Bullying and domestic violence: When do I involve third parties? Pt 2

[Radcliff]

This thread has been continued from a previous thread:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=316175.0;all

We had a breakthrough conversation this evening and agreed to limits and consequences for DV.  I will give a more complete update when I am able.

Continuation of:
Bullying and domestic violence: When do I involve third parties? Pt 1
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=316175

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[pearlsw]

Wow af, I am hoping this is a positive step and awaiting your update as time allows. It is truly heartbreaking to think of anyone physically attacking you in any way. You are such a good fellow! Head high! We're here!

[Radcliff]

Hello everyone.  Here is the update I promised on Sunday night.  It's long, but I didn't want to miss any detail or nuance that would be important to learning the most from what has happened.

As mentioned in my previous post, on Friday, after a couple of months without any violence, my wife stomped on the tendon in the back of my foot and shoved me against the bathroom wall.  I was caught a little by surprise, with only had half my planning done.  That night, I called an old friend from college and came clean with him about what was going on.  Over the day and evening Saturday I had several conversations with her trying to get an agreement to not be violent, with no success.  My last post left off with me planning on going to the police.

On Sunday, I told my wife I needed time alone and left to go to a coffee shop.  I left through the back door so the exact moment I was leaving was not visible to her.  I did not tell her where I was going.  I did emotionally need some time alone, but I also needed time alone on my computer to get done the things I needed to get done.  My intent was to get all the work done, then go home to touch base and see what my daughters needed and what the state of things was before I actually went to the police.

I was at the coffee shop for about four hours.  The first thing I did was post an update to the board outlining my plan.  Then I wrote an e-mail to my college friend, describing what was going on.  This was important so my true situation and motivations were recorded in case my wife beat me to the police station with accusations (not likely, but something she had threatened), or in case I decided not to go to the police and later my wife and I had two-way accusations, so it would be clear that I hadn't just made something up in reaction to her accusation.

Then I wrote a one page letter to the police and prepared a couple of attachments documenting the incidents I was going to report.  Having talked to my local police briefly at the station on Thursday night, I knew they were professional and open minded about a female offender/male victim, but I also knew it was outside their experience.  While I felt I'd made a start with my general introduction to the police on Thursday, I wanted to get my thoughts clear in writing to resoundingly establish credibility very quickly when I walked into the station an actual event, rather than stumbling through a verbal interview with myself and maybe the interviewing officer on unfamiliar ground.

I have journaled a lot of incidents, but I my aim was not to cause damage to my wife or get validation or justice for everything I'd experienced, just to make a report with enough credibility that I could be pretty confident it would be accepted without me ending up on the defensive.  If things came to it, I could always share more later with a prosecutor or divorce attorney.  I picked two days to describe to the police -- Friday night, since it was the most recent incident, and a day two months previously, to show a pattern (I had a photograph and some torn clothing from that day).  The two events I picked were definitely misdemeanor assault in our jurisdiction (kicking, shoving, striking with an elbow, etc.) but I realized that something that had happened at a nearby time could cause potentially larger trouble for my wife that I couldn't predict, so I was deliberately narrow in what I described.

In addition to giving brief factual detail on the incidents, my letter described my efforts Saturday to get her to agree to be nonviolent, and that my motivation for coming to them as a last resort was to get help for my family.  I am sure the police sometimes see people who are trying to score points against a spouse in a combative relationship, so I wanted to put that issue to bed before it came up.  Mark Twain once said, "I would have written you a shorter letter, but I didn't have time."  I took the time to make sure this one was not too long and wordy (as opposed to some of my posts

About three hours into my four hour coffee shop stay, my wife started trying to contact me.  I said I'd be home soon.  I was BIFF, but didn't tell her where I was.  I finished my letter, saved it but didn't send it, and went home.  We talked a bit when I got home.  She was shaky and in a zone between white and black, trying to make sense of what was happening.  We did some things for the kids for a couple of hours, then started talking.

I continued with the patient, humble, and firm approach.  Each time she said she thought we should get divorced or she thought I was aiming for divorce, I said that I didn't want that, but I couldn't tell her what to do, and she was strong and capable, so I knew she would be OK if she went that route.  It was clear that she wanted to reconcile even though she wasn't fully saying it.  Seeing the chance for reconciliation, I could easily have thrown away all the progress and just made up with her as I had done for so many years, but after all this work I was determined not to do that without an agreement not to be violent, with consequences.  If that meant she filed for divorce, I was at peace with that.  When she said that I also do things that hurt her, I agreed that I've caused her emotional pain, but pointed out calmly that some of the things she was doing were against the law, and there was a reason for that.  This also had to be said several times.  I said that she was the mother of my children, that she could get into trouble, and I didn't want that.

She is intuitive, and though I hadn't said it, she knew that the sudden shift in my behavior had to be influenced by outsiders.  She wanted to know who.  She asked me what I'd done and who I'd seen when I was away for a few hours.  As gently as I could, I deflected.  She asked me if I'd done anything irrevocable.  I said, "no."  She asked if I was at the police station.  I said, "no."  She said that she respected the strength I was showing, but felt it was unfair for me to be involving third parties.  I said that the third party involvement was narrowly focused on DV, not something I wanted either, that it would be there as long as the DV was there, but only if the DV was there.  Though I had not made overt threats, I had been asking her earnestly for a couple of days to work with me and said a couple of times I didn't want her to get in trouble.  Combined with the fact she knew I was talking to outsiders, and that I'd been gone from the house, she knew something was up and probably figured correctly that a police report was a near possibility.  But I had not used overt conflict or threats, and had open arms, so she was still able to come towards me without reacting like I was the enemy.  I believe the third party involvement was important not just because it was threatening to her, but also because it disrupted the two-way struggle we had going on, where it was her reality pitted against mine on equal footing, and she reflexively fought to win.

