Just when i thought i had seen all sides

[Calmcollected]

It sounds like we’re dating the same person. “So drop it”.
Reading this forum and hearing all the same lines. It’s crazy alike they are. I was called a liar today and to stop messaging him. He doesn’t talk to liars. I won’t get into what happened, because it is so dramatic and crazy, but I think this actually is the end. I can go either way now and am at peace with it.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[lostandconfused6]

i got broken up with this morning he called me talking about how his teacher is out to get him... .i said repeatedly i was late for a meeting at my sons school, but i still stayed on the phone and listened to him i got to my sons school and looked in my passenger seat when i moved my purse and noticed my BPDbfs folder with all his tests were gone i was on the phone with him still and i was trying to hold back tears and i lost it i started sobbing and told him i hate being late and this isn't ok he said it's just work you'll be fine i said no it's not it's my son's school i told you that (i didn't tell him about the tests because i knew it would make it worse)... .and then his go to " i have a test thank you for ruining my day again and making me fail i'm going to go shoot myself" then hung up on me and texted me he's done with me and all the other go tos about me being a horrible person and i'm the reason he's doing bad in school how dare i hold him to a higher standard than i do my son's father (which is BS) he is sick of trying with me and he needed a reason to get rid of me i gave him plenty of them today  and i'm stupid he lets me think i'm smart and it's for a good reason i don't know anything and i don't know what's best smart people don't have to tell people what's best they make them do it and let them think they thought of it on their own i am the stupidest person he knows and if he stays with me his life will continue to get worse... .there was a lot more but that's the basis ofi t

i didn't respond idk how much more of this i can handle once again i am setting in my office at work crying... .the last text was about 2 hours ago... .

[Calmcollected]

I’m so sorry. It is the same person. The other day when he said he didn’t want to speak to me ever again, I stopped crying and then thought about what the emotions were behind it. In your case he’s stressed about school. Instead of just saying you were late for a meeting, I think you should have said I’m late for a meeting, it’s stressful when you feel like someone is out to get you. I’ll call you later when I’m out of the meeting. When i am able to get it together enough to respond like that, the response is better. I watched the video on validating their feelings, not the words, and it makes sense.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

[lostandconfused6]

I'm just so shaken up this has happened so many times in the last couple of weeks i just fear that this really could be the end or that he means what he said... .the part about me being stupid and how smart people basically manipulate instead of giving advice really bothers me... .

As much as i don't know how much more i can handle i don't want this to end but i don't know what to say that would make any kind of difference

he's so quick to recognize BPD being an issue when it comes to school or other things but when this stuff happens BPD isn't a problem and it's all me... .

[Radcliff]

I'm sorry things have been so rough on you lately.  I have been in the exact place you were with the phone call, having talked to my pwBPD way longer than I could afford to from work, with a big meeting coming up, and pressure from all sides and I just lost it.  That's a terrible place to be.  We are vulnerable, then are punished for being vulnerable and having needs, which makes us feel more vulnerable!

One option is to not pick up the phone if a hard commitment is close enough our pwBPD might run up against it.  Sometimes you can buy some time with a text.  Setting boundaries around phone communication while at work is worth the investment.  Hmmm... .I think this might have come up before   I know it's not easy, and when it goes bad, it feels awful.

I'm just so shaken up this has happened so many times in the last couple of weeks i just fear that this really could be the end or that he means what he said... .

Sometimes each breakup threat seems even more convincing than the last.  No matter if we've heard it many times before, we're afraid that this one is the real deal.  pwBPD experience very real feelings in the moment.  Because their feelings are real, they can be very convincing.  In the moment, he probably does mean it.  Then later, he doesn't.  Your feelings don't switch that fast.  His do.

In reality, the "non" is much more likely to do a final breakup.  This knowledge can be reassuring when he is making threats, but the flip side is that it's a heavy burden for the "non" to carry to have to make that decision.

