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VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
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Dragon72
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« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2017, 08:33:40 AM »

I'm fairly conscious that I'm well into the "devaluation" stage of the idealization/devaluation/discard cycle. And frankly, I wish she would get on to the discard stage.

It's clear she has no ability or desire for emotional or physical intimacy, so what we're left with is a controlling roommate situation.

Last night, just before 8pm I was in the downstairs living room of our very small house, watching TV on my own as usual as my wife had gone to bed with our 4 year old son at 7.30. The phone rang. It was her, asking me from the room above to adjust the child's car seat. 

What's the big deal, you may ask. It got to me for a three of reasons.
1. It's a job she could have easily done herself, so it struck me as simply a way of her exerting control.
2. Although she said "please", it sounded like an order.
3. She telephoned me from 30 feet away to ask me to do something.

I should enforce boundaries more, but often I don't notice the infringement of boundaries until after they've been breached.

I also got into trouble because I arrived home from work yesterday at the usual time, but I didn't call beforehand to say I would be arriving.  I felt like a teenager being lectured by his mom. 
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« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2017, 09:24:22 AM »

 
And you listened to the lecture about not calling... .why?

And when she called you... .you said? 

How about "Hey... .I'm downstairs, now is a good time to chat about this... .come on down."

or.

"No. "

or

"No... I'm downstairs if you would like to discuss further"

FF
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« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2017, 11:12:45 AM »

Actually I did not respond to the lecture about not calling and I just ignored her, but that's not to say that it didn't touch a nerve. She made me out to be disrespectful and inconsiderate because I didn't call to tell her I was on my way home.   I think I wouldn't achieve anything by saying "Actually I don't think it's disrespectful or inconsiderate not to call ahead" because she has already made up her mind that it is and it would be invalidating.  So I didn't agree and apologize (which I might have done before), nor did I disagre and contradict (which I feel like doing now I'm getting bolder about my own wishes and needs).   So I just left her to rant and let it bounce off.

But the thing about living long-term with a BPD person is that you begin to doubt and be unsure about what is or isn't reasonable behaviour if everything you do ends up being interpreted as a slight.  Should I be expected to call home to say I'm on my way?  Is it really rude not to?   

I must say I might be more inclined to say "Honey I'm on my way home" if the honey I'm coming home to acted more like a honey at home.

As for the phone call from upstairs, your recommended replies are exactly what I should have said and I am ashamed of myself for doing what she asked.
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« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2017, 11:20:49 AM »

Hey Dragon, Try not to JADE (justify, argue, defend or explain), which is usually a pointless exercise when responding to a pwBPD.  You did well by leaving her to her rant and letting it bounce off you, like water off the back of a duck.

Excerpt
I must say I might be more inclined to say "Honey I'm on my way home" if the honey I'm coming home to acted more like a honey at home.

I hear you!  I found it challenging to behave in a loving manner when my BPDxW was unloving and abusive towards me.  Instead, I practiced disengagement by adopting an attitude of indifference, which I found helpful.

LuckyJim
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« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2017, 12:19:34 PM »


I'm going to make a suggestion for the lectures.

Starters... .good job not engaging.!   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

I'm wondering if it would have been wise to ask to talk about something else and offer a time later to talk about calls home.  (do all of this in a friendly way).

then... if she agrees... .talk later and talk now about something pleasant.

If she continues with the lecture "I'm not able to have this conversation right now... .I'll be back in 10 minutes" and go do something else... .have a walk... etc etc.

The point is not to just "not react"... .the point is to protect YOU from the impact of her negativity.  So... take your ears somewhere else.

Thoughts?

FF
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« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2017, 03:06:32 PM »

I'm at work right now and although my work day has nearly finished, I'm probably going to delay going home for a couple hours because I don't like going home to my own house.  At home there is tension and simmering anger and resentment and an ever-present volatility in the air.  In short: eggshells.

I'm now trying to decide whether or not to tell Mrs. D when I leave here to go home, or whether to just go home without making the call. 

