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Author Topic: Daughter is pregnant with 4th child and I'm afraid to tell her I won't help her  (Read 893 times)
Enjoysnooker

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« on: January 15, 2019, 06:04:45 PM »

Hello. First post from me. I am mother to a daughter who has 3 children by 3 different men. Long history of self harm (cutting, burning herself), suicidal threats. Her other pregnancies she has concealed but I got a text yesterday telling me she is pregnant again and would love "my support" (read $) but no negativity. I'm broke. I'm exhausted. I've spent the last 13 years picking up the pieces because it's not the fault of my grandchildren but oh, I'm done. I've had my own therapy, done CBT, feel I've learned a lot but this one has brought me to my knees. It's just devastating news for all of us. I am clear I am not helping with this new baby. Very clear. Due very soon. I am afraid to tell her this. Any advice welcome. When she's well, she's really well, but it's brief and then she's very impulsive and erratic and reckless. I do not think she is able to put the kid's needs first when she's at her worst but it's not to the point where she'd lose custody. All the father's except one are out of the picture. I know I need to look after myself but advice on telling her I'm done with helping? Thank you for reading this. I am just so very sad another person is being brought into this chaos and poverty and instability and man, am I tired.
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« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2019, 06:57:49 PM »

Hello Enjoysnooker and Welcome

Although I'm very sorry for the circumstances that brought you here, I'm really glad you found us. Having a support system is critical when a loved one has BPD traits.

I'm glad you've reached out for support in how to communicate with your D. We have lots of resources here, articles, workshops, etc., and I encourage you to read all you can, read and post in other members threads, make yourself at home here with family 

Do you think your daughter anticipates that you will not help her financially?

~ OH
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Enjoysnooker

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« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2019, 08:26:30 PM »

Thank you, OH. There is so much excellent information on this site. I am doing a lot of reading. Yes, I think she fully anticipates that I will step in financially in a huge way. I have helped so much for the other three grandchildren. This time? No. It's not in me, not financially or emotionally. I will continue as I do for the other ones, the clothing, the extras, the food. They are 80% of the time with the father of one of them and he's very stable, a very positive and caring influence. The pattern is always when things are stable, she must create chaos. Always. It was devastating to the eldest child to hear of this pregnancy as she as been the de facto mother to the littler two since forever. I was clear in talking to her alone last night that a) we can't control what other people do and b) we can make positive choices for ourselves. I see them two nights a week (pick up via the aforementioned father's place) and I have them out to our house two out of three weekends. I realized when 2019 hit that I needed to take more time for myself somehow, burning the candle at both ends (I work outside the home also). I was just figuring out how to do a bit of this and the bombshell of the pregnancy dropped. I just can't really get my head around it. A fourth?  I just can't get my head around it. They live in a one bedroom apartment. Yeah. I dunno. It just feels a relief to say it and let out how very sad I am, sad. Tired and sad. So yes, she thinks I'll see the baby and pow, out will come the checkbook. I'd have retired five years ago if not for the money needed for the other three. As it is, I doubt I'll ever retire. There are many custody issues and no maintenance paid by two of the other fathers. I wake up and think, "Is this really happening?" And yes, it is. I know I have to find time for myself. I am very aware of that. It also helps to write that down. So she'll be royally p'ed when I say there is no "support" coming from me. Oh yes.
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« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2019, 10:08:45 PM »

Are you currently providing any financial support? Is it your intention to provide no more when the fourth baby arrives? Or are you saying there simply will be no more financial support at all? (Which is fine, by the way... .) Just trying to better understand the situation.

It sounds as if your decision position is as much emotional as financial.

There comes a point you have to put your needs - saying and retirement needs - first.
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« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2019, 02:13:24 AM »

Hi enjoysnooker

I’m so sorry to hear about your situation. I’m 55 and when our savings finally went trying to “help” son28 it woke me up. We can’t work forever and have to think about our own futures. I got the balance in my life wrong, I wasn’t taking care of myself and was investing too heavily in him. It took awhile to learn a new way for us all.

Once I started to think about me and my life as a priority my life improved. Ironically, son’s life did too.

Have you heard of JADE? They say don’t justify, argue, defend or explain. I can see in your situation that may seem an impossibility.

What do you see your life looking like?  What do you want for yourself?

Hugs

LP



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     I did my best. He told me I wasn’t good enough. White
Enjoysnooker

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« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2019, 07:29:19 AM »