For the first time ever, she agreed that getting physical was wrong.  She talked about her childhood.  She said that even though I knew about it, I couldn't ever understand, that she had learned to survive and had to do whatever it took to never be helpless again, that whenever she feels like I'm abandoning her she feels helpless.  She said that when I joined with her knowing her background, I'd taken the whole package and I needed to support her.  I agreed that I'd signed on to being her guy, that she was a survivor and I could never fully understand, that I was committed to a level of patience and understanding that respected her needs, but that some of the things she was doing were putting our family at risk and that was going to stop.  She said that I contributed to the dynamic, and I agreed, but each time I brought it back to the fact that there was a line that could not be crossed.  We agreed to work together on the dynamics that start things going off the rails.

Then, over the course of 20 minutes or so of conversation, I set the limits and consequences.  I did not ask for her agreement and I was firm, but I tried to be gentle at the same time.  I said that for something big, like tackling, I'd call the police.  Then I let the conversation wander for a bit, then repeated the limit and consequence.  Then I let conversation wander, and came back to say that if it was something in a middle zone, I'd call the U.S. national DV hotline at 1-800-799-7233.  I like this consequence because she really doesn't want outsiders involved, so it's something she wants to avoid, yet it is anonymous and doesn't come with any long lasting ramifications, which means I can err on the sensitive side in using it.  For smaller things like a subtle hip bump in the hall or a short blocking of my path we can try to de-escalate on our own.  Three levels of boundaries and consequences.  There is intentionally some ambiguity since it's impossible to predict everything.  This gives me some flexibility to adjust to a situation, but also will require me to be disciplined enough not to be too lax.

We came very close to police involvement that very possibly could have resulted in an arrest.  One of the early posts from a senior member talked about steadily increasing the pressure on my wife, and this was what worked.  I started off probably a little on the fast side, but I kind of needed to kick start things.  I kept trying, easing off temporarily when needed, always mindful of physical and emotional safety.  One thing I want to say is that I was definitely moving very fast from my wife's perspective.  I thought all was lost and it was time to go to the police on Saturday.  I didn't know how fast was too fast, but the fact that I kept checking back in with my wife after intervals of not discussing it, that I gave it an extra day, that I gave her time alone and got my plan totally ready to the point that I just had to send the drafted e-mail to the police, but then checked back in with her one more time, was the thing that did it.  On Sunday I was erring on the slow side, but my plan was always moving forward, so I didn't feel like I was being untrue to myself by delaying, and at the same time it was increasing pressure on her but in an indirect way.

I recognize that this is just a milestone in our journey, not an endpoint.  There are still many relationship issues and lots of work ahead.  It will not be easy.  I will do everything I can to hold the ground we've gained and honor the investment you all have made in us.  The last day has been good.  My wife has said "I'm sorry," which I've heard maybe six times in our entire marriage, and "I love you" which I hear a few times a year.  We are going to dinner tonight, and I'm going to turn off my cell phone   I am still adjusting to how much has happened in the last few days.  I could not have done it or even envisioned it without the guidance of senior members on this board, and the advice and support of everyone.  I am not a pilot, but feel like I just landed a 777 while being guided by the people in the control tower.  Thank you all.

[Tattered Heart]

Congratulations! I'm sure that is a huge sense of relief for you. Your patience, kindness, and willingness to protect and honor your wife in all of this is very respectable.

I hope that you both continue to make forward strides. Don't forget the positive reinforcement when things go well.

The two way dynamic you mentioned is often one that leaves the victim of DV feeling isolated and alone. It took a lot of bravery for you to involve a 3rd party, but it seemed to help a lot. And now that you have reached out for that help, it will be easier if a next time occurs. It will be important to update them as needed on how things are going.

You've put in a lot of hard work. You should be proud of yourself for making such big steps. 

[ozmatoz]

Radcliff I'm glad to hear some positive news.  I wish I had taken the time to create a plan before the police showed up at my house for DV, but as one knows with BPD some times plans get tossed out the window.  Any boundary discussions immediately cause dysregulation.

Keep up the good work, I know how hard it is to find patience when the rest of the world expects you to keep on trucking.

Maybe you can get some sleep tonight?

One day at a time.
-Oz

[Radcliff]

Thanks for the encouragement, ozmatoz, Tattered Heart, and pearlsw!

I just wanted to post an update that we had an argument about a financial topic last night, and the boundaries held in a situation where in the past I'm pretty sure it would have gotten abusive.  I could visibly see her checking her impulses, and told her how much I appreciated that she was playing it cool.

[Radcliff]

The agreement my wife and I have on physical abuse is that for a blow, tackling, etc. I call the police, for something in the middle like a small shove or short entrapment I'll call the hotline, and for a minor hip bump or physical intimidation we can resolve it on our own.

During the last interchange this weekend, I believe I was solidly in possession of my wise mind, and did not get emotionally aroused at all.  But her mockery and abuse got to a level that saddened me.  Not only did I not want to be exposed to it, I didn't want to see someone I care about acting this way, and I felt like it can't be good for *her* to be acting this way.  Essentially, it felt like verbal violence and something that my values tell me I should diminish in my home, even if it means I need to walk away to stop it.

My wife and I are absolutely not aligned on this.  Her view is that I deserve whatever she says, and she accepts no bounds on what she says.  I am thinking that this is a core value for me; does that sound like it matches the definition that we are talking about for a core value?

Back to the physical abuse that Skip asked about, during a discussion last night, my wife brought it up, and it appears that despite her apology and admission it was wrong during our "breakthrough conversation" she has retracted that and accused me of being an exaggerating coward, saying she has done nothing wrong.   I have not been raising the issue, nor stuck on her admitting wrong -- I've been happy with the fact that the agreement is holding, and wasn't bothered by mild protests from her.  But the fact that last night she was so vigorously recanting is very troubling to me, because it makes me think that we may have a misaligned values situation that may doom us.  The situation is evolving, since I'm recognizing and acting on some core values I'd ignored for many years, so I'm trying to remember not to put too much stock in one or two events, but it is difficult.  I think I need to continue to work on better defining my core values, and in calm times trying to discuss values with her and get aligned.  Sorry, I'm digressing from the thread.

