Need advice - abuse - potential divorce

[maxsterling]

Hi again.  I used to be a regular contributor to this website, and then things improved somewhat, and I felt I needed to give the BPS board a rest for awhile.  But now things have gotten very bad.

Since the last time I was here, I have gotten married to dBPDw, and we have had two children (twins).  Reality?  Very foolish of me to think that children would not make things more tense. 


We had to go through IVF to get the children because of issues on my wife's end (probably related to both age and smoking).  She somehow blames me for it.  During childbirth, she had complications and had to have a hysterectomy.  Again, somehow she blames me for it.


Raising twins is difficult, and we are both very exhausted all the time.  What doesn't help is that I feel constantly criticized by her regarding parenting and household duties.  I do 90% of the cooking, cleaning, and household tasks, in addition to my full-time job.  I am typically responsible for feeding the children 2 out of 3 meals a day, am almost always the one who comforts them at night.  That's not to say my wife does nothing - she takes care of them by herself while I am at work - that is a big task.  But, at least once a week she blows up my phone while i am at work saying things like "I can't take it anymore"  "you need to come home NOW" and "I can't do everything".  Often I wind up leaving work early to go home.

She still takes antidepressants, but quit her anti-anxiety medication.  She quit seeing her psychaitrist, and has quit seeing her psychologist.  What she has been doing is "medical" marijuana, and a lot of it.  She hasn't gone a day in the past year without using it, and nearly every night uses it to the point of basically "checking out".  My observation is the Marijuana has made her more depressed, more anxious, more paranoid that people are judging her, and more likely to not let go of negative events.  She had all those issues in the first place, but I think they are much worse now.  I should also mention that prior to her starting the medical Marijuana, she was sober for 11 years. 

The babies just turned 16 months.  We are both stressed out.  One child sleeps with us because he refuses to go in his grib, the other will go in her crib.  Needless to say, we havent been intimate in over a year.  Part of it is the stress and exhaustion, but on my end part of it is the way I feel constantly criticized.  The only times I feel she is nice to me are when she is stoned. 


The issue I am facing now is abuse and violence.  She will belittle and berate and call me names in front of the kids.  She will curse at me, call me ass hole, a dick, etc.  A few months ago while I was holding our daughter, she threw a wooden block at me.  Last night she again blew up my phone while I was at work, sent me half a dozen text messages on my drive home, calling me a sexist ass hole and other names.  She was complaining that the kids were jumping on the sofa. I came home early, found the kids on the sofa, and took them off and put them on to the floor and hugged them.  I am not certain what transpired next, but it again involved her cursing and screaming at me, and demanding i leave.  I told her that I was not leaving, and if she wanted to force me to leave she could call the police.  She then became violent with me while I was holding the babies.  Scared, I grabbed the babies and took them into the back room and closed and locked the door.  She becan kicking and screaming outside the door.  The babies were screaming and crying.  I told her that she needed to calm down.  Eventually, I let her in and it appeared the babies were afraid of her.  She then went into the bedroom and shut the door.  I put the babies in their chairs and started giving them dinner.  She came out and started screaming at me again while I was feeding them.  I told her that she needed to calm down or go elsewhere while the babies were eating.  She refused.  Again, scared and not wanting the babies ot be exposed to this, I took them out of their chairs and begain carrying them to another room.  dBPDw then tackled me (holding the babies) and then began punching me.  At one point she threw a container of goldfish crackers across the room, and another time said she wanted to murder me.  All this was in front of the babies.


A little while later, after the immediate threat of violence was over and the babies were in bed, she began to lecture me - again using the same belittling, sarcastic, cursing tone.  I flat out told her that I was scared, and in that moment I did not trust that she would not harm the babies.  That is the truth.  Normally, I trust she will not hurt the babies, but if she is that angry and violent, I don't know what to trust.  The reality in my mind is that she WAS harming the babies and was being violent already. 

Her next comment was that she needs to see a lawyer.  That is where we are at now.  If she wants to seek legal counsel, I will not stop or discourage her.  I can't go back on my observation that she was violent and threatening to the babies (and myself).  The advice I need is:

Where do I go from here?
What would a lawyer likely tell her?
Is this child abuse?


I'm still shaking and not quite sure what I want - but I want to make sure the babies are safe.  Likely dBPDw will calm down some, but I see it very unlikely that she will come to a place where she understands that she was threatening and violent and that violence is unacceptable.  I don't see her giving in here - in her mind she was only violent towards me, and only because of my actions.  She feels justified.


Thanks for reading all this, and thanks in advance for any advice.

[Notwendy]

Hi Max,

I remember you from the boards. I am glad things improved for you for a while. And twins- wow. But they are surely the light of your life.

From reading these boards, a threat of divorce may or may not mean she is going to take action. For some members it has been a threat only- a tactic that works because of the fear and emotional response it invokes. For others, the threats took place long before action, and for some it meant action. I think it would help for you to know if this is a threat or more.

