarily me taking care of her basic needs, listening to her opine about how horrible her life is, and me JADEing when the latter turns to about how I'm the one making her life horrible.)  So I printed out a list of a bunch of questions spouses could ask each other to kick-start fun conversations, i.e., pro-actively create this time that our relationship was lacking.

I had a bunch of grocery shopping to do, and my plan was for us to set aside a couple hours to start working through these questions afterwards.  Well, a morning shopping trip turned into a late afternoon/evening shopping trip after I overslept (late night the night before), dealt with all of our foster kittens, listened to uBPDw's depressed ramblings, etc.

My shopping trips are always pretty long.  (We live 20 min from town, so that's 40 min drive time already.  I like to save money, so I buy as much as possible at Wal-Mart.  uBPDw won't eat their produce or meat, so afterwards I go to a higher end local chain for that stuff.)

But we've also started a vegan diet that supposedly will help uBPDw's auto-immune disorder.  For the life of me, I could not find some of these more esoteric ingredients.  (What the heck is agar agar?)  I also went to a couple other stores.  (Home Depot for a nut that was missing from S4's swingset -- yeah, it's still not completely built yet -- and a particular pharmacy with uBPDw's favorite bandaids.)

Long story short, I got home around 9:00 pm.  The whole time, I was thinking I was helping uBPDw out by doing all this shopping, especially with the new diet.  She even called me towards the end and seemed quite content.  We frequently stay up late, so I thought the time was no big deal.

But when I got home, she was livid.  The promised two hours of quality time spent together was completely shot, and turned into four hours of her raging and me JADEing.

Yesterday, we were distracted by the kitten fosters.  One of them had turned very sick and was very clearly dying.  We stayed up with him and eventually started talking about possible ways to ease his suffering.  uBPDw called the ER vet and they suggested one way ("I really shouldn't be telling you this... ."  We crushed up a half of one of uBPDw's oxycodones, mixed it with water, and I fed it to him.

It didn't work, at least not quickly.  It just gave him seizures.  After a couple more hours, uBPDw smothered him.  She immediately felt extreme regret and guilt.  She actually poured the rest of her oxyocodones into her hand and started bringing them to her mouth.  She didn't resist at all as I stopped her.  (Usually, she does.)  We spent the next hour or so burying him as she screamed "I killed him!" while I reassured her that she did the right thing.

Finally we went to sleep as the sun came up.  (Fortunately, S4 had also been up pretty late so I still got some sleep.)

uBPDw had a doctor's appointment scheduled today, the one that prescribes her oxycodone/oxycontin.  And it's also two hours away.  There's no way she was making it with our sleep schedules so out of whack.

I managed to reschedule it, but it's for the same day I was planning on leaving with S4 for the camping trip I have been looking forward to.  This gives uBPDw just one more reason to keep me in the FOG and cancel the trip... .

[DaddyBear77]

Hey prof, glad you continued this thread. Good to hear from you again.

Yesterday, we were distracted by the kitten fosters.  One of them had turned very sick and was very clearly dying.  

First of all, I have to be honest, it was REALLY hard to read about your kittens. I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I think your pwBPD's reaction of extreme regret and guilt is one that would be expected with anyone, including me.

I'm going to ask a tough question - when it became clear that a more drastic approach needed to be taken with the kitten, why did your pwBPD take that step vs you? Was it by mutual agreement? Did she think it was a necessary step but you disagreed? Or did you insist that she take that step and encourage her to take the responsibility? How would things look if you had been the one to take the final step with the kitten instead of your pwBPD?

I'm asking this about the kitten because how we act in the most difficult times of crisis often provide true insights, and this particular crisis was extreme but not personal the way the moments of crisis are between you and your pwBPD (e.g., the suicide threats). Thinking about how and why things played out the way they did with the kitten might provide you some deeper insight into yourself, your belief systems, and how you interact with your pwBPD.

Finally,

uBPDw had a doctor's appointment scheduled today, the one that prescribes her oxycodone/oxycontin.  And it's also two hours away.  There's no way she was making it with our sleep schedules so out of whack.

