DIL, walking on eggshells

[Lilytoo]

Don't know how I stumbled onto this site, I've looked online before but this is wonderful.  I am dealing with a DIL with BPD who hates me, hates my husband, we can't say or do anything right.  Everything we do is picked apart, frowned upon, taken as an insult.  We've been told we abandoned our son (when he went to college three hours away).  ?  She told us that she has to have people around her who love her, she has to surround herself with love.  She has to be with HER family;  we have not had one Christmas Eve or day with them for a decade, but know they drive down in the vicinity to be with her folks.  They are married with three children.  She pouts, leaves our house with excuses (need diapers, need to shop for something) when they do rarely visit, is often on the phone with her family while here, mostly making plans to see them after the obligatory short visit here.  The concession she's obviously made with our son is to come here for Thanksgiving.  Sadly, I am at a point where I just don't want to see them anymore.  We have made trip after trip to see them and try to ignore all the slights and rudeness, although we cry and complain trying to understand why on our way home.  This year they have not come to our house once.  We've made the trip to see them six times, trying to keep a relationship with our grandchildren.  Recently we feel like they've been turned against us, we feel a growing distance.  Last Thanksgiving eve, I excused myself to go to bed early since I had to get up at 4:30 to make stuffing and put the bird in the oven.  My nightgown was just falling down over me when our DIL walked in (no knock) with five year old, said she wants to sleep with Nana.  I said gee, not tonight honey, Nana's got to get up really early.  (I knew she'd want stories and I do shadow puppet shows for them).  DIL grabbed granddaughters arm, pulling her out of the room, meanly saying, come on, Nana doesn't WANT you.   Wow.  I kick myself for not speaking up then,  I was just so stunned.  I've been so afraid that we'll be cut off from our son and their kids but after years of this heartache, I'm ready to say you win.  And it's like that, always a fight but with no actual fighting, just whatever we do that she takes as a slight.  Our son told us years ago that he was always apologizing for US to her.   We were shocked and told him he never needs to apologize for us, if there's a problem she should talk to us.  If we're in the wrong we'll apologize for ourselves.  But she hasn't directly confronted us in years.  We are so sorry he ever married her.  He's so amiable, suppose that's why she honed in on him.  They did their own vows, he had his written down and it was so sweet and loving.  Her turn came, she said she'd forgotten her paper so she winged it.  Every single thing she said was about her and how he could make things better, make her laugh, fix her mood, nothing about him really, just what he could do for her.  By the way, she'd hounded him to work on his vows and then she wasn't prepared.  She is very intelligent, top of the class, has a good job.  We see NO empathy in her for others.  We do see our grandchildren behaving in a similar detached way and that's just one more worry.  Our other son has a wife, kids, all "normal" and nice and we have a loving relationship.  We took everyone on vacation, this DIL drank every night, obviously the only way she could tolerate us but I've seen more drinking over the years.  Here's a good one, last year they had a Halloween party, invited kids from neighborhood and our other grandkids, and the adults.  We were also invited.  She'd made Jell-O shots in big plastic syringes, red ones for adults, green for kids.  She announced which was which and had them out, I grabbed the ones with booze and put them up where kids couldn't get at them.  ?  I don't get it.  She drank while pregnant, just beer, because her mom said the yeast is good for milk production, they do that in the old country.  So, we rarely drink, our son doesn't drink much and I don't think I'm being over-sensitive here.      And what does this mean:  The couple that provide daycare are their only friends and twice in my presence, the other guy has said, when he sees her, "ah, there's my Friday night wife!"  What does that mean?  That he parties with her or more?  It's weird.    The way we see it, our son is trapped and has to be on her side, why are there sides though?  We figured out we can't push it because he'd have to take her side and that leaves us out.  I feel like I've lost respect for him, but reading other people's accounts, I should be feeling sorry for him.  I have small moments with him, only when she's not around, and everything is back to a good relationship.  Doesn't last long, for instance, he called the other night, short call, he abruptly had to end it because she had just arrived home.  We think he's not allowed to talk to us.  In person, he treats us a bit coldly if she's there.  I got a genuine hug this summer, he and I both happened to be in a parking lot at the same time, my love for him welled up then.  The rest of the time we keep getting snubbed.  Guess this is how he manages her.  How long can we last like this though?  If we didn't make the effort we'd never see any of them.  At least she hasn't cut us off.  But walking on eggshells and getting slighted all the time sucks.  It beats you down.  I don't think he tells her anything we've told him, like family news, because she's always surprised to hear it.  One time I said, don't you two talk?  Oops.  He must know bringing us up in conversation is a no no.  They fought so much before they got married, always apparently about us!  Peers from school told her how lucky she was to be getting me for a mother-in-law, she scawfed at that.     Well, writing this makes me feel I'll be okay to get through this Thanksgiving, I'll try to be more understanding towards the plight my son has to deal with daily.  I'd love to broach the subject of her BPD to him, but how?  I think it would help him tremendously.  We'd never heard of BPD until a relative, who's a therapist, said it sounds like that.  Explains a lot but doesn't fix anything.  And what about the kids?  I was always saying that we need to just be there in their lives, a normal influence but it's getting harder and harder.  At this point it might just be easier to be cut off completely, easier for us but not our son, any of them.  It's chaos always at their house too, is that a part of it?  Never relaxing, always go go go.      One time I got butt-dialed at 6 in the morning, very eye-opening, pun intended.  I shouted but no one heard, then I have to say, I'm guilty of listening in.  Baby was in a high chair, my son getting her breakfast, then DIL came into kitchen, he left for upstairs, baby fussing, then crying, DIL said harshly, "Why are you crying!" and left the room.  Shouted to my son she had to get ready, (they both work) she left the kitchen, he came in with another kid, managed kids, she came in later, said something about the day and left.  No kiss goodbye.  I got to listen to my son being a great daddy, taking care of them, getting them ready to go to daycare, I listened while they were in the car, heard him talk to daycare provider, back to car where he put the radio on while he drove to work, I finally hung up.  I guess I need to remember this, that he needs help and support and I can't let her push us all the way away.  Just not looking forward to Thanksgiving, to see what new terrible sins we commit!  Phew.  A million more horrible examples of her behavior.  We used to think it was odd, tried to put a funny spin on it, but there's nothing funny about any of this.  My heart has broken time and again.

