Met After 5 Months NC—Was It The End or Not? (Long Post)

[stixx44]

Short backstory—long post (sorry).  But I need to vent.

I was involved with a woman for ten crazy months of passion, arguing, breakups, reunions.  Reunited after 3 months in late February (at my urging) for a wonderful week.  She pulled the plug after a great night out—the best night out I had ever had with her— and just like that, we were done, again.  (She purposely sabotaged the evening as I was dropping her home by bringing up a topic she knew I couldn’t give her a positive answer to and thought had been resolved—marriage.  She wants it, I don’t.  Made that clear from our first date, and she accepted my reasons but continued to see me.)

Two days after the breakup, I found out that my best friend slept with my ex in the 3 months we were apart.  That devastated me as I felt betrayed by my friend and my ex.  We are no longer friends.  Through the 2-month period they were together, my ex was texting me love notes which I didn’t take the bait on and my friend and I were going out to dinner and doing things that friends do.  I always confided my feelings about my ex to her.  Meanwhile they were sleeping together and she was telling my ex things about me. I was in the dark.

That knowledge actually helped me to maintain NC (for 5 months) with my ex, something I could never achieve through our former breakups, try as I wanted to.  But I wanted her to know I knew, but then I couldn’t see the point.  I hated her, I hated my friend.  The thought of ever reuniting with her and being intimate disgusted me.  We had problems, sure.  But cheating was never an issue.  (Or maybe it was and I didn’t see it.  I’ll never know now for sure.). We were together so frequently that I don’t know where she could have fit it in... .except for the breakup times.

Anyway, during the great “Reunion Week” in February where I thought we were rekindling and working on our r/s, we were intimate a number of times.  And the feelings and passion were still there. 

After learning about her tryst with my friend, I had grave doubts about that week and felt humiliated and used.  I was angry at myself for going back.  I questioned whether her feelings for me during the entire r/s were ever real.  As I said, I hated her... .and that’s a strong word for me to use. I was so angry at her... .I was determined that this was the final straw.  It had to be.  How could I love a woman so deceitful, disloyal, and devious?  And what was wrong with me?

My ex had no knowledge that I knew of her betrayal. She and my friend had parted ways 6 weeks earlier and haven’t spoken since. A week into our breakup, she texted me.  She said she waited so long for me and that she was a fool.  Then she threw in some lyrics from a love song to bait me into answering. My history with her was that I ALWAYS responded to her texts. This would be the first time I ignored her.  And in my angry state of mind, it was easy.  For the very first time, I felt capable of letting her go.

That anger worked well for me for about two months.  I convinced myself that this was good... .maybe this was how it really had to end after all.  Use the anger.  It kept me from thinking good thoughts about her.  All the past good memories became fake memories in my head.  I convinced myself that every good thing in our ten months together was not real, and it helped... .for a while.

The third month of NC (which she never broke) I noticed a change in myself.  I started letting go of my anger.  I would go to Mass and pray to find the ability to forgive her and my friend.  Forgive her because I believe she has serious issues and didn’t engage in this behavior to hurt me specifically but did it to relieve her own anxiety. 

But then I would catch myself and say hey... .are you just making excuses for her?  Believe me when I tell you that this ate away at me for a full 5 months.  As the months rolled by, I would vacillate between anger, forgiveness, warm feelings, longings, and most of all wanting to tell her that I knew.  And then wanting to find out from her, in person, why this happened? I wanted to see her expression.

Fast forward to two weeks ago, a full 5 months NC.  My feelings for her, never quite gone but just overlaid with anger, started to resurface.  I wanted to meet with her, face to face, and have a talk about this issue and (and here’s where I get myself back on the train again) see if there’s any way we could work through this. 

I sent her a short letter through the mail.  Casual, saying I hate how we ended things (the Feb breakup was nasty on my part... .I lost my temper and was pretty harsh).  Saying I would like to start at least communicating from time to time if she thought she could do that and maybe meet at some point to talk. 

She texted me she received the letter and thanked me for it.  We had a short thread about benign stuff and I was glad to hear from her.  Remember, my first goal was to get to a point with her to meet so I could tell her that I knew what happened.  I wanted her to know how that affected me.

