Why go through the ordeal of overhauling something that is ingrained, fixed since childhood

[Cromwell]

its time again for introspection and trying to find some reason why this didnt worked out based on your personality, but why go through the ordeal of overhauling something that is ingrained, fixed since childhood - mining with a toothpick. At the same time, running the risk of being open to suggestions or amplifying ideas and taking them on board, when the reality is less psychiatrised if you were not in the midst of being emotionally vulnerable to these suggestions.

There are plenty decent women out there who will value you for the things you tried to make your ex happy, I dont value generalised relationship advice in the context that I met someone who is emotional volatile based on extreme personality disorder traits. You have had succesful r/s in the past, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with you shawnlam, this digging for excuses of why the r/s didnt work.

Yes this r/s brought out revelations about myself that made me more self aware, but so did all the others ive had. In short, there was nothing exceptionally profound or enlightening in all of this, except a dose of emotional hurt and general stress of living with someone whos behaviour is so erratic, bizarre and you dont know whats going to happen from one minute to the next.

Was it a "failed relationship" that depends on what the goals were to start with or intentions throughout. But not all bad decisions necessarily have bad outcomes, like playing a slot machine, you might win the top payout on your very first try. Just as this relationship, my goal was to have happy times and experiences with someone I was infactuated with and interested me, for her company. She did satisfy all that, so it was a success. What were your goals when you attached to her?

I dont see anything fundamentally wrong with one self for the reasonable goals that I set, achieved. It failed because of her behaviour falling below a level of standards expected. Yours failed (from what ive read) because she strayed elsewhere and didnt commit to a level you expected. I cant see anything unreasonable about that.

I havent yet found a person that thinks being cheated on finds that instead of thinking of the other as a betrayer, converts that into thinking that there must have been something wrong with themselves that caused it.

Did I enable her behaviour too much, get swept away in the idolisation and adoration, more than ever before? yes, and I got a slap up the side of the head for it for doing a half-ass job and encountering a woman who invited/demanded that I deeply intermesh, it was "too good to be true love" on a plate.

there are lessons to be learned from that - specific unique encounter with BPD - it caused a lot of emotional hurt. which is why in our moment of emotional tenderness be convinced by too easily swayed be "the nicola method" or whoever else has a book to sell or telephone counselling to find the "root" of my issues.

I went through a grieving stage in all relationships that lasted from a few days up to a month. One I fell in love with and ended up on good terms, I still think of now and again. They were all overall good, balanced relationships, as you describe yours were.

So why all of a sudden fixate on this one, we got everything handed on a plate, at first at least. Regardless of how extreme and suspicious it can look in hindsight. As Skip mentions the bad things I did in the r/s, I agree, and the very fact she talks to me today as if nothing ever happened is a nice confirmation to me that she is ill, no other woman I have known would be still behaving the way my ex is doing.

Ask yourself the same question if you have met anyone that behaved like this before either.

if there is a big history of catastrophic failures and unhealthy attractions to disordered people, then yes, start thinking about some professional insight to explain why. Otherwise, try to avoid this self-blame game as much as possible, you should know yourself if you behaved guiltily or you just did the best you could out of strong feelings that developed for her.

most woman ive met look for a man who will be a "protector" and "provider". in 2018 that can be twisted into old fashioned "rescuer" or "people pleaser" personality but I disagree, my ex enjoyed that I went to work and supported her, helped her with her issues, and I felt happy doing so. She fulfilled my needs in return, that wasnt the issue, the mind games, bizareness and infedility were. A lot of that rooted in alcohol and drug binges.

Just find someone who accepts you for who you are and the good qualities you have proven so far and avoid too much generic advice, we all went through unique r/s dynamics. What works towards our goals is learning from advice, applying it and then judging the outcome.

I have been, subtly put down for "experimenting" or tailor making my own way to my goals - going against the grain - or thinking too much for myself. Yet, why is it that as each day passes I feel cumulatively better? because if something doesnt work, I refine the underlying component that I believe is causing the problem.

If you wanted to get from California to Washington DC, there will be as many ways to get there ultimately as opinions on the best way. Changing personality to do better in the next relationship is like building a car again from the start when you could just maybe change a fuse that had became blown.

[Skip]

I havent yet found a person that thinks being cheated on finds that instead of thinking of the other as a betrayer, converts that into thinking that there must have been something wrong with themselves that caused it.

It's an interesting statement.