I've got to learn not to give a d4mn.
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« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2017, 03:25:43 PM »


My two cents... .don't call if your schedule is going to be "regular".

If there is going to be a major change... .let's say 30 minutes different than what is normal... .perhaps give a heads up.  No details... .just a vague heads up.

"Hey... .I'm disappointed to say some last minute issues have arisen at work.  Expect me 30 minutes later than normal.  "

No debate.

Here is the thing... .don't roll with the pigs... .fight with them... .etc etc.

IMO... it's common courtesy in a relationship to give a heads up for a schedule change. 

Big picture... .she may be understanding she is loosing the money fight... .and is trying to "poke" something else.  Make sure you are not "pokable".

The call issue is not something to expend energy or time on.  Think about deeper issues. 

FF
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« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2017, 04:45:10 PM »

I think you're right about the "poking".

Yesterday, I just ignpored the lecture about not calling to say I'm on my way home.  Then, just as she was going to sleep, she realised she couldn't end the day on a "loss" for her, so she jabbed me with the telephone order just to exert her authority and get a last minute little victory.
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« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2017, 10:40:23 AM »

I think you're right about the "poking".

Yesterday, I just ignpored the lecture about not calling to say I'm on my way home.  Then, just as she was going to sleep, she realised she couldn't end the day on a "loss" for her, so she jabbed me with the telephone order just to exert her authority and get a last minute little victory.

I think you are likely correct on your analysis of her thought patterns.  

I've been thinking about this dynamic since my last reply.  I think I know a better way.

I think be friendly, ask when the deadline is and let her know that you'll do your best is likely the most neutral and healthy way.  Let her know you "have a lot on your mind" at the moment.

Knowing she can do it if it really is needed.  You are being friendly... .but not being at her beck and call... .and you are not "tossing it back in her face".

Now... .if she is disrespectful or demanding... or orders you to do it... .then don't do it.

I made gains in this area with the phrase "I'm your husband, not your employee."  Then I would keep going about my business.  Please understand, this made it better... .but didn't "fix" it.  It went from intolerable to tolerable.  

Thoughts?

FF

PS  Was she friendly and kind when she called down... .or demanding?  My husband/employee thing is not what you say to someone being friendly... .but to someone acting like a dictator.

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« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2017, 04:00:22 PM »

Yesterday when I got home she and our son were out at his swimming lesson. Needless to say she didn't call me to say she was on her way back.  Which is fine, as far as I'm concerned. But I'm not the one with the abandonment issues.  And with her, there are usually rules for me which she thinks don't apply to her.

This afternoon I will get home once again at the more or less usual time of 5pm. I think I'm going to go with the original suggestion of saying: "I usually get home at around 5.  If it looks like I'm going to be a lot earlier or a lot later, I'll let you know."

If she kicks up a fuss, I'll just let her rant for a few seconds, then I'll change the subject or find something to do elsewhere. 
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« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2017, 09:16:06 PM »

 
My suggestion... don't explain it... .just do it.

Less words are usually better.

If she brings it up, then explain it in a more full fashion.

If she presses the issue even further... let her know that it is confusing to you and that you will understand better if she demonstrates to you... what her expectations are of you to her.

So... texting about her plans and all that.

 Smiling (click to insert in post)

Try really hard not to make it sound like a smart alleck comment.

I used to "poke the bear" some with my wife... by pointing out hypocrisy and saying... "Hey Babe... .this appears to be possibly hypocritical... .and... .since I know you are not a hypocrite I know you would want a chance to correct that... ."

See how the compliment "corners" them... .   Smiling (click to insert in post) Smiling (click to insert in post)

Then after they flop around some... ."Oh my... are you saying you are a hypocrite... ?"

FF
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« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2017, 10:17:08 PM »

I think I'm going to refrain from pointing out her own hypocrisy. 

When she knows I've got her cornered or even just criticized the slightest thing about her, she always fights back twice as hard but from a different angle, opening up a whole other battle front. 