Gagrl, oh, I wish I'd found this group a long time ago but I'm grateful to have found it now. To summarize (as the store is so long), the first unplanned pregnancy was 13 years ago and my D was 20 and she and that boyfriend appeared to get clean of drugs and were trying. They had nothing. I got the whole kit and kaboodle, you name it, you know, baby things. They were so broke that I also got groceries most often and diapers and formula. I look back, oh, I look back and well, I see a lot, as one does in looking back. They broke up. Second child born. Situation more dire. So to answer this question I have always bought all clothes, dental/medical, an extra curricular things as there would be none otherwise (so a week of summer camp sort of thing), spent a king's ransom on lawyers at one point when there were issues as there were so many issues around that. The person who thought they were the father was not the father, in two cases. So, let me get this tea into me. I have supported them in a huge, huge way for the last 13 years and two things are at play for me here. I am in such bad shape financially because I did that, I want to continue to support the other three in the extra-curricular things but I am not going to buy stroller/crib/playpen/diapers/formula/clothes again. No. All of what we had is gone as it was given away once the youngest turned 5 and this was agreed, my house would look like an issue of "Hoaders" if not, it's got a lot of her things stored here anyway. I hear the enabling on my part. Oh, believe me, I do. And why would I be afraid to say no to her? That she'd block me from seeing the kids. I am their stable person. I have been there through thick and thin. They turn to me for that, to be the stable loving person, the predictable one. I adore these kids. So I am not buying all baby things. Period. And I know she thinks I will. Her text said she welcomes my loving support. Ummmm, no? No. I've not texted back yet. She said I'll come around (in her text) given time. No. The boyfriend she lives with now is very unkind to my eldest granddaughter and she does not go there often.  Both of them work minimum wage jobs, their car cost 800.00 and anyway, it wouldn't even fit them all. So no. I stopped giving her any money or support when she left her marriage and moved in with this guy. I only do things directly for the kids. I hope that answers the question.
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Enjoysnooker

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« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2019, 07:45:57 AM »

Hello Lollypop,
I need to find a better way to hit reply somewhere so that you can see your text in the body of my responses. We're the same age. Again, I wish I'd been on this group sooner to listen and read the very sound advice. No one understands the way someone in a similar situation understands and I have not heard of JADE but am going to read about it once I hit send.
My husband is much older than me, we've been married 35 years, these are our children together. He is extremely ill and had a diagnosis that means he does not have a long time ahead of him. No timeline given but each visit things have worsened when we see the specialist. So, how do I see my life looking? It's a good and valid question. I have been clear in the past two years of telling my D that my priority was time with him, doing the things we like (snooker!). I do my best at mindfulness. I do not think about the future because my future includes his absence which basically has me without my best friend, my rock, truly the love of my life. She has stolen so much from us. I'd have retired by now if I'd not been supporting three kids but once you start... .well, not so easy to then say no, now it's cut off. Fend for yourselves. Maybe I should have done that. I never saw this break up coming (stupid me) and I certainly never saw this pregnancy coming. So what I see if I look is me still caring for the 3 of my current grandchildren. I see myself estranged from my D and I basically never see her. Not much change there as she's avoided me very much this past two years during her affair and the breakup. She gets in touch when she wants to play me and get my ATM in action. Sounds harsh but that's it. She only had eyes for this current boyfriend for a year and it was truly to the emotional neglect of the kids who slept on mats on a floor with a cat peeing on their backpacks while D and boyfriend had the big bed and bedroom. I can't believe how it feels to write it down. It's one thing to say it, it's another to write it down. He has three children from his previous marriage so six between them. They live with their mother.
When you ask me how I see my life I am really clear that I have a say in the life  I have. #thankstherapy   I want peace. I really want peace. I know I have no control over what she says or does. I know that right now since they are with one of the fathers the majority of the time I can see them very often and this is wonderful. We've had such a good six months. Tonight I will swim in a pool with the 8 year old and that's a bit of a miracle. Thank goodness for rx googles is all I can say. I want my husband to live forever. I can't fathom not being with him. I do not think about that. We have our wills and power of attorney for medical/financial all in place. I worked in palliatve care for six years some time ago. I dunno. I just want peace. I want my days to be good days. I want our days to be good days. It feels like she lobs explosive missiles into any peace I claim. So with this one, I am trying to think air raid shelter and just carry on. I will read about JADE. I will. I am so glad I've not said anything to her yet. I've talked to the eldest granddaughter who is doing better. She says as long as she can talk to me she's okay. I just have too much on my shoulders and some of it has to be there. I have cut any deadwood I can and have a small circle of good friends but this is just so abstract to them, you know? They are just so puzzled. Like how can this be? And what can they do? I can talk to them but no, they can't understand it and it's really out of their realm of reality. Unfortunately, it is my reality.
Thanks for reading all of this and thank you for your kind words, all of you. I am going to read about JADE now and see how Ronnie O'Sullivan is faring in the snooker.
Enjoysnooker
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Enjoysnooker

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« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2019, 07:57:47 AM »

Are you currently providing any financial support? Is it your intention to provide no more when the fourth baby arrives? Or are you saying there simply will be no more financial support at all? (Which is fine, by the way... .) Just trying to better understand the situation.

It sounds as if your decision position is as much emotional as financial.