From what you have said here, you cheated on your girlfriend with her friends. You messed with her to make her uncomfortable and enjoyed it. You ghosted her. You reconnected with her and have explored ways to make her feel bad - payback.

Is any of this "unhealthy", self-sabotaging worth thinking about and possibly changing in the future?

[Husband321]

It's an interesting statement.

From what you have said here, you cheated on your girlfriend with her friends. You messed with her to make her uncomfortable and enjoyed it. You ghosted her. You reconnected with her and have explored ways to make her feel bad - payback.

Is any of this "unhealthy", self-sabotaging, or worth thinking about and possibly changing in the future?

After my relationship I asked my therapist... "Why did I keep going back to her? Is there something wrong with me?"

What she told me was "No, you are normal... You cared. You wanted to figure it out. You loved her... She was a trixter. A liar. And she changed her mind daily". And she said this with conviction.

I can't comment on what Cromwell did in his relationship, but I do know my BPD ex brought out the worst in me...   And I never knew what "would work" with her... Following... Chasing. Ghosting... Being normal. Making her jealous...   Those actions were not "me", although I was doing them.

I am in a new relationship now, and could never imagine doing any of those things... Which leads me to believe I did not "need to be fixed", I just needed to not be with someone suffering from BPD.

[Struggler123]

The truth is as hard as it is to accept it, at one point we were obsessed with the idealization phase. It sparked up memories inside of us that we never knew were there. As for qualities such as people pleaser etc, these terms do exist but in no way are they categorized as PERSONALITY DISORDERS. BPD is a real personality disorder, I am pursuing to be in the medical field and I can understand how my personality to always do good and save everyone from harm, can collide with that but, I don’t see that as a quality to be ashamed about. If there is something I’m ashamed about, its the fact that I let so much time revolve around someone that never needed my help. At the end words are just words. If you would have asked me about my ex 2 months ago, I would’ve been like “we can still make it work somehow, I’ll figure it out.” But, now I’ve accepted the fact that my purpose in my life is to MAKE MYSELF BETTER, only then I can make others happy. If I had realized this earlier, I wouldn’t have had such a fallout. We all make mistakes, and thats not what this forum is for. Sometimes when we want to make something work so bad, we go to the extends that we realize would have been considered ten times before making such a decision. I was very good to my ex, even now when she tried to contact me I was very empathetic, but at the end of the day. I like to think of it like this, everything happens for a reason. I’ve become mature, and I’ve realized that I need to take my own decisions. I let go of a lot of my boundaries and, I was a very strong independent person but, yet insecure and I’ve learned to accept my faults. A wise person once said on this forum, I love you begins with I. It’s only when we work on ourselves can we truly, give that to someone else. Cromwell, let go of your past and regrets, it’s your time, make it count. It gets easier, I promise.

P.S.
I still get a little weak every now and then, but I’ve learned to accept that it wasn’t my fault. She’s a good person, but just not the right one for me. You will find the right one for you, and these memories will not haunt you anymore.

[Skip]

Those actions were not "me", although I was doing them.

Also interesting. 

[Husband321]

Also interesting. 

Yes... .This is what I meant...

Let's say I have a disagreement with a non BPD woman... We might be upset, but later we have no issue talking it out, it blows over, we make a decision together etc.

Now with my BPDex, over a disagreement she would change her mail address, change her insurance, and simply disappear with no warning when I am at work.

So yes, with the BPD ex it was crazy making behavior on her part. At  times like that I would have a lot of emotions, and I was thinking "We got this far, and it's over because of this little disagreement?"

I would have many emotions. Sad, curious, angry, jealous, upset, etc. And when someone knows just how to get to you, you also resort to behavior more at their level. And do not know what would "work"... DO you ghost them? make them jealous? Tell them how you feel, which seemingly never works, etc.

Unless we just say I needed to work on myself BECAUSE I was  with her in the first place?  That can be true, but I was never with a trixter of that level before.  Was it my fault for trusting and being naive? Should I have learned an entirely new way to communicate because she has a problem?

So yes... Thats what I mean. They can bring out the worst in you. And lead you to act in ways that are not really "you".

Is the "working on myself" more or less how to avoid a BPD? Or to learn how to accept a BPD and communicate with them?

[Wicker Man]

I havent yet found a person that thinks being cheated on finds that instead of thinking of the other as a betrayer, converts that into thinking that there must have been something wrong with themselves that caused it.

I cannot completely agree with @Cromwell's statement above.  Having spent 6 months in therapy both individual and couple's counseling.