Keep in mind it is she who is saying she wants a lawyer. By now, you are probably used to fulfilling her requests, but if she really wants a divorce, my own opinion is to not do her dirty work for her. Divorces are messy- if you get her the lawyer, do this for her, then you are essentially going along with her decision, doing it for her, when it isn't something you want to do.

Does she mean it- or does she say it when dysregulated and then when she feels better act as if everything is OK? I say this from dealing with my BPD mother who threatened to divorce my father many times during her rages and when they were over, the two of them acted as if nothing happened. What does she say when she is not upset or angry?

The person to act for here is you- and for the sake of your children. If you want a divorce, then act on your best interest ( and theirs). From what I have read here though, this is not an instant process- consulting a lawyer, getting advice first ( this is a great resource). In the case of abuse ,documenting, having an escape plan. In the case of self protection- if she is possibly consulting a lawyer, you can do this too- for you, not for her- to know your legal rights, how to protect them, and what not to do to possibly harm your position.


Many of your wife's behaviors happened before the twins as well. I do recall you locking yourself in your room when she was potentially violent to you. What has changed is that two little lives now depend on you. Your situation reminded me of some of my BPD mother's behaviors . As much as you want to stand up for your children and protect them- they depend on you being able to stand up for yourself and to keep yourself healthy.  I want to remind you to take care of yourself in the ways you think you need to.

[maxsterling]

Many of your wife's behaviors happened before the twins as well. I do recall you locking yourself in your room when she was potentially violent to you. What has changed is that two little lives now depend on you. Your situation reminded me of some of my BPD mother's behaviors . As much as you want to stand up for your children and protect them- they depend on you being able to stand up for yourself and to keep yourself healthy.  I want to remind you to take care of yourself in the ways you think you need to.

Thanks so much for this.  I needed a reminder to take care of myself.  I haven't eaten much since yesterday. 

If she wants to contact a lawyer, I will respond accordingly.  I won't either encourage her or dissuade her from doing what she wants to do.  If it was quick and amicable and not-messy, I would likely consider that avenue myself.  But with the kids this young and me not knowing if she is dysregulated or serious, I think it is best to just wait for her to make a move. 

I just feel like between a rock and a hard place.  On one hand, I don't want our kids to be exposed to violence, verbal abuse, cursing, and name calling.  On the other hand, trying to remove the kids from that usually escalates things.  Last night I didn't want the kids to listen to the verbal abuse while they were tying to eat.  But trying to remove them from it led to physical violence. 

We have a houseguest coming today.  It is a friend of my wife's.  At least for the short term, the houseguest will be a buffer.  But I could see this getting ugly, too.  After all, not just two months ago this friend was painted black. 

[Notwendy]

How to deal with her verbal abuse in front of the babies is hopefully a topic some members on the legal board can share advice about. Allowing it might appear as complacency and as you observed, removing them escalates to more verbal abuse. I don't have personal experience with this as a parent. I recall going for long drives in the car with my father- BPD mother was not with us. We had a favorite restaurant that we'd get excited to go eat at. We've moved a few times since them and I recently saw a commercial for it. It occurred to me that this restaurant was a 2 hour drive from where we lived. I can imagine he was probably driving us away from something, all the while we thought we were getting a special treat. You may want to consider not staying in the house and going somewhere with the twins when she rages, if that is possible. ( but I don't know if there could be consequences to that as well ) I hope that more posters will share their own advice for how they handled this.

[ForeverDad]

I was married to my spouse for 15 years before we separated and divorced.  I had learned about BPD only a few months before, he was only 3 years old.  Our one child had been born a little before our 12th anniversary.  Over the years of our marriage she had been getting increasingly depressed and distressed and so we went to a reproductive doctor.  She got pregnant after an HSG exam.  (A nurse confided that a third of their patients get pregnant after that test but they didn't say anything beforehand so as not to get our hopes up and then nothing happen.)

As I wrote, I didn't know about BPD until after he was a preschooler.  I had hoped that with a child and a new life discovering the world she would be happy watching him discover life's wonders.  Unfortunately, I didn't realize that having a child doesn't necessarily fix a dysfunctional spouse or a dysfunctional marriage.  And if things go south then having a child would make unwinding the relationship vastly more complicated.  I think you've hit that issue, your dilemma is now so much more complicated with young children.

My now-ex instead relived her childhood (and her terrors from back then) though his life.  She had always told me her abusive SF had joined her family when she was three years old.  After our son's birth she was distant from me, intimacy was rare... .it was like she could not love both of us... .so it increasingly became "her and her son against the world"... .now that I was a father she started comparing me to her experience with her SF, unfavorable comparisons, like she now looked at me suspiciously as a "probable" abuser despite have been married over a dozen years.

Unlike your case, my ex did not have extensive mental health issues documented with professionals and so my court and surrounding professionals many years before they stopped defaulting to a preference for mother.  It took 8 years in and out of court but I have had custody and majority time for the past 4 years.

It is what it is.  Your ex's mental state is not improved or healthy enough to be a responsible parent.  Do not feel bad when you need to report her history and current behaviors in family court so that you step forward as the reasonably normal and stable parent.  Do not hide the facts of the past!  Yes, you metaphorically tossed the dice, hoping she would blossom as a parent and it boomeranged.  Don't look back, look forward and do what needs to be done so you can be an effective and involved parent for your children.