There comes a point you have to put your needs - saying and retirement needs - first.
Whoa, I figured out how to do this. I had one more thing to say, Gagrl. I have a decent job. I have never been much into "stuff" as I'm a minimalist but I never was able to say no to the kids needing clothes (we live in a harsh Canadian climate and for years they had to walk or bus everywhere). Could I cut them all of now? No. Oh no. I will continue to do what I do for the three which now is just clothing and two take dance lessons and I swim with the middle child. If I could tell you how happy the dance lessons make them... .and the swimming. To have something fun each week to look forward to. One thing. So no, I do not give to my D but I am not stopping what I do for the kids now. But I am not doing a thing for this child to be born next month no matter how horribly things go. If I'd not enabled all that I did maybe she'd not have had three with no means of supporting them? Who knows. She probably would have. It's all hindsight which is not useful. But I need to somehow tell her that I am not on board with any support for what's in front of her. I really need to read that JADE thing now.
Thanks for asking this. When you said I could cut them all off I kind of gasped (not bad gasp, just reality gasp) and thought hey, you know, that is a potential thing. Maybe I could retire. It's just all been hard for me as due to how our lives are here in this house we very much live day to day. I do like my job. I just wanted to add this. Thanks again for writing.
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Enjoysnooker

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« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2019, 09:00:59 AM »

I am doing a lot of reading of the resource material here and just read this about the triangle (never heard of it before). I am cutting and pasting.

'Giving up rescuing the other person is an action, not a discussion. It isn’t something to announce to the other person. It isn’t something to negotiate with the other person. It isn’t something to threaten the other person with. It is all action. We stop participating in the merry-go-round interactions, we stop arguing, we stop worrying about what the other person will do next, we stop expecting the other person to fulfill our needs. This does not mean that we have to stop caring about or loving the other person. We change from being a rescuer  in the interaction by making choices and taking actions that work better for us and might even work better for the other person."

Whoa. It's not a discussion. I felt I had to give this long explanation to her that would a) not set her off and b) somehow make me feel like I was not a horrible person for not caring for this unwanted baby coming into the world.
Reality check: I am not pregnant. Am I? No. Definitely not.
2. I do not have to explain all my thinking to her.
3. Although she does know (hopefully she does?) I do need to tell her there is nothing in the way of baby care items in this house stored
4. I need to look after myself and hold myself accountable for that
5. I need to think of her less often in the course of the day and focus on what is right in front of me (up the mindfulness)
6. I need to replace "need to" with "will" or maybe even (gasp) "am"
7. I celebrate small improvements of moving foward
8. I am grateful to this group for existing.

Okay, that's it. I hope my story helps someone else as your stories and the information here have helped me. I'll post as the days move forward.

Enjoysnooker
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« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2019, 10:07:33 AM »

You are on top of it, Enjoysnooker

Excerpt
I felt I had to give this long explanation to her that would a) not set her off

It's liberating, isn't it?

I look forward to your updates and you sharing what you've learned. It helps all of us to know there is hope 

~ OH
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Enjoysnooker

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« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2019, 06:15:26 AM »

You are on top of it, Enjoysnooker

It's liberating, isn't it?

I look forward to your updates and you sharing what you've learned. It helps all of us to know there is hope 

~ OH

Dear Only Human,
I still feel up and down on it, have not yet been in contact with her. I am so sad for this child who will be born. I"m sad for the other three. I continue to learn a lot here. I really see my rescue/enable thing so clearly now. And I think I see what was quite clearly hope. Hope for what, well you may ask. I hoped that during the couple of stable years we had (six years ago) that maybe things were turning around and there could be more peace and stability in our lives. I had denial as that began to all unravel and then it just all unraveled. My Achilles heel is the suffering of the kids. Yeah. The grandchildren. I'm not depressed but I am sad. It's very hard to see the pain they are in. They love their mother. Of course they do. But she's really been so emotionally neglectful this last couple of years. The eldest does all the day to day small kind acts of mothering and caring.
Yeah, I think it's a process. I'm grateful to be here and know I am not alone. I wish I'd found this group earlier. I am trying to use all the things in my tool chest for dealing with this while adding more. I"m tired. And I'm sad. That seems pretty normal to me when I look at things from a distance.
Thank you for writing.
I would like to not be afraid of my daughter and her behaviour but I am. I do not think there is a "how to not be afraid" tip or I'd read it on constant loop. Mindfulness helps, for sure, but the waves of fear and sorrow hit me. I have tea. I watch snooker. I breathe.
May the day be a peaceful one. For everyone. Here and afar.
Enjoysnooker
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« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2019, 05:54:43 PM »

While there's no specific "how to not be afraid," tip, there are ways we can minimize our own suffering, ways to feel empowered. Waves of fear and sorrow are unavoidable, natural reactions. As a grandma, I totally relate to these feelings. They no longer consume me and I owe it to the tips and tools I'm learning here, my therapist (T), and being able to come here to work stuff out with you all.

Has your D been in contact since her last text asking for your loving support?

"I will love this baby as I love all my grandchildren," seems a safe reply. What do you think?

I don't know that it's necessary to pre-empt any requests for financial help with a statement that you won't be helping financially. You say she probably knows, you hope she knows, that there are no items stored at your house for an infant. Are you worried she'll ask you to buy baby items for her house or are you worried she'll bring the baby without the necessary items for its care while with you? Wipes, a pack and play, etc.