Radcliff

[Skip]

OK, good explanation. I think I have it.

Skip, the agreement on physical abuse is that for a blow, tackling, etc. I call the police, for something in the middle like a small shove or short entrapment I'll call the hotline, and for a minor hip bump or physical intimidation we can resolve it on our own.

We had talked about the importance of zero tolerance with DV and slowly and systematically tightening the enforcement by exposing the DV to friends and families and school and church (e.g. going to her parents and asking them to help by taking your call when there is a problem and talking to their daughter) and then moving up to police or CPS intervention. The reasons for slowly tighten is because it has been allowed for so long you need to phase it in.

Bottom line, until you drive this home, you are not going to make a lot of headway with the softer issues like being mouthy. Furthermore, if you can resolve the DV, you relationship in effectively over and you need to get out.

I'm don't want to soften this statement, because your future, one way or another, depends on getting to zero tolerance in a few short months.

Why start with DV? Because 100% of the world will stand behind you and echo your demand for 100%. Priest, friends, family, cops, school counselor, employer, mailman - heck, even the NFL. If you can't effect zero tolerance with all these tools, you don't stand a chance of softer issues.

As I read your word, I don't hear a firm commitment to this from you. And the golden rule is that if you can't walk the talk, don't expect anyone to follow.

More importantly, she doesn't hear a firm commitment either. Think of her use of the word "coward". Think of your use if the words, "she has retracted".  Of course she retracted. She will retract right after she hits you with a chair too. She's not going to thank you for calling the cops.

What you bought by getting her to agree was to hear the seriousness and acknowledge it. The next incident, you ask her mom for help with this problem. The next incident, you go to the school counselor. You started the process.

She doesn't have to re-up every week.

Now, you boxed yourself in a little. I say a little because you can wiggle out, its early.  

Think of the how you parsed this here - short entrapment, body blocking, shoving is all kinda OK - worst case you call 1-800-DOM-VILCE and talk to someone. So shoving and shouting ok, hitting with a chair is not.

So now you are going to say, don't say hurtful words?  Shoving OK. Words bad.

This is not systematically closing in on zero tolerance or DV and intimidation. The idea here (specifically for violence, criminal activity, etc) is unique in that you have to drive it to zero tolerance. No entrapment, no bullying, no hip checking. No intimidation.

But first you have to walk the talk. You have to shed, in your own heart, your tentativeness.  That is the biggest barrier right.

How can you do that? Don't hide in hotels. Don't look for validation about zero tolerance. Don't be intimidated by trash talk. Stand tall to it.

Her: Radcliff you are a weak pussy willow of and child man.
Radcliff: OK, pussy willow of man child, got it. Do you know where my blue shirt is? Has the dog been out?

Lean into it, BB.

Take away the reward that you have been giving her. When she feels bad, she takes it out on you - and when you sneak of to a hotel, or make hurt puppy eyes, she effectively shifts the pain off of her and onto you. Its how she soothes herself. The minute she doesn't get that payoff (and she will up the chips a few times when you bluff her, so be ready) is the minute she will stop. Conversely, the more you cower, the harder she is going to come at you.

This requires a lot a change from you. Are you up to this?

[Radcliff]

OK, Skip, you are continuing to rack up a track record of good predictions.  Judging by her derisive comments, the hotline consequence has totally lost its teeth for her.  Thanks for the explanation, now I see where I was not following your advice as intended.  I had a tiered set of consequences matched to levels of violence, as opposed to the tiered set of consequences tied to zero tolerance, and escalating the consequences to give us time to adjust to the change in behaviors.  Thanks for clarifying.  No worries on my level of commitment, too much has been invested to turn back now.  Plus for the last little while it's been fantastic to worry less about things getting physical, so I'm not planning on giving up that improvement.  I am definitely willing to "lean into it" as you say, though it's a challenge to strike the right balance, doing that while also not escalating or going to a corner of the drama triangle.

Tonight the police came to our house.  I'm safe, and still in possession of my wise mind, but will let you know what happened to fill you in.  I'm grateful for the help, but don't want to take over the thread if it's inappropriate, so I'm happy to move the discussion anywhere that's appropriate if we should.

This evening, I talked to her on the phone for 2.5 hours while on the way home from work.  I pulled into a parking lot near my house, as she seemed content to not have me home, and I found being in the car alone was a nice help in staying calm.  Her main theme was that I was not "all in" and in order to move forward she needed me to destroy video and audio I have of her assaulting me.  I politely refused.  I worked gently at reconciliation, and she kept bringing it back to my DV claims being garbage.

Eventually I went home.  As we both sat in the family room, she asked me if there was paper in the printer.  I checked for her, and she printed an embarrassing e-mail that she is threatening to use against me in a hypothetical divorce proceeding.  I picked it up of the printer next to me, and she chased me and bumped me lightly. [Missed opportunity to de-escalate by giving up the printout].  She then said she was going to call the police.  She picked up the phone, appeared to dial, and in a shaky voice said that she had a domestic situation and could they please come quick.  She then went to sit on the front doorstep as if to wait for them.  Fully convinced that she had called the police, I called them to check in and make sure they understood the situation and had a safe arrival.  When I found out she hadn't called, I asked them if they could cancel, which of course they couldn't.  They came, talked to us, and left.  I said I'd be happy to hit a coffee shop for a couple of hours to get some work done, then go home and sleep on the couch.

