Therapist wants me to come up with a plan

[WitzEndWife]

I want to bounce something off of you all. My uBPDh had yet another violent outburst this weekend. He got upset that I left his name off of my nieces' Xmas gifts because I wasn't sure if he wanted his name on them (since he talks nothing but trash about my sister and her husband, and takes zero interest in the kids). I figured that I would leave it up to him to decide whether he wanted to be included. Well, clearly, that was the wrong choice on my end. And, because I didn't write it on there for him, he threw an epic tantrum. He started ranting and raving, stomping around, then took a bottle of my dog's medication and smashed it all over the floor. I screamed at him to get out. He walked out for a couple of minutes. I grabbed the broom and started sweeping up all of the pills and pill dust, so that the dogs wouldn't eat them. He walked back into the house and started ranting again, then grabbed the broom out of my hands and broke it over his knee. I again screamed for him to get out. He made a strangling gesture with his hands at me, then stormed out again. He returned a second later and tried to finish cleaning up. I told him I didn't want him in the house because he was violent. He kept yelling, so I ran upstairs, where our two dogs were hiding in the bedroom, and locked myself in there. He stormed upstairs, tried the door handle. Realizing it was locked, he kicked it down, splitting the door frame. I was on the bed, crying. He stood over me and ranted and ranted. I said nothing, just cried. He said I made him break the door because I disrespected him.

Of course, as is usual, he apologized after he'd calmed down, and then expected everything to go back to normal. Like we simply had a little "tiff." I texted my therapist everything, and she says I should start thinking of my "plan" to end things.

The thing is, with this marriage, there isn't a good place to start. If I address this when he's all happy, he'll act like I'm a wicked heartless witch who hates him and is throwing him out on the street. If I address it when he's enraged or agitated, who knows what he'll do? I need help, I need examples of other people's plans, who were successful in breaking things off. What did you say? How did you present it? Was it during a "calm" moment or a rage moment?

My thinking is maybe I suggest he go be with his mom for a bit, that we take some time apart. I don't know if that will be the best thing, but it could sort of soothe the "abandonment" issue. Obviously I wouldn't implement this until after the holidays, but I need to get to a point where my safety is a priority.

[hope2727]

I am sorry you endured that extreme of an act. Please be careful. Tell people what is happening. Look up how to make a safety plan. I can tell you there is no "good" way to go ahead. You will be the bad guy no matter what. So do what you need todo to take care of yourself. He is an adult and will have to take care of himself.

[Cat Familiar]

I want to bounce something off of you all. My uBPDh had yet another violent outburst this weekend... .he threw an epic tantrum. He started ranting and raving, stomping around, then took a bottle of my dog's medication and smashed it all over the floor.

That certainly got your attention. Not in a good way.

He walked back into the house and started ranting again, then grabbed the broom out of my hands and broke it over his knee. I again screamed for him to get out. He made a strangling gesture with his hands at me, then stormed out again. He returned a second later and tried to finish cleaning up. I told him I didn't want him in the house because he was violent. He kept yelling, so I ran upstairs, where our two dogs were hiding in the bedroom, and locked myself in there. He stormed upstairs, tried the door handle. Realizing it was locked, he kicked it down, splitting the door frame. I was on the bed, crying. He stood over me and ranted and ranted. I said nothing, just cried. He said I made him break the door because I disrespected him.

I’ve been following your story for a while. I remember how you tried to support him when he began a real estate career, but he didn’t pursue leads and ultimately that plan fizzled out. What positives, if any, does he bring to the relationship?

Of course, as is usual, he apologized after he'd calmed down, and then expected everything to go back to normal. Like we simply had a little "tiff." I texted my therapist everything, and she says I should start thinking of my "plan" to end things.

The thing is, with this marriage, there isn't a good place to start. If I address this when he's all happy, he'll act like I'm a wicked heartless witch who hates him and is throwing him out on the street.

And that would be bad... .why?

If I address it when he's enraged or agitated, who knows what he'll do? I need help, I need examples of other people's plans, who were successful in breaking things off. What did you say? How did you present it? Was it during a "calm" moment or a rage moment?

You definitely don’t want to break it off when he’s enraged. It’s frightening what he’s capable of just because his name wasn’t included on a gift.

My former husband also raged. I broke it off when he was calm and he was truly shocked that I was not going to forgive him once more, but I was done. You have to be able to be perceived in an unflattering light. So what if he thinks you are a “heartless witch”?

My thinking is maybe I suggest he go be with his mom for a bit, that we take some time apart. I don't know if that will be the best thing, but it could sort of soothe the "abandonment" issue. Obviously I wouldn't implement this until after the holidays, but I need to get to a point where my safety is a priority.

