PART 2: We broke up a week ago -- is there any hope left?

[alexvidaa]

MODERATION NOTE:  This thread was split from https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329487.0

Also somewhat of a mini update:

After what seemed to be a threat (an empty one nonetheless), my parents were extremely upset about that. I was and still am too. Apparently, my mom ended up texting him to let him know it's not okay to threaten me because he knows I'm truly not doing anything to him that warrants that. She told him that there's no need to get nasty either because we love/loved each other and have a good connection.

He responded with the fact that he doesn't want to hurt me, and that he wouldn't ever want to actually threaten me because he's not like that... .my mom replied and told him that he shouldn't be burning bridges either because you never know what will happen in the future and that she hopes at the very least we could remain friends. He said he hoped so too, and said "Sorry for hurting."

I'm not sure where that information can help or if it does at all. Do you think he was lying to her about the threat, or do you think that he really has no idea that he truly threatened me? Also I think it's weird that he said that he wouldn't hurt me, but yet apologizes for hurting (what I assume to be) me. Also... .interesting how he apologized to her for hurting me, but cannot apologize to me? What do you guys think of this one?
 
It's weird because this somehow made me feel better. Maybe he isn't ready or isn't capable of talking to me face to face yet because of how he handled things. It still isn't that great though because he said he didn't want to be with me, and I guess I have to take that at face value too.

Also I'd just like to take a moment to say thank you to each and every one of you that have replied to me and continue to. It really means a lot that you're helping me think through this and get through this. Lots of my friends really don't get it and I feel like half of the time I get judged, but it helps me a lot to know I can come here and at least try to make sense of things, and if I can't, then I have some advice from all of you. I really appreciate it.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[alexvidaa]

at the end of the day, i think there are a lot of lessons to take to future relationships.

you mentioned this is your first, do i have that right? its really hard to have anything to compare that to, our behavior, their behavior, what we want in/out of a relationship, etc.

considering all of these things will help you whether he comes back, or if you choose to move on.

It's my first really in depth one. First truly long term one.

A thing a lot of my friends have in common who have moved on to a relationship with another person after the first long term one that broke their heart is that they find that they compare their new person with their old person. Maybe it comes from a part of you that will always love the other person. I don't know, it' just so hard to process being with another person right now. How do you know when you're truly "over" someone or have "moved on?"

[once removed]

to reverse a breakup is to stop making things worse on our end in the short term, but also in order to rebuild it on a healthy foundation, to identify healthier skills, tools, coping, in the long term. one of the lessons we teach here emphasizes giving space.

a lot of people in "reversing a breakup" mode are flooded with pain, even desperate. in that mode, in trying to stop the pain, and trying to revive the attachment, we can do some self defeating, self sabotaging things, like over pursuing.

why is this an important lesson? for one, its counter to our goals - it pushes the other person away. as ive said, if we dont respect the walls someone erects, they will build higher ones. two, it puts us in a weak, and not attractive position. i did it throughout high school. wore my heart on my sleeve, over pursued. probably, if id kept cool, some of those relationships would have reconciled. thats history, lesson learned and ive moved on, but i still kick myself sometimes when i look back on it.

why is this an important, applicable lesson in your circumstance? if you look back, its a repeating theme in your relationship. i say this gently, and to help: with each request for space, before and after the relationship ended, you tend to respond by not respecting it, and over pursuing. as a result, he erects higher walls. i dont think that is about BPD. i think it hurts you a lot, and in that hurt, it is tempting to see him as the cause of that pain, but its missing the forest through the trees... .the parts we need to see in the long term if we want to get the relationship in healthy territory. the ways in which we contribute to the dysfunction.

now in the short term, you can stop, and do nothing, and if this can be repaired, it will help in the short term. i think if the two of you got back tomorrow, or if you took it slowly like you mention, this dynamic would still exist, and along with your hurt and resentment, things would blow up very quickly, and your hurt would be even greater than it is presently.

this being your first in depth relationship, a lot of what im saying here is hard to see and understand even if one is open to it. it took me years to see my own self sabotaging, my own dysfunction, the ways in which i contributed to the breakdown of my relationship, all of them really.

i think two things will help you a great deal. work with the members here in their threads. its a lot easier to see where others are steering things in an unhelpful, or unhealthy direction. on the flip side, it moves us into problem solving mode. it gets us applying the lessons we are learning and encouraging others in, to ourselves. its one reason i continue to do it to this day.

the other is that i would encourage you to look into attachment styles and attachment style theory. they play a huge role in our relationships... .they can powerfully dictate our actions. we can learn tools, and skills, and management, and grow, which can take us light years ahead in our current relationship, or in future ones, because attachment styles are not pathological or permanent. for example, in most of my relationships, i displayed an insecure attachment style, while with my uBPDex, i displayed an avoidant one.

where do you see yourself in this: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=279028.0

[alexvidaa]

a lot of people in "reversing a breakup" mode are flooded with pain, even desperate. in that mode, in trying to stop the pain, and trying to revive the attachment, we can do some self defeating, self sabotaging things, like over pursuing.

why is this an important, applicable lesson in your circumstance? if you look back, its a repeating theme in your relationship. i say this gently, and to help: with each request for space, before and after the relationship ended, you tend to respond by not respecting it, and over pursuing. as a result, he erects higher walls. i dont think that is about BPD. i think it hurts you a lot, and in that hurt, it is tempting to see him as the cause of that pain, but its missing the forest through the trees... .the parts we need to see in the long term if we want to get the relationship in healthy territory. the ways in which we contribute to the dysfunction.