For example, in the past, I've told her that I'm feeling lonely and want her to spend more quality time with me and before I know it there's a whole tornado of BPD rage and I've found myself apologising for not taking out the trash and not ironing her blouses the way she wanted.  I'm not going back to that. So I'd rather just walk away.

It's not that I'm afraid of confrontation, I'd just prefer to avoid pointless confrontation with a BPD person with narcissistic traits.
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« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2017, 08:06:06 AM »

 
I'm going to push back on this a bit... .

I'm not suggesting you point it out in an accusatory way... .

There should be a genuine curiosity there... ."help me understand"... .let's find something we can "come together around that works for both of us"

Give her the "out" about "appearances"... .  You know she "is not" a hypocrite and you hand her the "out" by showing leadership and action.

We both know this will be incredibly uncomfortable... .and if she refuses... .again... don't accuse.

Let her know you don't understand and will have to take time to reflect... .and you hope she will as well.

Boundaries... .boundaries boundaries... .  So... we she "attacks" from a different direction... .stay nonchalant and use boundaries to protect.  It's likely an extinction burst... .don't apologize or "do anything"... .let it burn out.

Last... .and this is the biggest deal here.

When you want more intimacy/human contact/conversation... .whatever it was you were asking for... .let her know that... .give her first chance... .and then you go get it.  (note... I'm not suggesting an affair) but "lonely" can be helped with contact with other people.

It will be a powerful shift in your r/s when she realizes that YOU will get your needs met... .even when she flips out... .even we she... xyz.

Stay friendly... express that you want to be close(r) to her but don't be demanding... .let it be her choice to isolate... or come close.  You are offering... .not demanding.  You don't understand... vice accuse.

Thoughts?

FF
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« Reply #43 on: October 23, 2017, 03:14:58 PM »

"You're being very aggressive recently", she said.  I think Mrs D is beginning to notice some resistance on my part.

Here's what I think provoked the "you're being aggressive" comment:

She said she wanted me to pay for something out of my half of our money and I said that I wouldn't and couldn't because I didn't have any money left over from the family expenses this month. I told her she could pay for it out of the money I gave her for that sort of thing.

She asked me to 2 two little favors that she could easily have done herself, and I said "No, I'm not going to do that for you, as you can easily do that yourself".

She served our son warm milk (which he hates) because she is under the delusion that drinking cold drinks gives you a throat infection. My son complained about the warm milk, so I fetched him a cold one, saying that I don't believe that it will do him any harm.

I think I was simply being assertive in each case and I think she's been surprised by that and testing my resolve by playing the victim and claiming that I'm agressive.

What I didn't say is that I think HER manner of constantly making demands/orders and having her own dogmatic way is my idea of someone behaving aggressively.
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« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2017, 03:24:14 PM »


It appears to me to be a combination of projection and boundaries... .she is bumping into your boundaries and "projecting" her emotions onto you (the aggressive thing).

Or

It could be super sensitivity... they interpret an 1 as a 6 or 7 (on a 1-10 scale).

Solid work standing up for yourself... .  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

FF
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« Reply #45 on: October 23, 2017, 03:26:54 PM »

Hey Dragon72, Sounds like you are making progress with standing your ground and asserting yourself.  Like boundaries, those techniques protect you, without harming Mrs. D.  I suggest that you get ready for the F-O-G (fear, obligation and guilt) which is the three-pronged pitchfork which those w/BPD use to manipulate us Nons.

LJ
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« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2017, 08:52:51 PM »

Yesterday I told my wife about a residential training course I'm going on in a couple of weeks' time in another city an hour or so away by car, so I think her abandonment fears are beginning to bubble up.

This evening she grilled me on exactly what the course was about and who would be there too.  It didn't sound like she was asking out of interest.  It felt like she was interrogating. Ugh.