I managed to reschedule it, but it's for the same day I was planning on leaving with S4 for the camping trip I have been looking forward to.  This gives uBPDw just one more reason to keep me in the FOG and cancel the trip... .

... .I would VERY STRONGLY encourage you to go out of your way to find accommodations for your uBPDw that do not interfere with your camping trip. Appointments can be re-rescheduled. As far as I know, oxycodone is still being manufactured, and it sounds like you have a supply anyway (side note: maybe this needs to be reconsidered?). There may be other people who can drive uBPDw back and forth (suggestion: uBPDw can drive uBPDw? Maybe?).

But S4 is only S4 for one summer. Ever. Period. You miss the Summer of S4, and that's gone. Forever.

You might be able to guess why I say this: My little brother asked me to be his best man in his wedding. For various reasons, my uBPDw strenuously objected, so I declined. I DECLINED! And not only did I decline, but I let my uBPDw convince me NOT TO ATTEND MY BROTHER'S WEDDING at ALL! Not just decline being my brother's best man, but to not even show up at his wedding? I STILL can't believe I did that. I feel guilty every day for doing that. It will always be one of my biggest regrets.

Please check your gut and make sure you're not about to make the same mistake.

[formflier]

Prof,

I used to live rural on a farm... .with my pwBPD.  The bad stuff didn't show up until after we have lived rural for a while.  So... .I sympathize.

Big picture stuff... .

If she has special needs, let her shop and get the ingredients.  If you want to be the provider... .make normal stuff... .perhaps a bit of extra for her.

She will make it a no win... .so... .save your energy.

Let her experience the natural and logical consequences of her choices and her diet.

If she does begin to "appreciate" your shopping trips... .perhaps you do more.  Reward good behavior... .don't "validate" bad.

Given the drama... .can you get yourself out of being responsible for other things... .like foster kittens.

Do you really have the energy for that?

Looking forward to getting to know you better.

FF (ex rural farmer... .among other things)

[prof]

I'm going to ask a tough question - when it became clear that a more drastic approach needed to be taken with the kitten, why did your pwBPD take that step vs you? Was it by mutual agreement? Did she think it was a necessary step but you disagreed? Or did you insist that she take that step and encourage her to take the responsibility? How would things look if you had been the one to take the final step with the kitten instead of your pwBPD?

I'm asking this about the kitten because how we act in the most difficult times of crisis often provide true insights, and this particular crisis was extreme but not personal the way the moments of crisis are between you and your pwBPD (e.g., the suicide threats). Thinking about how and why things played out the way they did with the kitten might provide you some deeper insight into yourself, your belief systems, and how you interact with your pwBPD.

uBPDw definitely took the lead.  If it were only me, I would have probably waited for nature to take its course.

You're right about the insight.  She tends to take more drastic, pro-active measures to handle the issues that come up in her life.  I have a much more laid-back, take life as it comes, way of dealing with what happens.  But when we deal with something together, I generally defer to her.

Finally,... .I would VERY STRONGLY encourage you to go out of your way to find accommodations for your uBPDw that do not interfere with your camping trip. Appointments can be re-rescheduled. As far as I know, oxycodone is still being manufactured, and it sounds like you have a supply anyway (side note: maybe this needs to be reconsidered?). There may be other people who can drive uBPDw back and forth (suggestion: uBPDw can drive uBPDw? Maybe?).

But S4 is only S4 for one summer. Ever. Period. You miss the Summer of S4, and that's gone. Forever.

You might be able to guess why I say this: My little brother asked me to be his best man in his wedding. For various reasons, my uBPDw strenuously objected, so I declined. I DECLINED! And not only did I decline, but I let my uBPDw convince me NOT TO ATTEND MY BROTHER'S WEDDING at ALL! Not just decline being my brother's best man, but to not even show up at his wedding? I STILL can't believe I did that. I feel guilty every day for doing that. It will always be one of my biggest regrets.