Its a hard thing to wrap my head around. I always thought that my love and understanding could give him a safe place and that would help. It's what he used to say was his favorite thing about our relationship: how he could let down his walls because he knew I loved him unconditionally. I think you're right though, the harder i tried to wedge myself in because I was trying to help him or what I thought was to help us, it made him resist harder. it's in my nature to try to help anyone and everyone, especially those close to me. I think that probably contributes to dysfunction because my anxiety from uncertainty leads me to want to fix things as soon as possible, that way the anxiety can stop.

now in the short term, you can stop, and do nothing, and if this can be repaired, it will help in the short term. i think if the two of you got back tomorrow, or if you took it slowly like you mention, this dynamic would still exist, and along with your hurt and resentment, things would blow up very quickly, and your hurt would be even greater than it is presently.

So with this, you're saying for the long term it's better to leave things alone? Is there any time in the future that is appropriate to initiate contact if he has not?

where do you see yourself in this: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=279028.0

Interestingly enough I have secure attachment. The relationship however started to really shift my attachment because of the constant ups and downs with idealization vs devaluation and not sure what expectations I was being held against. So in that aspect, I think i shifted my attachment towards being more anxious. I did not play games, always told him how I was feeling, and I tried to do nice things for him. Everything else was pretty much on point. I think I noticed this change in the summer. I knew that I wasn't being treated the best but was afraid to lose him, and to lose everything we worked for. To lose the special connection we had and I know probably still have if we ever saw each other face to face again. I don't know when and how that shift occurred, as I always thought that attachment style was forever.

From reading the rest, it seems like he's a mix between anxious and avoidant, with him being more avoidant than anxious. The anxious avoidant trap seems relevant here, especially towards the end, and what happened in the previous break up. Is there hope here with that? or is that a recipe for disaster?

honestly with everything that's happened, IF and only IF we somehow got down a road of wanting to try again, I think it might be good to go to a few counseling sessions together to be able to talk this out. He doesn't like to listen to me but he listens to outside sources

[alexvidaa]

Another mini update:

I received the box with my stuff back! (YAY?) not really! In fact, it's infuriated me.

While I did get SOME of the things back that I requested, I was sent back other things that I did not. I was sent small gifts back that I had gotten him over two years--however, it seems that he's kept the ones that he liked. The worst thing he sent back was actually HIS. he had a box that he put all of our stuff in--pictures, letters, polaroids, etc. This was his! He sent it back to ME! Right before I left the city after the whole initial fiasco, I told him to keep the key necklace I had given him (Over 1 year ago we exchanged little trinkets to show that we would always have a part of each other. He gave me a green lantern ring and i gave him the necklace). Although I realized it now that I personally forgot the ring at his apartment I suppose, I still told him to keep it because it meant a part of me would always love him and that it was a gift and I wanted him to have it (also bc wth am I supposed to do with it now? Give it to the next guy? LOL). Also, I requested lots of my workout powders back that cost over 100 dollars (to me, thats a lot of money)--things like collagen powders, protein powders, and pre-workout. Those things were NOT in the box, yet revenge give-back presents were?

I think I'm just about done now. It seems like this is all power play to try to continue to hurt me. If he truly didn't want that stuff anymore, he could've just thrown it away.

[once removed]

In fact, it's infuriated me.
... .
It seems like this is all power play to try to continue to hurt me

the "exchange of belongings" is never a fun process, and youre understandably cheesed off.

sadly, its not uncommon when a partner throws in some belongings (like returning gifts) that hurt. its immature. it does hurt. its hard to say if it was done intentionally to hurt you or just done in a hurry, but it usually says something about where the person is emotionally.

there is a lot of anger and resentment between the two of you, as there tends to be. give this some time to settle down. let some of it out (not at him), breathe, sleep on it, the whole nine yards. the immediate anger and hurt will subside.

[Radcliff]

That was great advice from once removed to look at attachment styles.  There's a lot to that for many of us.

What did you think of your mom reaching out to him on your behalf?

RC

[alexvidaa]

sadly, its not uncommon when a partner throws in some belongings (like returning gifts) that hurt. its immature. it does hurt. its hard to say if it was done intentionally to hurt you or just done in a hurry, but it usually says something about where the person is emotionally.

there is a lot of anger and resentment between the two of you, as there tends to be. give this some time to settle down. let some of it out (not at him), breathe, sleep on it, the whole nine yards. the immediate anger and hurt will subside.

what emotional place is that? (asking sincerely here).

It's not even an exchange at this point. He's tried to box me out and ice me out so I can just be stuck with all of the stuff. The box he made has 2+ years full of memories, like I stated before, was his. There's no reason to send it to me except to be hurtful. I really thought that maybe he wasn't trying to be hurtful before I got the box because he told my mom he didn't want to hurt me. But honestly, why else would he send me our box full of memories that was specifically his? Deliberately sending back the things (the necklace) we BOTH said we wanted the other to have? That's not done out of accident IMO.

[alexvidaa]

That was great advice from once removed to look at attachment styles.  There's a lot to that for many of us.

What did you think of your mom reaching out to him on your behalf?

RC

It was a good thing to look at! It made me realize that the relationship had made me shift attachment styles, and that's not good!