He has shown signs of violence that could easily be transferred from inanimate objects to you. My ex first broke objects before he began striking me. Please talk to a DV counselor in addition to your therapist. You are at risk.  
Cat

[Cat Familiar]

WEW, if you haven’t taken th MOSAIC test, please do.

https://www.mosaicmethod.com

And let us know what your score is.

Cat

[Fian]

I don't know much about DV, but wouldn't it be safer to just leave or get a restraining order and then call him on the phone rather than trust that he will be composed when you inform him in person?  When a violent person thinks that you are leaving him for good, all bets are off on what can happen.

[AskingWhy]

Cat, thank you again for the MOSAIC link!  

WEW, my uBPD/uNPD H also has occasional rages.  He has broken objects, punched holes in walls and doors, broken glass dishes and stemware.  The pets all scatter through the house when H dysregulates.

My first priority is to get the pets safe and away from any broken glass or wood, etc.  In the past, I would weep and help H clean up the mess while he raged at me for "making" him angry.   Now, I get the pets safe, and leave H to clean up his own mess.

Cat's "end of empathy" state is what might happen to you eventually.  

I am nearing that stage myself.  Some years ago, we had an elderly, deaf, dying dog who had soiled himself in the middle of the night. H got out of bed, raged at the dog, then yanked the soiled dog bed out from under the terrified dog.  I immediate raged at H, then comforted the terrified dog.  H said he could not help himself, that he was sleep-deprived from the dog's health issues, etc. etc. which is pure rubbish.  We know even  people raging can control themselves as spousal abusers will punch a woman on the arms or areas where bruises won't show.   Raging people are IN CONTROL of themselves all through the abuse, even though they claim they aren't.

H is so ashamed of that night that he forbids me to bring it up.  Of course, I won't be ordered to keep silent about that night where he frightened an innocent, dying animal.

Blaming is a cognitive distortion.  

I know as a fact H would never rage at his infant grandchildren for crying or being fussy about sleeping--after all, they are an extension of himself via his children.  For his grandchildren, H has infinite patience, even in the face of tantrums or when the children are ill.  My H chose to rage at the dog.

WEW, please take the MOSAIC test and let us know your score.  Also read the book, "The Gift of Fear," by Gavin de Becker, the man who designed MOSAIC.  This book talks about our instincts of fear, and how we need to trust them.  You can buy this on Amazon Kindle and read it in private.

BTW, restraining orders don't work.  See the studies presented by De Becker.    

[Ozzie101]

That sounds terrifying, WEW. I echo the others in encouraging you to take the MOSAIC test. Also, please reach out to a domestic violence counselor.

My uBPDh has never physically hurt me and swears he wouldn't. Actually, his rages have been a lot better lately. But his dysregulations continue. And for while, he would do things like break objects, glasses, etc. Again, that hasn't happened in a while, but I feel like it very easily could. And a couple of weeks ago, he blocked me from leaving a room (didn't put his hands on me, but he's got 5 inches and 65 pounds on me so he didn't have to). Last week, I had my first session with a DV counselor and she was wonderful — a lot of great information. It was just a relief to talk to someone who knows something about the subject and could say "This is what this is. It's not in your head. You don't deserve it. Here's what you can do to keep yourself safe."

My MOSAIC score was a 6, by the way. Not "Get out of there now!" level, but apparently the type that often does escalate.

DV organizations can provide all kinds of help and advice (particularly when it comes to safety plans and leaving — they know the statistics and methods that have a better chance of working) and I really hope you'll reach out to them. If he's doing things like breaking down doors, doing damage to you physically isn't a far step.
 

[WitzEndWife]

WEW, if you haven’t taken th MOSAIC test, please do.

https://www.mosaicmethod.com

And let us know what your score is.

Cat

I took the test. He got a 7 out of 10, so I guess that's pretty high. You're right, I'm not getting anything out of it at this point. I don't know why I'm so afraid to be made to feel like a monster. I guess that's the power of BPD. I know I have to own my feelings and take responsibility for my own decisions. It's not like there's some magic spell over me. It sure feels like it though. I will talk with my therapist about this today.

[formflier]

Help me understand the decision not to call 911 while locked in the room and while he was busting down the door.

There are stories on these boards of people that waited too long and ended up being assaulted.  Lots of surgeries and jail time for the assaulter.

How has trying to talk this out with your husband worked prior to this?

