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Meili
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« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2017, 09:36:35 AM »

That's a very good question that I've been struggling with a lot. The more that I grow and evolve, the more I question what is best.

Figuring out what my needs are has become a point of confusion for me. The whole idea that I have any needs other than those required for survival continues to escape me. The idea that I deserve anything is even more perplexing to me.

The other thing that is in play is prioritizing. This is another area in which I fail miserably. Everything is equally important to me. I almost require someone to dictate a hierarchy of importance. It causes chaos in my mind otherwise.

It really bothers me that I can, as a general rule, easily grasp complex concepts like those presented by quantum mechanics, but the basic things in life elude me and make me feel like an idiot.

So, what are my needs? Am I responsible for filling them? What is the hierarchy of needs to be filled? These are all questions that I've never been able to answer. As a result, I have no real idea what an ideal relationship for me would look like.
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« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2017, 09:47:14 AM »

What purpose does a relationship serve for you?  That might be a place to start.  Do you need a relationship?

Love and light x
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« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2017, 09:53:23 AM »

Need? No. The only needs that a human has are:

  • food
  • water
  • sleep
  • air
  • shelter

What purpose? That's a very good question to which I don't really have an answer. The reason for this is because of inconsistency on the emotional front. Sometimes it feels like a partnership, other times it feels that I'm alone and taking care of her. I do know that I provide more for her than she does me.
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« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2017, 10:05:07 AM »

What is it that creates that contrast?  Can you identify what is missing for you when you feel alone in the r/s as opposed to when you feel it's more of a partnership?

Love and light x
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« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2017, 10:13:07 AM »

You forgot one Frog: Love. 

If we want to go back to Eric Bern, we can define interactions as strokes.  Infants literally shrivel and can die without strokes. See further Romanian orphans.  Or many of our pwBPD.
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Meili
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« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2017, 10:25:49 AM »

I really can't identify what is missing.

Well, that isn't completely true. I don't feel important in a way that I need to feel important. I know that I'm extremely important to her. She does some amazing things to show me this. But, they aren't the things that make me feel important if that makes sense.

So, I spend a lot of time trying to figure out if I'm just failing in myself to feel important?

But, it's really hard for me to deny that her walking out of the room mid-sentence, mid-discussion (not fighting) kinda makes me feel unimportant. Only discussing the part of a discussion that she wants to discuss makes me feel pretty unimportant. Constantly being told that I'm wrong (she denies that she does this) makes me feel unimportant. Lies, broken promises, things of that nature all make me feel unimportant.

Communication and transparency are incredibly important for me to feel secure. Those things are not important to her. She doesn't understand why it bothers me that she'll tell me that she's on her way to meet me and then decide that she wants to go somewhere else and doesn't tell me. I spend a great deal of time feeling like an after thought.
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Meili
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« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2017, 10:46:00 AM »

You forgot one Frog: Love. 

If we want to go back to Eric Bern, we can define interactions as strokes.  Infants literally shrivel and can die without strokes. See further Romanian orphans.  Or many of our pwBPD.

I don't agree that love is necessary for survival for all people. My entire life seems to go against the idea. I certainly survived without love. It wasn't until 9th grade that I even felt important to or cared about by someone. I certainly didn't feel loved by that person though.

To be certain, there were people who cared for me; cared about me is completely different however.

The idea that we need to be loved stems from the belief that humans have survival instincts. This is another theory about humans that is not substantiated by anything other than bias, antidote "evidence." Humans don't have instincts, they have taught behavioral patterns and involuntary, reflex actions (one of the few things that my mother taught me that I don't dislike her for).

We survive to avoid the discomfort of the alternative (fear based motivation). If you remove the fear, there is no human instinct to survive.
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« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2017, 05:32:51 PM »

Excerpt
Communication and transparency are incredibly important for me to feel secure. Those things are not important to her.

That's a pretty big value that doesn't currently align for you two.  I can imagine this having a very wearing effect.  In fact I don't need to imagine, having been in a long term r/s with a similar misalignment in values which was frustrating and depleting at best.  :)o you think your partner is aware how important it is for you to feel like a priority to her?

What else is important to you in a r/s and would you say that feeling secure is the most important thing?