I don't know how to feel about that. On one hand it seemed like she was trying to hold him accountable for threatening me (her trying to be protective) and usually, when he was not receptive of me, he always talked to her. She's had very long conversations with him before and is a therapist so she tried to help him with his anxiety and other issues when he was in very low places. She's told him before that even if we broke up, that she'd still be there for him because honestly his parents are not parents. I'm not surprised she contacted him because they usually do contact each other.

On the other hand, it feels like she's taking his side by being in contact with him after all of the hurt he put me through.

[Radcliff]

I was going to offer some thoughts on your mom's interactions with him but realized I ought to make sure I fully understand first.  Can you tell us some detail about the threats he made?

RC

[alexvidaa]

I was going to offer some thoughts on your mom's interactions with him but realized I ought to make sure I fully understand first.  Can you tell us some detail about the threats he made?

RC

He said that if I were to ever contact him again, that he would report me and start an investigation at his university's department of harassment and discrimination. He continued on that by doing that, I would be required by medical schools or law schools to report that on my applications. He knows how important getting into medical school for me is, and sending empty threats with legal action to jeopardize my future, she found that unacceptable.

It's more upsetting because I'm not harassing him whatsoever. In fact, I had WAY more contact with him in January/February when we broke up the first time!

I found out from a friend that technically ANYONE can launch an investigation against anyone and it shows up on a record. Whether it shows up with or without evidence doesn't matter. So I suppose if he tries to do that, it would be unsupported because he has ZERO evidence of harassment.

[Radcliff]

OK, thanks for the detail.  If one of my daughters broke up with a boyfriend I'd known and supported, it would be a quick pivot for me to not talk to him suddenly.  But it would be important for me to step back and let my daughter handle things.  There are two related issues here.  One is the need for you to develop your independence as a young adult, and the other is the potential to create a Karpman Drama Triangle.  This is totally not the crime of the century, and as a parent I  get that your mom's heart was in a protective place, potentially both for you as well as for his maturation, but it's good to also observe the potential pitfalls.  I'm not saying you even need to mention this to your mom, though, it's just food for thought.  How is your attachment with her; do you feel you have enough emotional freedom to operate independently?

RC

[alexvidaa]

There are two related issues here.  One is the need for you to develop your independence as a young adult, and the other is the potential to create a Karpman Drama Triangle.  This is totally not the crime of the century, and as a parent I  get that your mom's heart was in a protective place, potentially both for you as well as for his maturation, but it's good to also observe the potential pitfalls.  I'm not saying you even need to mention this to your mom, though, it's just food for thought.  How is your attachment with her; do you feel you have enough emotional freedom to operate independently?

I see where you're coming from. I have a secure attachment with her for sure. I'm also very close to her and as I've gotten older she's become a confidant and a close friend and mentor. In situations like this, she tries her best to act as a mediator, and she's been in jobs her whole life where that's been one of her main roles. I'm usually a very stubborn person so she's learned to give me lots of freedom to be independent! And in other cases where she's tried to mediate conflicts, it usually is extremely helpful.

[once removed]

it would be unsupported because he has ZERO evidence of harassment.

alexvidaa,

you made multiple attempts at contact, went through his friend, and tried to get into his private facebook account.

i dont point that out to kick you while youre down, but that from his perspective, it feels like harassment, and its intrusive. if we dont respect someones walls, they will build higher ones. if they feel cornered, they will lash out. ask yourself how you would feel if the situation was flipped.

your mother contacting him is another escalation (one i understand you did not encourage). his response was to build higher walls. to escalate from wanting space, to "making things go away". and sometimes a person will take a hurtful route in doing that... .thats where he is emotionally.

and its understandable and okay to be hurt by that, by all of it. the problem is, if you direct that at him, try to get in touch directly or indirectly, youre going to see him build those walls higher, its going to be increasingly painful for you, and its going to reduce the window of possibility of reconciling your relationship.

this is hard stuff, excruciating, i know. ive been shut out too. ive made similar moves in response where each time the rejection was more hurtful. hes not going to be of any help here. there are healthy outlets for your pain. we are listening.

[alexvidaa]

you made multiple attempts at contact, went through his friend, and tried to get into his private facebook account.

i dont point that out to kick you while youre down, but that from his perspective, it feels like harassment, and its intrusive. if we dont respect someones walls, they will build higher ones. if they feel cornered, they will lash out. ask yourself how you would feel if the situation was flipped.

I understand where you're coming from. In my perspective, I did my best to leave him alone and tried my best to not contact him. We never really talked about what the expectation was for after I left, as in if we would talk again or something. I assumed we would, but I'm just not sure what he thought. clearly, his was a complete NC. I was left super confused and only contacted the friend because it was previously okay to. Only thing that I regret is the fb thing.

He just must be highly sensitive right now to any contact from me. How long does it typically take for someone to bring their walls back down?

your mother contacting him is another escalation (one i understand you did not encourage). his response was to build higher walls. to escalate from wanting space, to "making things go away". and sometimes a person will take a hurtful route in doing that... .thats where he is emotionally.

Interestingly enough I feel like he brought his walls back down with her. He sent the box full of stuff before she talked to him. Although I'm not sure if he was being sincere with her or not. He usually always is. However, I understand that all of the events before that escalated things in that way and I understand maybe that's why he reacted poorly.
 

and its understandable and okay to be hurt by that, by all of it. the problem is, if you direct that at him, try to get in touch directly or indirectly, youre going to see him build those walls higher, its going to be increasingly painful for you, and its going to reduce the window of possibility of reconciling your relationship.

