Most ridiculous things you heard during idealization phase.Was it real for them?

[Husband321]

Looking back I think many of us miss the idealization phases that occur during recycles and at the beginning.  Was it real for them? Or a form of manipulation?

Some things I heard

(Toss football to her son 5 yards). "That's why I love you. You are so athletic. You should have played pro football"

"You will never have to stand up to get a beer/ drink for rest of your life"

"I will give you a full massage every morning and night"

"My body is yours anytime you want.  You will never be denied"

"You have the most amazing forearms.  Calfs."

"I want to drink your blood"

"You are the only man I ever made love to"

"Best sex ever"

"First kiss ruined my life as I was hooked forever"

Now of course none of the above lasted for more than a day or 2... .

But when you look at them and they are saying this, it is like pure love.  

Are these things planned out and said to hook you consciously?

As during the discard you are literally the same person, but you are just a disgusting piece of trash.

[SlyQQ]

They are really trying to convince themselves your perfect, the reality is of course its all about them, you ( as a person)are in fact somewhat irrelevant to the whole process. ( it is just whoever they are trying to make it work with at the time.)

is it real? to an extent they don't even realize what they are doing because then it wouldn't work, i think BPD invented double think. they are masters of denial.

[once removed]

idealization is a basic part of the beginning of any relationship. we idealize new friends ie "man i love this guy, i think we are best friends". we might idealize a doctor or therapist, someone who helps us ie "they saved my life, they are the smartest kindest person in the world." we idealize romantic partners, especially in the honeymoon stage of a relationship. it goes all the way back to when we idealized our parents.

where does BPD come in? people with BPD traits are impulsive, and over express themselves often - nice things or mean things tend to be over the top and driven by emotion. generally speaking, people with BPD traits are not "planners".

was it real or manipulation? ill put it to you this way: ive told a few girlfriends they were "the most beautiful girl in the world". was it real? well, as im sitting here, its not an opinion i hold. was it essentially how i felt in the moment? sure. i certainly wouldnt call it a lie. was it manipulation? well, i wanted my partner to feel good, and i wanted to express my affection, and i wanted them to love me back. there was certainly no malicious intent. would it have been realistic for them to take literally and believe wholeheartedly? probably not. it didnt stop me from getting angry at them, perhaps saying mean things, or finding anyone else attractive, for example. the only danger would be to over invest in such words, to need them, to ignore all of the other words and actions.

so most of your examples are the kinds of over the top statements couples make when they are courting each other. they tend to be said with the best of intentions. certainly a person can "butter us up", with the hope of getting something in return, whether a deed, or nice words from us. certainly someone can manipulate another person with kind words. but in terms of looking at these statements as manipulation, id have to ask "manipulation to what end?"

Looking back I think many of us miss the idealization phases that occur during recycles and at the beginning. 

this is true for many of us. it tends to be true for our partners as well. is it realistic?

[Husband321]

Thanks.  And that does make sense.  I am sure I have said those things as well.

Maybe more or less I meant the "promises" they might make.

So for example... .

"I won't pack my things again if you take me back" "we will work through anything". "I will stop smoking weed" "I will help with your business" "I won't threaten divorce again" "I will go back to school" "I will never have a locked phone again" "you been through the worst now I will show you my best" "I will start cooking". "I will keep the house clean"

Now none of the above ever happened.  It was just things she probably thought I wanted to here to take her back. Repeatedly.

And if I ever pointed out any of the above that aren't happening in a gentle way, it was an explosion and threats to leave and divorce.

When she would come back she would apologize and admit I never did anything wrong.  But just trust her once more.  And I will see... .

So do they really make an effort and remember those things they said? Or were they just said to achieve a result?

[once removed]

okay. that is a different question.

using an extreme example, think of a physically abusive husband/boyfriend who, each time, promises "things will be different, ill never do it again." and then he does it again, and then he repeats himself.

it would probably be over simplifying to call that a lie. probably, in that scenario, he both means it, and is saying what he thinks he needs to say. maybe he makes some effort (people change). maybe he turns it around, maybe he gets worse.