Please check your gut and make sure you're not about to make the same mistake.

My dad told me pretty much the same thing on the phone yesterday.  I need this.  I'm just afraid to push against uBPDw to make it happen.

Given the drama... .can you get yourself out of being responsible for other things... .like foster kittens.

Do you really have the energy for that?

Lol, another thing my dad said on the phone yesterday.

And another argument I'm afraid to have with uBPDw.  The kittens are pretty much what's keeping her going right now.  She's so frustrated with what she sees as the loss of her career due to her illness and our moves and her relationship with me and S4.  The kittens are what's getting her out of bed.

[DaddyBear77]

The kittens are pretty much what's keeping her going right now.
... .The kittens are what's getting her out of bed.

Have you considered that the kittens might be a way to distract her from the more important issues at hand? Why doesn't S4 keep her going right now? Why don't medical appointments necessary for her continued health get her out of bed?

[Jim579]

My condolences as well, Prof.  I also live in a rural area.  There are fewer options during a crisis.  Everything just takes longer, doesn't it?  I'm sorry there were no easy solutions with the kitten.  The combined elements within your specific situation sounded excruciating.

I have only recently read up on codependency (... .there have been so many topics, including BPD, that I've been trying to catch up on).  The kinds of scenarios you describe seem almost identical to mine.  I hear you.  I hear you.  I hear you.

I have run myself ragged trying to meet every request, including extra stops for specialty items.  I have to remind myself (this is a recent/current exercise) that I cannot accomplish all of these requests without paying a price... .somewhere.  If it's at the end of a long day, say, at work--well, fatigue may be a real issue.  Is a fender-bender going to be something I'm ready to deal with, in exchange for a special flavor of Snapple being available to my partner on that *specific* day?  I can't always answer this question immediately, alas... .  Right now, as I write this, in peace, the answer seems obvious.  Less so during a Herricane.

My dad told me pretty much the same thing on the phone yesterday.  I need this.  I'm just afraid to push against uBPDw to make it happen.

There you go--you've just said what you need.  How can you carry through with your plans?

When your wife is at her best, wouldn't she also want members of her immediate family to have these experiences? i.e. S4, yourself, herself (if she's into that).  Question:  why would you need to push against her to make a healthy experience happen?

And another argument I'm afraid to have with uBPDw.  The kittens are pretty much what's keeping her going right now.  She's so frustrated with what she sees as the loss of her career due to her illness and our moves and her relationship with me and S4.  The kittens are what's getting her out of bed.

This sounds like a generally good thing.  We all need reasons to get out of bed, and it sounds like a good service to provide.

Where does the argument come in?  Is this her enterprise, or has it become yours?

I truly know how trying this can be.  Hang in there.

[formflier]

What would "push against" look like?

What if you just did it?

How did the decision get made to get kittens?

FF

[AnuDay]

Wow this is the most sadistic BPD experience that I have read here so far. 
BPD rage
BPD manipulation
OXYcodone
AND killing kittens!

Thank you for sharing, but this is insane.   

And then she had the audacity to make you feel guilty for killing the kitten!

How do you protect yourself and maintain ANY level of sanity in this type of relationship?

Where did the Oxy come from?  Does your BPDw need that for maintenance/anxiety? 

... .and all this time I thought my BPDgf was insane when she laughed after our daughter burned herself. 

Energy is something that is brought up a lot in this thread. 
Dealing with BPDs can be incredibly draining.  The arguments, the manipulation, the rage.  Personally I have found that if I make a boundary and stick with it I have to defend it with everything that I have.  I am not going to keep getting encroached upon.  No matter how much energy I use.  Believe me, the BPDs need energy too.  I find that once I let them encroach they will encroach further.  Yes, I have missed weddings, funerals, and birthday parties due to my BPDgf.  It's not happening again.  It doesn't cost the relationship, because at the point that you can't go to your own family's events, the relationship is gone anyways. 