Have you read this piece on FOG (Fear, Obligation, and Guilt)? Here's a link:

5.09 | "FOG" - fear, obligation, guilt

It's got some good tips, here's an exerpt:

Step One  Don’t respond the moment a demand is made. Give yourself time to think and assess the matter.  We want to respond - not react.

Step Two  Let go of your emotional ties to being controlled, at least briefly, and try to be an independent observer. Gather the information you need to construct a wise response - one that is neither enabling nor confrontational. Likely there is a long history of bad, demanding behavior and enabling responses/resentment, so this is going to take some discipline not to be triggered or to overreact.  You may want to enlist a confidant - someone you respect for their emotional maturity and ability to read others - to act as a sounding board.  Remember, it's problem resolution, relationship retraining - not a battle.

Focus on the demand at hand, not all the past history. Assess how significant a particular demand is.  Remember that there are different levels of demands, and know where to be strong and where to be flexible- demands that are of little consequence, demands that involve important issues or personal integrity, demands that affect major life directions, and/or demands that are dangerous or illegal.

Step Three  Respond in a constructive way.

Non-defensive communication  Do not defend or explain your decision or yourself in response to pressure. Use phrases like "I’m sorry you are so upset. I can understand how you might see it that way." Without fuel from you, the controller's attempts that worked so well in the past will fizzle. Choose time and place carefully. Lay down conditions for the meeting, announce a decision and stand by it – offer a suggestion that they not respond immediately. Anticipate their answers. Practice or role play. Consider how to respond to the person’s: Catastrophic predictions and threats, name-calling, labeling and negative judgments. The deadly whys and hows – demanding explanations and a rationale for your decision. For silent angry people, stay non-defensive.

Enlisting the controller as an ally  When emotional control reaches an impasse, it’s often helpful to shift the conversation by involving the other person in your problem-solving process. Approach with curiosity and a willingness to learn.
Bartering  When you want another person to change his or her behavior, and at the same time you acknowledge that you need to make changes of your own, barter may be in order. It’s win/win. It enables resentments to be put to one side.

Using Humor In a relationship that is basically good, humor can be an effective tool for pointing out to the other person how their behavior looks to you.

Step Four  Be ready for some pushback or more aggressive responses. Often things will get worse before they then get better - our resolve will be tested - this is common in any type of relationship retraining.  We need to have perseverance and confidence that both sides will eventually adjust, and it will end or reduce the feelings of being controlled.

Step Five  Periodically evaluate the progress. Keeping a log of events, actions, and outcomes is helpful for this purpose. A lot can be learned from looking at the history - what works, what does not, and if progress is being made.  All of this should be factored into our decisions of how we go forward.


~ OH
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Enjoysnooker

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« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2019, 06:46:05 AM »

While there's no specific "how to not be afraid," tip, there are ways we can minimize our own suffering, ways to feel empowered. Waves of fear and sorrow are unavoidable, natural reactions. As a grandma, I totally relate to these feelings. They no longer consume me and I owe it to the tips and tools I'm learning here, my therapist (T), and being able to come here to work stuff out with you all.

Has your D been in contact since her last text asking for your loving support?

Dear Only Human,
Thank you for writing. No, she's not been in contact. I am going to think about what would help me feel empowered. I think I went from the first phase of feeling the shock/survive feelings to now this other phase. I feel sturdier in the first phase.

You asked some other questions. Oh! The FOG stuff was excellent. I had not heard of it before. It's really relevant reading for me.