Notice that he has made this threat at about the same time you've told us that you are having doubts about continuing in the relationship.  His threat makes you worry about losing the relationship, which makes you draw close.  Stimulus -- He feels you pulling away.  Response -- he threatens to leave.  Reward -- You draw closer to him out of fear of losing the relationship.  What opportunities might there be to reframe your perceptions and change your behavior to reward his breakup threats less?

the part about me being stupid and how smart people basically manipulate instead of giving advice really bothers me... .

Tell us more about why... .

As much as i don't know how much more i can handle i don't want this to end but i don't know what to say that would make any kind of difference

See above about breakup threats.  You are smart.  If there were something you could say to make this all better, you would have figured it out by now.  Boundaries can help here.  In other parts of our lives words are more effective, in this part, less so sometimes.

he's so quick to recognize BPD being an issue when it comes to school or other things but when this stuff happens BPD isn't a problem and it's all me... .

He's throwing you off balance a lot.  It's absolutely miserable for you.  You said you were keeping notes on him.  Include yourself in the notes.  Journal when he throws you off balance.  Look upstream for an opportunity to develop a boundary that would protect you.  Can you think of any opportunities?

WW

[lostandconfused6]

I have started leaving my phone in my office a lot more often... .or informing him that i have a meeting or a report to do (sometimes he disregards it but for the most part it works)

i just feel he has the mentality of that when he wants to talk i better pick up the phone and that's all that matters... .it's frustrating because i'll text him sometimes, like last night, and he replied "babe i'm in the gym you're going to drain my battery its already down 2%" i had sent 1 text... .5 min later i get a text saying let me know when you make it home, i responded 45 min later... .  3 hours later he was still in the gym... .this raises a lot of questions in me and brings up a lot of bad feelings because of things in the past that he has done (involving that other girl) was i really draining his battery or was he with her? i try to put it out of my mind but when the same behaviors come out i worry... .

i have kept talking to him to a minimum the last few days he will call and talk for 30 45 min and i just listen... .

I have done better with ending convos and not responding when he makes threats i won't contact him for a couple hours and i get a response saying i'm sorry i love you... .that is a boundary i have to stick to more he can't manipulate, threaten, and intimidate me to get what he wants

the part about smart people and manipulation bothers me because it makes me feel like when he is being manipulative he is associating that with intelligence and being smart is the #1 thing he cares about... .manipulation to me is a sign of weakness

[Radcliff]

Great, good work on boundaries!
It sounds like you're making progress on boundaries with texts and phone calls, so you don't get your day destroyed by neediness.  Yes, his expectations are definitely lopsided, thus the boundaries   Boundaries take constant tending.  If you get busy, distracted, or are feeling down, you may stumble.  It goes with the territory, just get back at it, and you'll improve things again.

I'm sorry to hear about your concern about him saying he was at the gym for so long.  Those are pretty distressing feelings to have.  What's your strategy for handling them?

the part about smart people and manipulation bothers me because it makes me feel like when he is being manipulative he is associating that with intelligence and being smart is the #1 thing he cares about... .manipulation to me is a sign of weakness

OK, I see.  You two are fundamentally misaligned on values in a way that's painful to you.  It feels like his drive to be smart is a drive to be manipulative, and to expect you to be manipulative in ways that make him feel better (you owning his stuff without him feeling discomfort from that).  That's kind of a two-fer.  That seems like it would feel pretty bad, indeed.  In calm times, are you able to talk to him about values?

WW

[lostandconfused6]

Thank you I hope things improve unfortunately this morning squished the optimistic feelings for now... .i'll get to those in a minute

I don't even know where to begin with a strategy for handling them i usually just sit there and hope they go away soon.