Maybe this is a digression, but perhaps interesting none the less.  My affair with my undiagnosed BPD lover, obviously,  caused a rift in my marriage.  As part of reconciliation it will become necessary to consider my affair a 'tentpole' event in the landscape of our marriage -what was the context?  It did not happen in a vacuum, but was symptomatic of a failing relationship. 

It will be heavy lifting, but whereas I definitely did something horrible, it becomes necessary for both my wife and I to look at how our actions leading up to the affair laid fertile ground for my transgression.

This takes a lot of time, care and compassion.  It must not be looking for justification, but instead seeking how to rebuild and make the marriage relationship stronger and better in version 2.0

It is vital for my wife to look at what part of our failing relationship was due to her actions.   Without her willingness and ability to introspect and grow we would be doomed to future failure.

This is going to be different from a person suffering from BPD cheating -I know what I did was hurtful and I am willing to accept responsibility for my actions.  I accepted responsibility for them as the affair was going on.  I knew it was selfish and dangerous.

When I gently confronted my undiagnosed BPD lover with some of her transgressions I was met with either rage or lies -sometimes both... .  There was no room for introspection and growth on her part on a level which would have let us grow and learn from her extracurricular activities. 


Wicker Man

[Cromwell]

Hi Wicker Man

I was speaking more from a perspective of being with someone with BPD who cheats on you, and not cheating per se.

What made a mockery of me was that she did it because she couldnt handle how good I was for her. Thats my reason given at the time.

I didnt know she had a PD then, I learned later, so you can imagine on the surface just how difficult to comprehend that was, paradoxical behaviour, the kinder and more loving I was, and just when the r/s felt on both sides healthy, reciprocated and happy, she did that out of nowhere.

I dont have anything to comment about your circumstances except you dont have BPD and have rationalised reasons for breaking your marriage vows. My ex did this due to her impulsivity and feeling of being engulfed as well as lack of empathy as to how deeply it would effect me, I suppose in the big picture she didnt want me to find out so she didnt think it would matter - partially true. It was also not long into the r/s at the peak of the idolisation honeymoon period, and from what ive read here, thats when the devaluation kicks in. So in time, ive made sense of it. Did it make me feel a fool for being my natural kind self to her up to that point, yes it felt like a mockery and a betrayal, it felt being used. It still does to a far lesser extent, I cant decide if she came back to me so quick out of remoarse or just to keep me hooked in to be used. Stuff like this is what keeps internal conflict going, up until the point I decided that it doesnt matter anymore and has no real bearing on my future, I actually dont want to know the truth and it saves a lot of energy expended trying to figure out, just keeps that pain resurfacing perpetually.

[Wicker Man]

I decided that it doesnt matter anymore and has no real bearing on my future, I actually dont want to know the truth and it saves a lot of energy expended trying to figure out.

I have come to the, possibly misguided, conclusion there is no fixed truth.  As I mentioned a while back I had been obsessively ruminating about what happened when.  It occurred to me everyone involved had received a different story from her.  It is the 'who took the picture' episode to which I am alluding.

In rehashing what her best friend told me of the situation best friend had a completely different story about the guy than I had been given. 

My point being even if it were possible to have a heart to heart conversation with ':)ream Come True' I am not completely sure she would know a concrete truth.  My 'leaf in the wind' summation of her actions.

As an interesting possible proof to this.  The ex had given her two dozen roses (I believe likely he delivered them himself -to our apartment ugh... .). 

When I arrived I said 'I am guessing this are from your ex?'  She said 'There was no card, but likely... .yes'.  She asked if she should throw them away -I said 'No, of course not.  The flowers didn't do anything wrong and besides which they are beautiful... .and a bit funny'.  She asked how they were funny? I said you don't like roses... .  She had told me she hated roses... .

Well it occurred to me the other day... .  She has roses tattooed on her arm. 

My point being... .Yes.  Good for you in trying to stop the rumination spiral.  I am currently working on doing the same. 

It is likely I did not know her nearly as well as I had presumed -and there is a chance she doesn't know herself any better than I did.

Who splits flowers black?  Roses are lovely... .  There truly is an absurdity verging on humor here somewhere.


Wicker Man

[Skip]

So going back to the title of the OP:

Why go through the ordeal of overhauling something that is ingrained, fixed since childhood?

Isn't this the very thing we lament about people with BPD?  Isn't this "PD type" thinking?

[Husband321]

So going back to the title of the OP:

Why go through the ordeal of overhauling something that is ingrained, fixed since childhood?