I can't scroll back and read your questions. I'll write and I think this will answer them/explain things better. So three grandchildren (13,8,6). They have not ever lived with me. The first two pregnancies were concealed and she just called me from hospital while I was at work. I had no idea she was pregnant. She actually concealed second pregnancy from the father and broke up with him prior to the birth. He found out on social media. Anyway, I digress.
Where was I? So yes, anything baby related I've bought. And child related. Oh, and groceries and rents and phones over the years. It's been a process. She does not qualify for welfare or any type of assistance ala all the different fathers (one in prison, one was in a psych hospital for a long time based on criminal charges but him being not fit to stand trial, etc).
I think part of what has been the journey is best summarized this way. The father of child number 3 is solid and kind and good and caring. The kids are with him most of the time. He lives near their schools and he and his partner both work and it's a very stable and loving environment.
It was two years of the break up going to happen so let's say since youngest grandchild was four. Yeah. Two years coming, so very clear to me it was coming and fear of what that would mean. I hardly heard from her then (she was in the affair), maybe once a month if that. It was hard to get to see the kids. It was all hard. But the finances (rent/food) were all taken care of by father of GChild 3.
She left them summer of 2017. Oh my word, 2017? Yeah. 2017. The timelines always are a blur to me. So she left to live in one bedroom apartment owned by boyfriend. She forbid kids to tell me. Yeah. So I knew something was wrong but... .I'd pick them up at their usual home and we'd come out here to my house for the rare sleepover. There were always excuses from her. Then in November of 2017 she told me she had moved out. Turns out the kids were dragging bedding and crying on a bus every second day as she made them stay with her and boyfriend. She and boyfriend had bedroom, kids were on mats on floor of living room with this cat (no offence to cats but) who peed on school backpacks, etc. I can't even get my head around it but that's what happened. When she told me and kids could take to me, the eldest had a LOT to say and expressed a lot of her distress. I talked to father of grandchild 3 who at that time had them 50% of the time. As he is only biological father of the youngest, his fear was that she's block him from seeing the other two. Our whole ground is eggshells, so to speak (ala walking on).
Then what happened. He rode it out at the old apartment and she got a job (first in a very long time, like 12 years). This was a game changer. She was working so he had custody more. He moved in with a new partner in September of 2018. It's a three bedroom apartment. Their other place was two bedroom but hey, I'll take that over ONE bedroom with five people. So now they have a bedroom. Now they have meals. I went there the other night and he was making pot roast in a slow cooker. This may not sound like a big thing but it was a big thing to me. My heart was like YES! Pot roast! It is the predictabilty of every day life I now see when I see them. Regular showers, regular meals. Being mostly in that place where life is predictable. I see a huge change in the kids. Huge. The new apartment for them is a five minute walk to their schools. They have friends over and can go visit friends. So many normal things. Clean clothes.
So eldest granddaughter started refusing to stay overnight at my daughter's apartment. She said she gets asked by kids at school why she smokes (she does not but D and boyfriend do so it's super smoky) and she said she can't sleep on floor. So the partner of grandchild 3 picks her up from there and brings her back to "home." The two little ones stay. D gets them to school on a bus. Boyfriend has  a car that works some of the time.
Maybe there is something really wrong with me and that may well be but you said a line about saying I'll love this grandchild etc. I tell you flat out, I am not feeling that. No. I am not. Oh, now I can see your post below this. Yes, you suggest a line. Oh my word, I know how my D would hear that. She'd hear jackpot, crib/diapers/formula, groceries. Yeah. I totally understand this is not the child's fault, I know. I really do know.
It's the cumulative fourth unplanned pregnancy when they have nothing, it's just when things were getting easier for the other three. They were. Life was looking so much better for the other three. And now? Well, they won't even fit in a car all of them. And I know that's not my problem.
Oh, boundaries bite my rear end every day since coming to this site. It's like I have woken right up. And that's both probably good but not easy.
I will continue to do the extra things I do for the other three (dance lessons for two of them and I swim with one of them). I'll continue to buy their clothes because I always have done and I want to carry on with that. I want them to be warm and dry. Our climate is fierce.
So if I look at the FOG thing and examine it , fear. Nodding. Yeah. Fear of what this is going to mean for them. She and boyfriend fight a lot, she's left him on a few occasions (told to me by GD 3). I hope you can keep some of this straight. I once saw a lawyer who just looked totally flummoxed even though I had done a flow chart for her of who was related to who and how. She was just kind of "whaaaaa?"
This infant will not be coming here. I will have the three others for our sleepovers. She would never send the infant to me. She's super possessive of the kids. She used to not let me hold the eldest one. And then she tires of them and that's when I see the neglect. It is really hard to see that emotional neglect.
Where was I? So yes, fear. Obligation. Guilt.
I realize in reading here (and have always felt) that there is great hope for people with BPD who want and seek help. I do not see it as a ball and chain of eternity. But the key words are 'want and seek help." Yeah. The history with that is too long to type. I did try a lot to get her help in her teens. No avail.
The only reason I know about this pregnancy (due in Feb) is that GD2 said if you do not tell her, I am telling her (her being me). And D only told them last week. Whenever I came here. I don't know what's up with the concealed pregnancies but it's a pattern for sure. So that element of surprise, well, yeah. I am more rescuing when there is a baby with nothing. Not a thing. And caught off guard. Even if I did not go buy it, I'd be at a thrift store trying to cobble together some things.
Except not this time. And it's not out of anger (although I have had anger). It's out of reality. And out of a desire to continue in the claiming of my own life. I know I have no control over what she does. If anyone knows that, it's me. I do know.
This is so long I'll sign off now. Ronnie O'Sullivan lost the snooker. I had several Fruit and Nut bars during those matches we watched last night. Oh well. Snooker. It's an intense game. Tomorrow I'll play. A few hours where all I worry about is trying to pot the balls. I am very fortunate to have this game in my life. It's my rest for my mind, even if it's so wildly hard, this game.
Thanks for listening to this long thing. I"m hitting post.
Enjoysnooker
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« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2019, 06:51:36 AM »

Typo. It was GD1, the eldest, who told my daughter that if daughter did not tell me about the pregnancy, she (GD1 who is 13) was going to tell me. Okay, cup of tea.
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« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2019, 11:35:43 PM »

I'm so sorry to hear of your H's medical issues and prognosis, your best friend, as you say. You want to focus on you, him, your life together, to have some peace. You deserve as much. My heart goes out to you, Enjoysnooker, you have so much going on and now a new baby is coming, you're afraid your D will block access to the three GC with whom you enjoy close relationships unless you open up your wallet.