I have no idea what's going to happen now.  I'm hoping to de-escalate while still protecting the DV boundary.  D16 is applying early to her dream college on Nov. 1, and needs both my wife and I fully present to support her.  Other than preventing DV, that is my highest priority.  I know that may seem strange to some, but she has worked so hard, and her dream is so big, I don't want us to screw it up.

[Skip]

Thanks for the explanation, now I see where I was not following your advice as intended.  I had a tiered set of consequences matched to levels of violence, as opposed to the tiered set of consequences tied to zero tolerance, and escalating the consequences to give us time to adjust to the change in behaviors.  Thanks for clarifying.

Exactly! 

No worries on my level of commitment, too much has been invested to turn back now.

Maybe the word is "conviction". You need to exude conviction. This doesn't conflict with supporting your daughter - your quest for zero tolerance doesn't take a day off. You can do both.

I am definitely willing to "lean into it" as you say, though it's a challenge to strike the right balance, doing that while also not escalating or going to a corner of the drama triangle.

This is what I mean by lean into it. This video is the story of Charli having her playtime with Shadow (the horse) interrupted by an aggressive husky who has torn up several dogs in the neighborhood. This is the first time they met.

Charli leans into it at the moment of attack. Cool, calm, strong. She never backs away. She never escalates.

At the end of the video, look at the expression on the husky's face.


Date: 0Minutes: 0:51
Lean into it.

Her main theme was that I was not "all in" and in order to move forward she needed me to destroy video and audio I have of her assaulting me.  I politely refused.  I worked gently at reconciliation, and she kept bringing it back to my DV claims being garbage.

Good! As they say, sunlight is the best disinfectant for DV. She doesn't want the world to see her as a bully. When things are calm, let her know that the videos are about healing the family going forward. Let her hear that in a loving way. If she dismisses it, its OK. She will have heard it. Stick with that narrative. Yo are doing this for her, the child, the family.

She picked up the phone, appeared to dial, and in a shaky voice said that she had a domestic situation and could they please come quick... //... When I found out she hadn't called, I asked them if they could cancel, which of course they couldn't.  They came, talked to us, and left.

Wow. You couldn't have scripted this better. You got a freebie - she set herself up. No one went to jail (get the police report).

You can save your family from DV. Just slowly tighten the noose and keep the narrative that you are trying to heal the family front and forward.

[Turkish]

As they say, sunlight is the best disinfectant for DV

My T said something like this when I reported my ex-BIL for likely molesting our D (it was resolved, no lasting harm, D is safe and hasn't mentioned it in over a year,  but major drama at the time). Similar to your situation,  authorities were then aware: No more hiding,  as in my ex tried to talk to her family about suspicions she had. My ex was shamed for even mentioning suspicions.  It was buried.  Found this out after the fact. 

Me reporting was necessary,  and the "sunlight" on the situation helped my ex and I enact boundaries; whereas,  my ex had previously tried and her mother ignored and shamed her. Her family dynamic was growing up in a violent household where no one talked about it.   

It's the "we need to keep this hidden" and "we can handle it behind closed doors" aspects of abuse which are insidious. 

[ozmatoz]

During the last interchange this weekend, I believe I was solidly in possession of my wise mind, and did not get emotionally aroused at all.  But her mockery and abuse got to a level that saddened me.  Not only did I not want to be exposed to it, I didn't want to see someone I care about acting this way, and I felt like it can't be good for *her* to be acting this way.  Essentially, it felt like verbal violence and something that my values tell me I should diminish in my home, even if it means I need to walk away to stop it.

My wife and I are absolutely not aligned on this.  Her view is that I deserve whatever she says, and she accepts no bounds on what she says.  I am thinking that this is a core value for me; does that sound like it matches the definition that we are talking about for a core value?

I've often found the verbal abuse for me to be the hardest to deal with.  I'm a caring compassionate person so for me?  Words hurt more than the physical stuff I've dealt with.

Keep up the strong work on the boundaries, I've been following along, Radcliff as you know you and I have some similar issues.  Skip thank you for being such a help to Radcliff and others following along.

Be well,
-Oz

[pearlsw]

Hi BB, No, that doesn't seem strange at all and is incredibly thoughtful of you to be thinking of how this impacts your kids! It is a critical time for your daughter and she really needs her family to be functioning. What you are doing is trying to achieve that.

This was your first time having police called into the situation. Well, after that car incident. But the first time at the house. What is the fallout from that? Do you feel this gave her a wake up call? It was a lucky break actually, as Skip said, because she can't use this kind of fake call thing to scare you which I think she was trying to do, is that right?

About the videos. Maybe I can offer an alternative position. Be careful because holding these could drive her to a breaking point. I wonder if just knowing that they are at your lawyer's instead of directly in your hands could sort of serve to depersonalize it? I agree you have every right to such evidence to protect yourself against false claims and to back up your version of things, but I am also wary that people do have psychological breaking points and get obsessed. This could lead to all manner of unexpected things as it upsets her and she can't regulate her emotions well. Again, I am not saying you are not entitled and well within your rights to have this but never threaten with it. I am sure you don't. But be careful.  She is used to having all the weapons and using them against you. She is not used to you have any weapons against her and suddenly you have a big powerful weapon as she sees it. She could get much worse before this gets better, nevertheless you must persist.

You dear soul. I am so sorry you are having such struggles.  

[pearlsw]

Hey man, Also thinking... .I wonder if you are JADE-ing a bit on this "all in" thing? It sounds as if there is some ongoing argument about what the relationship means and who really is or isn't working on it and is "all in". Is that correct? I wonder if there is a way out of this dynamic?

You are all in. As all in anyone can be who is being physically threatened and verbally threatened with divorce. You do counseling, you are not threatening divorce, you care about her, you want better communication, you are parenting and in the family home. In! It is not up for debate. Don't let her keep spinning around on that one by arguing over it. Acknowledge the feelings she is having. She feels insecure because you are responding to her DV differently. She may know she needs to change, but not know how to get there yet. She is used to the default position of blaming you for everything, even her own physical abuse towards you. But whether you are in or not is not debatable, so stop debating it. She wants to win that argument because it puts you in the one down position. Get on the same team. You both want this to work. Having no DV is the first big step towards getting there. That is the reality of the situation. Take care!