As for love in a literal sense as a direct need for survival, I'd tend to agree, yet human connection which creates a sense of belonging forms a large part of the security we desire - driven by fear of separation from the pack or being cast out of the tribe leaving us vulnerable to attack from sabre toothed tigers.  (Therefore heading to the void.)  This is an inbuilt survival instinct.  When we are however natural outsiders, living on the outskirts of society, breaking from the pack by choice or otherwise, that fear can fall by the wayside and the program broken.  I think having been in seriously dangerous and life threatening situations and surviving these without intervention from others can also create that effect, of numbing out the instinct to cling to the tribe as a means of safety.  I suppose it depends if we're talking though about needs for survival or needs for happiness.  I digress... .

Love and light x    
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« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2017, 07:40:37 PM »

Do you think your partner is aware how important it is for you to feel like a priority to her?

I've expressly told her that it is extremely important to me. I've even gone so far as to tell her, very recently, that if this doesn't change I'm going to end things because it isn't a relationship that I want. My T suggests that my SO doesn't believe me and just assumes that I'm not going anywhere because my actions don't match my words on this front - the threat of my ending things.

I'm financially tied to her because of business endeavors. That has become more trouble than it's worth however, and I'm slowly separating the two of us in that department. The businesses won't survive without my efforts, but I can make them survive without her.

When my SO doesn't keep me informed about what is going on, it triggers some very early childhood memories for me. My earliest memory is being two years old, alone in my room and my father coming in and spanking me for something. To this day, I have no idea what. This became a norm for my young life between the ages of two and five. I was left alone, without human interaction for hours on end. Then my father would come home and I'd be beaten for something. The earliest that I can actually remember what I was being beaten for was the dog scratching-up my parents' bedroom door (where I had spent that day). My father blamed me. I was four.

My SO is aware of these things. I've talked to her about them many times. When she doesn't let me know what is going on and keeps me "in the dark," I experience the same fears that I did as a young child. After the silence comes the pain... .

What else is important to you in a r/s and would you say that feeling secure is the most important thing?

No, I would not say that feeling secure is the most important thing. I rarely feel secure. I do not ever get to enjoy the feeling of feeling secure in a r/s... .any r/s. I truly have a fear of abandonment.

It's funny, I wrote that post almost 15 months ago, I recognize the fear for what it is, but it still plagues me and I'm still searching for a way to overcome it. I strongly suspect that the memories that I eluded to above are what is behind all of it.

But, what else is important? That's a really good question that I've been pondering since I left my x. I truly don't know. I know what my ideal woman would be if I could design one from scratch.  Smiling (click to insert in post) But, I don't know what the ideal r/s would be.

I know things that are important to me, but when I think about not wanting to be involved with another because she does not possess those things, I feel shallow, mean, arrogant, and rigid. I also fear that no one could ever possess the level of complexity that would be compatible with me.

This is an inbuilt survival instinct.

I'm going to ignore the use of the word "instinct"... .

When we are however natural outsiders, living on the outskirts of society, breaking from the pack by choice or otherwise, that fear can fall by the wayside and the program broken.  I think having been in seriously dangerous and life threatening situations and surviving these without intervention from others can also create that effect, of numbing out the instinct to cling to the tribe as a means of safety.  

I don't disagree with this at all. When we don't have the taught behavioral patterns (what people seem to refer to as an instinct), the "norm" does not apply. It's hard to numb what never existed in the first place though.

I suppose it depends if we're talking though about needs for survival or needs for happiness.

I think that the problem here, as far as I'm concerned, is that I don't believe that happiness exists. To be sure, there can be transient moments when one feels happy, but happiness? That's a different story.
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Turkish
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« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2017, 10:22:26 PM »

That's brutal,  man,  being left alone for so long at a young age and then the first human interaction after being abandoned is punishment/pain/rejection. I'm trying not to trigger the swear filters here... .

When my mother adopted me at 2.4 yrs, she was my fourth caregiver and home.  Druggie parents, birth mother's parents and aunt, foster care,  mom.  I wasn't really aware that my mom had issues until about second grade when I was 6. We were on the way to school and I ease sniveling due to who knows what set her off that morning.  She reached for the gear shift and I flinched.  Then she back handed me so hard that my head bounced off the window.  "Why did you hit me?" "If you act like you're going to get hit,  you will be!" I'm even know chuckling about how messed up that was,  because it's like a movie script.