[witsend70]

I know you are hurting. When there are children and grandchildren involved, it makes the situation even more painful. Is there any way you can talk to your son alone and ask him her reason for being so defensive toward you? I do know from personal experience that a BPD often tries to isolate their "chosen ones" from other family members. It is as though they can be the only loved ones in their lives and everything has to revolve around them.

I hope you can get some answers. Good luck

[Notwendy]

This is a tough situation and from reading the posts on this topic - a typical pattern where DIL separates grown son from his family.

I became puzzled when my BPD mother was able to dissolve my ( now deceased )father's relationship with me as a grown child. A parent- child bond is so strong. I was baffled that my father would go along with her, and wondered how that could happen. I know he loved me,  but somehow when it came to her wishes, nothing else mattered.

I have always been baffled at this kind of power she has. I don't understand it. It almost seems supernatural- who has the right to break up families- even if they could? However, in order to do this, my father also had to make the choice to go along with such a wish. That was harder for me to understand. Like your son, he was a kind person, and he also took on the role of parenting when I was younger. What was it about my dear father that would agree to something like this?

While I was grieving the relationship with my father, I also felt sad for his parents. I spoke to his siblings who confirmed that this kind of thing happened with my father's family. They disliked my mother from the get go. I know that my mother dislikes them. However, my mother also didn't embrace parenting. During school breaks she was happy to send us kids to stay with my father's family and we have wonderful memories of those times with them with our cousins. Yet, my mother seems loyal mainly to her family- and her family didn't ever have us stay with them or try to include us.

The "sides" thing. Learn about the drama triangle. My mother does speak about "sides" - she'll say " she is on MY side" what side? It's how she perceives things. Someone or something is the Persecutor, my mother takes Victim perspective and my father stepped in to Rescue her. If I didn't go along with what my mother wanted, I also became one of the Persecutors. My father then stepped in to Rescue her- and if it was from me, well that's how it was. This Rescuer-Victim was a strong bond between them-the two of them against a Persecutor.

For any behavior to continue- there has to be a payoff and a cost. So long as the payoff is greater than the cost, the behavior is likely to continue. Some behaviors are high costs- like addictions, and an addict will often not take steps to stop the addiction until a high cost event- happens. In the meantime, they will endure, ignore, deny the harm to their family, jobs, self- for the addiction. I think these kinds of relationships are similar. There is some kind of strong emotional payoff to the relationship- even if we see it differently.