At this point, reconciling seems impossible, doesn't it?

[Radcliff]

I see where you're coming from. I have a secure attachment with her for sure. I'm also very close to her and as I've gotten older she's become a confidant and a close friend and mentor. In situations like this, she tries her best to act as a mediator, and she's been in jobs her whole life where that's been one of her main roles. I'm usually a very stubborn person so she's learned to give me lots of freedom to be independent! And in other cases where she's tried to mediate conflicts, it usually is extremely helpful.

You know your situation better than any of us out here on the Internet.  That's great that you've got a strong relationship with your mom and trust her.  The drama triangle is a super useful thing to be aware of, because it can sometimes come into play even when we're dealing with trusted actors (this is mostly an advertisement for drama triangle awareness going forward).

He just must be highly sensitive right now to any contact from me. How long does it typically take for someone to bring their walls back down?

There's no such thing as typical.  Your pwBPD is unique, as is everyone's.  And your unique pwBPD is in a situation that he hasn't been in before with you.  The only thing that is certain is that it is longer than you want it to be ;)  The safest thing to do is to wait for some kind of bid from him.

At this point, reconciling seems impossible, doesn't it?

No outcome would be surprising here.  Which reminds me about something I was going to say about embracing the questions.  Sure we want answers, but think of it as a test where you have plenty of time, and it's the first few minutes where you're consciously reading every question, drinking them in, and not pressuring yourself yet to have the answers.  You don't have to forego answers forever, just for now

RC

[alexvidaa]

.
There's no such thing as typical.  Your pwBPD is unique, as is everyone's.  And your unique pwBPD is in a situation that he hasn't been in before with you.  The only thing that is certain is that it is longer than you want it to be ;)  The safest thing to do is to wait for some kind of bid from him.

Haha you’re right, it’s definitely longer than I want! It’s agonizing waiting. And from what I’ve seen on here from others, it could be months! How do you deal with that?

No outcome would be surprising here.  Which reminds me about something I was going to say about embracing the questions.  Sure we want answers, but think of it as a test where you have plenty of time, and it's the first few minutes where you're consciously reading every question, drinking them in, and not pressuring yourself yet to have the answers.  You don't have to forego answers forever, just for now

I hope you’re right about the outcome. I’m afraid he’s trying to go out and see new people already I’m not even sure how he can do that. I’m not even ready to think about going on a date or see other people. If he’s trying to see other people is that an even worse sign?

[once removed]

He just must be highly sensitive right now to any contact from me. How long does it typically take for someone to bring their walls back down?

there has to be some combination of resentment fading (its high right now), regret for how things ended (i think you can bet on that), incentive (he weighs the pros and cons of reaching out or has some compelling need), and trust (that things would go well and not escalate).

resentment is very high right now. i suspect theres already some regret for how things ended. id bet on it growing as resentment fades; it does in most people. regret is not always enough incentive, and it isnt trust, but it can be a catalyst, and it can grow as resentment fades, or at least outweigh it. incentive is a tricky part. sometimes even when resentment fades and regret grows, a person determines its best to let things be. for example, i could easily speak to my ex now, but i wouldnt. trust is pretty damaged right now. theres very little you can do to affect that, other than to do nothing, to give space. that, over time, signals to a person that its safe to emerge, so to speak.

in my far from professional, but human nature oriented guess, 1-3 months would be a reasonable amount of time for the damage to be minimized and resentment to fade.

[Radcliff]

I hope you’re right about the outcome. I’m afraid he’s trying to go out and see new people already I’m not even sure how he can do that. I’m not even ready to think about going on a date or see other people. If he’s trying to see other people is that an even worse sign?

The fact that you are taking it slow and not thinking about other people yet is protective and healthy.  pwBPD can be more impulsive and have more difficulty managing their emotions.  He might date someone, decide he doesn't like them, and swing back to you.  One can go nuts trying to predict what will happen.  The surest bet, as hard as it is, is to concentrate on living a healthy single lifestyle where you're not holding your breath waiting on his next action.  OK, I know that seems next to impossible, but hopefully it will get a bit easier with time, and it will only happen if you're working on it.

I vividly remember BPD relationship turbulence when I was your age, and it was no fun.  I'm sorry you are going through it.

RC

[alexvidaa]

there has to be some combination of resentment fading (its high right now), regret for how things ended (i think you can bet on that), incentive (he weighs the pros and cons of reaching out or has some compelling need), and trust (that things would go well and not escalate).

resentment is very high right now. i suspect theres already some regret for how things ended. id bet on it growing as resentment fades; it does in most people. regret is not always enough incentive, and it isnt trust, but it can be a catalyst, and it can grow as resentment fades, or at least outweigh it. incentive is a tricky part. sometimes even when resentment fades and regret grows, a person determines its best to let things be. for example, i could easily speak to my ex now, but i wouldnt. trust is pretty damaged right now. theres very little you can do to affect that, other than to do nothing, to give space. that, over time, signals to a person that its safe to emerge, so to speak.

in my far from professional, but human nature oriented guess, 1-3 months would be a reasonable amount of time for the damage to be minimized and resentment to fade.

everything you said makes sense. It's interesting because I feel like I should have way more resentment than I do, and maybe when the pain goes away, maybe i'll feel resentment, so the time and space will be good for me too. It's hard for me to imagine that he resents me more than I resent him right now, because in my perspective, I haven't done anything as bad to him as he has to me, but I suppose things to him might seem bigger than they actually are.

even if the resentment faded, that wouldn't necessarily mean he'd reach out in that time right? What are the signs that someone would look for signaling that it is safe to emerge? What would be signs of trust? How would those things even come out if two people hadn't been speaking for a while?