I don't remember this incident,  I must have been 3. My mother told me that we were at a garage sale.  Suddenly she panicked because I wasn't by her side.  She saw me on the corner of the lawn,  knees drawn up,  sobbing quietly to myself.  I had a badly skinned and bloody knee from falling down.  My mother told it to me sadly. I was in my 30s, never having heard the tale. My gut reaction wasn't that it was sad; rather, I was always a little bad [mule] who didn't need anybody!

Maybe your further along... .my fear isn't abandonment, but rather that I can't trust anybody.  I think it's related to FOA on some fundamental level. 
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Meili
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« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2017, 01:30:38 PM »

I hate hearing about how adults treat children in stories like that. I'll be nice and just say GGGRRRRR... .(frogs don't make any tough, cool sounds)

I still flinch around my father and sometimes around others when they make quick movements. My poor daughter... .She was just a little girl and thought it was fun to scare me. There were so many times that I almost hit her out of reaction without thought.

Trust is a major issue for me. I don't trust anyone... .ever. I try really hard to do so. I give opportunities for people to prove me wrong, but I always have a backup plan just in case.

WANTS VS. NEEDS

It's no secret that I struggle with the idea of wants vs. needs. As previously stated, to me, there are five needs for humans. Everything after that is a want.

Obviously this becomes a problem when you don't believe that you deserve anything. I can want, but don't need, and I shouldn't have because I don't deserve.

I've tried for decades to change the thought patterns on the "don't deserve" part. Those efforts have been futile. I have come up with a different approach now though, I've found a different way to view the needs part.

It is without question that the five needs are necessary for human existence. So, why not apply that thinking to other things? It is true that to achieve a want certain needs must be met. They become necessary to achieve the want. They are just as important to the survival of the want as the five needs are to the survival of the human.

This thought process came about because my T pointed out that I stay in relationships longer than I should because there is no need for me to exist the relationship. I may want to be out of it, but there is nothing that compels me to leave, and since I can tolerate quite a bit and the pain is so familiar to me there is no need for me to end it.

My r/s with my x is a great example of all of this. I tolerated the abuse well, I was comfortable with and happy about the rest of the r/s. There was no need for me to leave. Well, that was until I started to realize that our values where different and that I'd never be able to find sustainability with her. Then the need arouse and I ended things.

I was with my ex before her for seven years. Most of the time, I was bored and miserable. If she hadn't cheated on me, I would have probably married her because there was no need for me to leave the r/s regardless of whether or not I wanted to do so.

The idea of looking at the things that make up the wants as needs is still in it's embryonic stage. It needs to be developed further, but I think that it is something that I can work with at least.

Now, I just need to be able to convince myself that it's actually ok to want... .
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« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2017, 04:14:37 PM »

Meili and Turkish, both your early childhoods sound really tough.  It makes me want a time machine (let's not go there  Smiling (click to insert in post)) to go back and soothe the two of you and make everything alright.  I have a huge blank where my early childhood should be.  A bit scary.  What I do remember is that around the age of 6 or 7 something happened that affected me profoundly and gave way to the direction of my whole life.  It was a small thing to some, but very significant to my child's mind and told me what my place was and my worth in the world.  I felt like I didn't exist and nobody cared.  From that point on (and this came up in counselling only last year) I made the conscious decision to learn how to take care of myself completely so that I would never need my mother again.

Going back to your reply about what is important Meili, you mention that you could describe your perfect partner.  I know you kinda wrote this off as something you felt wasn't achievable or fair to expect, however I'd be curious to know what she would be like?  I don't obviously mean looks etc.  What qualities would she possess?  Perhaps this would help to establish what is important to you.  Try to think outside of the box.  There are no limits here.  No rules.  Just run with it, out of interest.

Excerpt
This thought process came about because my T pointed out that I stay in relationships longer than I should because there is no need for me to exist the relationship. I may want to be out of it, but there is nothing that compels me to leave, and since I can tolerate quite a bit and the pain is so familiar to me there is no need for me to end it.