It's great that your GC have such a loving/stable father figure who has taken them all in as a package deal. I can tell that you find great comfort in that. The children are lucky to have him, and you, in their corner.

I'm glad the article on F.O.G. was useful. As you are aware, we've got lots and lots of helpful information here. But the best thing we have here is people who have gone through, are going through, similar struggles. We are listening, we get it more than anyone else can get it unless they've lived it.

Keep posting, Enjoysnooker, let us know how your game goes tomorrow. I had to look "snooker" up to see what it was =)

~ OH
 
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« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2019, 07:24:02 AM »


Keep posting, Enjoysnooker, let us know how your game goes tomorrow. I had to look "snooker" up to see what it was =)

~ OH
 
[/quote]

Dear Only Human,
 
I feel like having come here initially and by checking in here, reading the resources and some posts, oh, it is such benefit. It has been and continues to be a huge help to me. Thank you for listening and I am humbled and grateful by how perceptive you are in reading what I write, that you are clearly getting the picture.

I sent a text yesterday to reply to the text she'd sent me to announce. I talked to my husband and he said that all he could think to say was he hoped she and the baby were healthy. In her text she was emphatic that I probably knew she was pregnant already. Umm, nope. Did not. So my text said something like "No, I did not know you were pregnant. We hope you and the baby are healthy. There are no baby items left here, all the clothing and equipment were donated a few years ago." She knew this but I felt I needed to clarify. She'll not be in touch now (my guess) until it's crisis mode in hospital and there is no car seat to get the child home. Or whenever the first big crisis hits. It felt a relief to at least respond to her text. Done.

Texts are a strange mode of communication (to me). I have always been not into my cellphone and I probably know like three emojis, yeah. It's like a language I just did not learn. So how she'll take that, well, I think she will not take it well but I am not in the place at all to say, "We welcome this fourth as we have the other three." Each of the other three was so much chaos/crisis/the many boyfriends/ police at the house for calls she made/ etc. So no. I could not say that. And her situation now with this current boyfriend is so bad.

I saw GD1 last night for her dance class. So it's been a week since she learned this news too, right? She saw her Mom this weekend and Mom told her she is "scared no one will help her." Ah me oh my. I said to GD1 that this baby was the responsibility of both Mom and boyfriend to care for, that is was not my baby, that is was not GD's baby, it was Mom's baby. I work so hard to listen clearly to GD1  and say what I hope is the right thing back. She's only 13 and she's had such a hard life in so many ways.

It's so interesting to me how my daughter went from two years of going out to clubs all the time (in this last two years even while she was married, getting drunk, coming home in the wee hours, etc, just invincible and wild as all get out) that now she can be this kind of oh, no one helps me victim thing. I guess that's part of the pattern.

I don't know if I wrote this yet but all I hear on constant loop in my head is that Maya Angelou quote of "When someone shows you who they are, believe them." It just came to me when I got the news and I think I am finally, after all these many years, being able to see my daughter with some objectivity and not constantly be defending her or trying to protect her or fix the many crisis or any of that. It has been (cough) a process. Ongoing I'd say. But here I have read stories and thought oh my word, oh my word, I am not alone. People with similar experiences have really great questions to make me think and offer really sound advice. Game changer.

Because it all sounds so very grim (and it is pretty grim) let me tell you one good news things. GD1 got asked by her dance teacher to help with the summer camps as a kind of junior counselor thing. She is over the moon about that. Rest assured that between me and the father figure she lives with most of the time, we'll see she is able to do this for the summer. She was over the moon. We all need things to look forward to. Today I can look forward to losing a few frames of snooker. Picture those red balls not going into the pockets. And then work tonight. I am grateful for my job.

I am grateful here exists.

Thank you, OH, for checking in.

Enjoysnooker
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« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2019, 01:49:31 AM »

How very exciting for GD1! Thanks for sharing the good stuff, Enjoysnooker, we must remember there is good amongst the chaos.

Excerpt
It felt a relief to at least respond to her text.

I'm glad you are feeling relieved, it sounds like you and your H are on the same page. You came up with a reply that showed concern for your D and her unborn child. Can't go wrong there 

Excerpt
I work so hard to listen clearly to GD1  and say what I hope is the right thing back. She's only 13 and she's had such a hard life in so many ways.

You might find the book, The Power of Validation, helpful. I've linked the title to the book to a review here in the BPD Family library.

I've found that validating my GS, even though he's only 4, helps him to feel comfortable sharing his feelings.

~ OH
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« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2019, 02:16:27 AM »

Excerpt
When someone shows you who they are, believe them

This is where I’m at too enjoysnooker.  I like this quote.

LP

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« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2019, 07:32:36 PM »

This is where I’m at too enjoysnooker.  I like this quote.

LP



Nodding. I was going to say I'm coming to terms but nah, I spent most of yesterday just one hair's breadth away from falling into a sodden mess of tears. And coming to terms with what? With that I thought things were kind of okay, settling down, I could see the kids getting a foothold and some stability. It's just been a really hard two days. Toeing the abyss and hoping for a bit of peace to show itself. Knowing I need to create that peace, even if it's tiny and just a cup of tea, for myself. Grateful to be here with people who know the road I walk.
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« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2019, 07:39:34 PM »

How very exciting for GD1! Thanks for sharing the good stuff, Enjoysnooker, we must remember there is good amongst the chaos.