So this was IVF and not donor egg?  Those options were both on the table back then.

[Turkish]

Hi maxsterling,

I wish I could say it's good that you are back,  but it is good that you returned for support 

Who else is aware of what's going on?

T

[Notwendy]

I'm curious about the possibility of recording some of these episodes. A video camera in front of her is probably going to escalate the situation ( not a good idea) but if you are locked in a room and she is screaming at you outside the door, you could record it.

Also you can save texts and e mails. It is important that you remain calm in your responses.

I hope someone with legal experience can comment about this, as I don't have that. However - documenting her behaviors might  be protective evidence for you should your wife pursue her divorce threats. The catch it- your behaviors need to be evidence of your stability.

Documenting does not mean you are proceeding to divorce ( unless you choose to ) but making steps to protect your interests as well as those of your children should it come to that.

[livednlearned]

Hi maxsterling,

Welcome back friend. I'm glad you reached out for support.

Where do I go from here?
What would a lawyer likely tell her?
Is this child abuse?

The babies don't sound safe, maxsterling  

And nor do you.

Do you feel comfortable having a covert, private consultation with a lawyer? A consultation does not mean you have to retain them right away. It's a fact-finding mission, to help you understand what will strengthen your case in the event your wife files for divorce, or (more likely) in the event that the abuse becomes untenable for you and the babies.

One of the hard truths of family law court is that if you let things go too long, the courts want to know why you deserve favor when you didn't do anything for so long. At the very least, you want to show documentation and evidence that you made efforts to protect the kids. Evidence typically means that you shone light on the situation in some way.

I agree with others that it's not likely she will pull together the necessary motivation to actually hire a lawyer, especially not given the amount of time you mention that she's stoned. Even for someone who has strong executive function and is relatively determined to divorce, reaching out to a lawyer, dealing with the emotions that comes up, then following through with next steps, all of that is pretty tough. It took me a few starts out the gate to go through with it myself.

You are very fortunate to be seeing the abuse now while the babies are young. These first six years are critical to their development and providing an emotionally (and physically) safe home is the best thing you could ever give them. The next five years will become more challenging for your wife, especially when the kids start to individuate and become separate people. That can be very triggering for someone with BPD (substance abuse won't help).

Meanwhile, your family likely needs a big re-set, something that is much easier if you have legal and therapeutic counsel so that you follow a plan.

In some ways you are fortunate that she is diagnosed and has a history of treatment. She may be more willing to get back to a treatment plan, at least it would seem so. Maybe she needs a reboot to see how off the rails things have gone.

Unfortunately, you may have to take measures to set boundaries that require your best titanium backbone. For some of us, the best way to get that backbone is to take a step out of the relationship, even if temporarily. Or at the very least, have a plan for protecting the kids (both physically and legally) so that if she escalates the conflict, you have a plan B that prioritizes your safety and their's. If you feel it's possible to do this while in the relationship, that takes a lot of emotional strength, not just for you, but for her, too.

[Turkish]

max,

I know you were here for a long time before and maybe you've read it,  but it might be written going over this link  for some perspective.

3.04 | Domestic violence [for men]

What do you see as a plan for keeping your kids safe at this point?

[maxsterling]

Hi.  Just wanted to pop in and say things are ok for the moment.  I will write more tomorrow when i get back to work.  All i have over the weekend is my phone because i dont want to use a shared computer to visit this site.

[Notwendy]

Good idea to not post on a computer at home.

Glad things are relatively OK. Seems she's let off her steam for now. But you know this isn't isolated incidents but a pattern.

Nobody here will push you to a divorce decision. However, in the case of potential abuse to you or the children, getting legal advice so you know your choices is probably wise. Getting advice does not mean you have to act on it. It gives you more power to protect yourself and your children should either of you proceed in that direction.

I am guessing here, but it appears that what brought you to this consideration was in response to her threats, not a result of you thinking you wish to do it whether she wants to or not.

Max, the behaviors you described happened before the babies. I wonder if the relative peace was due to the decision to have the children which she wanted and she was focused on that. I can understand her wanting to have children but wanting them and having the emotional capacity to raise them may not be one and the same. I know it is hard on you to do most of it, but IMHO it is really better for them that you do. My father did most of the child raising and he hired sitters during the day. I didn't understand it as a child- resented it and wanted my mother to take care of me. I understand it better now. Thank goodness he left me with emotionally stable people. This was one of the ways he protected us from her.

Weekends were great adventures with Dad. He would take us to fun places on weekends without my mother. I suspect now that he was keeping her stress levels down and also keeping us from her rages but to us, we thought it was a great adventure to go to museums, parks, movies, restaurants with Dad all weekend. We had no idea what our mother was doing.

The divorce threats were a means of control. I can't tell if your wife will go through with it or not but my mother lacked the executive function to pull it off and my father never divorced her. The threat of divorce was used to control us " do this or mother will leave" and we'd have to do whatever it was she wanted. As teens she'd take us aside and tell us how she was going to divorce our father as a form of triangulation. It is hard to know if your wife is serious or not, but so long as you fear the threats, you may be reinforcing them by acquiescing to her demands.