So do they really make an effort and remember those things they said? Or were they just said to achieve a result?

this is a more general question that doesnt have an answer. my ex made plenty of effort, and changed lots of things, and with other things, not so much. the same can be said about me.

the bottom line is this was a significant factor with your wife, and your relationship. one that was a huge problem for you, one that was a pattern over a period of time. one that, at least from what youve shared, she seemed to lack either the willingness or ability to change.

when it comes to either question, remember the "ten beliefs":

6) Clinging to the words that were said

We often cling to the positive words and promises that were voiced and ignore or minimize the negative actions. “But she said she would love me forever”. Many wonderful and expressive things may have been said during the course of the relationship, but people suffering with BPD traits are dreamers, they can be fickle, and they over-express emotions like young children – often with little thought for long term implications. You must let go of the words. It may break your heart to do so. But the fact is, the actions - all of them - are the truth.

[TurbanCowboy]

Looking back I think many of us miss the idealization phases that occur during recycles and at the beginning.  Was it real for them? Or a form of manipulation?

Some things I heard

(Toss football to her son 5 yards). "That's why I love you. You are so athletic. You should have played pro football"

"You will never have to stand up to get a beer/ drink for rest of your life"

"I will give you a full massage every morning and night"

"My body is yours anytime you want.  You will never be denied"

"You have the most amazing forearms.  Calfs."

"I want to drink your blood"

"You are the only man I ever made love to"

"Best sex ever"

"First kiss ruined my life as I was hooked forever"

Now of course none of the above lasted for more than a day or 2... .

But when you look at them and they are saying this, it is like pure love.  

Are these things planned out and said to hook you consciously?

As during the discard you are literally the same person, but you are just a disgusting piece of trash.

My wife wanted to pack me in a suitcase and move me to South America where she is from after a few weeks. Red flag

My wife admitted to me that she used to be sneaky before we met. Ughhh... .hello red flag and guess what... .YOU STIlL ARE!

[Husband321]

Yes.  That's what I mean about the sneaky/ manipulative part.

Part of me STILL goes around in my head feeling sorry for her.  Blaming myself for not being patient enough. Calm enough etc.  Sort of like she is just innocent and emotional, so I should have been more laid back. Communicated differently.

However I ignored so many red flags when I met her. She was "in love" with me, but claiming she still had to see her ex husband to see her kids.  And they weren't sexual, but I just shouldn't text too much. Then she gave me an email to use when she changed her number.   Then she had me listed in her phone as a woman. Then she said she would come see me late at night as her ex husband is jealous and she didn't want problems.  But she wasn't having sex with him.

Of course much later I found out they were sexual while we were dating. And that she was making long term promises to reunite with him at the same time she was asking me to live with her and start a family.

It's like she couldn't plan her day, but she could be living double and triple lives at once. 

So that's what I mean.  The other  part of them  is cruel, manipulative, sadistic and well planned.  It seems to be more than just random strong emotions that guide them.

And looking back so many other obvious strange stories and times she had to leave that might make sense.  Or might not.  Looking back they were probably all lies.

So that's where I have been stuck in this healing process. Trying to delineate between what was real and what wasn't.  And mainly trying to get an objective picture if they were just frail and emotional, or just excellent con artists juggling several people at once to meet their own needs.  By love bombing, words, lies, and manipulation. Gas lighting.

Sort of like if I meet a girl and knowingly tell her lies to hook her, while doing it with many other women at the same time.  That's different than for example saying "you are the most beautiful woman" during the beginning stages of a relationship where my intentions are pure.

[EdR]

Well... .the weird thing was: this was not my first pwBPD. So after the 'one before' I was quite certain I would see all the red flags. I was sure of it.

I DID NOT! The first 2-2,5 years of our friendship I did not see anything coming. I did not see the BPD traits. There sure as hell was idealisation and a lot of it. But it was more subtle and more spread out over time. I was "the best [... .]" or "the only normal [... .]". (Putting things in between brackets here, because I could be identified more easily when using the exact quotes).

Between the 2-2,5 year 'milestone' I was even thinking about my previous pwBPD and I was SO EXTREMELY HAPPY that I could feel this emotional connection with someone else without all the weird and painful stuff.

But then it all changed. I was painted black. I could not understand... .I refused to think about BPD for a very long time. I tried to approach the situation as a 'normal' one. But boy, was I wrong. It got worse and worse and finally some people mentioned the idea of BPD and I was like: "how could I have been SO blind?". It suddenly seemed to fit like a glove, but I just refused to see it for too long.