I hear you on the wants vs needs and like your thought process around applying needs to the achievement of the wants.  :)o you feel guilt if you allow yourself to want something for yourself?

This explanation from your T makes total sense to me and I kinda wish it didn't because it seems so simple yet would explain a lot of unnecessarily painful years.  In fact, it's a little frightening to me to realise that had I not had my son to provide the need to get out of the violence for his sake in reality I might not be here today.    

Love and light x  
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« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2017, 04:50:15 PM »

OK, I won't comment on the time machine.  Smiling (click to insert in post) I will say that as much as I dislike my childhood, I'd not change it if I could. I wouldn't be me.

The ideal woman (fine... .I'll leave the physical traits out... .), in no particular order:

  • Organized
  • Likes motorcycles  Smiling (click to insert in post) Smiling (click to insert in post) Smiling (click to insert in post)
  • Takes care of herself
  • Cares about how she looks
  • Intelligent
  • Complex
  • Is not afraid of new experiences
  • Is adventurous
  • Is energetic
  • Animated (no, not as in a cartoon, but expressive with her body language)
  • likes the outdoors - doesn't want to just sit at home
  • Creative
  • Artistic
  • Respectful of others
  • Likes to cook (I forget to eat, so having someone who likes to cook helps with that)
  • Open-minded to new ideas (I come up with numerous thoughts that are easy to explain to someone with an open-mind, otherwise it's painful for me)
  • Likes science

From there, I just start to get really picky.  Being cool (click to insert in post)

Yeah, I was a taken aback a bit when my T suggested that the other day. It really does sum things up in a pretty simple way. I've always been happy that the average life span of my r/s is 5 years. But, when I look back and think about my staying simply because there was no need to leave, I can really see why they lasted as long as they did.
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« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2017, 05:56:32 PM »

She sounds pretty cool.  The picky parts could be the most interesting revelations!

I notice a lack of descriptors such as kindness, warmth, empathy, caring about others, generosity, loving, sense of humour, gentle, passionate, emotional intelligence, consideration, calm, centred, easygoing, good listener, honesty - just as a few examples of the personal qualities that might make up her character.  Are any of these on the picky list by any chance?

The one that jumps out of your list to me is respectful of others.  Does that have any special significance to you do you think?  It could be coincidence - I'm not doing a Jedi mind trick or anything  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Love and light x 
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Meili
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« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2017, 07:32:08 AM »

In my mind, the things that you listed that are missing from the list are inherent in some of the things listed in my list.

When I was doing research on discovering one's core values, one of the things that I learned was that we can have many core values, but if we look at the list, they can, generally, be grouped together and fall under one heading. Intelligent, open-minded, complex people who respect others tend to be caring, kind, compassionate, etc. But, part of the reason that I left those things off the list may be because they are foreign to me in a partner and I get very uncomfortable with people who are overtly like that.

An interesting thought is that I'm so tolerant of what most would call bad behavior, yet what most would consider good behavior makes me uncomfortable  - almost to the point that I don't want to be around it.

I'm not sure why respectful of others stood out to you. Perhaps because it's the only thing in the list that is an overt core value?

One of the reason that it's probably there is because that was the deal killer for my r/s with my x. She was extremely disrespectful, not only to me but to others. She was a gossip and talk about people behind their back, and would surround herself with others who did the same. This is something that does not sit well with the basic principles by which I try to live. Even in light of all of the rest, had she not acted that way, I'd probably have continued to have a r/s with her.

I think that the trust issues that are so deeply ingrained in me also come into play when thinking about my ideal partner. Most of the things that you listed that are missing from my list all touch on my being able to trust someone else in one way or another.

I can tell you that emotional intelligence, calm, and easy going would probably never have entered my mind though. In part because none of those apply to me, but mainly because I'm a HSS and HSP (high sensation seeker and highly sensitive person). I seek out intensity and sensations that stimulate. Also, immaturity can be fun provided that it is balanced with maturity. Smiling (click to insert in post)

But, the way that my life is structured and the things that I have planned are not what anyone would consider calm or emotionally intelligent. Let's face it, discarding almost all of my material possessions to go and live in a tent and tour the world on a motorcycle isn't exactly what most say fit into those categories. Of course, that is just on the surface, there is a lot of rationale that is behind this decision.