While you may not be considering initiating it, you may want to consider being informed, getting documentation and anything you need to be prepared if she does follow through so that the fear of it is less. In the event that divorce becomes your choice, you would know your options.

[ForeverDad]

Notwendy shared a wonderful child's perspective.  There is more than one way to step up and be the responsible and stable parent.

While you may not be considering initiating it, you may want to consider being informed, getting documentation and anything you need to be prepared if she does follow through so that the fear of it is less. In the event that divorce becomes your choice, you would know your options.

Legal advice is confidential.  That means you don't have to share any of it with your spouse.  So don't submit to late night interrogations and pressures like that.  Of course, you have to be sure lawyers don't mail stuff to your house, and you pay by cash or some way where your spouse doesn't find receipts.

Be prepared.  Be protected.  Protect the children as much as reasonably possible.

[maxsterling]

Okay - updates.


Friday we had a houseguest arrive.  She may be here weeks to a few months.  It is a friend of Ws who needed a place to stay while she re-establishes herself.  For the short term, this is good.  But at some point I anticipate W feeling crowded and getting upset.  I think at least it will keep the overt abuse/violence down.

Regarding the abuse/violence - there hasn't been any since friday.  W was in a bad mood this morning and rude to me, but no name calling, cursing, etc.   W told me that she has a bunch of bruises, I assume from self-harm.  I don't think she is the type of person who would hurt herself and try and pin it on me as if I hit her, thankfully.

I'm thinking the divorce/lawyer talk was mostly manipulative threat.  When she was raging, she talked about hiring a lawyer, then talked about how she would likely lose, and that if she lost the kids she would probably kill herself.  He reasons why she thinks she would lose - she has a mental health history in psych hospitals, that she has no money to hire a good lawyer, that she smokes pot, etc.   Her statements were "I'm going to get a lawyer, but you are going to look like the good guy, but I will fight with all my power, and if I lose I will die." 


I think someone asked whether the kids are from donor eggs - they are.  W's cousin is the egg donor.  I think this issue is still very much unresolved in W's mind.  When W was raging, she seems to think I have this elaborate conspiracy against her - that I intentionally set out to have kids with her, make her go crazy, get full custody, and have her committed.  She thinks I have had this plan all along.  I should note that as long as I have known W, she has often thought others hate her and that if someone made a negative comment or didn't call her back she assumes the worst.  But, this conspiring against her stuff seems somewhat new - and has gotten WAY, WAY worse since she started the medical Marijuana.  It's not just me that is her target - she thinks others are working against her, too.


I'm having a hard time because last thursday was really bad, and the weekend was like nothing happened.  No apology or acknowledgement from her end.  I think I am living in fear of the rage coming back. 

[Turkish]

 That level of elaborate paranoia would be difficult to deal with or find a validation target therein. If she's on better behavior around the house guest it shows that she is capable of making choices.

[ForeverDad]

She may be behaving a little better because the house has a guest.  But if the guest stays long enough she will feel the guest's presence becoming the new normal and she'll start acting out again, pushing the limits little by little.  She has a baseline, one that is gradually deteriorating and it may be less overt now but in time she will return to her gradually deteriorating baseline.

Paranoia.  I'm here because I concluded my ex has Borderline PD.  But she more or less only fit about 7 of the 9 traits.  However, she fit every single one of the Paranoid PD traits.  She wanted to look like a doting mother to others, Mother of the Year (MOTY).  But eventually she drove nearly everyone away.  The only ones left were two or three who were disadvantaged (illegal or didn't know the language).  Often we can discern traits of more than one disorder in a person, it's called co-morbid.

[maxsterling]

That level of elaborate paranoia would be difficult to deal with or find a validation target therein. If she's on better behavior around the house guest it shows that she is capable of making choices.

Exactly.  My feeling is that if she is raging to that extent where such paranoia is evident - there is no way of diffusing that bomb.  Only option at that point is to get out.  :)ecision then is how to protect he kids, or if I need to.  She claims that it's me she is mad at, and if I leave she will calm down.

Regarding her calming with the house guest - I agree.  But it is short lived.  She was a teacher and she knew how to not rage in front of the students.  But I would guess that should she file for divorce she would not be able to hold it together in front of a judge.  She is capable of making choices to an extent, but once a line has been crossed I think she loses that ability.

[Notwendy]

Max, although you fear the raging will come back, it isn't an isolated incident. She did this before she had children ( I recall from your post, you sleeping in the other room for safety - I tend to recall posts that remind me of my parents) and she has done it after she has children. This is a pattern of behavior. Anger/frustration builds up like a kettle on the stove. The steam (anger )comes out. It is emotional purging. She feels better after it is over. It is her way of managing uncomfortable feelings.

Rather than fear the rages will come back, assume they will come back. Like the tide. What is your plan for what to do to keep your children safe when she rages.