[Grey Kitty]

We canceled the marriage counseling appointment last week.  uBPDw had been up late with anxiety and wouldn't have been able to get up in time to go.  (It's a two-hour drive to get there, as she doesn't trust doctors or therapists in our rural area.

Be very wary of these drives. Many members have been in the car for a 2-hour (or even 8-hour!) rage from their partner. It is really horrible because you ARE trapped. If you are driving, you can pull over and stop or get out of the car, which is difficult to find the strength to do, and ever worse as a passenger.

I STRONGLY suggest you take separate cars to the MC sessions.

If there is any progress in the session, it will be a challenge to your wife, and her typical response to an internal challenge or anything difficult in her life is to rage at you.

Pro-tip: Make it about yourself, not about her: "I think MC is going to be difficult for me. I'll need time alone to think about it. If I ride back with you, I'm sure I'll say something I'll regret later."

Bonus--it is truthful... .even if you are afraid she will cause the problems, not you... .I know when I've been trapped in a car, I've said things I regretted during my wife's attacks on me! MANY times!

[SamwizeGamgee]

GK - you give good advice. After being pretty much trained in life to think about others, we can also see what happens when it goes too far, and we stop thinking about ourselves.  I too have an objective of advocating for myself more.  
As for the driving, I think you make a good point.  The honesty is healthy and I think we all can relate to the idea that we would say something wrong after an appointment.  I know I feel more vulnerable after a T session and benefit from time alone to reconstruct what happened.  I believe also that for some reason guys seem to think really well when driving / walking / running for long distances.  It seems to be an active time for reflection, and can be very valuable after his MC appt.  

@AnuDay - I'm with you on your assessment.  I missed part I, and was struck by this thread out of the blue with killing cats, and rages, and drugs (the BPD mood swings I was ready for).  Sometimes an outsider can see the big picture differently!

[prof]

Have you considered that the kittens might be a way to distract her from the more important issues at hand? Why doesn't S4 keep her going right now? Why don't medical appointments necessary for her continued health get her out of bed?

S4 is, of course, 4.  This comes with pushing his own boundaries, complete with talking back.  (His favorite is to tell us to "not do that again!" when we ask him to stop doing something like jump on the couch.)  uBPDw really doesn't like that.  She misses cute little S0-S3 who didn't do this.

The doctor's appointments require a 2-hour drive (4-hour round trip), and she claims that she's in too much pain to be in the car for that long.  She's also angry at many of her doctors for not figuring out how to make her feel better.  We spent the holidays at one of the most well-known and prestigious clinics in the country, and even those doctors ticked her off.

There you go--you've just said what you need.  How can you carry through with your plans?

When your wife is at her best, wouldn't she also want members of her immediate family to have these experiences? i.e. S4, yourself, herself (if she's into that).  Question:  why would you need to push against her to make a healthy experience happen?

I need to spend some money first to get my car fixed to make the drive.  Every time I bring up fixing my car, she starts going on about how we only need one car.  (Which is true right now.  I'm working from home over the summer, and she's refusing to drive due to the frequent fainting.)  But with a fixed car, it would be pretty easy to pack my stuff, throw S4 in the car, and head out.

When she's at her best, she's absolutely ok with the trip.  At one point, she was going too.

However, right now she's at one of the lowest points in our r/s.  She's uncomfortable when I leave the house for a couple hours right now for multiple reasons:  she might pass out and hurt herself in the fall, I wouldn't be there to prevent a suicide attempt, or I might be going to another meeting with the divorce lawyer.  A three-day camping trip seems like a non-starter.

This sounds like a generally good thing.  We all need reasons to get out of bed, and it sounds like a good service to provide.

Where does the argument come in?  Is this her enterprise, or has it become yours?

We share the work with the kittens pretty well -- I'd say close to 50/50.  However, 50% of our current load (there were 27 cats in the house prior to the death the other night), is still a lot!

What would "push against" look like?

What if you just did it?

I'm positive there would be some epic raging, complete with suicide treats.

How did the decision get made to get kittens?