[alexvidaa]

The fact that you are taking it slow and not thinking about other people yet is protective and healthy.  pwBPD can be more impulsive and have more difficulty managing their emotions.  He might date someone, decide he doesn't like them, and swing back to you.  One can go nuts trying to predict what will happen. 

It's frustrating because we are broken up but I still feel jealous about it. And bad because it makes it seem like he must not have been ever committed to the relationship if he's pursuing others so fast. I thought that maybe he was jumping straight in to try to fill the void? I'm not sure... .thoughts?
Is the swing back and forth to other people the "recycling" so to speak that people mention on here?

The surest bet, as hard as it is, is to concentrate on living a healthy single lifestyle where you're not holding your breath waiting on his next action.  OK, I know that seems next to impossible, but hopefully it will get a bit easier with time, and it will only happen if you're working on it.

I vividly remember BPD relationship turbulence when I was your age, and it was no fun.  I'm sorry you are going through it.

It's what I'm trying to do. I guess this is where the "embrace uncertainty" comes into play? I'm trying to focus on myself and my future career. I keep telling myself that education can NEVER get up and leave me, but a man can! LOL. Then maybe if he ever unblocks me or attempts contact we can see where it goes.

The turbulence trauma is real! Most of my friends really don't understand what it's like being in a relationship with someone with BPD. They don't get why I can't just think of it as done or how I could still love him. In some ways, the BPD relationship is SO addicting and my body didn't even realize it until now. The highs are SO high and intense and amazing, but the lows are a killer. And then you'll be picked up back by a high again making it all seem worth it. So now that I'm stuck in that cycle and I'm finally out of it, I almost feel lost and compelled to jump back in, even though I can't.

[Radcliff]

It's frustrating because we are broken up but I still feel jealous about it. And bad because it makes it seem like he must not have been ever committed to the relationship if he's pursuing others so fast. I thought that maybe he was jumping straight in to try to fill the void? I'm not sure... .thoughts?
Is the swing back and forth to other people the "recycling" so to speak that people mention on here?

I've come to believe that all of the highs are real, that our pwBPD are genuine and as committed as they could be in those highs.  At least, that felt like the case for me.  The downside is that my pwBPD was just as genuine during the low times.  I can't change a genuine feeling nearly that fast, but she can.  It can leave your head spinning.  "Recycling" is more about what happens between the two people.  Having our pwBPD see another when we are broken up with them is a twist that happens reasonably often, especially in younger BPD relationships, but many times it does not.

It's what I'm trying to do. I guess this is where the "embrace uncertainty" comes into play? I'm trying to focus on myself and my future career. I keep telling myself that education can NEVER get up and leave me, but a man can! LOL. Then maybe if he ever unblocks me or attempts contact we can see where it goes.

LOL that's funny, but true.  That investment in yourself is critical at this stage in your life.  As the years pass, the demands of relationships and family increase, so now is the time to invest in you.

The turbulence trauma is real! Most of my friends really don't understand what it's like being in a relationship with someone with BPD. They don't get why I can't just think of it as done or how I could still love him. In some ways, the BPD relationship is SO addicting and my body didn't even realize it until now. The highs are SO high and intense and amazing, but the lows are a killer. And then you'll be picked up back by a high again making it all seem worth it. So now that I'm stuck in that cycle and I'm finally out of it, I almost feel lost and compelled to jump back in, even though I can't.

Yes, it can really suck us in.  That is why I was saying earlier that it's important to make sure to pause and reflect before recommitting to make sure that we are being intentional.  Learning to pause and reflect, whether a few seconds in a particular situation, or a few days or weeks for a big life choice, is an immensely useful life skill.

RC

[alexvidaa]

I've come to believe that all of the highs are real, that our pwBPD are genuine and as committed as they could be in those highs.  At least, that felt like the case for me.  The downside is that my pwBPD was just as genuine during the low times.  I can't change a genuine feeling nearly that fast, but she can.  It can leave your head spinning.  "Recycling" is more about what happens between the two people.  Having our pwBPD see another when we are broken up with them is a twist that happens reasonably often, especially in younger BPD relationships, but many times it does not.

It's hard for my brain to wrap my head around the thought that those thoughts are genuine. It make sense because fear is real, and as far as I can understand, the super lows are due to central fear? My feelings are pretty constant over time, and once I commit to something, that's it, I'm doing it! So being in a relationship for me is like yes, let's do this, and i guess for him its not depending on what's going on in his head at the time.

So i shouldn't be surprised if he starts seeing other people?
I heard tonight that sometimes the meaner someone acts, the more pain they usually are in (if you haven't done anything awful to warrant that behavior). I'm wondering if the same thing is here? But then again, why would he break up with me then if he's truly hurting right now, and then not reach out?

Yes, it can really suck us in.  That is why I was saying earlier that it's important to make sure to pause and reflect before recommitting to make sure that we are being intentional.  Learning to pause and reflect, whether a few seconds in a particular situation, or a few days or weeks for a big life choice, is an immensely useful life skill.