There was a specific reason that I left sense of humor off the list though. That one is far too subjective. My x thought that she had a great sense of humor. I could never understand why she thought some things were funny... .well, most things. The converse is true. She thought that the things that I found funny were stupid.
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Meili
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« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2017, 04:38:40 PM »

I was looking at the Characteristics of Healthy Relationships and seeing how they have applied to my relationships in the past.

  • Respect
  • Trust and support
  • Honesty and accountability
  • Shared responsibility
  • Economic partnership
  • Negotiation and fairness
  • Non-threatening behavior

I can easily see where many of these were missing in my relationships. It's interesting that the one that seems to be missing in most is Respect. If I were to venture a guess, that would probably be because I didn't respect myself. I became a doormat. Of course, this led to a lack of fairness and shared responsibility from my perspective.

It's even more interesting to me because HQ said that my inclusion of respect of others in my list stood out. One of the most important things to me and it is missing in most of my relationships.

The honesty one is hard for me to gauge because of my trust issues though. When you don't trust anyone, how can you believe that they are being honest?
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« Reply #46 on: October 19, 2017, 10:34:13 PM »

I don't know about you,  but my T pointed out that me and my ex really didn't have anything in common.  Also that we weren't a good match. 

Ultimately, he told me to find someone who was kind.  I realized that true kindness was missing from her,  and every "Waif" I had orbited for decades.  I was attracted to "it's good enough for me, " yet they weren't healthy relationships, even non-romantic. Like they told us when we did at risk youth mentoring,  "you don't know what you don't know." It was a call to step off of the beaten path. 
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« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2017, 05:09:47 AM »

Excerpt
An interesting thought is that I'm so tolerant of what most would call bad behavior, yet what most would consider good behavior makes me uncomfortable  - almost to the point that I don't want to be around it.

I hear you on this.  Whilst I know it's not healthy for me to be in an overtly abusive relationship, some degree of challenge is necessary to keep my interest as men who are too nice simply bore me and make me feel stifled and suffocated. 

Excerpt
I'm not sure why respectful of others stood out to you. Perhaps because it's the only thing in the list that is an overt core value?

Yup.  That and the fact that some of the others on the list are around interests rather than ingrained personal qualities.  One can decide to take an interest in something, take a cookery course etc. but respectfulness is something that is learned earlier in life and runs through everything we do. 

Excerpt
I think that the trust issues that are so deeply ingrained in me also come into play when thinking about my ideal partner. Most of the things that you listed that are missing from my list all touch on my being able to trust someone else in one way or another.

These were just examples.  We all want different things.  What I was eluding to was the personal qualities that complete the whole being.  So a person who has a certain set of interests and outward character could have an aggressive or passive nature beneath this.  It's the under the surface stuff I was digging for.  Do you think there were any of these types of things on your 'picky list' at all?  It's interesting to me to know whether you are truly being picky or just telling yourself that you are asking for too much... .

Would honesty come into respect for you?  In my opinion, honesty forms quite a large part of respect as I certainly feel strongly about the contrary - dishonesty being the ultimate form of disrespect for me.  When I speak about trustworthiness, it means to me that a person does as they say.  Keeping their promises.  So if your partner agrees to meet with you then whilst it's OK to be a little late if it's unavoidable, the fact remains they show up or they at least have the decency to communicate with you should that prove impossible.  Someone who can be counted on to do as they say is trustworthy to me.  I don't trust easily.  What would you say your definition of trustworthiness is?  Can you give examples of things that you specifically don't trust in a person generally?   

Excerpt
I can tell you that emotional intelligence, calm, and easy going would probably never have entered my mind though. In part because none of those apply to me, but mainly because I'm a HSS and HSP (high sensation seeker and highly sensitive person). I seek out intensity and sensations that stimulate. Also, immaturity can be fun provided that it is balanced with maturity. smiley
 

That's interesting, as I am HSSHSP yet score within the top 5% for emotional intelligence in any tests I've taken.  I know they're not hugely accurate but that strikes me as fairly high.  Totally agree on immaturity though.  My inner child's impulses are far more fun than paying bills responsibly! 