[pearlsw]

"Back to the physical abuse that Skip asked about, during a discussion last night, my wife brought it up, and it appears that despite her apology and admission it was wrong during our "breakthrough conversation" she has retracted that and accused me of being an exaggerating coward, saying she has done nothing wrong.   I have not been raising the issue, nor stuck on her admitting wrong -- I've been happy with the fact that the agreement is holding, and wasn't bothered by mild protests from her.  But the fact that last night she was so vigorously recanting is very troubling to me, because it makes me think that we may have a misaligned values situation that may doom us."

Her backing away from an apology is to be expected. She still wants control over the narrative of the relationship. She tries to control it this way. Her accusations are meant to psychologically undermine you and regain her one up position. She held this for a long time and will not give it up easily. She is trying to win and make you lose. That was comfortable and her way of functioning, but that is not how marriages can ultimately last. Fighting tooth and nail to be right, when on top of that she is clearly wrong in trying to justify her physical abuse, will get her nowhere. She just doesn't know it.

I do worry. If she has no remorse over the physical abuse, or none that she can express... .that is tough. That is tough because that means she feels fully entitled to do this and only her feelings matter. It is so incredibly tragic how relationships can get to this point. I can really understand how sad you felt at these moments watching her behaving in this way.

It is so tough because on other issues you might be able to accept incremental change but on this issue it is very clear. She can't be able to do this and get away with it. How did the talk with the police go? How did she handle herself with them? Did she deny to them to? No need to answer all my questions, just mean to be here with you through this to support as you've supported so many of us so much.

I think this is absolutely right: " I think I need to continue to work on better defining my core values, and in calm times trying to discuss values with her and get aligned." Those conversations were you can get back on the same team and bring her over to your way of thinking on the DV stuff will be important to try!

[Skip]

Hi BB, No, that doesn't seem strange at all and is incredibly thoughtful of you to be thinking of how this impacts your kids! It is a critical time for your daughter and she really needs her family to be functioning. What you are doing is trying to achieve that... // ... About the videos. Maybe I can offer an alternative position. Be careful because holding these could drive her to a breaking point.  

pearlsw, I'm glad you raise these points because I think a lot of us can fall into the trap on normalizing domestic violence and physical intimidation and putting it a bucket with other domestic conflict, like calling the office too many times a day.

But these things are very different.

  It's ok to take tactical retreats or be "spongy" about phone calls to the office. Daughter needs focus for a week... .take the calls... .keep the peace. It's OK to look the other way this week because it is Christmas.

  It's of course, not OK to be "spongy" about electrocuting the cat. We all get that. Zero tolerance. There is never an OK day to electrocute the cat.  We would never say, I'll look the other way this week because it is Christmas.

So where does domestic violence fit in this scale?  

Flourdust likes to look at this in terms of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.



Maslow tells us that the importance (or luxury) of the upper divisions is a function of stability of the lower divisions. If hurricane Irma wiped out the island you were living on, the issue of office phone calls is moot.

Physical safety is a basic need for a family. What does it mean to look the other way for daughters college app? Or Christmas?

How does a person who is entrenched in intimidation become rehabilitated if we waiver and send mixed.  BB is on a plan so slowly and systematically increasing the pressure for to stop. What does it say if he reverses course.

It says, if she applies the right pressure, he will back down on this. It's a message the will complicate and drag this rehabilitation out longer. And if she doesn't eventually yield to his leadership on this, he will need all the tools he can muster to protect his family in divorce.

And lastly, what does looking the other way mean? What is the status quo in this family? The home is besieged with intimidation even when there is peace. And the peace can break out at any moment. Radcliff is often hiding from the home, staying in hotels (unannounced to the family), sneaking out back doors. This is the norm.

I think this is absolutely right: " I think I need to continue to work on better defining my core values, and in calm times trying to discuss values with her and get aligned." Those conversations were you can get back on the same team and bring her over to your way of thinking on the DV stuff will be important to try!

Absolutely. The battle needs to shift from "BB vs wife" to "BB + wife vs disillusion of marriage". If they can't resolve the physical powerball, they have to walk away.

This is not the same as values/boundaries regarding some indiscriminate spending of family funds, or a conflict over household chores (middle of the triangle stuff)... .this is a very different type of matter.

[pearlsw]

Hi Skip, I can't tell if we are agreeing or not. I should say that I used to work at a DV shelter and a Homeless shelter. In each situation I had to work closely with families in crisis. I've have to make decisions to call CPS and heard absolute horror stories from women who have been shot or stabbed or tortured by their partners. I hope I didn't say something that makes it seem as if I am normalizing DV. I am not. Perhaps I am misreading you or you me? Neither and we agree? I can't get a clear read as written.

I simply do want to acknowledge BB's concerns for his daughter. Her life matters too and that is a hard balance to find right now - how to straighten out the household, get the kids into college, and him not get physically abused. I can imagine Radcliff would make any sacrifice for his daughter, but I don't want him to have to. Ideally he could balance his needs as a spouse and father to do his part to keep his household safe, happy and healthy. I think he's described his dynamic in the past as trying to protect the kids and perhaps even enduring things he would prefer not to in order to postpone dealing with his marital stuff. I am not trying to step on toes. Although we all feel we know his situation from the board none of us really knows and we should all be exceedingly careful in guiding him through this. This will all have real consequences for his family. His whole life could collapse here and even a tragedy could occur. Once the police enter things it gets even more intense.  I feel concern for every member of the family unit, and I find it admirable that Radcliff does as well, although he must have a limit in terms of his wife being able to physically hurt him in any way. I am not here to push him just to support him as he finds his way through this, mistakes and all. This is not easy stuff. Take care!