She did state that she wasn’t ready for a meeting, as that would be too emotional for her.  I understood that, said I glad that the lines of communication were open, and was prepared to have a text relationship with her for as long as it would take until she was able to see me in person.  I was good. I didn’t initiate texts.  I have learned a bit reading here and used the tools. She started texting me.  I tried to keep the texts “relationship-free” and keep the chats to mutual interest stuff. 

Of course I was hopeful she still had feelings for me, but if she didn’t, OK. I could live with that.  My main purpose after all was to get off my chest what she did was so unacceptable and hurtful. Whether she took responsibility for it or not, I had to say it to her for me.  I had to let it out and let it go.

One night last week her texting took a turn and she starting rehashing romantic stuff between us.  She was opening up the door for something from me.  I was pleased but always wary with her.  During this particular thread, she was not responding to my comments in a normal timely way.  I kept asking her if she was ok?  Ten minutes would go by, no response, then a response not in keeping with my comments.  She was all over the place.  I knew what was happening.  She was drinking, she was becoming overly emotional because of my recent re-entry after 5 months, and she was having a difficult time—she was conflicted.  I felt terrible that I just didn’t leave well enough alone and was causing her this distress.  We abruptly stopped texting for the night. And it left me feeling uneasy.

I realized a meeting was never going to happen and I would never be able to tell her my thoughts.  So I wrote everything down in a very nice letter.  In a nutshell I told her about my feelings about her and my friend, that I wished we could get past this and truly work out our issues together, talked about trust, love, building a r/s with her, how 5 months apart might have been good for both of us, her excessive drinking, my part in our r/s.  It was not a blaming letter.  It was a more of a “we still obviously have feelings for each other, I know this happened, I am prepared to talk to you about it, and let’s see if we can work this out.”  An “I will if you will” sort of thing. 

So, here’s the awkward part.  I decided in my infinite wisdom to drive this letter over to her house and place it in her hands and politely say please read this and then leave.  Bad idea. I honestly wanted to just lay eyes on her, as it had been 5 months and I thought that this could really be the last time I ever see her.  And I knew her seeing me would evoke a reaction from her.

I drive up her block and can see her house just in time to see her car pulling into her driveway (sigh of relief that she was home).  I speed up and see a pickup truck pull right in behind her.  I cannot speed by.  I’m right in front of her house, they see me (I drive a bright colored car that you cannot ignore) so I have to stop.  My head is spinning.  I think “oh sh*t... .who is this person and what do I do now?” 

Being an adult and possessing a certain degree of decorum, I parked, got out of my car, and extended my hand to this nice-looking, much younger woman who I just knew was my ex’s new lover.  I introduced myself and surprisingly she said “Yes, I know who you are from pictures.”  I asked if she would mind if I had a few words with my ex.  She said no problem.

My ex came up to me all smiles.  We went to my car and talked for about 5 minutes.  She told me she was just thinking of texting me and offering to go car shopping with me (a point I had made in our recent texts).  I asked if this woman was her girlfriend, she gave me that hand gesture of “so-so.” I apologized for coming unannounced and said I did not want to intrude here. 

My whole reason for going to her house changed when I spoke with her face to face.  Instead of giving her the letter (couldn’t do it with the other person there) I asked her if she would be willing to talk at some time soon... .I had things I needed to say to her.  I wanted to be honest with her and told her I still had feelings for her and wanted to discuss that, too.  Asked if she still had feelings for me... .she said yes.  Let’s talk about it.

She came to my place the next morning for a three-hour very civil, sometimes flirty, serious, sometimes emotional, always skin contact between us conversation.  We held hands while we talked, she either had her hand on my arm or leg or I had my hand somewhere on hers.  We had moments where I kissed her gently and she received me warmly.  Nothing heavy... .but sweet nostalgic moments.  We sort of fell into our old habits the way we were sitting on the chaise lounge, touching each other.

The content of this talk was about both of our mistakes during our ten months.  I brought up the friend betrayal in A very non-threatening non-judgmental way.  But I left NO DOUBT how that behavior affected me tremendously and made me look at her so differently.  Her reaction disappointed me.  She gave me the “Don’t be so upset.  It was nothing.  We were both drunk” lines.  She really didn’t get the impact on ME.  I was not surprised as I know how she is but I hope she at least understood my point.  I know casual sex is something she had engaged in in her past, but the fact that it was with my friend was the point here.