Your plan sounds epic and potentially very emotionally intelligent so far as I can see.  I don't think convention comes into the scores.  Choosing to travel and fill your days with awe and wonder, truly getting in touch with your world and experience different cultures and ways of life sounds amazing.  Getting back to basics and removing the distraction of 'stuff' is also really healthy as a way to be more mindful and in touch with your self.  Will you be travelling alone?

Excerpt
There was a specific reason that I left sense of humor off the list though. That one is far too subjective. My x thought that she had a great sense of humor. I could never understand why she thought some things were funny... .well, most things. The converse is true. She thought that the things that I found funny were stupid.
 

Good point.  Been there with my son's father.  He thought that being nasty to someone was funny.  I did not.  I was frequently told I had no sense of humour however I know that is far from the case.  I just find funny things funny, not meanness.  Perhaps I ought to have said similar sense of humour.  Being able to share a really good laugh with someone strengthens a relationship in my opinion.  If you can roll around with tears streaming and clutching your stomach from laughing so hard with somebody then that's a good sign.

Love and light x   

 
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« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2017, 10:13:31 AM »

I don't know about you,  but my T pointed out that me and my ex really didn't have anything in common.  Also that we weren't a good match. 

Oh yeah, my T was adamant that I look at how much my x and I didn't have in common. I protested at first because I only wanted to look at one or two things, but when I stopped and looked from the 50,000 foot view things were drastically different.

Yup.  That and the fact that some of the others on the list are around interests rather than ingrained personal qualities.  One can decide to take an interest in something, take a cookery course etc. but respectfulness is something that is learned earlier in life and runs through everything we do. 

I don't disagree here, but there is a difference between being able to do something and loving to do it. I think that's where the passion that you mentioned was missing comes into play. Both my current gf and my x ride motorcycles, but neither loves to ride like I love to ride. Sure, they'll both say that they love to ride, but neither is really keen on it being a way of life like I am.

My current gf cooks, but my x loved to cook. It was her meditation. She would cook and give the food to neighbors and friends just because she loved to make things. That's the difference I see between having learned something and loving to do it.

Do you think there were any of these types of things on your 'picky list' at all? 

No, I'm being picky.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Yes, it is possible for a person to have certain traits and there being different underlying traits. But, the specific combination of things that I listed should produce a specific set of underlying traits. It's really difficult to be intelligent, complex, open-minded, and respectful of others and be mean. The meanness would contradict one of more of the other four.

Part of how all of this works for me is pattern recognition; it's one of my strengths. Joining different pieces together to predict an outcome.

Would honesty come into respect for you?

Most definitely! It's hard to claim that you respect someone when you are lying to them.

What would you say your definition of trustworthiness is?  Can you give examples of things that you specifically don't trust in a person generally?   

Cognitively, I agree with how you are defining trustworthiness. I truly wish that I possessed the ability to believe that someone is going to do what they say. I just don't. I don't rely on others to do things as a result.

I never assume that anyone is going to be where they say that they are going to be when they say that they'll be there. I only allow people to help if I can formulate a backup plan in case they don't follow through. I never believe that anyone is going to live up to a promise. I never expect money that I lend to be repaid.

In relationships, it goes deeper. I was never taught that I could rely on another to love me or care about me. In fact, I was taught the opposite. So, I don't do it. I understand the realities of relationships not lasting a lifetime. I know that people are unfaithful. Things happen; people come in and out of life.

Will you be travelling alone?

Thank you. The exact things that you mentioned were the genesis for doing it. It has evolved into something a bit more these days. Part of the reason I'm doing it is get back to writing. I used to write a lot. I stopped at some point. I don't make the time to do it now. My world has become so stagnant and has shown no signs of change in the past decade, so traveling should cure that.

I'm not sure if I'll be alone or not at this point. The original plan was for my gf to come with me. But, she has made no effort to be part of my plan. In fact, she's tried to change it. She doesn't want to go to some of the remote places, etc. I've offered that she can accompany me on parts of it, but that doesn't seem agreeable to her.

It seems that the relationship has an expiration date at this point. I'm planning to leave in May 2018. There is a lot to do between now and then if she's going to come with me. I've seen no effort. To the contrary, she seems to be making plans that require her to stay. We'll see.