I recently met this other girl. My family asked me to meet her and so I did. She did not know me, but instantly began about how I was 'her king' or 'the son of the king' on the first day I met her. These red flags were SO clear and painful to me that I treated her nicely, but choose to not even exchange phone numbers or social media.
My parents are kind of blaming me for not giving her a chance, but I am not going into a r/s with these kind of red flags.

Unfortunately, the girl I really cared about, was a lot more subtle in her approach... .And I am sure that it was all true for her... .at the time.
Cannot say the same though for this recent girl... .

[SlyQQ]

At the core of it all , as always with BPD is there fear of abandonment.

They know you are goinhg to abandon them ( (regardless of the facts)sooner or later ) and are desperately trying to convince themselves otherwise,

the smallest slip can snowball into a massive response, then a slow backstepping as they try and rationalize things,

they will do and say anything to keep you, even while planing exit strategies so they can leave you -  before you leave them, it is being abandoned that terrorizes people with BPD, once they have been  abandoned it is something they have long prepared for and, after some initial dramas "generally" bounce back quickly. ( at which point they may or may not step back to rationalizing and try again with you)

and yes in effect yes i am saying the same thing again and again, BPD is overridden with a few key fundamentals.

[SlyQQ]

One last shot , It appears manipulative and duplicitous because while they are doing anything to keep you they are planing to leave at the same time,

it is not deliberately manipulative , just is.

[araneina]

He said to me "This is the most open and honest relationship I've ever been in."

He cheated on me.

Also, the night before his first attempt to leave me he said "I feel like I'm having to sell you on how amazing our relationship is."  The next night it was "I can't do this anymore, I'm destined to be alone."

[Maxpax2011]

Looking back I think many of us miss the idealization phases that occur during recycles and at the beginning.  Was it real for them? Or a form of manipulation?

Some things I heard

(Toss football to her son 5 yards). "That's why I love you. You are so athletic. You should have played pro football"

"You will never have to stand up to get a beer/ drink for rest of your life"

"I will give you a full massage every morning and night"

"My body is yours anytime you want.  You will never be denied"

"You have the most amazing forearms.  Calfs."

"I want to drink your blood"

"You are the only man I ever made love to"

"Best sex ever"

"First kiss ruined my life as I was hooked forever"

Now of course none of the above lasted for more than a day or 2... .

But when you look at them and they are saying this, it is like pure love.  

Are these things planned out and said to hook you consciously?

As during the discard you are literally the same person, but you are just a disgusting piece of trash.

Thinking back, my exBPD said some weird things too:

She said I could do anything I wanted to her during sex

She once said that I was being to gentle and told me not to be afraid to F!@# the hell of out her.

One time after a great sexual experience when I was enjoying her from behind, she literally turned around and high fived me after I climaxed.

She would literally grab my head and force me to look into her eyes during sex.

She told me she would always cook for me and she did in fact, plus made my lunch every morning for work.

She also did compliment my forearms and my chest many times.

She also said that she wishes I could stay inside her all night and every day.

She would tell me said loved me literally every day and after every phone conversation

She would actually stare at me while I was driving and just say how good looking I was and how good I looked driving.

She would say "Babe your the best" All the time



Thinking back, in the relationship I considered feeling very wanted and special by this behavior, but now I look back and feel creeped out by it. Also after we finally broke up, and I saw how she interacted with the new partner, it creeped me out even more, same weird lovey dovey stuff, with the same over the top compliments. It is like they are a broken record of emotional desperation. Never changes, just does it with a different partner. Same behavior, different partner, very creepy.

[JNChell]

She said she had dream that she was working in a garden and had a baby boy in a basket next to her. She knew gardening is an interest of mine. Turns out she has no interest in it. She became pregnant with our Son shortly after.

MaxPax2011, mine used to stare at me while I was driving too. It was very flattering then, but looking back it was creepy. I wonder what she was really thinking.

[In a bad way]

    and I saw how she interacted with the new partner, it creeped me out even more, same weird lovey dovey stuff, with the same over the top compliments. It is like they are a broken record of emotional desperation. Never changes, just does it with a different partner. Same behavior, different partner, very creepy.                 