Leaving does get you away from the rages, but I suggest you take the kids with you. Do you have family they can stay at if it is overnight? How can you bring them with you? Think of where you can go, what can you do with them. If you need to buy extra car seats for your car- do that. Have a bag of essentials for them and an extra change of clothes for yourself in the car. This is an immediate plan. That may be as much as you can manage for now.

She may say she will calm down when you leave, but if she is emotionally dysregulated she can not calm down. She's blaming her being out of control on you, but she is out of control.

I did post memories of my father removing us from the rages. I think that was a good thing. That doesn't mean we didn't see any of them- we did but it probably spared us from some of them. If he stayed, we watched the two of them have giant fights. No physical abuse but yelling, screaming, BPD mom trashing the house. Later when we were older and didn't need supervision, my father did leave the house on his own when she was raging at him. This kept the drama between them down but she did not calm down. I know every situation is different but I don't think she was able to calm down- and I don't think your wife is either from what you describe. By then, we were pretty good size compared to her- she is very petite- and not in physical danger from her. But we were scared of her rages and her behavior was inappropriate in many ways. We were also scared for her. She did try to hurt herself in front of us.

Don't assume your wife is capable of calming down if you leave and don't take the babies. IMHO, you need a plan to take them with you.

[ForeverDad]

She claims that it's me she is mad at, and if I leave she will calm down.

You are just the unlucky focus of her rants and rages.  Yes, much of the time she blames you for her triggers.  You are a convenient target.  But if you're not there, she will still blow emotionally, at people and things.  Maybe at her co-workers, boss, neighbors, mailman, garbageman, etc... .and the kids can't avoid it all.  My ex raged and cursed out the pediatrician's staff in the final stages of the divorce.  Consequence: Our wonderful pediatrician "fired" her by "withdrawing services".  She raged at teachers and even the vice principal.  Consequence: I had just gotten Residential Parent a few weeks earlier and they gave me ONE day to enroll him in my school's kindergarten for the last month of school.  Even if she somehow manages not to rage at them, they will certainly be impacted in various ways, just as Notwendy experienced as a child.

I called CPS twice in the months before my separation and divorce.  Here's what happened.  Evidently there is a bar set that must be breached for the verbal abuse to become 'actionable', at least in my area.

I recall when I called CPS - twice - in the months before my separation and divorce that both staff members asked me, "Is she directing her screaming at you or at the child?"  I had to admit that I was the primary 'target'.  I was told, "In that case, call back if she starts screaming at your child."  Apparently children being exposed to verbal abuse was not actionable in my area, but being the target of verbal abuse might be.  I recall one of them also told me to do what her mother had done, separate and divorce.

[maxsterling]

You are just the unlucky focus of her rants and rages.  Yes, much of the time she blames you for her triggers.  You are a convenient target.  But if you're not there, she will still blow emotionally, at people and things.  Maybe at her co-workers, boss, neighbors, mailman, garbageman, etc... .and the kids can't avoid it all.  My ex raged and cursed out the pediatrician's staff in the final stages of the divorce.  Consequence: Our wonderful pediatrician "fired" her by "withdrawing services".  She raged at teachers and even the vice principal.  Consequence: I had just gotten Residential Parent a few weeks earlier and they gave me ONE day to enroll him in my school's kindergarten for the last month of school.  Even if she somehow manages not to rage at them, they will certainly be impacted in various ways, just as Notwendy experienced as a child.

Oh wow.  Last time we were at the pediatritian she did get upset because she thought we were waiting too long.   Not a full on rage, but more tban a stern complaint.   Our wedding caterer cancelled about a month prior to the wedding because she was too demanding.  The babysitter quit, and I assume W's attitude was a factor.  W had two different lactation consultants tell her they would no longer work with her.  One day we got rear ended (very minor) and w got out and screamed at the woman until she cried. Had i not been there to tell W to sit in the car with the babies, she would have likely assaulted the woman and been arrested.

You make a good point.  If its not me it would be someone else.

[Notwendy]

Max, the Karpman (drama) triangle is the model of distorted thinking that drives this behavior. From what I have observed, the person with BPD assumes Victim position. This is the perspective they tend to take when interacting with other people. BPD affects the most intimate relationships the most, but anyone can take "Persecutor " position in this kind of  thinking.

I'm not an expert in paranoia, but I think this plays into it. A person might say or do something that isn't intended or personal to them, but in victim mode- "they are doing something to me on purpose"

There is some measure of control over this in a less intimate setting. I think we all have a more formal persona in public, so a person with BPD can do this too to some extent- be  motivated to hold it together in non -familiar settings but if distorted thinking is there, it is still there in all settings, and others can potentially trigger the BPD anger.

[maxsterling]

Max, the Karpman (drama) triangle is the model of distorted thinking that drives this behavior. From what I have observed, the person with BPD assumes Victim position. This is the perspective they tend to take when interacting with other people.