I know I’m going on and there’s so much more that happened during our convo and admissions she made to me that she actually went to three therapy sessions (a huge surprise... .she’s not a therapy proponent) and was told she will never have a meaningful r/s with anyone as long as she keeps drinking.  Her therapist told her, upon hearing the details of the problems we had in our r/s, that it was HER fault the r/s didn’t work out.  And my ex told me she agreed with that assessment.

As for working on our r/s in the future, she said she needed to get her drinking under control before she could entertain that.  She said she’s tired of living the way she is, that after we broke up she really spiraled into binge drinking.  She said the woman is a month-long r/s and nothing compared to how she felt with me. Truth or not?  Not sure if I believe her. My trust is gone right now.

We left it at me saying I won’t text but you can feel free to contact me at any time.  I’m here for you and all that stuff.  She said I gave her a lot to think about.  I gave her the letter and she drove off.

I plan to give her space and time, and I certainly do not want to interfere in her new r/s.  The way I feel now is if this woman makes her happier than I did, I wish her well, as hard as it is for me to know there’s someone else now.  I hope she straightens herself out.  Chances are she won’t, and our talk becomes a good closing point for us.

I will move on from this.  If she reaches out to me in the future at some point and if I’m unattached and still feel the same for her, I will engage.  Otherwise, I’m going to proceed with my life without her.

I guess my red flags here are the fact that she left her present “gf” to come and talk to me and told her she was doing it.  Why did she even come?  Curiosity? Actually wanting to hear what I had to say?  She knew I was going to talk to her about the possibility of working things out... .I mentioned it to her when I saw her at her house.  If she wasn’t interested and knew there was no point in that kind of discussion, why do it?  Why not just say “hey, there’s no point because it truly is over now.”

I guess that’s where I’m left wondering. Only time will tell.  I did write in my letter more than once that if she knows in her heart that there’s no chance for me, just tell me and I can accept that.  I need to know. 

Haven’t heard that yet... .I know it’s early days and a lot for her to process.  We’ll see.

I don’t want to be a back-burner person, but I think I placed myself in that position.  No one else to blame.  I broke NC, she did not.  So I will have nothing to do but see what happens in a month or two or three.  Eventually, if I don’t hear from her, my feelings will start to wane.  I achieved my goal of telling her I knew about her indiscretion with my friend.  The rest... .well, no control over that.  It’s all up to her.

Any thoughts appreciated.  Just wanted to get it all out.  Thanks for reading.

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[babyducks]

Hi stixx44,

there is so much good stuff in your post, a lot of insight and careful thought.    I'd like to start and see if I can reply to some of it.

I understand exactly what you mean when you say the anger worked well for you.   I did a very similar thing.   when I was angry with my partner I could stay away,   I felt less hurt.   I felt more certain about which direction I wanted to go.    I used my anger to manage my pain.  and then the anger started to drift away.

one of our senior members said this in another thread and I thought it was so brilliant, I wanted to quote it here:

However, there are some things to think about when it comes to BPD relationships.

With BPD, boundaries are a struggle. That amazing merged/fused feeling with someone who understands you -- that wonderful feeling can often be a sign that boundaries are mushy or nonexistent in the relationship. You may love that feeling. She may love it temporarily, and then it becomes alarming because she has taken on characteristics of someone else who can leave, which feeds fear of abandonment. Staying with her, reassuring her, pleading with her -- these don't work because the core wound is a lack of self, which you cannot give her. Some describe BPD not as a fear of abandonment, but as an abandonment of self.

Sometimes, a person suffering from BPD will recoil when the fusion feels too overwhelming because *self* will not have the same kind of definition as yours. Love is also tricky because she may not be certain who you are loving if she was mirroring you back to yourself.

There is also a possibility that she lost affect, and feels nothing but emptiness, and that it will pass.

It's hard to know, but all of these things are possible with a BPD loved one.

I found I recognized the bit about mushy boundaries and fused feelings.   Oh yeah, that was me.       I have come to believe that my ex loved that fused together feeling, right up until it scared her and then she needed to find a way to manage that amoeba like oneness.   

I can understand why her reaction to the friend betrayal was disappointing.   I would have been disappointed too.     That was a huge blow.    both her reaction and the betrayal.   

I think it's up to you, to decide how much access you allow her to have to your emotions, and to decide if it is possible to have a relationship or friendship with her.    Have you given any thought to what your 'lines in the sand' are?    Have you identified your boundaries around drinking and casual sex?   