In calm times i can def talk to him but i never know when he is telling me the truth or not... .he swears when he is calm that's the the truth and tells me not to listen to him when he's mad or raging because he is just saying things to intentionally hurt me and idk what to believe

this morning him and i were talking and i had told him i was stressed out about work, my eye being injured, and a party i am throwing tomorrow and it's giving me anxiety he offered to help, unfortunately there wasn't anything he could really help with, well fast forward 30 min later i texted and mentioned my anxiety his immediate reaction 30 sec later was that i don't trust him he isn't doing anything wrong and he isn't going to see me tonight (i had left my phone on my desk and didnt see the texts until 20 min later) i assured him it wasn't him it was the things we spoke about this morning and he said because i didnt answer right away i'm lying and he's going to kill all my friends because i'm having him watched... .i said i'm sorry i don't understand where this is coming from he calls me screams at me tells me all my friends are wh*res and that they drive by his house and follow him and that's where all this is coming from because they see things and then run back and tell me stuff and make it look like something it isn't (the few times my friends have randomly by chance seen him he has been doing something wrong involving that other girl)   he hung up on me and told me his mom heard him yell at me and she won't let him come to my house tonight and she asked if i thought he was cheating again then laughed... .i left it alone a hour later i get a text from him saying that i shouldn't leave my old phones around for people to copy and he will have his vengeance on me for having him followed and watched and he is going to destroy me and my friends for doing this to him because all he does is workout and study... .i finally replied and said i told you that it had nothing to do with you you took it too far over something that was never mentioned and your assumtions then he goes on and on about how he offered help i said yes and i told you i appreciate there just isn't anything i can physically have you do  and i'm sorry for that what i need is your help just being there for me please. he said fine and we will talk about this interaction later he's at the gym

how in the world do i communicate to him that him saying the stuff about my friends following him has just opened up a whole new world of thoughts and ideas that didn't need to be opened. Also, that him bringing that out of left field makes him look really guilty?

[Calmcollected]

I have lived this. It’s so crazy to me how much they are alike. I caught mine talking to 3 other women. I had a really weird feeling one night. Before that I had trusted him implicitly. His son had been in a situation where we feared for his safety when he was out. He always had his phone on, or panicked when he didn’t know where it was. At that time, I was allowed to answer his phone, he never hid it. He had gone outside to talk with friends in the back yard and left his phone in the house. I was going to bring it out to him, but it was turned off. So I turned it on and there popped up messages from the others. One said she loved him, he loved her too. One was calling him a poor baby and being sexually suggestive, another was doing the same. So I read them. I have never in my life done anything like that before. I was extremely angry. I started grabbing my personal things and loading them in my truck. His friends left and this time I was the one raging. Somehow he talked me down, said they were friends, he wanted only me etc. I forgave him and gave him another chance. I spoke to all of the others, and he wouldn’t meet them, just talked to them. After that everything changed. He would rage like yours after a conversation that had absolutely nothing to do with the situation and come out with these wild thing that veered off into the wild. I don’t have any advice to give, just that the words they use are almost identical.

[Radcliff]

he said because i didnt answer right away i'm lying and he's going to kill all my friends because i'm having him watched... .i said i'm sorry i don't understand where this is coming from he calls me screams at me tells me all my friends are wh*res and that they drive by his house and follow him and that's where all this is coming from

That part I highlighted?  That's where you stop.  He is dysregulated and saying wildly inappropriate and hurtful things.  Tell him that you won't listen to threats and you need some time to calm down and feel better.  Give him a time when you will check back in with him (a time hours away, when you're done with work, and have had time to rest, be with your son, etc., but not so close to bedtime that you'll have trouble sleeping if he upsets you -- the time delay should not be punitive, so just think through how much time off you need to be really responsive to your own needs).

You need to draw a bright line about threats of violence.  Had you shut things down at that point, you would not have picked up the phone to hear him screaming at you.  Even if you don't think he would follow through on those threats, that kind of language is absolutely incompatible with a relationship, and not something you can afford to subject yourself to.  You may be afraid that he will leave you if you set hard limits like this, but that is unlikely.  Our fear that we will be abandoned if we enforce healthy limits causes our situation to deteriorate rather than improve.

What do you think?  Can you articulate where you might set a new boundary to protect yourself?  What would you do if something similar happened in the future?  This may be scary and uncomfortable, but it can get you to a better place, and save you a whole lot of pain that you should not have to bear.

WW 

[lostandconfused6]

You're right i should have stopped it then and not answered but i fear what will happen if i don't answer might be much worse than if i do.