Wow!  This would explain what is going on.  W has continuously acted like a victim since we started fertility treatment -

- She was a "victim" for being infertile.  The infertility was likely a result of age (39) at the time and poor lifestyle choices earlier in life (smoking and drug abuse).  She tries to blame me for this - that we waited to long to try (we were both 37 when we met). 
- she is a "victim" for us not having much money.  Again, she blames me for this.  The reality, our lack of spending money comes from us spending too much - mostly W spending too much.  I suspect the Medical Marijuana is costing us about the same as a small car payment each month.  Then there are all the times we wind up eating out. 
- She is a victim because she had to have an emergency hysterectomy during childbirth.  She tried blaming this on me the other night, but usually she tries blaming the doctor.  Reality?  The Doctor saved her life.  But somehow she thinks there could have been an earlier test and her uterus could have been saved.  Medically, I don't think this is true.  The result would have been the same either way.  Again, her lifestyle choices may have been a factor here.
-  She is a victim because she is depressed/anxious/has PTSD.  I don't want to belittle this, but the end result is that she feels because of this she deserves more slack/help/understanding than everyone else.  Yet she quit going to therapy (but she did make an appointment for tomorrow - first time in a few months).

For the past 2+ years, it seems like she blames everyone else but herself for nearly everything.  Sometimes she gets on a self-hate trip and turn the finger back around, but that doesn't last long.  Within a few minutes she is always finding someone/something else to blame.

Here's my issue - assuming this is the case, what is there to do?  I feel completely in self-protection mode right now and have ZERO energy to validate or work with her on her issues.  I feel depressed, trapped, stressed, and bombarded with responsibilities and tasks.  I may have energy to deal with this *if* she was seeking help with a professional first.

How would a counselor/psychologist deal with this?  I feel W was much better at dealing with these victim type feelings when she was in a 12-step program.  Her sponsors helped her look at her own roles.  I feel she does none of that self-refelction now. 

And should this go to court/divorce, how does the "victim" role play out there?  I feel W has already set herself up here - her words the other night were as if she is the victim for having to go the divorce route, and she will be the victim because she will lose custody... .

[Notwendy]

Max, for me, the benefit of the Karpman triangle is understanding the disordered thinking process and also my roles on it. When the pwBPD takes on Victim perspective, then other people are either Rescuer or Persecutor in that model- either intentionally or not intentionally. Speaking from decades of observing my BPD mother- she is in Victim mode and unless she were to be motivated enough to go through intense therapy, that is unlikely to change. I can not change her thinking for her, she has to do it herself.

What I can change is my actions. My tendency ( and other in my family) is to jump in, not even thinking about it, as her Rescuer. My father was her Rescuer when he was alive. If I want to stop my involvement on the triangle, then all I can do is stop my own behavior, stop Rescuing. The triangle helps me to not take her emotional reactions personally. Victim mode is not rational. An accusation may be her point of view- but just because she sees it that way does not make it true. . I can't change her being on the Triangle but I don't have to be a participant on it. When I don't take her perspective personally ,I don't feel as hurt, and I don't react as emotionally to it. This helps to keep me from adding to the drama.

Look at your response Max: Here's my issue - assuming this is the case, what is there to do?  I feel completely in self-protection mode right now and have ZERO energy to validate or work with her on her issues.  I feel depressed, trapped, stressed, and bombarded with responsibilities and tasks.  I may have energy to deal with this *if* she was seeking help with a professional first.

Max, this is Rescue behavior. I think this is a common pairing- a pwBPD pairs with an enabler/Rescuer. When you take on any responsibility for her disordered thinking - and assume it is something you need to work on- you are Rescuing. She is the one with the disordered thinking and only she ( through therapy) can change it. If there is anything you can do to change the dynamics it is through looking at your behavior and making changes. I don't know if you are in therapy or a 12 step co dependency program but those things can help you.

I can see why 12 steps helped her some, because a good sponsor won't accept Victim perspective and will hold the person responsible for their actions. I've been through this for co-dependency and it is valuable. But if there is serious mental illness, I think a person needs professional therapy in addition. You are correct, the person has to want to go to therapy and be motivated to change. It can not be done for them.

You are completely drained right now. You can't change her thinking, but in your situation, self care is key. Your babies depend on you to be well, strong and rational. To me, I can not stress this enough. To take care of your babies, you need to take care of yourself. Since you are motivated to make things better, 12 steps/counseling is likely to be more effective for you than for your wife at this time.

[formflier]

Maxsterling,

Congrats on twins!  I wish you the best as you sort through how to parent and raise them, with this BPDish stuff clanging around in your life.

I noticed you mentioned paranoia some... .and if you remember, that is central to my wife's issues.  What I found is that once I was sure I was no longer "invalidating" her... .the paranoia slowly "died on the vine"

I'm "fair" at validation.  For me... .it's fairly easy to slow down and not invalidate... .I feel like it takes a ton of energy for me to validate properly... .so many times I skip it... .make sure I don't invalidate and go on about my business.

I mention this because of how exhausted you sound.

Anyway... .I hope we can help you sort through this so you can figure out a way to raise your twins in relative stability.

Best...

FF

[maxsterling]

Once again, thanks for the replies here.   I haven't yet had the time to contact the resources some of you have given me, but it is very helpful to know those resources are available when I am ready.  I do have a question, though. 