Then later, while I was flicking through Twitter, she came up behind me and had a good look at the screen.  Having nothing to hide I let her. Then she said, "Okay, let's see what you were doing before I came up behind you and reached in to touch the "Back" button. I brushed her hand away saying "Hey, get your hands off my phone".

She then got angry with me calling me rude and asking how dare I raise my hand to her.  She grabbed our son, went upstairs to bed with him, slamming the door behind her.

I don't actually mind her seeing what I do on my phone (my activity on this site excepted). What I do object to is the constant feeling that I am under surveillance and suspicion from the person who I thought I would willingly share my life with.  It's ironic.
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« Reply #47 on: November 08, 2017, 03:06:43 PM »


You held a boundary, she didn't like it.

Did she ask and get a reply from you before physically reaching for your phone?

I don't see the difference in her doing that and you brushing it away.

Has this happened in the past?  Other "physical issues" in the past?

Again... I think you did fine, but anything physical will set a precedent and you want to be very careful and consistent with boundaries and how that is handled.

Usually a good idea to succinctly address this issue in moment of calm (to be proactive about making sure there is not a next time... as much as you can control that).

FF
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« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2017, 11:24:57 AM »

Excerpt
What I do object to is the constant feeling that I am under surveillance and suspicion from the person who I thought I would willingly share my life with.  It's ironic.

I can relate, Dragon, because my BPDxW harbored the same suspicions.  In my view, we all need a zone of privacy, or "bubble," which is about having good boundaries.  Suggest you continue to protect this zone.  I had to put a passcode on my phone because my W was constantly snooping, which included looking at confidential communications w/ clients, which was a big red flag  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post).

LuckyJim

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« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2017, 12:46:35 PM »


"It's a job she could have easily done herself, so it struck me as simply a way of her exerting control."
 
"I felt like a teenager being lectured by his mom." 

Happens to me all the time Dragon72 !
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« Reply #50 on: November 10, 2017, 04:34:50 PM »

About the phone privacy, something she used to do when there was still a modicum of playfulness left in our relationship was to creep up on me when she knew I was looking at my phone and go "Boo!".  She would then look closely at the screen hoping to have caught me in the act.  I really don't like people surprising me with a "Boo" when I think I'm alone, whatever I'm doing.  She seemed to think it was hilarious.  Thankfully that has stopped.

However, what still happens is that, whenever I type anything on my phone, when I'm googling something for example, she asks me "Who are you sending a message to?". I'm not sending a message to anybody.

The constant suspicion and sneaky surveillance is tiring.
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« Reply #51 on: November 11, 2017, 08:18:35 AM »


How do you respond when she asks who you are sending a message to? 

That is probably the key to potentially changing this behavior in her.

It is likely that she is "getting something" from this or it "works" for her in some fashion.  It is unlikely that she is doing it to "punish you" or to "make you feel something".  Remember... this is about her and her feelings (even though I understand your feelings are being hurt in this). 

So, if you can depersonalize this so you can consistently change your reactions, it is likely that we can figure out something that "doesn't work for her" and stick with that. 

Combine this with some proactive "checking in" on her feelings and perhaps a new dynamic can emerge.  Expect this to take a while.

 

Hang in there.

FF
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« Reply #52 on: November 11, 2017, 08:56:10 AM »

I normally react by saying the truth about what I'm doing in as dispassionate a voice as I can muster. "Actually I'm checking the weather forecast."

I see that as the best way to respond.

If I respond sharply by complaining about her suspicious mind, that'll only fan her flames. Likewise, if I flat out ignore her comment, she'll kick off about how rude that is. And she'd be right.

I don't know what other options I have.
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« Reply #53 on: November 11, 2017, 04:37:48 PM »

 

I would suggest staying friendly... .perhaps a little bit startled.  "Oh my!... .I was lost in a private thought there for a moment.  Let me put this phone away and pay attention to you.  Want me to get some tea and we can talk?"

Then... ."lean in" (slightly) to the r/s... ask about her.  Don't debate your privacy.  If she presses... .be bemused at her perception of "entitlement" to jump into your privacy whenever she wants.