Isn't this the very thing we lament about people with BPD?  Isn't this "PD type" thinking?

I guess the way I see it atleast... .

Many of us have careers.  Jobs.  School. Children. Etc.  all
Of the above requires time. And it is a balancing act at times.

So yes.  We fell in love with a disordered individual with BPD.  Someone who most likely honed their skills for years, or since childhood, in the art of manipulation, mirroring, coming, going, lying, etc. who may also be narcissistic, histrionic, sociopathic etc.

So that means nons need to spend precious time either:

A.  Figuring out how to be with a BPD who doesn't want help

B.  Wondering why we fell in love with, often times, a charismatic , sexual and loving woman?

Or we realize none of us are perfect, but realize unlike the BPD, we largely have our lives together.  Atleast in most cases. 

So we can do a tota overhaul to realize as nons we do not have a mental illness but fell for someone who does?

[Cromwell]

So going back to the title of the OP:

Why go through the ordeal of overhauling something that is ingrained, fixed since childhood?

Isn't this the very thing we lament about people with BPD?  Isn't this "PD type" thinking?

Asking someone to change their personality beyond their 20s is no different from asking someone to try and change their DNA.

Ive tried to work on changing my personality - it was - is - a waste of time and held me back from progress and success by simply changing my situation to where aspects of my personality became irrelevant.

One thing that can be changed is knowledge, such as what I have got from this board, knowledge over BPD so I could understand the person I had got so emotionally intertwined with. Sleep habits I can change, made a big difference. Bad habits like drug and alcohol abuse changed, to the extent I realise the decisions I made during the r/s were influenced by them. During the r/s I wasnt even reflecting at all of what was going on, it was daily reflexive actions rather than reflective higher processing.

Skip, I tried to change my personality thinking that it was some way holding me back from success in life and it was/is a waste of time, it is unchangeable. I also tried to make a BPD relationship work on the basis of falling in love with "the one", and that failed and continued to fail until I realised we are both unchangeable. But it was worth trying to find out.

"ghosting her" is another way of saying; I changed the situation and it was a turning point of starting to make good progress. Sleeping with her friends also changed the r/s just like her taking over my friends did, I simply ended up changing to make new friends who I expect more loyalty from, so far thats working out well, if it doesnt, something to change again and changeable, finding people who suit my personality.

Having therapy give me information was fine to an extent but she couldnt change a personality, I was already 20 back then and it took 6 sessions to realise this was going nowhere productive.

Life gets better changing the situation to one that fits better than what is currently failing. I keep altering things that dont make me happy about my ex (that are changeable), even this contact I have now I deeply investigate so as to avoid jumping from frying pan into the fire. In many ways our personalities were a match, yet it took time and experience to figure out that - in the big picture - we were incompatible, which is one of the best advice ive got on here from once removed. "incompatible personalities" is not changeable, and I know i wasted about 2 years trying everything else when this was the root of the problem.

What others think, lament, say or do about my decisiveness not to change my personality along with it the PD diagnosed primordially, is irrelevant to me, I have one life to live and will live it my way.

If you believe you are a co-dependent, or people-pleaser personality, simply change your situation and find someone compatible, there is someone out there for everyone who will match, dont let it happen next time but make it happen. Youve already got the benefit of experience to know how to spot people who have already proven incompatible/incorrigible.

[Skip]

If you believe you are a co-dependent, or people-pleaser personality, simply change your situation and find someone compatible, there is someone out there for everyone who will match... .

Well, Crom, I think a lot of us learn to pick better partners as we go along in life. We can do that AND try to grow as a more emotionally mature person, reach to resolve our issues.

"ghosting her" is another way of saying; I changed the situation and it was a turning point of starting to make good progress. Sleeping with her friends also changed the r/s

I highlighted "simply change your situation", because I have a difficulty reconciling that statement with the statement of the sleeping with her friends, ghosting, and the other physiological abuses over a long period of time that you seem to take satisfaction in. You haven't "simply changed your situation", at all.

Where does "character" fit into all of this?

Is it ok to sleeping with her friends, ghosting, and the other physiological abuses if it makes us feel better? What do you think? 

If confronted with a difficult relationship in the future, will you do this stuff again?  Are you OK with that?

Are you OK if someone does it to you?

[JNChell]

Latter society feeds future society as far as our not so distantly passed relatives, but mostly our children. Evolution. Knowing we’re not quite fit to mingle behind closed doors means we’re not quite fit to mingle out in the open. knowing is a big step. In knowing, we become responsible because we know. Once we know, or have a good grasp on who we are or what we know about ourselves, we no longer have any excuses. We simply have decisions to make.