It kind of snowballed.  Her weed dealer crashed at our place for a couple weeks a month or so ago, and she was fostering 4 kittens.  One got a home, one we adopted, but we're still fostering the other two.  (Although it looks like uBPDw's flute student is going to adopt these.)

We found two more kittens near our house a short time later.  I contacted a local rescue (who we adopted two cats from last fall), and we agreed to foster them until they could be transported to a no-kill shelter out of state.

At this point, I was was very content with the quantity of kittens in our home.

However, we've since obtained three more litters (two with moms) through another friend of uBPDw's and through our local shelter.  I hesitantly agreed to the first two, and was pretty angry with uBPDw about the third.  But she's excellent at getting her way in the end.

Wow this is the most sadistic BPD experience that I have read here so far. 
BPD rage
BPD manipulation
OXYcodone
AND killing kittens!

Thank you for sharing, but this is insane.   

Thank you -- even if this wasn't your intent, your post made me laugh!  It was good to smile about everything for a second.

And then she had the audacity to make you feel guilty for killing the kitten!

She hasn't made me feel guilty at all -- she's the one that feels incredibly guilty.

One story I don't think I've shared yet:  When we were in grad school, her best friend was murdered by a professor.  uBPDw was heavily involved in the events leading up to the murder (complaints to administration, etc.).  uBPDw feels complicit, wishes she had done more, and blames herself.  The kitten brought all these emotions back to the surface.

Where did the Oxy come from?  Does your BPDw need that for maintenance/anxiety?

For dealing with pain from her auto-immune disease.

Be very wary of these drives. Many members have been in the car for a 2-hour (or even 8-hour!) rage from their partner. It is really horrible because you ARE trapped. If you are driving, you can pull over and stop or get out of the car, which is difficult to find the strength to do, and ever worse as a passenger.

I STRONGLY suggest you take separate cars to the MC sessions.

If there is any progress in the session, it will be a challenge to your wife, and her typical response to an internal challenge or anything difficult in her life is to rage at you.

Pro-tip: Make it about yourself, not about her: "I think MC is going to be difficult for me. I'll need time alone to think about it. If I ride back with you, I'm sure I'll say something I'll regret later."

Bonus--it is truthful... .even if you are afraid she will cause the problems, not you... .I know when I've been trapped in a car, I've said things I regretted during my wife's attacks on me! MANY times!

Great advice -- thank you!  The MC session has actually been rescheduled again.   We scheduled an appointment with an older doctor that she actually likes (and only 1.5 hours away instead of 2!) for the same time.  She's convinced she'll end up admitted to the hospital.  We'll see.

Thanks everyone!

[Grey Kitty]

First, yes, fix your car. You don't need her to agree, just do it.

There's an odd thing pwBPD do--they work REALLY HARD to undermine our independence and freedom. To isolate us from outside people who might question their insanity. It is pretty much a brainwashing tactic... .and it actually works disturbingly well. The odd thing is that she probably doesn't realize that she's doing it, why she's doing, or any of that... .but without any conscious, manipulative intent, she does it anyways. Consistently. And you will have to FIGHT to get past it. Just know that is how it will go.

The doctor's appointments require a 2-hour drive (4-hour round trip), and she claims that she's in too much pain to be in the car for that long.  She's also angry at many of her doctors for not figuring out how to make her feel better.  We spent the holidays at one of the most well-known and prestigious clinics in the country, and even those doctors ticked her off.

Again... .part of the disorder. Anything she can do to find fault external to herself. Find some way to reject the medical treatment she needs. Has the bonus of prolonging her misery/pain/discomfort and blaming things outside herself.

This, however, is her choice--it is her health, it is her medical condition, and her doctor(s). You cannot force her to make a good choice if she doesn't want to. Offer her (gently) a few good options if she is receptive, but let her make her own choices, even if they harm her.

As opposed to the first category--don't let her make choices that hamstring you!

[formflier]

For clarity's sake.  Do you have a barn or outbuilding where animals are kept.  The cats/kittens.