You might find the book, The Power of Validation, helpful. I've linked the title to the book to a review here in the BPD Family library.

I've found that validating my GS, even though he's only 4, helps him to feel comfortable sharing his feelings.

~ OH


Thank you, OH. I will look into it. I got a text from her asking if she can store things here at our house as they try to make some room in the apartment. Oh, I want to say no. I really do. I already have a LOT of her things (and boyfriend's things) stored here. It is hard to see that stuff in the basement.
I keep thinking when not rescuing don't explain.
And I am now up against the fact that GD1 is feeling a lot of compassion for my daughter. A huge amount. And wanting me to help out.
I took tonight off from swimming and I'm just eating way too much bread and watching some tv. We watched "Far From the Tree" which I'd read. Maybe not the best choice, blame my husband, his choice.
I wish I could tune in more clearly to how I feel. Sad/fear/despair. I guess that's it.
I really should text her back in the next day or two. I am going on a cleaning house thing (not my usual state) in the next few weeks. I just need to get things moving or something, move myself, feel some sense of getting things sorted.
Any yay or nay on the storing stuff?
I am afraid to see her now that I know about this pregnancy. That must sound stupid. I feel like BPD steals/has stolen so much of her from me but then I try to accept that BPD is part of who she is, a very large part for most of the past two decades.
I know I don't need to apologize for sounding morose here. I'll get to bed. Tired is not good.
Enjoysnooker
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« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2019, 08:29:16 PM »

I am so sorry you are facing this... .It must be mentally and emotionally exhausting.

Yay or nay on the storage? Well, how just room do you have without additional "stuff" encroaching on your own storage needs?
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« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2019, 09:11:25 PM »

Dear Enjoysnooker - there is such a lot you are dealing with and a tricky situation you are dealing with feeling pressure from GD1 to help out.

I hope you're able to find some peace in your house-sorting and snooker (we used to watch this when I was a kid in the UK, the era of Hurricane Higgins, Steve Davis and Ray 'Dracula' Reardon). I hope you get a good night's sleep too.
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« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2019, 05:04:57 PM »

I am so sorry you are facing this... .It must be mentally and emotionally exhausting.

Yay or nay on the storage? Well, how just room do you have without additional "stuff" encroaching on your own storage needs?
I dare not sit in the chair (re "exhausting") as I keep falling asleep when I sit there. The how much room question. Well, I think my D has hoarding tendencies (I'd say for sure she has them). She's dragged every stuffed animal from all time with her and stored them here (over a dozen garbage bags of them). I had the basement stuffed with the clothing of three kids/cribs/strollers/playpens etc. Two years ago I really got into minimalism for myself and I was on that track for a decade before that. I just get overwhelmed with too much "stuff." So with her agreement I got rid of all of the baby stuff but she asked me to keep her stuffed animals (She just just buying more once she had kids).
When she left her husband and moved in with boyfriend she asked (last summer asked) if they could store things here (ala this small one bedroom apartment for the five of them). I said yes. So my basement now again has a big pile of things that who knows if they'll ever take back or use, things that should be thrown out. I should mention she's had bedbugs in her apartment twice. Yes. Not her fault but still, I would like to NOT get that if I can.
Then this pregnancy and now she wants to store more things here. Do I have room? Sure, compared to her I go. I have space in the basement. So yes, I have room.
Saying no would be a shock to her. I mainly do not want to see her  until I feel calmer. I just do not want to see her. I also want to get rid of most of what is in this house as I feel quite certain it's going to end up being sold within the next few years.
I contemplated going out and just letting her come here while my husband was home (I did that once in the summer) but it's really hard on him. I don't know. I really don't.
I think one huge benefit of "here" for me is I can think things out loud. So say I say no. Okay. She'll be very upset. This wretched apartment she is in will not have room to turn around in. Say I say yes. She and her boyfriend drag more things out here. I think I have to not be here. I just can't see her right now. Well, I suppose I "can" but I do not want to. It would not be good for either of us. I am sure of that. Well, I am sure it would not be good for me.
So let's say I say yes. Then I think I look weak like oh well, whatever, doormat again. And in the not rescue thing it spoke a lot about not explaining. And I really agree with that.
Honestly, I can't figure it out so I'm just going to sit with it more.
I was reading some stuff about neglect. The kids had eight fillings in the spring and she lied and told me it was due to congenital clefts in the enamel (she was born with two) and I didn't say anything then because it was done by then. But it was not congenital clefts. It was just plain old neglect. And yet I'm supposed to take such good care of stuffed animals? Not working for me. This is not working for me. I got GD1 (She had no cavities) on board being the usual defacto mother thing and they have fluoride rinse and everything at all the places now.
Do I have room to store things she and her boyfriend want to store here now? The answer to that is yes I do.
Anything you hear me saying that I am missing, jump in. Thanks for listening.
Enjoysnooker
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« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2019, 05:07:41 PM »

Dear Enjoysnooker - there is such a lot you are dealing with and a tricky situation you are dealing with feeling pressure from GD1 to help out.