If you can roll around with tears streaming and clutching your stomach from laughing so hard with somebody then that's a good sign.

If only I could... .I've never had that experience.
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« Reply #49 on: October 21, 2017, 03:49:42 PM »

Meili that's a shame and I hope it's something you do get to experience.  Perhaps on your epic adventure.  Must admit, there were probably some recreationals in use at the time... .and thinking about it this has rarely, if ever to that degree, happened with a romantic partner.  More often with someone who I felt I had a very deep and profound connection with - a total mutually respectful understanding at a level that's not easily achieved.  Male friends (always found it easier to form close friendships with the opposite sex).  A few times with family.

Out of interested, are you considering allowing things to run their course until your departure?

Love and light x 
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« Reply #50 on: October 23, 2017, 01:19:21 PM »

and thinking about it this has rarely, if ever to that degree, happened with a romantic partner.  More often with someone who I felt I had a very deep and profound connection with - a total mutually respectful understanding at a level that's not easily achieved.

uuummm... .HQ, ideally, shouldn't you have that type of connection with a romantic partner?

Out of interested, are you considering allowing things to run their course until your departure?

Yep, that's the plan. I'm just going to let things run their course and try not to push things too far one way or the others.

My T wants to know if I'm doing that because I'm trying to avoid conflict. I couldn't argue against that possibility. That's where the whole "need to leave the relationship" vs. "want to leave the relationship" discussion came from.
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« Reply #51 on: October 23, 2017, 01:58:34 PM »

Dear Meili,


I hope you don’t mind me going back to one of your original premises.

Excerpt
I learned that fear is the only true motivator in human life. We only do what we do as a result of fear.

I disagree. The only true motivator in life is love. And I don’t only mean romantic love ; also love for our children, for our friends, for a stranger who smiles at us. Love for animals and nature. Love for ourselves.

Fear is the opposite of a motivator : it paralyzes and holds us back.

I don’t think fear can ever be healthy unless you are in a life threatening situation. When you are in the middle of the road and a car is coming, you need fear to save yourself.

In all other situations, fear is the opposite of love.

xx


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« Reply #52 on: October 23, 2017, 02:09:49 PM »

No Fie, I don't mind.

I do understand your reasoning and your position. I'm not here to convince anyone that their way of viewing the world is wrong. I've had these discussions for over 30 years now, and I've learned that people get quite upset when we begin to delve too deeply.

For me, things are different though. For me, love is not the motivator in any of the situations that you mentioned, fear is.

Love of our children, strangers, animals, or ourselves, really just equates to fear that something bad will happen to them or us or that they or we are unhappy or whatever. It's still fear that is the driving force. Love is not an action word... .by itself, it creates nothing.

Also, I do not believe that fear is the opposite of love; indifference is.

The opposite of fear is euphoria.

Again, these are just my beliefs and I don't expect anyone to accept them as true for them.



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« Reply #53 on: October 23, 2017, 02:49:44 PM »

On a professional course I took to extend a certification I learned that all of us are either driven by motivators that are 'towards' or 'away from'.  Some will say "I need to get that job because I want to go live in Thailand and that's where it's based."  Others will say "I need to get that job so that I'm not poor any more / don't end up stuck here like my parents."  It seems to be something that is individual and runs through the majority of, if not all of our decision making.  So running from fear and running towards love are equally valid and make total sense to the individual.  Neither is a bad thing and each can lead people in entirely the same direction.  It's just an inbuilt standpoint and is formed young like much everything else... .

Love and light x  
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« Reply #54 on: October 23, 2017, 02:56:34 PM »

Excerpt
uuummm... .HQ, ideally, shouldn't you have that type of connection with a romantic partner?

Yes absolutely.  I'd like to have that genuine connection with a partner in the way I've been able to have this with friends who are platonic.  Without being bored... .One of the copious number of reasons I plan to remain single for the foreseeable... .  Certainly until I've sorted my sh... out.   Smiling (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
My T wants to know if I'm doing that because I'm trying to avoid conflict.

I like your T  Smiling (click to insert in post)  Yes it does seem you may be putting off making a decision for yourself that is based upon your needs/wants rather than letting the chips fall around practical plans, so to speak.  If she decides to go with you, how will you feel - and vice versa?