I used to see a counselor on a regular basis.  This was helpful for awhile, but after awhile it became frustrating for both me and the counselor.  The counselor was blunt - that I was in an abusive relationship with a woman who has a personality disorder that is very difficult to treat, and that really my only option is to leave because she is unlikely to change in any positive way.  Part of me is embarrassed to see a counselor again because I chose to stay and have children even after this advice.  I also used to attend al-anon meetings.  I would still like to attend meetings, but stopped for two reasons - first is a lack of time.  I want to be there for my kids.  The only time I could go to a meeting is during lunch break at work.  The other reason being that since my wife quit 12-step programs, she is VERY resentful if I go.  Not going to meetings has been a way to keep peace.  Any sense of self-care I got from the meeting was soon wiped out by the dysregulation when I got home.

Here is my question - It is my understanding that meetings with lawyers and counselors is confidential EXCEPT in cases where they suspect child abuse, in which case they are required to report it to Child Protective Services.  In my case, if I saw a counselor or a lawyer and mentioned that my wife had been violent towards me in front of the children, had been abusive to me in front of the children, and has thrown objects at me while I was holding a child, would that cause the counselor or lawyer to contact CPS?  Not that contacting CPS would ultimately be a bad thing if warranted - but at this time I think if that happened it very much could make the problem much more explosive.  I hear numerous stories about bad things happening between the time CPS is involved and when action is taken.  My fear is that they open a case, W becomes aware, and then CPS is either slow to take action or does not take appropriate action.  Meanwhile, I and the children are left in a very vulnerable position.   Again I will mention that for the most part, other than grouchy moods, W is good with the kids and the kids want their mom.  It is only during the times of rage that I truly fear harm.  There have been only 2-3 periods of rage like this in the past year and a half.  For now, I would rather take action to protect myself and the children during the times of rage rather than have a case worker contact W and initiate an extended period of rage and dysregulation. 

[ForeverDad]

In my case, if I saw a counselor or a lawyer and mentioned that my wife had been violent towards me in front of the children, had been abusive to me in front of the children, and has thrown objects at me while I was holding a child, would that cause the counselor or lawyer to contact CPS?

Previously on this thread I mentioned that I twice called my CPS and reported ex raging at me.  Both times different women who answered told me to call back if she started directing rage at our child, then 3 years old.  One added that divorce was the option her own mother chose.  (And a few months later I separated too, then started divorce.)

So my experience was that children being around abuse is probably not actionable, at least in my area.  However, whether you are there or not the odds are that at some point she will start raging at the kids too.  We have a saying around here... .If it has been contemplated or threatened, it will happen, given enough time.  If she is used to raging at you, it is not unrealistic to expect her to rage at the kids eventually.  Right now, they're very young and she may do 'okay' with babies and toddlers.  But soon they'll be reaching the 2s & 3s where most kids get stubborn, fuss, fume, kick and whatever.  She will lose whatever patience she has with them at least some of the time.  It's just a matter of time.

The problem is that she stopped therapy (or wasn't seriously trying) and is using other methods to self-medicate.  BPD is not an issues of meds like Bipolar, it's about therapy to help a person look outside themselves and their perceptions when facing issues.  I think Wise Mind (mindfulness) for you and her is something to research.  Meds or MJ or other stopgaps may moderate situations but aren't The Solution that therapy such as DBT or CBT can be.

But to get back to topic... .Loss of self-control by either parent to anyone is Bad (and a Bad example) for the kids.  What example is being set for them?  Do we want ranting or raging or explosions at the drop of a hat to become the norm for our kids and in their comfort zone?  Should they learn how to tiptoe around rages and lie or appease to avoid triggering overreactions?  Want to guess what relationships they'll choose when grown?  An appeaser or compliant spouse like dad?  Or an impatient, in-the-moment controller like mom?

[Turkish]

If the kids are witness to physical abuse it may be reportable. The Kaiser T was going to report my ex for punching her H in front of the kids (she ended up not doing so since we were all the talking classes, my ex "took responsibility" for it and both kids were in therapy.  I told my T she's he said he likely wouldn't have reported because the kids weren't in danger.  In California, from what I understand, kids witnessing physical abuse is reportable.

Needless to say it isn't good for the kids. My ex grew up witnessing her dad beating mom... .mom did nothing, she ended up resenting her mother as well. She once went to attack her dad during one of his breathing sessions.  Hence, it's good not only to have have a safety plan but also a long term plan.  You already know this isn't good for you and your kids and you're unsure what would happen if CPS got involved.  It wouldn't look good if it's known later that this went on for a long time.  A good first step might be reaching out to anonymous resources and document that you did. 

Me? I told my T and he said "I have to report this but it would be better for many reasons if you reported it." Different situation than yours though.

[Harri]

If you are attacked while holding the kids, either by her jumping on your back or throwing things at you, would that be child endangerment?  You might want to find out.  As Turkish said, it would not be good if people found out this had been going on for a long time and you took no action.