You are right though i need to draw a line. I am getting to my breaking point and i'm not sure what will happen if i actually reach it. i am not 100% sure how to articulate it but i have made the choice to not respond to him at all if i he says something i'm not ok with or if he starts being mean or disrespectful. It seems to be working for now. I understand he has BPD and i do my best to keep that in mind but he can't keep getting away with threatening me and manipulating me and intimidating me to get what he wants. he says it's the only thing that works and gets me to shut up he said saturday night while we were in bed about to go to sleep that he is going to contact my ex that tried to murder me 4 years ago so he can find out the real story on what happened because he doesn't believe me and then he is going to use it against me along with all the other lies he knows i have told him that he hasn't clued me in on... .i cried myself to sleep that night, because what my ex did to me was the most traumatic thing i have ever gone through i had to have my whole face reconstructed and he knows what kind of h*ll i went through from it. This was said because we had a different opinion about the reason some people do the things they do and what it makes them look like (girls discussing their sexual preferences and stories with guys they are "just friends" with) He is becoming more and more viscous with the things he is saying to me and it is making things hard on me and making me very depressed.

 I just keep playing over and over in my head what he has done to me in the past (some being recent past) and how many times he has promised things or given me his word and broke it or just flat out lied, and how he always has a "reason" for what he did. May 5th is a very bad day for me, that day last year it was the first day i found out for sure that "other girl" was going to his house... .i know this isn't a good thing to do but it's really hard... .and every time he lashes out at me and says even more hurtful things than the last time i just think about all the bad over and over and over

this week has been ok... .there have been a couple times he has just flat out annoyed me and said things that p*ss me off... .like he will be having a full on convo with me that he starts then say "trying to study keep the texting to a minimum" or "everytime you text me my app crashes thanks"  but i have just ignored him completely and gone on about my life... .

i'm trying to hold on but he isn't giving me much to hold on to. it sucks and its bringing me a lot of anxiety but idk what to do... .he worries so much about doing for other people... .he claims just his parents but i have suspicions someone else might be included in that... .and he does so little for me... .

is it possible that there has been much damage done in the past?

[Calmcollected]

I strongly feel you need to get in counselling for yourself. I don’t think any of us knew your previous trauma. You need a support system in place. Please take my advice on this.

[lostandconfused6]

I already go... .I deal very well with what happened to me... .but him throwing it in my face isn’t ok... .me going to counseling for that specifically isn’t going to help.

[Radcliff]

I am so sorry to hear about your past trauma, but am glad you're working through it with a therapist.  I'm so sorry to hear that he used your vulnerability against you.

Enforcing boundaries is scary.  Often we only do it when we realize that without the boundaries, we're being consumed.  Trying to "be there" for them without boundaries is no longer possible.  We begin to learn how to do boundaries as effectively and compassionately as possible.  It's messy business, but we work hard at what we can control.  Depending on what our pwBPD does, things may get better or they may get worse.  You may have an "extinction burst," heavy resistance at first that dies down, or you may find that the pwBPD simply can't accept your boundaries.  You are feeling the damage of living without boundaries.  It's not sustainable.

is it possible that there has been much damage done in the past?

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand what you're saying here.

WW

[lostandconfused6]

Things seem to be getting better for the moment (knock on wood) with what i have been doing. I have actually just started learning about extinction bursts, i can't believe i didn't know about them until recently... .  this is a little off subject but He has even said something to the effect of how he appreciates my honesty and how i don't sugar coat things or just agree with him like everyone else does so they don't have to deal with him, it means a lot to him that i am willing to subject myself to his unfavorable responses because i care more about the outcome of what he does than my own emotions and how he will react even if it means him being a jerk to me for a little while.

What i meant by the damage in the past is the things he had lied about involving that other girl and the secret "friendship" he had with her because he knew his intentions and didn't see why i cared so much about him being friends with her... .he supposedly gets it now but when he was doing it he didn't

[Radcliff]

OK.  Make as much progress as you can while things are calm, trying new tools, etc.  The next big test will be when things start to go south, if you're able to observe it happening, pause and us a tool like boundary enforcement to protect yourself.  Look at it as a flavor of honesty.  Keep us posted!

WW