Or are they all in the house?

Am I right that there are 26 of them now?   Are all spayed and neutered? 

FF

[prof]

For clarity's sake.  Do you have a barn or outbuilding where animals are kept.  The cats/kittens.

Or are they all in the house?

Am I right that there are 26 of them now?   Are all spayed and neutered? 

In the house.  And yes, 26.  6 adults (4 of our cats, 2 nursing mothers) and 20 kittens.  Our cats are all neutered.  The nursing mothers will be spayed after the kittens are weaned, and the kittens are all too young to spay/neuter, but will be.

[AnuDay]

Prof, you need to listen.  I dont know if you have kids together or how many women are in your area, but this is the worst BPD r/s Ive read on here (I havent read many).  You must read many many articles and get therapy to regain yourself.  You NEED a car. A man NEEDS a car, especially in a rural area.  
Grey Kitty is right.  The BPD will try to strip you of any means you have of leaving them.  This includes the right to work, the right to travel, and even your manhood.  They want you by their side 24/7.  They want you to be like their children that will never leave them.  Are you willing to give your life and your sons life to this woman?  BPDs take energy in general.  This one sounds like she will need an awful lot.

[prof]

Ho boy.

Last night, we tried asking each other those questions I had printed off to kick-start conversations and try and spend quality time together.

Practically every single question reminded her of how depressed she is and/or how bad our marriage is.  So we stopped.  The conversation turned back to the kitten from the other night.  In an earlier post, I had said that she wasn't trying to make me feel guilty about it, but apparently she only hadn't tried to make me feel guilty yet.

The night it happened, she tried handing me the kitten right before she smothered him.  I told her that I'd take him right after I went to the bathroom.  I was only gone a minute, but when I got back, he was gone.

It came out last night that she really didn't want to do what she was about to do, and was trying to let me take him before it happened.  She had only said something along the lines of, "I really need you to take him."  I understood that as, "I'm really sad about this dying kitten -- will you please hold him for a while?".  But apparently what she meant was, "If you don't take him right now, then I will kill him and that will make me incredibly sad."  My need to go to the bathroom was pretty urgent.  So I did that first, thinking I was about to be holding the kitten for a while.

This exchang turned into another accusation of me putting her "second to everything".  For some reason, this made me really angry, so I decided to leave for a little while to cool down. 

As she almost always does, she followed me.  (What I see as giving myself some space to cool down and avoid hurting her, she sees as malicious action intended to hurt her.)  I got into my car and started the engine, but she held the door open.  I repeatedly asked her to close the door, but she continued raging.  I mostly ignored her, trying to give myself the opportunity to relax to some extent.

Finally, I was relaxed enough to agree to go inside.  I listened to her rage for a while ("You're making me miss tomorrow's doctor's appointment by ramping up my anxiety!  I won't get to sleep for hours!", etc.).  Eventually, I noticed it was 2:30 and asked her to let me go to sleep.

This didn't go well, and eventually led to me trying to get back into my car.  It was clear she wasn't going to let me drive off, so I just walked away.  As I was going down the street, I could hear her pulling.  "Come back!  I'll let you go to sleep!"

As I've said, we live a pretty rural area.  It would take me hours to walk anywhere, so I eventually circled back around home.

She was still next to my car, smoking and crying.  I held her for a while, and eventually announced that I was going to go inside and get some sleep.  I invited her to join me, but she told me she would sleep outside.

I laid down in our bed, and a few minutes later she joined me.  As I was nodding off, she asked me to say goodbye.  I looked at her hand, and it was filled with pills -- several different kinds.

I called the suicide prevention hotline.  They told me to call 911, and I did.

The dispatcher stayed on the line until the sheriff deputies arrived.  During this time, uBPDw raged at me for trying to get her busted for weed so I could get custody of S4 (I had no intention of mentioning her weed), went to her car announcing that she was going to leave (she opened the door and stood there raging for a while, but never actually got in), and finally went back in the house and locked the door.  I had my key, but the dispatcher suggested I remain outside.