'ducks

[stixx44]

B’Ducks,

Thanks for the insight. 

We both agreed that friendship will never be possible. We are too emotionally and physically connected when we’re in each other’s presence that it would not be possible.

Casual sex is not me.  Has never been anything I could engage in, and she knows that.  She, on the other hand, can.  I totally understand that people have different views on that.  Sex is not sacred to them, it’s almost a form of recreational release.  For me, I need to have a very deep emotional connection before I can be intimate.  I don’t hold that against her.  I believe her when she said it meant nothing to her.  She was not with me at the time.  What she does when not attached is her decision to make.  The fact it was with my friend is the issue with me. 

How much access will I allow her?  Well, I am willing to see if this recent series of events and the heart-to-heart has any effect on her.  She is going out of state next week for a few weeks, and she said that will be a good thing for her. It will give her time to think.

I will not put my life on hold.  I am currently on a dating site since we’ve been separated for 5 months, but truthfully, it would not be fair to anyone to get involved with me right now.  We are older, too... .both in our mid-60s, which is another reason I want to resolve this one way or the other.

I did bring that up to her... .does she want to look back 5 years from now and regret that she didn’t take this olive branch I offered her to try to work through our problems, her drinking, and anything else with me? 

I was impressed with her willingness to finally open up to me.  She’s never been a talker, but she talked and admitted her fault in all this.  She seems to truly want to get her drinking problem behind her, but I don’t know if she will.  She admitted she thinks about me all the time.  She said she’s only fallen in love twice in her life (a fact she reiterated so many times to me in our time together).  She never expected that to happen to her again.

This recent relationship she’s in sounds like the one she was in before she met me.  It was with a nice woman who she liked but didn’t love... .hence, she went on a dating site and found me.  According to her, I rocked her world in both good and bad ways because of the intensity of feeling she had (has) for me.  She said she knew after our first meeting that she was going to fall hard for me.  A red flag, I know, but I had fallen in love once, too, upon first meeting.  I know that can happen.  Maybe love is too strong a word, but you know what I’m saying.

The good news for me is I don’t feel set back from this meeting.  I was happy to see her, laid out my feelings and plans for how we could go about building our relationship to a permanent situation (which is what she is looking for ultimately), and assured her I would be with her every step of the way if she took my offer.

I made it plain that she has to know that even after knowing each other for 20 months, including various breakups—even knowing about her betrayal of me, even knowing about her alcoholism—I am still here for her.  And that should show her that I don’t leave.

That doesn’t mean I will sit and pine away forever.  I won’t.  But there will come a point if she doesn’t reach out to me that I will know it’s over for good.  I told her to tell me if and when she knows there’s absolutely no going back with me, but I don’t think she’ll ever say “It’s over. I can’t have a r/s with you. Move on.”  Even though that would be so helpful to me.

I refuse to cling to hope or breadcrumbs from her.  I’ve done it too many times.  This was my Hail Mary to her, and I also made that plain.

We cannot have a FWB relationship either, for the same reasons we cannot just be friends.  I find it ironic that she can have a r/s with this woman who she has some feeling for but not with me.  I guess this other woman is safe for her.  She can control it.  She doesn’t become “unraveled” (her word for what I do to her, not mine.)

Anyway, time will ultimately tell.  I’ve read other posts here of people who have made the same gesture and it failed.  No response ever.  So I know there’s probably a 90% chance that will happen here too.  But I am so much better prepared for a negative outcome than I ever have been before, thanks to all the reading I’ve done here.

Stixx

[babyducks]

Good Morning Stixx,

I am still working on my first cup of caffeine so excuse me if this comes out a bit fuzzy.   

I'm a little confused.    maybe I am missing something.    You still have feelings for her, you laid out your feelings and plans for building a permanent relationship, and told her you would be there for her every step of the way.   But you are still on a dating site.    that sounds like a bit of a mixed message, it sounds a bit conflicted to me.     it sounds as if you are putting a lot of the decision making power on her.   as if what you do, (or don't do), with your feelings depends on her and her actions.   I'm going to suggest you are the owner of your feelings and what you do with them (or don't do) with them should be based on what you think is best for your life, not on what ever actions she takes or doesn't take.

don't get me wrong,  I am sure your Hail Mary was heartfelt and sincere and deeply moving.  I am sure it expressed a lot of your deep emotions.   I think it was good to have the opportunity to put things out there.   I am glad you worked for clarity about what you wanted and what you would do to get there.    Still I wonder about this:

But there will come a point if she doesn’t reach out to me that I will know it’s over for good.  I told her to tell me if and when she knows there’s absolutely no going back with me, but I don’t think she’ll ever say “It’s over. I can’t have a r/s with you. Move on.”  Even though that would be so helpful to me.

that sounds to me sort of nebulous,  tentative.   as if you are dependent on her, and her decision, all the while understanding her limitations.    What about your ability to make an independent decision?    Here is why I am concerned.    pwBPD (or the traits) have labile and unpredictable shifts in mood and perspective.     I wouldn't want you to put all your eggs in one basket, so to speak and allow her to drive the relationship completely.    I would suggest it's important to be very very specific in when you know its over.    and also to be very very specific in what exactly you mean when you say you will be there every step of the way.


I am wondering, if she returns after her trip out of state in a few weeks and says Okay let's try again,  how would that look for you?     There is an old timer here who says over and over again, if you go back into the relationship being the same person you were before, doing the same things you did before, you are going to get what you have always gotten, only more so.     What things do you think you need to change or work on to give this relationship a chance to work?


I know that's a hard question.    Still I think it's better to try and work through that here, with us while she is out of state, than with her, should she return.     She will not be able to provide much emotional support for you as you grapple with some of these issues.

This is right out of the lessons:

If you are in this type of relationship it is important to have realistic expectations for what the relationship can be in terms of consistent respect, trust and support, honesty and accountability, and in terms of negotiation and fairness, or expectations of non-threatening behavior.  It is important to accept the relationship behavior for what it is - not hope the person will permanently return to the idealization phase, not accept the external excuses for the bad behavior, and not hope that changing your behavior to heal someone else.

What does realistic expectations look like?   How can you manage your expectations and experience?      What would be the first step to re-kindling the relationshp?   I think it's better to work through some of this while she takes her time to think through what she wants to do.   Put you more in the drivers seat, less on the back burner.

'ducks

[stixx44]

Thanks for your reply.  Everything you said I know to be correct.  I am on a dating site but am not particularly active at this time.  As I said, I am not ready to give anything to anyone right now.  I rarely check it, so that’s not an issue for me.

I do let her drive my actions... .you’re right about that.  A lot has happened in the last 24 hours, none of it good, nice, or productive.

She texted me early in the morning that she thought about what we had discussed, and she feels it’s best if we both move on.  She was definitive and cutting.  Her reasoning was that she can’t accept my religious views... .I’m Catholic.  She said organized religion is nothing short of brainwashing.

Of course I got my back up and took offense at that, not at her decision.  I accept the decision.   But rather than just close the conversation with a quick goodbye, good luck... .I engaged her in what became a nasty text battle.  It devolved quickly, and we decided to just end it and not contact each other anymore. 

Not that it matters anymore, but my problem with her argument was that she knew from the beginning of our relationship that I went to Mass every week and would not get married unless the church sanctioned it.  My view, not hers.  She accepted that and continued with me for the remainder of the ten months we were together. 

What angered me and what I brought up to her was why did she come to my place for a talk at all, considering that she knew my views were firm? I said she just should have told me at her house and not have let me go through the long conversation we had at my place the next day.

Her answer?  She was hoping for a different response from me... .even rocks change formation.

Anyway, case closed.  I cannot have her in my life.  She’s too out there, ever-changing, and she’s involved with another anyway (which, strange as it seems, makes it somewhat easier for me).  She’s bad for me. 

It was a terrible relationship with lots of red flags, turmoil, and moments of intense passion.  I also found out through FB that she’s been with this woman much, much longer than she told me.  So she’s a liar now as well. 

I have blocked her and will now concentrate on my friends, family, and activities.  I have a good full life. She filled a deep void in my life that I felt after my partner of 38 years died in 2012.  I was looking for that love again and hoped beyond hope that I could fix this woman who professed her deep, deep love for me but treated me poorly.  I always knew what I was doing. I have a lot of insight into myself but my life philosophy is this:  if I could survive the death of my life-Long love, I can survive the trials, tribulations, and hurt that a new relationship will bring.

And I will survive this one too.  I am a strong person who had a weakness for this particular woman.  Yesterday’s conversation left a very bad taste in my mouth for her.  There’s just no going back now.  I know that.