Can a BPD ever acknowledge hurting someone else?

[Depression = 72% of members]

I am a man with an undiagnosed BPD female partner, in a long-term relationship.  Of all of the challenges, the one that I am most hopeless about is her inability even to acknowledge that her actions can be harmful to me and other people.

I have tried raising some examples to her in the most non-blaming, factual, unemotional, and compassionate ways possible, along the lines of, "I know that when you do X it is not intentional, and that you would never want to hurt me, and that doing X may not even be under your control, but when you do X it is hurtful to me."

This can result not just in denial but in explosive rage followed by extended silent treatment (hours or days), followed by her going back to normal as if nothing had happened.

Of course you can imagine that when I do something hurtful to her, no matter how minor, and even if unintentional, I am expected to be subjected to all kinds of hostile attacks on my character and to apologize profusely.

Of all the problems in the relationship, right now this one is standing out to me as the one that has shown no signs of improving (we have both made many efforts to improve the relationship) and I am wondering whether with a BPD if I should expect this particular behavior never to change or even improve at all.

I get the feeling that inside she feels that if she were ever to admit to any fault, no matter how minor, it would mean she is the worst person on the planet (black and white thinking), and therefore she denies any responsibility for hurting me.  At this point I can feel empathy for her if that is what is going on for her, but I am also wondering what I can tolerate if it is true that this way of thinking and behaving will never change.

Has anyone seen a BPD become capable of admitting that their behavior can hurt other people?  I'm not talking about feeling bad about themselves for it ("I'm a horrible bad person for doing X", I'm talking about truly acknowledging that it hurts someone else.

[TRB]

I am a man with an undiagnosed BPD female partner, in a long-term relationship.  Of all of the challenges, the one that I am most hopeless about is her inability even to acknowledge that her actions can be harmful to me and other people.

I have tried raising some examples to her in the most non-blaming, factual, unemotional, and compassionate ways possible, along the lines of, "I know that when you do X it is not intentional, and that you would never want to hurt me, and that doing X may not even be under your control, but when you do X it is hurtful to me."

This can result not just in denial but in explosive rage followed by extended silent treatment (hours or days), followed by her going back to normal as if nothing had happened.

Of course you can imagine that when I do something hurtful to her, no matter how minor, and even if unintentional, I am expected to be subjected to all kinds of hostile attacks on my character and to apologize profusely.

Of all the problems in the relationship, right now this one is standing out to me as the one that has shown no signs of improving (we have both made many efforts to improve the relationship) and I am wondering whether with a BPD if I should expect this particular behavior never to change or even improve at all.

I get the feeling that inside she feels that if she were ever to admit to any fault, no matter how minor, it would mean she is the worst person on the planet (black and white thinking), and therefore she denies any responsibility for hurting me.  At this point I can feel empathy for her if that is what is going on for her, but I am also wondering what I can tolerate if it is true that this way of thinking and behaving will never change.

Has anyone seen a BPD become capable of admitting that their behavior can hurt other people?  I'm not talking about feeling bad about themselves for it ("I'm a horrible bad person for doing X", I'm talking about truly acknowledging that it hurts someone else.

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[Meili]

Yes, I've seen it happen. My dBPDexw contacted me and apologized for her behavior when we were married.

But, here's the thing, BPD is a spectrum disorder. Each individual with BPD has his or her own, unique set of traits. There are many overlaps and parallels that we experience because our SOs fall somewhere on the spectrum, but they are still unique individuals as different from one another as the rest of us. This applies not only to the traits, but also the severity of the traits.

I know how frustrating it is to not get an apology or the validation that we seek from our loved ones. That can change by our changing how we approach the situation. It really helps when we understand what BPD is and why our SOs act as they do. It takes a deep understanding to help belay the frustrations in my experience.

When you better understand why they do what they do, it makes Communicating and Being Heard much easier.

[once removed]

hey TRB,

it can be exhausting and frustrating when your partner doesnt own that they have hurt you. i recall that my ex would often give some pretty gracious apologies; if i felt i needed to discuss more however, it would either reescalate things, or she would become pretty ashamed, and neither was productive or constructive.