The more and more time that goes by, the more I realize that I need time. Especially after what he has done to me. Maybe to him he thinks those reactions are normal or not a big deal, but to me they were. I think the old relationship needs to die and be over with for anything to start again. And that requires time and his commitment to at least trying to better himself.

On another different note, he and my mom are meeting up... .apparently he can meet up and talk with her and exchange some things but he cannot do it with me. He wants the picture/memory box back. He said it'd be hard for him to meet with her but he wants to. Maybe it sounds weird but I really think he loved her like his own mom too. anyways... .any insight into this one?

[Radcliff]

It's hard for my brain to wrap my head around the thought that those thoughts are genuine. It make sense because fear is real, and as far as I can understand, the super lows are due to central fear? My feelings are pretty constant over time, and once I commit to something, that's it, I'm doing it! So being in a relationship for me is like yes, let's do this, and i guess for him its not depending on what's going on in his head at the time.

There is a lot going on with BPD, so simple explanations are not always available.  One aspect of what may be going on with a pwBPD is an overactive amygdala, the part of the brain responsible for fear responses.  pwBPD often have fear-driven behaviors, and may appear more fearful in a given situation than us "nons" feel is justified.

So i shouldn't be surprised if he starts seeing other people?
I heard tonight that sometimes the meaner someone acts, the more pain they usually are in (if you haven't done anything awful to warrant that behavior). I'm wondering if the same thing is here? But then again, why would he break up with me then if he's truly hurting right now, and then not reach out?

I wouldn't be surprised at anything.  What types of behavior are you referring to as "mean?"  That's a big bucket, and could encompass behaviors driven by anger, fear, revenge, a need to be in control, etc.  Getting specific about the behaviors would be helpful for discussion, if you want to.  One of the sad aspects of BPD is that it sometimes seems to make our pwBPD behave in ways that are self-defeating, denying them the very things they want.  In my personal experience, turning against the "non" (me) in a time of need for the pwBPD is one of these.

The more and more time that goes by, the more I realize that I need time. Especially after what he has done to me. Maybe to him he thinks those reactions are normal or not a big deal, but to me they were. I think the old relationship needs to die and be over with for anything to start again. And that requires time and his commitment to at least trying to better himself.

When we are in a very close relationship with a pwBPD we can lose touch with our own personal reference for that we believe is reasonable, and our values in a relationship.  I'm really glad to hear that you are working to stay in touch with your own values.  That bodes well for you, whether you end up rekindling the relationship or moving on.

On another different note, he and my mom are meeting up... .apparently he can meet up and talk with her and exchange some things but he cannot do it with me. He wants the picture/memory box back. He said it'd be hard for him to meet with her but he wants to. Maybe it sounds weird but I really think he loved her like his own mom too. anyways... .any insight into this one?

That's nice that some more things will be exchanged.  Is that the memory box that he gave you, that you wanted him to keep?  How do you feel about him asking for it back?  It makes sense that he might feel safer with your mom (a mother figure) than you (since the situation between you is complicated).  Have you and your mom talked through what her role is in the meeting?

RC

[alexvidaa]

I wouldn't be surprised at anything.  What types of behavior are you referring to as "mean?"  That's a big bucket, and could encompass behaviors driven by anger, fear, revenge, a need to be in control, etc.  Getting specific about the behaviors would be helpful for discussion, if you want to.  One of the sad aspects of BPD is that it sometimes seems to make our pwBPD behave in ways that are self-defeating, denying them the very things they want.  In my personal experience, turning against the "non" (me) in a time of need for the pwBPD is one of these.

Mean behavior IMO like making things worse than they have to be. Talking behind my back to turn people against me, sending back things to try to hurt me, saying really hurtful things to me that probably weren't true/things he knew would hurt me but decided to use it against me anyways... .these things are just so hard to deal with because it's out of no where. you never know when something will go off, and I'm left to deal with the emotional explosion while they just deal with it and and don't feel it.

That's nice that some more things will be exchanged.  Is that the memory box that he gave you, that you wanted him to keep?  How do you feel about him asking for it back?  It makes sense that he might feel safer with your mom (a mother figure) than you (since the situation between you is complicated).  Have you and your mom talked through what her role is in the meeting?

Yes, that is the one. I'm not sure if him asking for it back is a good sign or not... .? But honestly, after the events, maybe not ?

He ended up chickening out of meeting my mom because it was probably too hard to see her face to face. She brought him his things to the door and he pretended that he wasn't there. He left my stuff with a front desk lobby man we found out. After all of it, he still didn't give me back one of the things I asked for: expensive pre-workout. I texted to ask for it back and he said he drank it all (literally IMPOSSIBLE! bc there was so much of it) because he was trying to not drink coffee? (doesn't make sense either). I think he was just avoiding me, which is understandable but still frustrating because why not just give me my stuff back?