It was the same here except I was the new partner, I read some old texts on her phone to her  previous BF's (on her insistence), and she had the same nicknames for them as me. Also other things she said were the same. No doubt the next guy will have the same nickname I had and she will tell him he's the one and she has never needed anyone before but she needs him, etc.
All the same.

[Maxpax2011]

It was the same here except I was the new partner, I read some old texts on her phone to her  previous BF's (on her insistence), and she had the same nicknames for them as me. Also other things she said were the same. No doubt the next guy will have the same nickname I had and she will tell him he's the one and she has never needed anyone before but she needs him, etc.
All the same.

I hear you, when I met her and got to know her, there were a lot of red flags, looking back and knowing what I know now, she treated every partner the exact same way, like a routine replayed over and over again, and it didn't matter if it was a good guy or a krappy guy, she treated them all the same. Same idealization phase at the beginning, told them they were the one, so wonderful, she told me I was her soul mate. In the two years we were together, I took her to any place she wanted to go, money was no object, we went on several trips together, I did stuff for her daughter, painted her house, did some remodeling. I helped her get the job she currently has at the local town hall, making more money than her previous job. I helped her get a good deal on the jeep she has at the dealership in town, I was close friends with the sales manager. When I finally left, she painted me black, moved on to a new guy who she said was her soul mate, she tells people he is what she has been missing her whole life. With in a few weeks of dating, they declared their relationship on Facebook, spent Christmas together. He is practically living at her house, she already posted pics of him and her daughter. As I look at how good she treats him, the exact same way she treated me and the previous guys, the whole idealization krap. I realize that no matter how good the guy is to her, or how bad he is, he could be the best guy or the worst guy. She will still give all of them the same treatment in the relationship, from Idealization to discard. The cycle will continue, and we are just another guy that they used and abused on their way to filling that empty void of loneliness and despair. True we should realize that they are mentally ill and that we should not hold a grudge, I myself have learned a lot from being with her. But we sure as heck know better than to allow ourselves to be suckered in by these women or men in the future. No contact and forget they exist, that is the best way to move on.

[TurbanCowboy]

I hear you, when I met her and got to know her, there were a lot of red flags, looking back and knowing what I know now, she treated every partner the exact same way, like a routine replayed over and over again, and it didn't matter if it was a good guy or a krappy guy, she treated them all the same. Same idealization phase at the beginning, told them they were the one, so wonderful, she told me I was her soul mate. In the two years we were together, I took her to any place she wanted to go, money was no object, we went on several trips together, I did stuff for her daughter, painted her house, did some remodeling. I helped her get the job she currently has at the local town hall, making more money than her previous job. I helped her get a good deal on the jeep she has at the dealership in town, I was close friends with the sales manager. When I finally left, she painted me black, moved on to a new guy who she said was her soul mate, she tells people he is what she has been missing her whole life. With in a few weeks of dating, they declared their relationship on Facebook, spent Christmas together. He is practically living at her house, she already posted pics of him and her daughter. As I look at how good she treats him, the exact same way she treated me and the previous guys, the whole idealization krap. I realize that no matter how good the guy is to her, or how bad he is, he could be the best guy or the worst guy. She will still give all of them the same treatment in the relationship, from Idealization to discard. The cycle will continue, and we are just another guy that they used and abused on their way to filling that empty void of loneliness and despair. True we should realize that they are mentally ill and that we should not hold a grudge, I myself have learned a lot from being with her. But we sure as heck know better than to allow ourselves to be suckered in by these women or men in the future. No contact and forget they exist, that is the best way to move on.

My wife used to tell me all the time her previous boyfriends were perfect.  I always called her out on why she was with me then. Now she is with her soul mate and he’s moved in and taunting me. I’m now the persecutor in a game of triangulation.  My wife is so desperate to keep me engaged my son is calling the guy Papi which to me is pathetic parenting. She wants to get a rise out of me.

[Jeffree]

"You are the answers to my prayers."

"They write movies about how we wound up together."

The focus on bedroom activities also was full of over-the-top compliments.

Are these things planned out and said to hook you consciously?