For me, getting onto the drama triangle in attempt to hold on to my relationship with my father was a losing venture. It was adding fuel to the drama that is the pattern in my FOO. When you say "she wins" - she has won- if you play in her drama. I think it is good that you don't go to either extreme- solicit or cut off the family ( cut it off if you choose to but then, you become the Persecutor that abandoned your son to them). I think if you keep the triangle in mind when you interact with her, the comments will be less insulting to you. A focus on Thanksgiving being for the grandkids may help- just plan some fun things, expect her to be herself and yet, try to keep your peace of you can. This is different from WOE all the time. I try to choose my battles. I can tolerate my mother in the short term- like a family dinner. It isn't worth getting into something with her in the moment. Since this is all the time you have with your DIL in the moment, it may not be worth the conflict.

As to the drinking, if she does this in front of you, she probably does more in her own privacy. This is sad for your son- but he chose this and unless it gets bad enough for him to choose otherwise, this is the choice he made. You feel ready to walk away from it all. That's one choice. Another is to work on being emotionally detached from it- a radical acceptance that this is your son's choice and try to see if there are ways you can manage the visits with them when you have them but take care of you too. If going to visit him is tiring for you, then visit less. Self care is key here.

[Panda39]

Hi Lilytoo,

Just passing through briefly but wanted to give you a link to more on the Karpman Drama Triangle that Notwendy mentioned.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108440.0

I also wanted to point out the box to the right --> each item listed there is a link to more information you might want to check out the "Lessons" section.

There are also a lot of books out there on BPD for me it was helpful for me to get a really clear understanding of BPD so I started with my local library.  Understanding BPD helped make things feel less chaotic... .there was a method to the madness.  Making sense of what was going on was the first step in being able to find ways to make improvements.

Gotta run.
Take Care,
Panda39

[Lilytoo]

Thank you so much.  Yes, I think of my son as being put in the role of her savior, she's a victim and he takes care of her.  What a role.  As parents we so wanted him to find an equal partner, never dreamed it could be like this.  And yes, I'll read more, check into the triangle.  I'm trying not to be part of it but I'm cast as the villain no matter what I do.  My husband used to be tolerated, now he's a bad guy too.  I'm just going to educate myself more, keep just being me.  She doesn't like anything I do, so damned if I do, damned if I don't, I'll just be myself and she'll just keep getting mad?  I will concentrate on the kids, have to hang onto the notion of being normal role models for them.  Their oldest daughter is just strange at six already, repeating kindergarten even though she can already read and write a bit, all for social reasons, or so we assume, we never get the full story of what goes on.  Little bits come out now and then.  As far as talking to our son, we're so afraid he'll say something to her and that WOULD be the end.  Just asking him about her defensiveness is good but what can he say?  He did choose this, we just see him as a sort of wimp, under her complete control.  Anything not to rock the boat.  I do wonder about her drinking, that scares me a bit.  And no sense of empathy is just so foreign to me.   Thanks much for your comments, I'm off to the library tomorrow!

[Panda39]

Thank you so much.  Yes, I think of my son as being put in the role of her savior, she's a victim and he takes care of her.  What a role.  As parents we so wanted him to find an equal partner, never dreamed it could be like this.  And yes, I'll read more, check into the triangle.

The thing with the triangle is that the roles can change and when things get dysfunctional the participants can be running around the triangle and there can be multiple triangles going on at the same time.

You've picked out the wife victim and son rescuer, but his wife might also be the persecutor (people with BPD (pwBPD) are known to rage) and he the victim, and you the rescuer, or you are the victim of his wife's lousy behavior and his wife is the persecutor of you and at the same time the victim to your son (because you are so awful  ) and your son becomes the rescuer etc. round and round everyone goes. 

How can you take yourself off the merry go round?  Try not to get on.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

He did choose this, we just see him as a sort of wimp, under her complete control... .