[Skip]

Her life matters too and that is a hard balance to find right now - how to straighten out the household, get the kids into college, and him not get physically abused. I can imagine Radcliff would make any sacrifice for his daughter, but I don't want him to have to. Ideally he could balance his needs as a spouse and father to do his part to keep his household safe, happy and healthy.

We are saying something different and that is OK.

What I am saying is that if you seek to balance how to straighten out the household, get the kids into college, and him not get physically abused, you are in essentially normalizing the domestic violence with the other items. You are putting domestic violence  on the same level as the general house matters and filling out a college application.

In this type of violence, Radcliff wife does not have physical power over husband. She is smaller. The power she has in this situation is BB's need to balance balance how to straighten out the household, get the kids into college, and him not get physically abused.

This need to balance is deeply ingrained with BB, so he yields. He has moved beyond avoiding a confrontation to preemptively running in fear of potential confrontation. No one knows this better than his wife and she is enabled by all of this.

The only way through this is to slowly, systematically without hesitation, to dry up the enabling.

He has told her he is doing it. He is in the early stages of playing good cop (preemptive lets do this together chats), and smart cop (moving into calm mode when there are emerging tensions) and bad cop (a series of consequences that increases sequentially with each event).

The focus is on preemptive, well communicated, constructive intent and practical avoidance (avoiding situations with mounting tensions) and providing the structure (in this case reasonable consequences - exposure) as a deterrent. He is not engaging the fights or hitting her back, or locking her in a room - he is just unwavering is his post event exposure of any acts of domestic violence and not running in fear.

Of those phone calls you received were on the hotline, many, were the n-stage of a sequence of escalating aggression over time. My advice to Radcliff is to change that trajectory now, before it escalates to a more dangerous n-stage.

So my thoughts differ on this. Your experience is very valid, too. And one thing for sure, if he doen't have the strength and conviction to see this through, then he is better off "balancing". A half hearted effort will just raise the conflict level and could make matters worse.

This is just one of those situations where the two strategies have some level of mutual exclusivity... .you can't do both at the same time.

[pearlsw]

Hi Skip, I find your point/emphasis intriguing. It is not quite what I am trying to say so perhaps I am not wording things so well or perhaps you are seeing things through a particular lens that is a shade different than my relationship to this set of facts, there is lots of shading and nuance here on each part. I can just imagine myself in his shoes as a man, husband, and parent and with his job. He wears many hats in life. If he could shut down his whole life and just focus on this and fix it he might do that, but there are prices to pay and consequences for all. His wife could end up with DV charges, what then? His kid(s) could fall apart and what then? He could get seriously injured and what then? He could fall apart and mess up at work and then he has financial problems too. She could fall apart. What then? When he sits down and looks it over this is his normal life, all of these simultaneous choices and situations he has to deal with all at once. Shame, humiliation, embarrassment, police, court cases, kids freaked out and not functioning, potential divorce case, potential custody case, potentially losing his housing, the impact on his job, counseling for him (and others?), some people end up with substance abuse issues or health issues and then the mountain of problems gets really high. He does have balancing to do. We all do. He can only do so much at once.

Any one of these people could break and attempt suicide or end up in a hospital under increasing levels of stress. He has to make hard, unenviable choices. I think choosing to focus on the zero tolerance approach to her violence will have serious, serious consequences, but there is no way around it. It is the big, glaring issue that is flashing bright red here. I admire his bravery for facing this and working his way through it. He is committed and stepping his way through the process, but that doesn't take away from the fact that this could get a whole lot worse for the whole family before/if it ever gets better. I don't think we disagree on this. But one thing I am not doing is normalizing it.

I agree, DV is not your average communication break down. It is a terrible entrenched dynamic that can lead to very dark places. It can result in restraining orders and jail time.  It can result in permanent injuries and death. I've seen it and had to sit with it with all the compassion for the human condition I could muster while supporting others through it.  I don't want him to have to live one day with any level of concern for his safety. He should be able to have peace. So, yes, this is a priority.

Perhaps it is time to get the kids out of the household altogether and under another roof to preserve their stability, safety, life chances? It is something he has to deal with in the mix of all this - being ready to recognize when the kids may have to be removed so he can "balance" this having to stop with them also having normal lives and being able to function and succeed in school. I don't know. I don't know all the details and possibilities or what can happen on any given day of his life. I do think he is balancing or juggling quite a few extremely serious things at once. This is a complex set of crises. But I guess I imagine a juggler with a bowling ball (the DV) and a few tennis balls. Hard to "balance" all that. Sorry, you seem to take issue with that word, it signals normalizing to you. I really don't mean it the way you are taking it, but that doesn't mean it isn't all there at once and each part in need of its own set of solutions. It is all interconnected and simultaneous. I do know that it is a lot to handle at once and extremely difficult, hence my support and concern for all involved.

[Radcliff]

Hello all, thanks so much for the support.  On Tuesday night, after the police visit, I slept an hour.  I got back from the coffee shop late after giving my wife some space.  She wanted to talk about divorce at 1:30am, then woke me up at 3:30am to talk about divorce again.  Then I went to work.  Wednesday evening, we were trying to be calm, but my wife couldn't avoid baiting me.  I was so exhausted, I got to a new place that I don't think I've been before.  I knew I was such a total wreck that I couldn't trust myself to have any sort of thoughtful conversation.  In the past, I've tried to function normally or tried to contain the conversation to easier stuff.  Wednesday night I knew I was completely disabled r/s-wise.  So I just started "playing" a constant stream of soothing messages in a quiet voice.  Every time she baited me it was like she was asking me to play basketball with a broken leg, so I just shrugged to myself and kept up the "recorded" soothing messages.  It actually felt like a relief to not get pulled into deeper water than I could handle; it wasn't as hard as you'd think, because I felt safe in my decision to stay out of the deep water.  My wife calmed down to my level, and we actually ended up having one of the most productive calm conversations we'd had in months.  It helped that she was exhausted and wasn't screaming.  