I think my STBx thought these are things she figured a good loving woman says to her man. Forgoing the thinking that the way to my heart was through my stomach, though she was an incredible Latin cook, I think the compliments and constant sex were part and parcel of her mindset.

I don't think it was malicious. Just pillow talk and pillow actions that she believed to be how to be in a marriage.

I think she's done the same with others and will continue to do such things. Yeah, I fell for it hook, line, and sinker. Probably will again with someone else.

Moth to a flame.

J

[Pretty Woman]

Well lets see:

How did I get so lucky, you are my dream girl-As she was cheating on me.

You are the love of my life-As she was cheating on me

We will ALWAYS be best friends, I am not going anywhere-As she was breaking up with me. As I left the locksmith was arriving to change the locks. She slandered me all over the place and still does today, three years later.

When I first met her she told me how abusive all her exes were. As our relationship progressed some of her persecutors were being rescripted at "friends". One she had a RO on, she was calling for circuit breaker advice. I thought when I met her she had moved back from Wisconsin out of an abusive, stalkerish relationship. Later, I found out her ex was in the process of moving from Wisconsin to live with her but I came into the picture and so she cut this woman off.

I think they use what works for them, what they know worked in the past. It's very manipulative. It's hard because these are adults yet emotionally damaged. I try to liken it to something an immature teen would do, that's pretty much the only way I can wrap my brain around it.

[JNChell]

Pretty Woman, our experiences are very different, but something clicked to me after reading your post. These folks are some of the best pre-planners around. If they knew how to redirect their energy for something good, they’d make great event planners. Well, if the event benefited them.

Your’s recycled her friends. Mine did too. Her family as well. Funny thing is, I supported her when they supposedly did her wrong. Eventually I started to call her out. You know the response.

[Pretty Woman]

JNChell,
   If you want to read up on recycling read some of my earliest posts. My ex tends to recycle her exes, some 5-6yrs later. I was left for an ex, and she left that ex to return to me. In fact, this ex broke up with her partner of six years... .to get back together with our now mutual ex only to be left a week later... .for me.

I could sit here and say it's me, that the script has changed and she's found true love, but the logical side of me (esp if you read my older posts), her record speaks for itself.

You pointed out something important: When  you begin to call them  out they don't like it... .not one bit. I actually told my ex she was BPD... .she didn't deny it (told me she was bi-polar when we met). Once you lift the mask it scares the heck out of them, if they know they can't trick you, they move on to more gullible targets.

[JNChell]

Pretty Woman, I’ve told mine that I suspected BPD/NPD. I did it all wrong. I even knew that it was wrong to do it. I sent her literature and everything. I went the whole nine yards in the wrong direction. I eventually became so angry and desperate to be understood. For some reason I believed that she’d hear me and that I would be able to help her. Maybe that’s the narcissism in me that needs to be addressed and overcome. I just wanted my little family. It is what it is now. I’ll definitely read through your earlier posts. Thanks for pointing me in that direction. Anyway, my pointing out my suspicions of her traits/disorder ended up being turned around on me. I remember the day. I was sitting on the floor playing with our Son and she pulled “Walking on Eggshells” out of her bag and began to recite exerts from the book to me. She was very snarky in describing “how you are to me and how you make me feel”. I cried and told her that I was sorry for making her feel that way and that we should bring it up in therapy. That I was more than willing to address it and fix it if that was the case. After that, she’d purposely leave the book laying around so I could see what she’d been highlighting in it. She only made it through a few chapters before she abandoned it. I guess she felt that she’d made her point and got bored with the endeavor.

[Gunit1]

She said she had dream that she was working in a garden and had a baby boy in a basket next to her. She knew gardening is an interest of mine. Turns out she has no interest in it. She became pregnant with our Son shortly after.

MaxPax2011, mine used to stare at me while I was driving too. It was very flattering then, but looking back it was creepy. I wonder what she was really thinking.

Mine also did this! Another time at the club or other places. I'd ask what she was thinking but didn't really get much. The last time she did it tho when she started cheating there was something different about the stare. Looked like gone from idealise to I'm done with u

[blooming]

I'll always be there for you, till the day I die

You can tell me everything, I'll never tire of you, you can't irritate me

It's so different with you, I think we'll together for a very long time

[SlyQQ]

I'll always be there for you, till the day I die

You can tell me everything, I'll never tire of you, you can't irritate me

It's so different with you, I think we'll together for a very long time

a week is a long time in BPD

[Husband321]

Did any of you ever call them out on their false promises? What was their reaction?