[Mutt]

If you believe you are a co-dependent, or people-pleaser personality, simply change your situation and find someone compatible, there is someone out there for everyone who will match, dont let it happen next time but make it happen.

I was reading something on Quora today from a P. basically about fwb and the P said enjoy it and have fun with the physical part because that’s what she likes about you she doesn’t you as a future partner, if you’re not set in having a r/s with this person because happiness comes from you, you’ll eventually find a r/s partner.

My exgf doesn’t want commitment but she likes having sex with me and I thought about the happiness part and it’s true I supply it, let’s say that your depressed because of circumstances in your FOO isn’t that worth exploring to feel better about yourself and put things in your past into perspective to come to terms with it and find peace.

I read somewhere that codependency is the disease of the sense of self and I think that’s a good term because I felt like I didn’t know who I was what if you want to change and you’re not looking for someone compatible because you want more?

I outgrew my exuBPDw and i didn’t want a r/s with a pwBPD Im not saying that I’m better than a pwBPD but I worked on my r/s skills so that they are healthier than what they were before. It was a lot of work I’d want to find someone that has r/s skills that match better. Why settle for limitations with yourself?

[blooming]

I havent yet found a person that thinks being cheated on finds that instead of thinking of the other as a betrayer, converts that into thinking that there must have been something wrong with themselves that caused it.

Well, now you have. Those were and are exactly my thoughts.

[Cromwell]

Well, Crom, I think a lot of us learn to pick better partners as we go along in life. We can do that AND try to grow as a more emotionally mature person, reach to resolve our issues.

I highlighted "simply change your situation", because I have a difficulty reconciling that statement with the statement of the sleeping with her friends, ghosting, and the other physiological abuses over a long period of time that you seem to take satisfaction in. You haven't "simply changed your situation", at all.

Where does "character" fit into all of this?

Is it ok to sleeping with her friends, ghosting, and the other physiological abuses if it makes us feel better? What do you think? 

If confronted with a difficult relationship in the future, will you do this stuff again?  Are you OK with that?

Are you OK if someone does it to you?

I did those things as a way of dealing with the hurt, not trying to hurt her, and it worked. She hated them, not me. The ghosting wasnt a psychological abuse, it was going NC for my own self preservation and to get breathing space.

Although I have thought about what youve said and there have been times I have felt vengeful, I havent went through with it, rooted in anger, and that has been to the support and insight ive had here. I feel very fortunate because I dont have much to feel guilty about this r/s and it would have been far harder to heal if I did things which felt good at the time, but are ultimately wrong. Even if they take the form as a "retaliation" rather than being the one who initiated in the first place. I guess I had to consider this more strongly - no-one likes betrayals but I found it very difficult to turn the other cheek and move on from it. Maybe this r/s has helped me with that.

[Cromwell]

Latter society feeds future society as far as our not so distantly passed relatives, but mostly our children. Evolution. Knowing we’re not quite fit to mingle behind closed doors means we’re not quite fit to mingle out in the open. knowing is a big step. In knowing, we become responsible because we know. Once we know, or have a good grasp on who we are or what we know about ourselves, we no longer have any excuses. We simply have decisions to make.

Yes JNChell,

gaining knowledge is changing something that can be changed and its why ive seeked out to find it. I can forgive myself for being ignorant of her condition and reacting the way I did, but not now anymore, and that is a very important difference.

[Skip]

I guess I had to consider this more strongly - no-one likes betrayals but I found it very difficult to turn the other cheek and move on from it. Maybe this r/s has helped me with that.

We all can learn from these things.

[Zen606]

Hi Husband 321,
I do agree with your therapist -- there is a difference between the behavior of a BPD/triait person and a non within a relationship. "A trickster, liar, and changing her mind daily"  -- this certainly reminds me of my bp trait ex. The interesting thing about this is that I do not believe he intended to lie or put on a mask, this is just his behavior over time. However, his pushing me away then wanting me back -- was very hurtful to me and could have motivated me to seek revenge, and believe me I did fantasize about it. But the best thing for me to do was to state it was over and initiate NC, its been 7 months. I believe that just fantasizing about revenge scared me and showed how much his behavior impacted me and could have made me into something I was not, if I allowed it.

I'm still very much in love with him but could i go back to that scene again, never.

Zen606