FF

[flourdust]

7 on the MOSAIC test is high. I think I scored somewhere around that point when I decided to divorce. This is tough, tough stuff. You can get through it.

I spent a loong time trying to draw up the perfect plan to tell my wife I wanted a divorce ... .I was worried about her dysregulating and getting the kid involved, harming herself, etc. It was like planning a battle. Looking back, it was a bit silly ... .like trying to plan the perfect wedding day, instead of working on creating a healthy marriage.

My recommendation is to follow two simple guidelines: 1) safety first! and 2) carry out your own plan, without his cooperation. Have friends/witnesses present when you tell him, tell him in a neutral place, have the locks changed and a friend to stay with you overnight, pack a bag with his necessities and bring it to him when you tell him, rent him a hotel room for a couple of days and give him the key. Present it as a done deal, with protection in place to block any dysregulation on his part.

For a better discussion on this and related topics, I encourage you to post on the Family Law board, where the members address these types of scenarios all the time.

[WitzEndWife]

The issue I have with packing him up and sending him off, pulling the rug out from under him, is that it is exactly what his mom did to him when he was 14, which probably was yet another catalyst to his BPD in the first place. I know that I don't have a responsibility for someone else's emotions, but that feels like the wrong way to go about it. My gut says not to do that. I read so many "How to break up with your BPD partner" articles, and they all say to do it like that, but it feels so horrible, like the person is some stranger in your house. Maybe it's because I don't feel THAT afraid of him. It's weird to say. Maybe I should? It feels like he has self control and doesn't want to hurt me. It feels like he just wants attention, recognition. He wants to be seen and heard. I have a call with my therapist in 30 minutes. I'll let everyone know what she says. It's a lot to unpack here.

[Ozzie101]

It is a lot to process and I do hope you'll keep us updated.

Like you, I'm struggling with what to do. My case is a bit different. H hasn't broken down any doors (though he has blocked me from leaving a room) but he has broken things and has been verbally and emotionally abusive. However, in my situation, he has more of a position of financial power. He makes about 5x what I do and the house is in his name. Though, in a way, that might be easier. All I have to do is decide to leave. I don't have to kick him out. And I do have a place to go.

Regardless, the thought of leaving makes me feel almost sick because I'd feel like I was abandoning him. I vowed to love him in sickness and in health. Doesn't this count as sickness? Am I not supposed to stand by him? Or do I just basically confirm every fear and every negative thought he has. I know he feels guilty when he does things. It frustrates him that he's like this. So, I feel guilty for thinking of abandoning him when he has done a lot of great things for me.

Like you, I don't really feel scared of him. I don't believe he'd hurt me. And yet, there's a tiny voice deep in there that is starting to say, "Yes. It's possible. This is how it starts."

What I'm trying to wrap my head around is that, yes, he's been wonderful, but he's also treated me in ways that no one deserves to be treated. I made a vow, but so did he. And he broke it.

The most important thing in this is your safety and I hope you'll do whatever you need to do.
 

[formflier]

  I read so many "How to break up with your BPD partner" articles, and they all say to do it like that, but it feels so horrible

Do they articles imply you will feel good about it?

FF

[WitzEndWife]

I told my therapist about my concerns. She asked me if I felt safe at home. I said I did, mostly. I said I felt like he wanted to be seen and heard and "take me down a peg" rather than hurt me. She said it sounded like he was having an argument with himself, at its core, that he was angry with himself, and I was just the "bystander" caught up in it.

I told her I didn't want to encounter this sort of thing again, but that I didn't think I could just pack him up and pull the rug out from under him. She asked me if I had tried communicating with him about the relationship. I told him I hadn't really done that since before we got married (3 years ago). I'm a bit communication averse to begin with, but it's definitely worse with him.

She suggested trying to open the lines of communication up before throwing in the towel. At least then, she thinks, I will feel better about it. She suggests I start with something easy, and work toward more serious/intense conversations.

I think it will feel better for me to have expressed myself, and not to have kept everything bottled up, regardless of what happens.

[formflier]

Does the T know about the door being busted in, and the hands simulating squeezing your neck?

FF

[WitzEndWife]

Yes, I told her everything.

[formflier]

Why not let him choose if he wants to stay?  I guess I'm shocked that you continue to put yourself in the position of decider.

Is there really a decision if you should live in fear in your house?   I suppose that technically there is a decision there, but what rational person would argue that by deciding you won't live in a house where doors are busted in... .strangulation is simulated... .dogs routinely are scared... .dog medicine smashed... .etc etc etc that YOU are deciding to throw him out.

What if you respected his decision either way?