Your son did choose his wife, but it might not have been the version he is married to now there is a period in the beginning of these relationships when the pwBPD idealizes their partner and looks to be everything your son was looking for and then things gradually go south.  Why does he stay?  There are as many answers as there are people.  Many here are rescuers, many end up co-dependent, my significant other felt he had a duty to his wife and family, some become emotionally abused, some stay to protect their children, some believe strongly in their marriage vows etc.  You might want to read some of the posts on the "Improving Board" to get some insight into your son's point of view and the types of things that can be happening in his life.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=6.0

I know you are feeling attacked by your son's wife and that he is letting it happen, but he has to live with her and if you are having trouble with her from a distance imagine how difficult it is for him trying to live with her.  Talk about damned if you do and damned if you don't... .look at the position he is in between you and his wife.  The solution may look easy to you from the outside but might be much more complicated from his perspective. My suggestion is to have some patience with your son. 

My guess is your son's wife feels threatened by you.  Fear of Abandonment is at the heart of BPD and black and white thinking is also very common.  She probably can't see that your son can love both you and her, she can only see that he loves you or her.

Glad to hear you're hitting the library  Two books I thought were particularly good are... .

Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care About Has Borderline Personality Disorder by: Paul Mason & Randi Kreger

Overcoming Borderline Personality Disorder: A Family Guide for Healing and Change by: Valerie Porr, M.A.

Whether you find these books at your library or something different I will be interested to hear what you discover and how things you read relate to your real life experiences.

Take Care,
Panda39

[Notwendy]

Panda makes some good points about the idealization phase as well as the difference between long distance and living with someone daily. I could empathize with my father and understand some of the decisions he made. He lived with her. I have also seen her good side- there can be a Jeckyll-Hyde quality to BPD. My mother is an attractive woman, who can be charming, and intelligent like your DIL. And yet, there is a cold as ice quality to her- void of empathy. We used to wonder how my father put up with it and these relationships are complicated. If you spend some time reading the posts on the relationship boards, you will see the perspective your son is in.

My father was also committed to us kids- he did take care of us. Your son may also be concerned for his children. I was close to my father and considered him my only parent. I have a mother who is technically my parent but I don't have the kind of bond I did with my father. It was in his elder years  that I naively got into the drama triangle trying to rescue him from the way my mother was treating him.

IMHO, I think you are wise to not speak of your son's wife to him. It fuels the drama triangle. It puts your son in a tough position- it is either her reality or yours- and he knows somehow that you make sense, but to exist with her, he has to deny that. I learned later that everything I said to my father about my mother was shared with her. She read all his e mails, listened in on our phone calls.  How does someone give in to this? My mother is persistent in her demands- non- stop- it is constant. Eventually I think the wish for a moment of peace takes over. It is very hard to resist this on a day to day basis.

Use your new found knowledge to help you navigate this situation. If your son wants the information, he can easily get it. It is available on the internet and in books. Trying to bring this up with my father didn't work. He was a smart man. I am pretty sure after decades with my mother, he knew all he wanted to know. Your son is smart enough to research this himself if he wants to.

[Lilytoo]

This is SO helpful.  My son called last night, his wife was out.  My attitude towards him has already changed and I was nice to him, like we used to be and I enjoyed our conversation.  Just last week we actually ducked his phone call.  I now feel more importantly that he needs support and no matter what she does or says to/about us, he has to know we're always here for him.  I got "Walking on Eggshells" book, still need to really figure out the triangle, and absolutely she feels threatened by my relationship with him.  I feel like there's a rope and she's pulling on one end, my son is in the middle and I have to not pull on my end.  How to not be insulted and put up with her comments though?  Is the goal to rise above it?  And in the end, it's all just a sad life for him and to me, a question able life for their kids.  But for me, I feel better the more I learn and the advice and insight you are all giving me is amazing, so very helpful.  THANK YOU

[Panda39]

I'm so happy you were able to have a nice call with your son    I agree with you keep that door open to your son. 

I found the more I've learned the more I'm able to distance myself from taking things as personally as I once did.  It's like I'm in the interaction, but at the same time I'm watching the interaction and seeing those dysfunctional behaviors for what they are.  The more I learned the less chaotic the behaviors became.  I can actually often anticipate my SO's uBPDxw's responses to things.  Do I always like her responses no, but because I'm no longer surprised by them my responses are no longer escalating things further.

One of the first behaviors to look for is FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) or emotional blackmail.  I suspect your son is living in FOG and I bet if you look back on some of the interactions you've had with your dil you've experienced too.  It helps to see it, once you see it, it changes your response because you recognize it's a tool of manipulation.  Here are a couple of links to more info on FOG... .

https://bpdfamily.com/content/emotional-blackmail-fear-obligation-and-guilt-fog
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

Panda39