I ended up texting with him the night before to try to sort out what we were going to do with the stuff. I asked if he would feel comfortable meeting face to face just for closure to make peace with the situation. I process things by talking it out and talking about future or no future directions, and he's just the opposite. So while doing the whole "outta sight outta mind" thing might work for him, my stuff is always in my mind so I have to just plunge right into it to sort out my emotions. Not surprised that he rejected that idea, but at first he said he didt want to meet with me because he thought i would physically hurt him (I've absolutely never have been violent to this man nor to anyone in my life... .all i can think of maybe it's projection of his past experiences with bullies that actually hurt him?) and then later said that i could not change his mind about meeting because all meeting up would do for him would remind him of sadness and broken dreams. During all of this he said i could text him my questions, which was nice of him considering everything. From my questions I asked, I got this from his answers: He said he stopped loving me once I moved in with him because he felt suffocated from the close living space. He said he wanted to break up with me three weeks before he did. He considered a break but thought that I would not understand his want or need to be alone, and additionally because he didn't want to have to text me everyday or plan his day/life around mine anymore. He said that if we were meant to be then he wouldn't have feelings of wanting to be alone. He said the suffocating environment we were end made him feel out of love with me but apparently somehow "tried" feeling that way again. He said that he was now trying to make friends and stop being a bad person to everyone. Despite not willing to meet up because of feelings of sadness and broken dreams, that he has 100% moved on, doesn't want to go back to the past.

I don't really know how to feel about all of it. In past times we've broken up, he's gone to isolating himself from me to try to "get better" or deal with life stress... .because he grew up alone and i think it's a coping mechanism. It makes me sad because Im not sure if he knows how to process emotions because to me it makes sense that if he was feeling agitated, that he would grow annoyed, resentful, and of course not feel as in love. Of course he would feel like he wants to just be alone for a while. But he doesn't see it like that. IF any one of his emotions changes it seems to me like he doesn't even try to process them or think about why he feels them. HE just acts based on the fearful emotions. I tried to explain these things to him, but when I did it's almost like he didn't want to confront that. I don't think that he's 100% moved on if he cant meet me face to face because he feels sadness and broken dreams. I asked if he didnt want to see me because he felt pain from that and he rejected that too. The answers seemed to in places contradict themselves so I'm just not even sure. He said that he never ever wanted to see me again via text whenever I got to the apartment to drop off his stuff. Not once did he say sorry or anything like that or take responsibility for anything. I didnt push that though.

Now I'm really feeling hopeless. Do you think that he's just not ready to talk about it/hasn't processed it well because he's trying to just omit everything... .or is it really for real like never again? I just don't know. If our strong connection and everything like that is going to be reduced to a lurking Facebook friend relationship then I don't think I want to be a part of it. It seems so disrespectful to the genuine and deep connection I know we have, and part of me thinks that he knows that. Last time he said he didnt want to see me because he knows he couldnt resist me because he knows the connection would last forever.

[macarena]

Now I'm really feeling hopeless. Do you think that he's just not ready to talk about it/hasn't processed it well because he's trying to just omit everything... .or is it really for real like never again? I just don't know. If our strong connection and everything like that is going to be reduced to a lurking Facebook friend relationship then I don't think I want to be a part of it. It seems so disrespectful to the genuine and deep connection I know we have, and part of me thinks that he knows that. Last time he said he didnt want to see me because he knows he couldnt resist me because he knows the connection would last forever.

I’m sorry it feels hopeless for you. I certainly know the feeling.
One thing a friend once told me is that nothing is ever final. And that’s true, life goes on and things change. There is no way of saying, now, how things will evolve. He might reconsider and process things in some way and come to a different conclusion, or he might not.
I don’t think a deep connection between people ever goes away, but the connection is not the only factor a relationship is built upon, there are other factors that can be damaging. Probably both of you need time, each in their own way (I’ve come to this conclusion during the low contact period with my person, which I’m currently going through— he needs time, but I need this time too). If you ever were to get back together, it’s hard to build something new from a point of hurt and resentment. He needs time to process things and you need it to heal and try to focus on yourself and learn.

[Radcliff]

Regarding the "meanness," yes, I found in my situation that my pwBPD acted in ways that seemed to respond to her fears and pain and it felt like often she did that with no regard to mine.  Which is of course... .painful.

You process feelings and situations the way many of us do.  It's natural to want to talk through things, though that doesn't seem to be the way he feels comfortable wanting to do it.  Your description of some of the things he said contradicting some of the other things felt familiar to me.  When I see contradictions like this, my tendency is to work harder at mutual understanding, to work until everything makes sense as part of a coherent whole.  I've had poor success doing this with my pwBPD, and sometimes have made things worse.

You worked hard to see if you could reach mutual understanding with him.  What was your primary mission in talking to him?

RC

[alexvidaa]

I’m sorry it feels hopeless for you. I certainly know the feeling.
One thing a friend once told me is that nothing is ever final. And that’s true, life goes on and things change. There is no way of saying, now, how things will evolve. He might reconsider and process things in some way and come to a different conclusion, or he might not.
I don’t think a deep connection between people ever goes away, but the connection is not the only factor a relationship is built upon, there are other factors that can be damaging. Probably both of you need time, each in their own way (I’ve come to this conclusion during the low contact period with my person, which I’m currently going through— he needs time, but I need this time too). If you ever were to get back together, it’s hard to build something new from a point of hurt and resentment. He needs time to process things and you need it to heal and try to focus on yourself and learn.

It feels so final right now though. I know I need my time too but it'd at least be nice to say like hey, we don't wanna talk right now because the wounds are fresh but maybe lets try to process this together in a healthy way in a month or two? We were each other's first EVERYTHING... .first love, first sexual partner, first "love of my life," type of thing. It was so special because we fell so hard for each other because we had the innocence of not being hurt, not knowing the games people play with each other. It was such a genuine and child like love (in the way of just so so pure and truly enjoying each others company). It KILLS me to see it diminish to what he wants which is a lurking Facebook friendship I'm sure.