If he seeks therapy to understand and STOP his domestic violence (and then complies) then he stays.  If he wants to not take responsibility for the busted door... .let him find a house where he can threaten people and is welcome.

Is it your responsibility to provide an environment where he is able to do such things without consequence?

Have you thought about why you didn't call 911 when he kicked in the door?  Have you ever called 911 on him?

Remember... .your score (7 out of 10) is high. 

I'll be painfully frank here.  Living in a house where doors and kicked in, strangulation is simulated (etc etc etc), yet reporting to the therapist that you feel safe at home (mostly)... .well... there is a big disconnect there.

That disconnect worries me.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I agree with FF. Living in a house where doors and kicked in, strangulation is simulated (etc etc etc), yet reporting to the therapist that you feel safe at home (mostly)... .well... there is a big disconnect there.
 

Having been a DV victim, I understand how strong denial can be. "Oh, he'd never hurt me." "He just broke some objects."

"He's having an argument with himself?" I'm not sure your T has enough experience with DV. I would suggest that you talk to some people at your local DV center and get their take on what transpired with your husband.

First it was anti-Semitic language, then breaking the dog's pill bottle, then the broom handle, then the strangling gesture, then kicking the door down, and ranting at you and blaming you for "disrespecting him".

This is no way to live. And I'm alarmed at how quickly he turned up the volume.

[WitzEndWife]

I didn't call 911 because 1) he wasn't going to hit me, and 2) I didn't want them to shoot my dogs, who undoubtedly would bark and try to protect me. Also, uBPDh has in the past threatened to commit suicide by provoking police to shoot him, so it's honestly a last resort. Also, it's not where my mind goes during these instances.

I think your solution is a good one. I can't tell you why I don't feel afraid of him hitting me. I don't. MOSAIC is merely a profiling, and a lot of the questions are very vague. The 7 out of 10 is high, but it's not saying that he will do something. It's just saying that, based on the questions, uBPDh matches with others who have a proclivity toward physical violence toward their partners.

I don't have a good answer for you about any of this. I guess I'm just dumb and cowardly.

[WitzEndWife]

FYI my therapist is a specialist with BPD.

[formflier]

I'm over twice the size of my wife, so my perspective is a bit different.

She has thrown things before but clearly was trying to scare or pitch a fit or something else, rather than hit me with what was thrown.

Over a year ago... .there was some financial thing she conjured up with associated drama.  I tried to solve it in a way she didn't like and she threw an ATM card at me... .and hit me with it.

Certainly there was no physical impact, but I knew that our relationship changed forever at that point.

I draw on that feeling when I hold boundaries around financial things, so I suppose in that sense the incident was useful, yet I wish I never experienced that.

My prayer for you WitzEndWife is that you never experience anything more than a "simulation".

The momentum of your relationship is going in a bad direction, I hope you can find the strength to get momentum going in a different direction.

FF

[Fian]

Based on what you are saying, I believe you are not prepared to leave and instead are interested in saving the relationship, however is rages are not something you want to tolerate.  Most of the advice seems to be pushing in the direction of leaving.

However, if we start with the assumption not leaving, wanting to stop the rages, what advice does the board have?  FF gave some advice on insisting on him going to counseling.  Can we flesh out that strategy more?

P.S.  I think he has manipulated you into not calling the police saying he will get himself killed.  My advice is to not take the police card away.  I would instead reverse it and say, if you do x again, I will call the police.  Make it very clear that certain behavior results in a 911 call.  As for the suicide threat, if he wants to kill himself, he doesn't need the police to assist.  The fact that he hasn't tried indicates that he isn't serious about killing himself.

[Ozzie101]

However, if we start with the assumption not leaving, wanting to stop the rages, what advice does the board have?  FF gave some advice on insisting on him going to counseling.  Can we flesh out that strategy more?

Just FYI, the DV counselor I meet with warned me that while counseling is good, there are a couple of red flags to watch for. If it's clear he's doing it just to save the relationship or because he thinks it will make you happy, be concerned. Therapy generally doesn't work in those situations. He needs to do it for himself -- because he WANTS to. Otherwise, he's unlikely to stick with it and do the work required.

Also, choice of counselor is vital It's very common for BPDs and abusers to be able to manipulate and put on a good face for a therapist. Sometimes the victim ends up in an even more dangerous situation than before.

Not trying to put down counseling. Just that there are some things to really consider.

[formflier]

 FF gave some advice on insisting on him going to counseling.  Can we flesh out that strategy more?
 

That's sort of what I said.  The nuance (or maybe it isn't nuance) is important.