I get the feeling that inside she feels that if she were ever to admit to any fault, no matter how minor, it would mean she is the worst person on the planet (black and white thinking), and therefore she denies any responsibility for hurting me.  

you are probably right in this. massive shame is at the core of BPD. so in essence, she probably struggles with acknowledging that she hurt you because to her, it would be the equivalent of acknowledging she is "all bad".

avoid the trap of trying to be on equal footing when it comes to perceptions of who hurts who, or how, as its likely to produce more of the same.

how do your boundaries look? when she does x (hurtful action) what is your y (response or non response)?

[lovesherfam]

hey TRB,

it can be exhausting and frustrating when your partner doesnt own that they have hurt you. i recall that my ex would often give some pretty gracious apologies; if i felt i needed to discuss more however, it would either reescalate things, or she would become pretty ashamed, and neither was productive or constructive.

you are probably right in this. massive shame is at the core of BPD. so in essence, she probably struggles with acknowledging that she hurt you because to her, it would be the equivalent of acknowledging she is "all bad".

avoid the trap of trying to be on equal footing when it comes to perceptions of who hurts who, or how, as its likely to produce more of the same.

Exactly

how do your boundaries look? when she does x (hurtful action) what is your y (response or non response)?

[TRB]

You obviously know your stuff to ask about my boundaries.     This is a very long term relationship (many years) and I would say that until the last few years I did not assert any boundaries.  Looking back I can see how this contributed to the situation escalating.  You ask when she did X, what did I do?  Most often I would do nothing.  Just sit there, or go along with her demand, or act like nothing happened and then on my own I would stew in silence, anger, or resentment.

Then a few years ago, as a result of a combination of my own insights and help from friends, family, and professionals, I started asserting boundaries.  Initially this just resulted in more explosions, but at least I was not caving in to acting like everything was OK.  In some cases the boundary setting would "work," in the sense that she would eventually back down or change her tune.  I know I have not been consistent about setting boundaries, but I have been getting better.

One thing I have read about BPD is to use "actions, not words."  This has been very helpful and I wish I knew it many years ago.  I still have a long way to go in getting better at this.  For a long time I tried asserting boundaries in words, like "I disagree with X" or "I won't do X" but it's hard for me to think of a single time when that was helpful, and usually I would go along with X anyway, in order to avoid her anger!

The only thing that has helped has been for me to act.  But I will say most of the time it is MORE helpful if I act AND I say what I am going to do, like "I know you want me to do X and you feel abandoned by me if I don't do X, but I'm not going to do X and that doesn't mean I'm abandoning you.  I'm still here with you.  What I will do is Y."  My guess is that if I just acted instead without telling her what I am going to do, she will feel like I am going behind her back and that will trigger the massive BPD distrust.

Any other suggestions about boundaries?  I'm thinking about two kinds of situations:

* BPD engages in some outrageous behavior, like vicious attacks and put downs against me, cursing, name calling, throwing things, etc.
* BPD demands that I do something, and says or implies that if I don't it means I don't love her or am abandoning her or am a horrible person, etc.

[Pedro]

My ex gfBPD in my opinion she either did not or could not acknowledge or recognise the emotional hurt or pain she caused me during our 6 years together. When she returned to her usual baseline mood & temperament after many implosions & rages, numerous times I asked her "do you know the hurt pain & suffering your actions, words, & emotions cause me as well as yourself"? This would send her into another rage, I quickly learned only to ask a couple of times?

[once removed]

Any other suggestions about boundaries?  I'm thinking about two kinds of situations:

* BPD engages in some outrageous behavior, like vicious attacks and put downs against me, cursing, name calling, throwing things, etc.
* BPD demands that I do something, and says or implies that if I don't it means I don't love her or am abandoning her or am a horrible person, etc.