Two deputies arrived.  One went inside and talked to her while the other and I made small talk on the porch.  A little while later, they left.  The deputy that spoke to her saw it for what it was -- a play for attention.

We argued for a little while longer, but finally I fell asleep on the couch.  At one point, she woke me up after apparently burning herself on a plate from the microwave.  I suppose I moved to our bed at this point, since that's where I woke up this morning.  (I was pretty tired, and don't really remember moving back!)

S4 woke me up a little while ago.

[formflier]

Dude,

Good job on calling 911.  

Your wife is worried about getting busted for weed and that would "cause" her to loose the kid, because it would... .and she is also worried about how the outside world would view her care of the child and the environment the child is in... .

Because they (the outside word... .authorities) would take a dim view of this.

Please don't take any of the following as "judging"... .take this as a frank view of where you are at and the risk you and your family are in.

Also, I'm a guy that has personally called CPS (I actually did the report in person) on my wife.  She wouldn't stop "corporal punishment" (it had gone way over the line).  That process really sucked... .bad.  My family did come out the other end in better shape.  Still lots of challenges.

BLUF:  (Botton Line Up Front) You need local support (a T or DV advocate) to help you navigate whether or not you need to take action and what kind of action to take.

I'm not suggesting you SHOULD call or you shouldn't.  You do need a good understanding of how the local system and laws work.

Who can that trusted local person be?  Hopefully you have options.

Last comment for now.  I would stop (for now) trying to use lists or other things to improve conversation and/or the r/s.  Focus your time on learning about boundaries, validation, invalidation... .etc etc.  And the importance of using those new tools consistently

Improvement in your relationship will come from ways that are likely "counter-intuitive" to you (based on where your knowledge of BPD is at the moment).  As you saw... .a "pleasant" list... .triggered all kinds of stuff... .

Hang in there man... .take care of yourself first.  Get your sleep.  

FF

[BeagleGirl]

Prof,
I'm so sorry you went through all of that.  You must be dead on your feet.

I know that anything I suggest will be done so without a full understanding of how incredibly difficult it would be, but I'd like to offer a few questions for you to think through.

-Could/would you work with a mental health provider to have your wife committed to a 72 hour hold and evaluation?  The repeated suicide threats should qualify as "threat to self".
-What is your support system?  Is there anyone that could be asked to stay with BPDw while you go on the camping trip with S4?
-Do you believe/know that your wife is mentally ill?
-Do you want decision about your life/your son's life to be made by someone who is mentally ill?
-Do you want decisions about your life/your son's life to be made by the state or child protective services?
-Did allowing 26 cats into your home make her happy for more than the few minutes after the arguement?  Keep her from threatening suicide?  Provide a reasonable amount of emotional comfort when compared to the physical/emotional/financial drain of caring for them?
-Will BPDw like S4 any better when he is S11 and gets the smart a$$ attitude that 11 year old boys get (in my experience)?  Will she like him any better when he's S14 and competing with her for the price of least emotionally stable?
-Does S4's behavior give her a valid reason to stop caring for him and making his well-being a priority?

Some of those questions are a bit rhetorical but I think you need to answer them because, while the answers may seem self evident, your behaviors/decisions contradict what you will probably give as answers.  

I can imagine that you feel like you are in a hole so deep that you can't see an exit, much less a way to start moving out of it.  There are several other posters who are in similar situations (DaddyBear77 comes to mind) and I think that we all find ourselves in those holes at times.  The hard truth is that there is no easy answer.  There is no way to resolve all the issues in one fell swoop.  There are tools, but they don't always work, or may take continual and consistent use to become effective.  

From the outside looking in, I see a desperate need for you to get some space to think through your situation, whether that be the camping trip with S4 or getting your BPDw committed on a 72 hour hold or finding someone in your support system who can take your place in care taking for a couple days.  You need time to sleep (we don't make good decisions when sleep deprived), decompress, inventory, and start building a plan.  This site helps with the inventory and can provide some ideas on what a plan might look like, but without the rest and time to think through and really OWN a plan, you are unlikely to be able to do much more than slap band-aids on a gaping wound.