I think its hard because he might not be in a place to talk about it right now. he wants to not ever think about it but tbh i don't think that ever works. My roommate/best friend who I'm sure also has BPD (LOL i guess i just attract these people) did that after her 2 year break up after her boyfriend cheated. It was bad because she never really got over it, and I still don't think she is even after 2.5 years later. I'm thinking maybe... .just maybe he will realize it. But even if he does, I don't know if he'd have the courage to tell me so. When he told me he was trying to be a better person to other people it infuriated me because like WTH? why can't you be a good person to the person who loves you the most yet he treats me the worst?

I need time to process but I feel like I'm missing a piece of the processing without having the closure of face to face. I hope I can get it sometime. I'm going to be in the city a few more times in the next couple of months so MAYBE I can try to reach out after a month has passed? IDK. but i don't know if that will be enough time. Something will crack him though because it always does. That's another why he doesn't want to see me I think, because he knows he can't resist me and knows the connection will never die. I just cant make sense of it, of any of it. No one can.

I'm glad you're taking time for yourself and have realized it. Any success or updates with your person? 

[alexvidaa]

Regarding the "meanness," yes, I found in my situation that my pwBPD acted in ways that seemed to respond to her fears and pain and it felt like often she did that with no regard to mine.  Which is of course... .painful.

At least I know it's somewhat normal. That doesn't mean it feels normal to me, which is something I'm continuously trying to remind myself of. Trying not to take it personally. Trying to remember that right now he is probably not mentally sound because for some reason, he's chosen to take the most abrupt way of ending a relationship simply because he didn't want to live with my in a very small apartment. And now I'm being iced out forever it seems.

You process feelings and situations the way many of us do.  It's natural to want to talk through things, though that doesn't seem to be the way he feels comfortable wanting to do it.  Your description of some of the things he said contradicting some of the other things felt familiar to me.  When I see contradictions like this, my tendency is to work harder at mutual understanding, to work until everything makes sense as part of a coherent whole.  I've had poor success doing this with my pwBPD, and sometimes have made things worse.

What do you mean mutual understanding? Like talking about it together and figuring out where you both stand?
Right now, I feel like I have my half, but only have like 10% of his stuff maybe figured out. MAYBE. but it feels incomplete and I'm worried the healing will be incomplete too. as in the healing between us because I feel like we are both on opposite sides of this right now. He's trying to put his feelings in a box and store them and I'm trying to open the box and sort them out. And it makes me feel like he will always win things like this because you can't ever convince people that deal with things like that to open up. I feel like there's no way around getting shut down like that.

You worked hard to see if you could reach mutual understanding with him.  What was your primary mission in talking to him?

I was returning his things and decided to extend an olive branch to see if he'd talk or not. At this point, it wasn't even about getting back together. It was about me getting some understanding for myself for what truly happened. I feel like I'm still in a mind set of "what the heck actually happened, why did he act so abruptly, why did he end our relationship overs something that could've been fixed, why didn't he take the break when we agreed to do that, why am i completely iced out, why is he treating me like I've done bad things to him like cheating that would warrant this behavior towards me... ." The talk over text was okay. It was better than nothing I guess but at the same time I'm not sure it was all sincere. So maybe I'm back to square one. Especially with him saying he doesn't ever want to see me again and maybe wants to be friends but "at a distance" but yet probably won't unblock me ever... .so again, contradictions (lets be friends but hey I'm gonna keep u blocked?).

I'm trying to find peace. with this situation, with him, and with myself. It would be so easy if he said "I'm messed up with my mental health. this isn't you, I'm sorry it's like this right now." OK, I can deal with that! but treating me like I've screwed him over or did something awful is killing me and it feels mean. He's not the same person I fell in love with. I wanted to talk to him to find some closure and answers so I can work on forgiving him, so I can work on moving on and forward. Whether that is with or without him! I've come to realize that the relationship needs to be dead in order for us to ever get back together and actually have a healthy relationship. But with him avoiding anything that has to do with me, I don't know where I stand or where we would stand in the future.

[Radcliff]

Wow, that is a lot of firsts.  That is truly special, and it sounds so tough to have things go as they have.  When I say "mutual understanding," I'm thinking of when the two people's views of "what the heck happened" overlap by 80% or so.  Nobody's playing the victim.  Your views agree enough that the agreement helps you feel confident in your interpretation, and you can take the learning into the next situation with that confidence.  It's the healthy thing to do.  Does that describe what you were aiming for when you talked to him?  Sadly, with a BPD breakup, you may not get it.  Hanging out with folks here can provide an alternative way to reality check and process what happened.

You wondered if a month might be enough time to wait to approach him again.  Typically, best results are achieved when we let the pwBPD determine the timing.  I'm concerned that if you keep guessing the timing and reaching out, you'll continue to be disappointed.

When dealing with a tough situation involving someone else who we can't control, one coping strategy is to make a plan to get as many of our needs as possible met in ways we can control.  One need we've talked about is processing "what the heck happened?"  What other needs or wants might you have?  If you're not sure, perhaps start by saying each of the feelings you're having, and think if they lead to any needs or wants as you think about how to process them.

RC