Lesson One directly to the right of the board deals with surviving confrontation and disrespect. it can involve, but is not limited to, taking a time out when things go overboard. it also can involve learning to depersonalize the behaviors. let me make clear that that doesnt mean tolerating or accepting them; it specifically means understanding that often times, your partner is limited in the ability to constructively express themselves, are flooded emotionally, blowing off steam, and the words tend to involve distortions. if you respond out of woundedness, or anger, it may feed the dynamic, and its less likely your responses will be constructive.

as you mention, sometimes things can escalate when we introduce boundaries. any partner may perceive them as distancing, or an otherwise uncomfortable change, and for people with BPD traits, strong boundaries are crucial, but may at times be railed against. you may encounter whats known as an extinction burst. this doesnt necessarily mean you are doing the "wrong thing" (though often we over compensate when we first introduce boundaries).

all of the tools here take some practice, but they become natural over time, they will benefit generally any kind of relationship, and i call them skills for life. it sounds like in the process of asserting boundaries, that you would benefit from building on your communication skills, like listening with empathy and validating. personally i find validating one of the easiest, though many members struggle with it. validating is really about acknowledging, and allowing the person to feel heard, and not told that theyre wrong, even if you adamantly disagree (validating doesnt mean agreeing).

additionally, i wanted to share a workshop we have here on practical examples of setting boundaries: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368

and if youve not read our article on setting boundaries, i highly encourage you to do so: https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

[TRB]

all of the tools here take some practice, but they become natural over time, they will benefit generally any kind of relationship, and i call them skills for life. it sounds like in the process of asserting boundaries, that you would benefit from building on your communication skills, like listening with empathy and validating. personally i find validating one of the easiest, though many members struggle with it. validating is really about acknowledging, and allowing the person to feel heard, and not told that theyre wrong, even if you adamantly disagree (validating doesnt mean agreeing).

Thanks for the above.  Here is a challenge for you!  (And sorry for the long delay... .)

I have read all of the books on BPD, gotten professional counseling, etc., and everyone agrees about validation.  From everything I have learned, validation is the most important skill to have when interacting with people with BPD when they become upset.

However, when I have tried it with my uBPD spouse, I have had mixed success.  There are times when it works, but also times when she becomes enraged.  She has told me multiple times that she hates it "when you say you 'understand' what I am feeling" or "I hear you"!

Maybe my delivery is not natural enough, or I need to vary the words so that it feels sincere to her and not like something I am repeating out of a textbook.  I have read that people with BPD can be very emotionally perceptive and can tell right away if your words don't match your feelings or if you are trying to be manipulative.  I have also stopped using the word "understand" since it seems that she is convinced I can never understand how she is feeling in the sense that I do not have the same feelings as her and she is probably right.

Sometimes I think that if she is in a certain mood, she will not accept validation even if I communicate it perfectly.

But because validation does work some of the time with her, I want to figure out whether there are some ways of validating that are more likely to work than others.

I get the feeling that validation works with my spouse when she doesn't realize I am doing it, but doesn't work when she feels I am doing it intentionally.  Maybe that is another way of saying that it works when I am able to convey it with a natural feeling instead of it coming across as rehearsed.

I realize this is probably all very individual and you cannot observe our interactions with each other, but any ideas?  Does anything I say above ring true with anyone else's experience?

[once removed]

I realize this is probably all very individual and you cannot observe our interactions with each other

examples will always help when it comes to the communication techniques. much easier to give direct feedback.

Maybe my delivery is not natural enough, or I need to vary the words so that it feels sincere to her and not like something I am repeating out of a textbook.  I have read that people with BPD can be very emotionally perceptive and can tell right away if your words don't match your feelings or if you are trying to be manipulative.  I have also stopped using the word "understand" since it seems that she is convinced I can never understand how she is feeling in the sense that I do not have the same feelings as her and she is probably right.

youre dead on, about BPD perception, and that anyone will see right through communication if it isnt sincere. its understandable, validation can feel awkward at first, and this is a common problem initially. we can deliver it robotically, delivered like therapist speak, which is awkward for the person on the receiving end, and can even feel insulting.

youre also right that different strokes work with different folks. im a fan of "i hear you", followed by a summary of the persons position, with a little empathy thrown in. some might not be... ."i hear you" could be perceived as dismissive, depending on how its delivered. i think "i understand how you feel" or "i know how you feel" is tricky... .we can understand a persons position, its pretty difficult to ever fully understand how another person feels.

in terms of being more natural, surely you have naturally validated a loved one before. it helps to draw from experience. often times, if im dealing with someone difficult, i try to think about how i would respond if this was my best friend talking.