I can only imagine the exhaustion and overwhelming emotions you are dealing with right now.  This is so much more than one person can handle on their own.          
BeagleGirl

[Lucky Jim]

Hey prof, Sorry to hear.  I had many nights like that with my BPDxW, who threatened suicide many times, so I can relate.  You did the right thing by calling 911.  I don't miss the drama, which seems a central theme to virtually every BPD r/s.  Suggest you do what you need to do to take care of yourself.  Get some rest!  You can't function like this, as I'm sure you know already.

LuckyJim

[prof]

Thanks everyone for your support!

uBPDw woke up a couple hours after me and immediately wanted to resume last night's discussion/argument.  I was busy feeding kittens, doing dishes, and holding chat room office hours for my online students, so after some attempts at validating her and acknowledging that I hurt her by attempting to leave last night (which angered her further), I calmly asked to continue the discussion later and went back to what I was doing.

She was in the bathroom smoking and called me back twice.  The first time, she asked for help getting back to bed.  I was in the middle of feeding one of the mother cats, so I called out that it would take a moment.  When I got there, she was still smoking and wasn't ready to go back to bed yet.  I told her to let me know when she was ready and resumed what I was doing.

A few minutes later, I heard her cries for help.  She had supposedly fallen/passed out while getting up and was sprawled out on the bathroom floor.  I have often suspected that her passing out spells have been largely fabricated to get my attention, and the timing here was just too perfect.

She initially refused my help to stand back up, so I again told her to let me know when she was ready to get up and resumed my chores.  A moment later, she stormed out into the kitchen and began screaming at me for dismissing her feelings and hurting her by walking away.  S4 was nearby on the couch and could see and hear everything.  I asked her not to behave like this in front of him.

She demanded that I leave, but then immediately stood in front of the door as if to block my path.  She did let me out, and I ran to my car quickly to try and avoid another blocked door attempt.  My car was locked, so there wasn't enough time before she could get there.

She then began pushing me in anger.  I backed away and got my phone to begin video recording.  I think she realized what I was doing and she let me get in the car and drive away, demanding that I not come back.


I drove to my office and had a lengthy phone conversation with my dad.  He's been the voice of reason throughout the past few weeks, and often echos the comments I see here.  He desperately wants to see me happy and is in full support of divorce.

My plan was to get my car fixed this afternoon.  (It has three bald tires and desperately needs an alignment.  I'm barely comfortable driving around town, and definitely don't want to drive four hours to go camping this weekend in its current state.)  However, I had sleepily agreed to let uBPDw transfer some of my money into her account last night while she was threatening to leave me.  (Her current backup plan is to drive to our maid of honor's house and stay there -- two days away -- so she would need some gas/food/hotel money for the trip.)  There wasn't enough left for what I need.  I went to transfer the money back, but she had changed her password to her bank account.  I changed mine as well, and resigned myself to getting the tires/alignment the morning of the trip when I get paid.

I spent some time doing a couple things for my well-being.  (Chinese buffet for a late lunch -- a guilty pleasure of mine that uBPDw can't stand.  And I found a couple geocaches near my office.  Geocaching was something we started doing as a family last summer, but uBPDw refuses to do when she doesn't feel well and gets angry if I do them alone.)  And now I'm writing this.

I need to get home for S4's sake.  But I'm not looking forward to tonight.

[AnuDay]

Sigh... .our lives... .
Why do we do this?
Why do we want to continue to do this?
Me, personally, I do it for the kids.

There's tons of great advice on this thread.  Separation would be good.  I get a lot of clarity when we're apart.  The first day or week is hard, but then the insight and strength comes.  Your wife is so far gone that you will have to implement the advice in this thread in baby steps.  In other words your wife has pushed the boundary so far that just to get halfway to center will be a challenge.  But you must take back control of your life.  She will fight you every step of the way.