If he wants to remain in the house, he gets professional help for DV... and complies.  You also have a message that you will understand and respect his decision to move out should he not want to work on DV.

Be clear... this is a dichotomous choice.  Be clear about using the term "domestic violence".

You have already made your choice... .you are going to live in a peaceful house and are in therapy to address removing violence from your life.  (note... you don't directly blame him you are owning your role)

I 100% agree with Fian... .don't "buy" the suicide threat.  Perhaps said better... .if you call police and he gets shot, you are not responsible for that.

Tough stuff...  

FF

[formflier]

"Compliance" is important. 

We can't know and shouldn't attempt to "mind read" about why someone is going to T.

Assume the best, watch carefully and time will tell.
 
I'm not aware of any other way to know for sure... .other than use time and focus way more on actions than on words.

FF

[Ozzie101]

True. We can't know motives. The counselor just said to listen for statements like using "we" instead of "I" or "this will save our relationship and make everything better." For it to work, he has to want it -- relationship or not.

[formflier]

True. We can't know motives. The counselor just said to listen for statements like using "we" instead of "I" or "this will save our relationship and make everything better." For it to work, he has to want it -- relationship or not.

I agree... 100%.  How will you know?  If you don't hear those statements... .is it 100% guaranteed he doesn't want it?

I'm not saying your T is wrong in the general teaching point.  Be wary about making the leap to applying a general lesson to a specific conversation.

Time will tell.

FF

[empath]

WEW, you are not dumb or cowardly. It is normal for people who are in abusive relationships to minimize their experiences so that they can continue to live in the situation for whatever reason. I would agree with Cat in recommending that you talk with the local DV shelter or the DV hotline - they have a online chat feature as well. They can help with creating a safety plan.

I am concerned about the idea of "making" your h move out. That's not really something that you can control. What are things that you can do and plan for yourself?

[Lalathegreat]

I’ve debated posting because I really hate that I’m in the position now of being “that girl”. You know the one - the “worst case scenario” girl who swoops in and sounds oh so overly dramatic in her representation of the worst possible end of the spectrum. But I feel like I need to.

Because I wasn’t afraid that my UBPDex would actually physically hurt me either. He had punched walls, broken things, raged, yelled, pulled his hair, and all but frothed at the mouth like a rabid animal... .but he always seemed to manage to control himself just enough that it all felt more like a desperate dysfunctional plea for attention, validation, and control. Interestingly, when I was here discussing his escalation from verbal raging to physically acting out I was also advised to take the MOSAIC. He scored a 7.

In the past 18 months I have had 3 surgeries to reconstruct my mid face. He spent 6 months in jail and has been on parole for 12. (He gets off parole next month.) I would give ANYTHING to go back and have another shot at making a few key decisions, not only for myself, but strange as it sounds - for HIM. But in no way am I wanting this to seem judgemental. When I was “in it”, I really felt unable to be too harsh in my efforts to end the relationship, or even to lay down and maintain firm boundaries surrounding his abusive behaviors. So believe me when I say that I understand your position and why it feels impossible to make such a dramatic stand.

In so many ways I feel that I have no good advice or road map, what I do know is that the past 18 months have been a pretty interesting journey down the path I wish I hadn’t taken. I took that path because I didn’t choose... .well... .ANYTHING for myself when I had the chance to.

Please stay safe. At the very least have a “go” bag packed and in your car just in case. Talk with a close friend or two who can give you a place to be short term if you need to get out quickly. I hope you never need to use your escape plan but better safe than sorry.

I’ll be thinking of you, please be careful.

Lala

[Cat Familiar]

Hi Lala,
I'm another "that girl" but in a different way. I'm so glad that you're healing from your injuries.    

The way I'm "that girl" in an alternate way is because the last time my exH attacked me, I slept alone with a knife in my hand. I lost all my compassion that night and I vowed to myself that if he attacked me in my sleep that I would fight to the death, no matter what happened. Fortunately he didn't.

Feeling that feeling, and even sharing it with you all, it's really shocking and out of character for me. I've always been non violent and I've been a vegetarian most of my life. I never want to hurt anyone or any thing. But that night I totally lost it. He had hit me for the last time. Ever.

Thankfully he didn't wake me to continue the attack. Otherwise I would probably be spending the rest of my life in a cell.

So please, anybody who is dealing with domestic violence, please seek help from DV resources before things get really bad. I had been a victim for so many years but I had no clue that at some point, I would snap. There are many women in prison who were victimized for years and finally went over the bend.

No one deserves to be hit, yelled at, hurt. There are resources out there to help you. Please avail yourself of them.

Cat