Last night, we had a second calm, quiet conversation.  She is really having a hard time seeing her responsibility in things, and does not see how a fake 911 call was terribly disturbing to me and put us in a bad spot.  To be fair to her, *I* often have a hard time seeing *my* responsibility, and we need to get better at helping each other and talking through these issues in a healthy way.  I think her shame response is really giving her a hard time realizing that the physical conflict is something she needs to own - she keeps trying to say that we share equal responsibility.  I got triggered a couple of times, as did she, but we both were able to calm down and keep talking.  We agreed that we both share a lot of responsibility for escalations.  I tried to sell a "chain" model to her, where one of us does something problematic, the other does something, then the first one does something, etc. and one of us has to be the hero to break the chain.  She's more prone to see several links in the chain all with my name on them  but we can work on that.  Anyway, we are both exhausted but talking, and hopefully we can make some progress in the calm time and see if the next time we hit a bump we can de-escalate with better success.

Thanks, Skip and pearlsw for the detailed replies.  I want to find a quiet time to read and contemplate the exchange you had, but that may not be for a while.  I think Skip correctly characterizes my situation in that I was trying to balance everything, when I first have to deal with the DV.  pearlsw, thanks so much for putting so much care and thought into your replies   I will look forward to re-reading them several times and responding in a future reply!  I'm confident that it's not the best thing to remove the kids -- they are quite old, and my wife is a great mother on balance.  The only way that they would be apart is if things go very badly and there is a restraining order against her.  I'm quite committed to holding the line on DV, and things have been going well there.  This gives us the peace to work on the relationship.

Thank you again for all the support.  I could not be doing any of this without you all.  6-9 months ago, I was all alone, and coming unglued.

Radcliff

[snowglobe]

Dear @Radcliffs, I just got to the forum to see the ordeal you've been through. I can't give you an advice, as I'm often struggling with my uBPDh's physical threats and rarely dv. I'm so glad you were able to withstand the intimidation and keep your wife talking. The question that I have for you is what is the trigger for her to get violent with you. Is it the same one, or different? For my uBPDh it's emotional distegulation that comes out in a form of violence. I'm kind of like a punching bag. What's troublesome is that in both, mine and your case our spouses don't accept any responsibility or show any remorse for the physical and emotional pain they are inflicting. I often think to myself, should the roles reverse and they would be the ones affected by DV?. I don't know in your case, but in mine, just rubbing him too hard gets him yelling... .

[Radcliff]

Snowglobe, I am grateful for your support.  Can't reply more now

Skip, the quandary today is if blocking my path as I try to exit the house and then trying to lock my car so I can't get in it and drive away falls under the zero tolerance policy. 

Radcliff

[Radcliff]

Tonight is a horrible night.  It ended with my wife making suicide threats and the police taking her into custody on the road a half mile from our house and taking her to the hospital.  I am overwhelmed.

Friday night we spent several hours with my wife pressing me to delete videos and audio recordings documenting physical abuse.  Saturday she was upset all day, and drawing D12 into everything.  When I went to take a shower, she ran to the bathroom so I couldn't.  I went to the other bathroom and she used a toothpick to unlock the door as I was about to get undressed for a shower, then she went outside the bathroom and held the door shut.  At lunch, she wouldn't let me eat any of the food in the kitchen, so I calmly said I was going to go out to eat, and she ran and blocked my exit from the front door.  She told me to use the back door, and as I started to, she ran out and said she was going to take my car.  She then kept locking my car every time I unlocked it using a spare key fob she had. 

When I returned, I said that the next time she blocked me from leaving the house, I'd call the police.  The conversation did not go well.  I probably shouldn't have expected it to, because I was not introducing this idea during a calm time.  She said it was perfectly OK for her to block me, and she said one of the police officers on Tuesday told her it was OK.  She said she was going to file for divorce and have me arrested on Monday.  I knew I hadn't been clear about calling the police for blocking my exit, and just as Skip predicted, she only cared about calling the police and none of the other consequences, so she was only avoiding the outright assault behaviors I'd set a "call the police" consequence for.  Everything else was still happening. 

I'm a little at a loss for words to describe how things felt this afternoon.  I was pretty sure the no-assault boundary would hold, but it was really unnerving to have her come through the locked door into a bathroom where she has assaulted me before.  I had reached my limit with her not letting me leave the house and with her threatening to have me arrested.  She has fully co-opted D12, keeping up a steady stream of propaganda statements and calling D12 from the other side of the house several times, ridiculing me in front of D12, saying "ooh, don't block me," etc.  When D12 is not crying in her room she is lecturing me on how I should take responsibility and treat her mother with respect (these are lines she learned from my wife).

I realized my failure to deal with this means I've failed in my objective to keep things calm for my daughters, which was my main reason for not reporting anything.  I was torn between giving my wife a pass and waiting until next time, or reporting this time, despite the fact that I'd screwed up on boundary communications.  I decided that today was the day to make it stop, and I am not sure if I will regret that decision for the rest of my life.  I went to the police tonight and made a report of today's events, with video and audio, and a couple of more serious incidents from earlier this month and the summer, so the police would believe me.  The police said the report would go to the DA, and it would probably be filed and nothing done with it, which is exactly what I wanted.