But because validation does work some of the time with her, I want to figure out whether there are some ways of validating that are more likely to work than others.

can you give some examples of what has worked?

I get the feeling that validation works with my spouse when she doesn't realize I am doing it, but doesn't work when she feels I am doing it intentionally.  Maybe that is another way of saying that it works when I am able to convey it with a natural feeling instead of it coming across as rehearsed.

heres another problem in terms of whats natural: "validation" turns into a means to get the other person to calm down or stop carrying on, and that tends to be obvious even if we have good intentions, and can easily be perceived as invalidation. validation can defuse conflict, and it can help keep it from escalating, but its not always necessarily a solution to end every conflict.

try thinking in terms of two approaches:

1. instead of always reaching for validation, avoid invalidation. (https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating)

An "ounce" of invalidation can nullify a "pound of validation". The first step is to stop making things worse.

2. dont validate the invalid. find a target for validation. if you have a whole tirade thrown at you, you dont have to respond to each part of it; find whats valid. empathize.

listening with empathy is the close cousin of validation. if you do this, validation comes much more naturally: https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy

[pearlsw]

Hi TRB,

Everyone with BPD(traits) is a bit different to be sure. My "h" can often admit mistakes and he is also often very sorry... .he expresses a lot of shame and embarrassment at times. The hard part is if he is sorry and then not sorry later. Or if he is sorry, but doesn't really let me process stuff and talk it over, how much he has hurt me.

take care, pearl.

[TRB]

I have tried hard to think about what has worked and what hasn't worked, and I think something like, "It's understandable to feel

• when [y] happens."  Of course I can't do this if it means validating the invalid but in many situations I can say this honestly and without validating the invalid.  For some reason it seems this comes across better than "I hear you" or "I understand you are feeling
• ."

Other wording I've used is "Of course you feel

• when [y] happens" or "anyone would feel
• when [y] happens."  Sometimes I've used "I know how you feel; I feel the same way when [y] happens" but I have to be careful about that because she will pick up on it if I am not being honest that I have had the same feeling in the same situation.

One thing I've done recently is something like, "I totally get where you're coming from" or just "I really get it; that makes perfect sense."

Thanks for pushing me to think about what has worked and what hasn't.  I have scoured my memory and have remembered some more that worked.  I will have to keep experimenting and paying attention to what works and what doesn't.

The funny thing is that other people in my life have thanked me for being so good at active listening and for validating their feelings.  It takes WAY more work for it to be effective with my BPD partner!  My experience has been that other people are not so sensitive to the exact words that are used; they generally just seem to appreciate that I am paying attention to them and their feelings and that I care and that I let them know this.  In any case the positive feedback I get from other people in my life is a good reminder that it isn't true that I "have no idea how to show empathy to another human being" (something my BPD partner has told me in rage many times).

[zachira]

The more high functioning a person is the more they are able to validate another person and sincerely apologize. What counts when a person apologizes is if they really understand how they hurt you, and let you know that, instead of just appearing to apologize so they can get relief from how uncomfortable the conflict is in the moment.

[juju2]

for me, this is a hallmark of their disease.

so i have to accept that reality, and deal with myself, dont try to get bread from a hardware store.  Thank you,

Hang tough

J

[once removed]

i use the versions you describe with others too, and they do tend to work well.