I suggest reading and learning about what it is like to have a parent with BPD.  Your kids are lucky that they have you to be their stable parent as that can make a huge difference (like Notwendy said) but that means taking care of you and also understanding child development, knowing that even infants can sense and react to parents moods and tone of voice and really understanding that emotional abuse is a huge cause for concern, sometimes more so than physical abuse.  Infants, toddlers and children are far more aware than most adults think though they may not fully understand what is going on, they know something is going on.  Given that at early ages the kids are very egocentric, they will often always blame their self for the bad behavior or treatment from adults and bad behavior between adults. 

I know you have a lot on your plate so when you can read Understanding the Borderline Mother by Lawson.  And get very good at validation for kids whether you stay married or not.  Knowledge is important and can help you and help you help your kids. 

Peace to you and yours

[formflier]

  it would not be good if people found out this had been going on for a long time and you took no action.
 

Keep a recorder app on your phone... .so there is some "proof" of your side of future things like this.

You don't want to be in a situation where she is getting some amount of credibility... for whatever stories she makes up.

FF

[Notwendy]

Max, a couple of things you said-

I used to see a counselor on a regular basis.  This was helpful for awhile, but after awhile it became frustrating for both me and the counselor.  The counselor was blunt - that I was in an abusive relationship with a woman who has a personality disorder that is very difficult to treat, and that really my only option is to leave because she is unlikely to change in any positive way.  Part of me is embarrassed to see a counselor again because I chose to stay and have children even after this advice.


I am not a therapist, but I think a skilled one would have seen this before and understands the dynamics that led you to stay and have the children. I understand the embarrassment, but I hope it doesn't keep you from seeking help if you want to. They are not there to judge you but to help you work through your feelings, including feeling embarrassed. It's OK to seek help.

I also used to attend al-anon meetings.  I would still like to attend meetings, but stopped for two reasons - first is a lack of time.  I want to be there for my kids.  The only time I could go to a meeting is during lunch break at work.  The other reason being that since my wife quit 12-step programs, she is VERY resentful if I go.  Not going to meetings has been a way to keep peace.  Any sense of self-care I got from the meeting was soon wiped out by the dysregulation when I got home.

I can imagine several things that would make you going to meetings feel threatening to her. When people attend meetings, they can change the dynamics in a relationship and that feels uncomfortable. She knows you will learn about boundaries and not to enable and that isn't a comfortable situation for either of you. Going to a meeting is a confidential situation. You can go at lunch, she does not have to know and it isn't wrong not to tell her because you are not doing anything wrong by attending.

[maxsterling]

Still here -

Not much has changed.  W isn't currently talking about "divorce" per say, but she is making other statements about "moving out".  Then again, she is also making statements about us purchasing things together and things we can do in the future - so one minute it is one thing, the next is it the polar opposite.  I am realizing she's pissed at everyone, not just me.  She seems to be upset with the house guest - I think because she expects the house guest to be more available, but the guest is instead doing more of her own thing.  I get the feeling that the guest is feeling a bit uncomfortable by W's negativity, and I think W senses that, too.  The latest (well, this is a constant complaint) is that she feels she is doing the child raising all herself.  She fails to recognize how much work I do, then gets mad at me and complains I don't help.  I have no expectations of her or what she needs to get done around the house, I only ask that she recognize that I am working my butt off too and to not complain about or criticize me. 

The only positive I can think of since I last posted is that W did go to therapy for the first time in a month or two, and was actually in an OK mood afterwards.  Normally, therapy gets her worked up, and I think validates some kind of negativity or complaint about me or someone else.  Most of the time when she comes home from therapy she is in a negative, grouchy mood.

The reality is I feel drained.  I can't keep living like this.  I pray every day for a morning where she isn't on my case about something.  The constant negativity sucks the energy out of me.  This morning, I was having some abdominal pain issues (probably stress related and I get them every few months).  I decided I was better off driving to work and dealing with them there rather than stay at home.  I look forward to night time, either her being asleep or me being asleep.  I'm actually OK with the kids waking up at night and having to take care of them in the next room, or taking care of the kids in the morning, because those are the opportunities I have to look after the kids without being criticized about something. 

I think my first step will be to go to a few al-anon meetings.  There is one near my work that meets over lunch - I can go to that one.  Then maybe counseling.  I think at first I will also try and find a counselor I can go to on my lunch break and keep it private.  Hopefully those two will help me organize my thoughts better and then I will feel better about contacting some of the domestic violence and legal resources that you folks provided me.  I just don't have the energy to take that step now.

Interestingly and mostly unrelated, I was walking the dog and the kids the other morning, and I passed by a house where a young woman stormed out with a few bags of haphazardly packed belongings.  She was yelling and cursing and making aggressive gestures as she walked away.  Really angry.  I avoided her, and avoided making eye contact with her.  But it reminded me of the times when W would follow me outside the house cursing and screaming and slamming the door.  That evening, when I was walking the dog by the same house, there were three police cars, and the woman (I think it was the same one) was being arrested.  I can only imagine what happened, but my guess is some kind of domestic dispute.  She was probably the girlfriend of the person who lived in the house, and was likely refusing to leave, damaged property, or committed assault.  The whole incident was quite eye-opening for me.