On the way home from the police station, my wife called and asked me if I had been to the police station.  I probably should have lied.  She asked me a direct question, and I couldn't bring myself to lie to a direct question, plus I knew how angry she would be if the lie came out later, so I said I had been to the police station.  She asked if I'd filed a report.  I said I had.  I feel awful.  My clumsiness with setting limits, and the fact that I told my wife I'd only go to the police for physical violence, means that my wife feels unimaginable betrayal from which our relationship may not recover, and which may follow us for the rest of our life.  She asked me to cancel the report.  I said if I did that, things would just keep happening.  When I got back home, she left the house in her car.  I drove around looking for her, and she called me.  She became despondent.  She was overwhelmed with the shame, thinking it would end up in the paper and all of our friends would see it.  She said:

"I am going to go away and never come back."
"I won't survive the night."
"Maybe I will drive off a cliff by accident."
"Make sure to have a nice funeral for me."

So I called 911 on the house phone and kept her on the cell phone in my other ear.  She asked me to ask the police if I could cancel the report.  When I told her that they said I couldn't, but it wouldn't result in charges, she said, "Thanks, that's what I needed to know," then "I miss my mother, I want to be with her" (her mother died a few months ago) and "Tell the kids I said goodbye."  The police found her nearby, and took her to the hospital.

I am so overwhelmed.  I am afraid for my kids.  I want the hospital to keep her and make things all better (a fantasy), but she will probably be out in a couple of hours, and will either be completely incapacitated, or dangerous and explosive.  I feel terribly guilty for being such a screwup with limits and betraying her.  She really feels like she was following the rules.  She is so destructive, but vulnerable at the same time.  I am worried that she will never recover from this.  I am scared to pick her up at the hospital and face her, then have to care for her or manage her anger and betrayal.  How can I possibly chart a course through all of this?  I just want to hold her in my arms and have us both feel safe.

Radcliff

[Radcliff]

I just called my wife's brother to tell him what is happening.  This is the first time I've ever spoken to anyone in her family about what is going on.  He said he knows about BPD since his wife (my sister-in-law) believes her mother has it.  He received the news well and was very supportive.  He was her white night growing up, and I am hoping she will let him be there for her if she cannot allow me to support her.

Radcliff

[babyducks]

Hi Radcliff,

I am so sorry.   I am sorry that you had to experience all this.   I don't know you  but just from reading what you have written over time, I can tell you have great strength of character and amazing compassion.

I hope you can get some sleep and a decent meal.    What you have been through is an overwhelming set of experiences and will take some time to recover from.

 

'ducks

[Skip]

I feel terribly guilty for being such a screwup with limits and betraying her.  She really feels like she was following the rules.  

Yes, you didn't pitch a perfect game. We never do. She didn't either. You are doing better and that is what matters. She was physically intimidating you. You took a measured incremental step. Getting the brother involved is good. People are supporting you.

Stay calm, BB. Strength and compassion is really important right now. Not fear and weakness. Don't JADE. Dig deep. You will need to stand strong and compassionate through this storm. This reaction will return to baseline.

You are seeing the type of reaction that is to be expected.   You may see another version, next time. When her "right punch" didn't work, she tried the left punch. She feels she can break you... .bully you... .get her way by doing this.

This is very hard.

Please watch this video from Blaise Aguirre, especially the part about handling suicide threats and he part where he explains about manipulation not being manipulation, but actually learned and rewarded behavior. She is doing what she has learned works. We also do things we know that work. This is what you are changing.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=302866.0

This is a little like riding a bucking horse.  A skilled rider in strong, smart, and above all calm and confident.

Fear and second guessing and JADE Strong, constructivtive, and above all calm and confident.

[teapay]

I think you are doing pretty good and on the right track.  You've got your W the opportunity to get help, boundaries and consequences on unacceptable behavior, support from outside.  Be supportive, but mostly for positive change, but keep the pressure on.  Also, don't feel bad about changing boundaries and consequences.  Setting them at criminal behavior isn't a good long term strategy for a stable home.  She was clearly pushing to that limit, but acting irrational and unreasonable and it needed to be addreds in real time.  If you can't get your W in help, do the same for D12.

[snowglobe]

Dear @Radcliffs, first and foremost I want to asknoledge how brave you were that night. With the setuation you were given, you took the only tools available and utilized them for the better good. From the tone of your post, it sounds that you are dealing with regrets and guilt. Guilt, in imho is a wasted feeling. It brings nothing but rumification and pain to the table. The only way from here is up and looking into the future. Side note, I was wondering if you have an extended insurance that would cover psychological services for you and the girls? By the way you were describing your wife is already taking the step forward to alienate the kids and intangle them into your complex relationship. The advantage of you starting family and individual therapy is that A. Regardless where this road leads you, you will have a professional who can voucher for your stability in the court of law, B. A third party who can explain to the girls in rather simple terms what is happening and help you preserve the precious bond you have with your children, C. I don't want to scare you into anything, but you as well as I do know that your girls are at risk for developing similar ways of coping to the ones adopted by your wife. You would really benefit from someone monitoring for it.

[Skip]

She she comes home, the best thing you can do for her is to listen.  But don't try to sooth her, she must find that herself and it will take time.  Don't JADE. That will not calm her. Just let her say and do want she wants. If she wants to stay with friends, ok.  If she wants divorce, "I understand".  If she will never trust you, "I understand. Do you think I'm evil, " no".

It's hard.  Don't be a place for her to transfer her bad feelings.  At the same time, dlon't pile on. It will take time for this to reach baseline.

[Radcliff]

Hello all, I am grateful for your support.  I have read all of your replies a few times, and appreciate both the support and the advice.

Skip, thanks for the reminder below:

Stay calm, Radcliff. Strength and compassion is really important right now. Not fear and weakness. Don't JADE. Dig deep. You will need to stand strong and compassionate through this storm. This reaction will return to baseline.

I know this is what she needs, but needed the reminder not to look like a wreck and to be the image of the person she needs.  I'm going to have to act a little bit.  I also needed the reminder that things will return to baseline.  They always have.  But when things get out of control, it is hard to believe they will.

I just started that video, and she called to ask me to pick her up.  I focus on home, but will check back in when it makes sense.  Thank you all again.

Radcliff