Love and light x

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« Reply #55 on: October 23, 2017, 03:06:11 PM »

HQ, that goes back to what I said earlier in the thread about a logical contraposition. If one is true than the equal, and opposite (or inverse) must also true.

My problem, and the reason that my position still stands for me, is that argument that fear is the only emotion that can exist absent its converse. You have to know indifference to know love. You have to know sorrow to know happiness. You have to know peace to know what anger is. You do not need to know euphoria to know fear though.

So, I can see that on a conscious level, a person may believe that they are running too love, or to whatever, but when asked why they are motivated to do so, if you keep asking the motivation for each level, it comes down to fear as the underlying motivator. At some point, "So that I'm not... ." or "So that I don't have to... ." or something along those lines comes into play.


UGH! I struggle with boredom in relationships too! I really do need to be challenged. I think that may be part of that HSS/HSP stuff.

(my T is mean   )

If she does go? I have mixed feelings. Part of me will be relieved because it will be less scary. The other part of me will be annoyed because I will spend the entire time worrying about her and her happiness.
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« Reply #56 on: October 23, 2017, 03:14:58 PM »

The greatest goals in life are those that 10% excite you and 90% scare the carp out of you.

Yes boredom sucks.  When I find someone who can keep up with me I'll be on a winner... .although my competitive streak will probably push me to spend all of my time outdoing them and then get bored or get us both killed Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #57 on: October 23, 2017, 03:24:22 PM »

I've given up on the idea of finding a woman who can keep up with me.

One of the things that work very well in my r/s with my x was clearly defined rolls. Remember I said something about a woman who loves to cook? That was her. She told me in the beginning, when we started getting serious, that anything that had to do with food was her domain and I had complete control over anything that required tools. That arrangement worked very well.

She has acreage and livestock, so there was always something that needed to be repaired. I kept very busy. When the farm didn't require my attention, we worked on making our jewelry, riding motorcycles, etc. There was always something happening.
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« Reply #58 on: October 23, 2017, 03:36:56 PM »

I hear what you're saying there.  With my ex I didn't have the patience or interest in domesticity.  It just isn't me at all.  Housework?  Yeah, I have better things to do.  He LOVED to clean and cook and was like a house husband whilst I went out and had fun with my little guy and after the day was done, I didn't need to lift a finger.  Just had the chance to relax and unwind and that is when our time started.  It worked well.  In fact a bit too well.  Difficult to adjust without him here.  Now I must take pleasure in achieving these simple monotonous tasks or I'd go nuts.  So I squeeze a bit in here and there, throw on some loud music, dance and sing my way around with a mop and batch cook when my son is at his father's so it doesn't have to be a daily thing. 
Main issue with us (apart from the DV when that reared it's ugly head, obviously... .) from a lifestyle perspective was I've travelled and am adventurous.  As long as there is breath in my body I will see as much of this earth as I can.  I'm the one who goes away and within 24 hours has done ALL of the things you're warned not to for safety's sake.  Unbeaten tracks are my absolute calling.  Places others are afraid to venture I'm desperate to go to.  (":)on't you know it's a warzone/you know they have cholera there/you don't get immunised?"  He hadn't ever left this island!  The prospect of him holding me back was always going to be a deal breaker.  Poor guy never had a chance really.  Makes me wonder why I went there... .

So tell us about current gf.  What are the things that work between you two?

Love and light x 
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« Reply #59 on: October 23, 2017, 04:10:57 PM »

What works is the intellectual/academic stuff. We can discuss physics and chemistry for hours. She was a PhD student in microbiology, so she knows a lot about that subject as well. I dislike biology though, soo... .yeah, I try to stay away from it.

We have similar tastes in movies, television shows, and music too.

She's kind, caring, and supportive of me, but isn't showing interest in things that are truly me. She does encourage me to pursue those things however. That's certainly a bonus.

She's adventurous as well. But, probably not to the extent that I am. She values her comfort. I'm more of the "load up the bikes and go" type, but she has mentioned on more than one occasion that we should just get a camper and trailer the bikes places.

Basically, she's makes a great friend. When we start to get past that though, things start to go wrong.
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