As an example on a Monday my wife would say "I can't wait o take the kids to Disney this summer.  I will be th best wife ever.  Never again will I disappear"

Then on a Friday i would come home after work and she moved out and vanished.

I would talk to her and show her the texts she sent 4 days earlier.  And she would just say "I never lied to you. I did want those Things when I said them".

[Maxpax2011]

Did any of you ever call them out on their false promises? What was their reaction?

As an example on a Monday my wife would say "I can't wait o take the kids to Disney this summer.  I will be th best wife ever.  Never again will I disappear"

Then on a Friday i would come home after work and she moved out and vanished.

I would talk to her and show her the texts she sent 4 days earlier.  And she would just say "I never lied to you. I did want those Things when I said them".

I did a few times, but they would act like it never happened or they never said it, from what I researched about BPD behavior they tend to have a delusional thought process, or block things out, like they lie so much they can't keep up with all the lies, and it gets confusing for them so they just go into instant denial mode. For example: There were so many things my ex did what contradicted that she told me during the relationship. She told me one of her exes was stalking her then later on was found to be dating him when we broke up the first time. I called her on it and she denied ever saying anything negative about him. Also when we were dating she swore up and down that she preferred mature nice guys who had class and were perfect gentleman, she told me many times that heavy drinkers were a turn off for her. And sure enough after our break up she ended up with a guy who was a heavy drinker, immature, obnoxious, and very low class. Another false statement was that she does not allow any guy around her daughter until they knew each other for quite a while, this guy was staying overnight at the house after less than a month of dating, he lives there now after two months of dating. Their actions contradict everything they say. Everything she said about what she liked disliked or wanted in her life while we were dating, completely contradicted how she lives her life now. When we first met she presented herself as a moralistic woman with class and a proper demeanor, told me that she didn't have many sexual partners, 6 I think she said, and that she doesn't sleep with just any guy. Since our break up, she became an alcoholic, flaunts derogatory and sexual behavior on her Facebook, including "Wanting her new boyfriend to tea bag her", excessive profanity in her posts on social media, very aggressive and hostile behavior. After we broke up she started seeing one guy after the other and still wanted to get with me for sex, so 6 men is probably not an accurate number haha. I doubt she was ever honest about her past sexual history or her past relationships. One more thing to add, she told me all her exes cheated on her, and that they abused her, but come to find out recently that she abused them and cheated on them. One guy she cheated on and left for her daughters father, so again their actions contradict their statements, and if you call them on it they will just deny it was ever said. My exes exact words when I called her out on her behavior was: "I never said that, your crazy".

[Husband321]

All you said was so much the same.

Ex husband was some monster.  Then she slept with him.

She told her new guy I was some psycho, then texted me I am the love of her life and misses me. .

She wants to "work on herself" and be alone, she met a guy online the next day.

So many outright and hurtful lies it is hard to have any sympathy.

Mine also said she had a low number of past partners.  Lol.

[Maxpax2011]

All you said was so much the same.

Ex husband was some monster.  Then she slept with him.

She told her new guy I was some psycho, then texted me I am the love of her life and misses me. .

She wants to "work on herself" and be alone, she met a guy online the next day.

So many outright and hurtful lies it is hard to have any sympathy.

Mine also said she had a low number of past partners.  Lol.

Oh I hear you, she told the new guy that I was stalking her, that I was obsessed with her blah blah blah, two weeks before they announced their relationship on Facebook she was still calling me telling me she loved me and missed me. Right before they got together she told me she wanted to explore her options. I think one way or another they are all the same, just different variations of the BPD. One thing I will mention though is that even though she acts like she is so happy in public with this guy, she still tries to make me jealous or push my buttons through subtle or direct social media posts, so it's obvious she hasn't moved on, even when they split you black and have hate towards there is still feelings attached to that emotion, I think that is why you hear so many stories about them coming back into your life, whether it is an attempt at being friends, sex or something more. Just a question of when they come back, I have an ex that I broke up with 3 years ago who still posts stuff on social media about me. So for some reason we are never gone from their mind ha.