I hope you're able to find some peace in your house-sorting and snooker (we used to watch this when I was a kid in the UK, the era of Hurricane Higgins, Steve Davis and Ray 'Dracula' Reardon). I hope you get a good night's sleep too.

Let's not forget Dennis Taylor and Cliff Thorburn and Ronnie the Rocket O'Sullivan. I spent the whole snooker this week just thinking don't cry, don't cry, don't cry. I could not concentrate at all. I thought I'd end up in the car just in pieces. I am coping far less well than I thought I would be but I"m still going to work. I went to the snooker but just kind of barely made it through.
I know the worst is yet to come. She's due in February. Heavy smoker so usually early low birth weight babies.
Enjoysnooker (but not so much this week)
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« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2019, 12:55:10 PM »

I texted "Yes, we need to arrange the time" in response to her asking to store more things here. I have room. She has no room. The lesson for me has a few layers - to say yes to some things that are reasonable. To not say yes to things that make me feel like I"m drowning (and I know I'm late to the game on this and I understand my intentions of not wanting the grandchildren to suffer from lack of ... .fill in the many blanks). So yeah, I said yes. We'll see how it goes.

ES
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« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2019, 01:19:17 PM »

to say yes to some things that are reasonable. To not say yes to things that make me feel like I"m drowning

This is a good approach, ES, and one that I'm also currently working on.

~ OH
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« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2019, 04:23:09 PM »

Hi there Enjoysnooker

I know I’m a bit late joining in and I don’t know whether what I want to say will help. I see so much turmoil in your decision making, and I understand that, it is a difficult decision that you have had to make. I feel that it’s important that we make our decisions based on what feels right for us and not what’s right for others, not always easy I know. I have always got this so wrong in the past, always been a people pleaser, putting the feelings of others before my own.

I get that you want to help your daughter, I really do, but at what cost to you?

I personally think that you could introduce a boundary here. You value your space in your house right? That could maybe be your boundary, you then just need to work out what, for you, would violate your boundary. Does this make sense?

I’m not sure whether you have read up on boundaries, in case you haven’t, here is a link for you:

Communicate Boundaries and Limits

Let me know your thoughts 

FB x

PS: I used to be a Jimmy White supporter back in the day 

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« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2019, 04:25:00 PM »

I think the key is recognizing the drowning feeling early on, say like partway through treading water versus having big waves washing over one and gasping to keep afloat. Tuning in to reading one's own signals, I guess, which I tend to think is a lifelong lesson or series of lessons. Triggers shift, some things get sharper, some things dull. At this point I only know in hindsight ala "ohhhhhh, right!" feeling after the fact.
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« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2019, 04:33:38 PM »

Hi there Enjoysnooker

 I have always got this so wrong in the past, always been a people pleaser, putting the feelings of others before my own.

I get that you want to help your daughter, I really do, but at what cost to you?

I personally think that you could introduce a boundary here. You value your space in your house right?

I’m not sure whether you have read up on boundaries, in case you haven’t, here is a link for you:

Communicate Boundaries and Limits

Let me know your thoughts 

FB x

PS: I used to be a Jimmy White supporter back in the day 



Hi FB and I am very grateful for all your input. It does make sense. The house thing "could" have been a boundary except I said yes. Having said that, it is a chance to mark out a segment of the basement and say "This is it. Not beyond this." I think that would be fair as the other kids have things stored down there too. But I tell you, the minimalism bug has bitten me so much this past year.

Boundaries. Oh yes, I am reading it and in small ways putting it in action. Also a big people pleaser here, I come from a long line of people pleasers, ACOA, codep stuff.

I just smiled re Jimmy White. Ha. He's playing Reanne Evans. If you have a google look you'll see. I just glanced at it last night.

So yes, to know the boundary concept intellectually, I'm really good at that (eye rolling at self) but then it's the big breath and in I go, let's do it. And people, uh, do not love it. I just laughed out loud. They're not all YAY SHE SAID NO! YAYYYY SHE'S PUTTING HER OWN NEEDS FIRST! Well, uh, you people maybe but the people around me? Ha. Not. So. Much. But I get it. It's like they feel "Wahhhh, we want the doormat back, give us the endless ATM person who spits out the money when we push the buttons... ." Yeah. So, I feel a bit wiser tonight. And very much of that is thanks to being able to think out loud here and hear your input.

Going to watch a movie now. TV has been my friend this week. Wait. TV is always my friend. Right. Ha. And chips/crisps. Yeah!

Warmly,
ES
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« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2019, 05:18:03 PM »

Just wondering how this sounds to you:
Maybe you could suggest to your daughter that she gets rid of some of the old stuff to make way for the new stuff?

Maybe also suggest that she only brings essential new stuff?

Or is this a step too far?

Thanks for the nod to Jimmy, I’ll take a look 

Take care 

FB x
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