"have no idea how to show empathy to another human being" (something my BPD partner has told me in rage many times).

okay. reading between the lines, and from 30000 ft up, shes communicating (or trying to) that its just not a style that works with her, perhaps that she doesnt need/want to be told her feelings are okay, or understandable, etc. thats fine. we all have different styles that connect with us better than others. youll get there.

these may be examples where validation in that form just isnt necessary, and its better to emphasize "not being invalidating".

i would also think more in terms of "connecting" than trying to validate with specific words and phrases. "connecting" can take on many forms. you know her best, and are in the best position to know how to connect to her. i tend to look for what is driving the persons words, the underlying emotion, and connect with that. and bottom line, connecting builds trust and intimacy, which can only help you both get on the same page.

[Daffodill]

My BPD exbf never apologized or acknowledged he hurt me, but he came close, once early in our relationship.  He is a recovering addict and, at times, is very active in AA.  When he is, he is a little more responsive to taking responsibility for some of our problems, but only in hindsight, and never for any emotional pain. 

I don't think he is capable of truly acknowledging or accepting that he has caused emotional pain, but I think a lot of that is a coping mechanism for him.  I think part of it is that when others show they have been hurt by him, it hurts his feelings to such an extreme that he has to shift blame to avoid drowning in hurt.  The other part of it is that he just can't put himself in anyone else's shoes to understand how they feel. 

[udunnome81]

I found it very difficult to validate when my BPDw would spend an hour just telling me how I was the problem with everything and how worthless I was. I don't see how I can validate these feelings without agreeing with her that I obviously am a terrible person.

I would try to validate her feelings, however when the statements that are made are completely outside of any logic or reason, it felt like I was just enabling her to continue to attack me in this way.

[knit knack]

Hey TRB

ONCE in 30 plus years I have seen mine own up to the behaviour. Every time he projects it onto me. But when he did own up to it it was like a huge validation for me cause sometimes you think you are going crazy! It’s like every blow out results in me asking ok if I just try to be better at this or that he will be happy. But you know what? I am not responsible for his behaviour, I finally have clued into that. So what I do is try to call him on the behaviour and move on. In a sense limit setting. He doesn’t like it, he isn’t used to it, and I know that his behaviour tries to illicit hasn’t been illiciting the reactions it has in the past so it’s been more frequent of late usually once a month. I don’t cry anymore I try to remain calm because quite frankly yelling and or getting emotional just don’t work.I usually leave the room and come back later on when he is calm. I can’t imagine how he must feel inside the turmoil but I do know how I feel. I can be here for him but ultimately he has to be the one to recognize he needs help and he doesn’t seem willing to do that yet. So perhaps I will have to wait till he hits rock bottom and then go from there. In the interim, I am arming myself with any books suggested on this site that can help me to deal with these behaviours as best I can
Hang in there!

[juju2]

Hi,

When I look at my attitude towards my BPD b/f, now sep for 1 yr  after 10 yrs, and i see where my attitude needs to be different, I only have control over myself and my attitude.
We are in couples counseling since Nov.

I try to not have expectations. 

Thank you, j

[Lakebreeze]

Hi everyone,
Great thread here. I especially appreciated those who brought boundries and values into the discussion. Thanks!
My uBPDh can apologize profusely... .followed by justification for his behavior and how anyone in the situation could be expected to react the same way. And unless the apology is accepted and he is assured the he is completely forgiven and the incident is forgotten the rage just reignites. By the next day he can't remember that he has ever committed any offense and the problem is that I am a hardened and unforgiving person. It's tough.

[CryWolf]

My pwBPD does apologize at times, or if given her a few hours to cool down she will text like nothing ever happened and send pics or links to things I like. This was one of her forms of apologies. One time, she apologized and told me she cant control herself and becomes to impulsive and doesnt think of the consequences and that a lot of times she cant apologize because she is too prideful. She told me this before she was diagnosed with BPD.

[EdR]

For me the inability to truly apologize or at least talk things through seems to be key to the disorder.

In my several experiences with a pwBPD (traits) excuses over trivial matters could probably be made quite easily. But owning up to their own sometimes more shocking behaviour is something I never experienced... .