"Babe... .rest assured if I come across something interesting online, I'll share it with you."

FF


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« Reply #54 on: November 11, 2017, 08:26:03 PM »

It's clear her abandonment antennae are up.

No doubt exacerbated by the fact that her parents have just left the country after a short-ish visit during which my mother-in-law (76) divided her material things between her children with a clear but unspoken message that she doesn't have long left in this world.

And now Mom's no longer in the country she's turning her abandonment fears on to me.  This morning at the breakfast table, I was singing a song I have been teaching myself to play on the guitar. I was in a good mood and I like the song so I was singing it with "gusto".

Her response, "Are you in love?"

She didn't say it in a jokey way. I could tell that it was a genuine fear in her head at the time.

Another example: every Sunday she goes to church with our son.  I'm not religious so I usually stay behind at the house and do chores or go for a run.  Last Sunday she was running late for church and so I helped her get herself and our son ready. She understood that to mean that I was eager for them to leave so I could be alone in the house. So she suddenly decided to skip church last weekend.

Now I know what Winston Smith went through.

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« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2017, 09:19:54 AM »

 
How can you be "proactive" to assure her?  Very different than being "reactive".

How did you answer the question about "being in love"?

FF
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« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2017, 11:36:47 AM »

I just ignored the question about being in love.

The truth is, I'm not in love with anybody.  I fell out of love with my wife years ago. When the devaluation started, when she withdrew all emotional intimacy and she chose to lead a separate life under our shared roof, and when I came to the realization that she's never going to be able to have a mutually giving and loving relationship with me.
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« Reply #57 on: November 12, 2017, 05:02:48 PM »

 
Never is a big word... .if she's "never" going to (fill in the blank)... .that's going to affect your attitude towards her... .which she will sense... .which will affect your r/s... .which will affect your attitude... .which she will sense... .which will become a self fulfilling prophecy.

Now... .I'm not suggesting a blatant lie.  I am suggesting that you could have used the question for the good of the relationship.

"Are you asking if I am in love with you?"

"Are you asking if I am committed to you?"

"Are you asking about my feelings for you?"  (this would be my best choice... given what I know of your feelings)  Because she would likely not confirm this, which would get you out of saying if you love her or not.

How long has it been since you have said you love her?

How long since she has said that to you?

FF
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« Reply #58 on: November 12, 2017, 05:03:28 PM »


How often do you ignore questions from her? 


FF
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« Reply #59 on: November 12, 2017, 09:48:14 PM »

I'm not in the habit of not answering questions from her. However I have done it in the past one or two times when I have felt that she has asked me a question not because she wants an answer but because she is trying to either provoke a reaction or manipulate my behaviour. 

For example, recently, after I had spent an hour and a half or so thoroughly cleaning the rooms downstairs on a Sunday morning to do my bit to help out with the housework, instead of saying "thanks for doing that", she asked, "Why did you drop that cushion on the floor?".  I honestly don't know what answer she wanted. 

I think I was the last person to say I love you. I think it was about a year ago and I remember not believing it when I said it.  That's why I haven't said it since.  Because I don't believe I do love her.

The last time she said it to me was a month or two before that.  It didn't sound too convincing from her either.  I think it was when she was asking me to do something for her.
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Can You Help Us Stay on the Air in 2024?

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Our 2023 Financial Sponsors
We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
12years
alterK
AskingWhy
At Bay
Cat Familiar
CoherentMoose
drained1996
EZEarache
Flora and Fauna
ForeverDad
Gemsforeyes
Goldcrest
Harri
healthfreedom4s
hope2727
khibomsis
Lemon Squeezy
Memorial Donation (4)
Methos
Methuen
Mommydoc
Mutt
P.F.Change
Penumbra66
Red22
Rev
SamwizeGamgee
Skip
Swimmy55
Tartan Pants
Turkish
whirlpoollife



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