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Author Topic: BPD mom/Enabler dad create the perfect storm  (Read 378 times)
ProudDad12
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« on: August 12, 2019, 08:18:23 AM »

*mod note: This thread was split from this discussion: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338537.0


Just for kicks, imagine what a healthy parent would do: give you space, make an effort to understand, take responsibility for their part, celebrate your wife, support you in protecting your family of choice, simply enjoy your visits and the time you choose spend with them. Gifts and favors would come without strings. You would feel little to no fear of disappointing them, because you would know their love was unconditional.

It sounds like an amazing scenario. I mean I'm sure my parent's would tell me their love is unconditional, but I have to imagine the words would have a nice sharp edge. But to your point, I've been trying to pay attention to healthy parent/adult child relationships, and they look much closer to what you described. Another thing I'm continually reminding myself.

I know it doesn't feel good, but from a wife's perspective, I'm so glad you're protecting your family. You have goals to work for. Stay the course. You're doing great!

This 38 year old man welled up reading that (in a good way). Thank you
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 09:59:22 AM by I Am Redeemed, Reason: Split from OP for length » Logged
Notwendy
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« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2019, 08:22:35 AM »

I understand this hurts. My Dad was also enmeshed. He sounded just like my mother sometimes. It was hard because he also had moments of being lucid and not under her influence- and I was able to see the "real" Dad and the "real" Dad was amazing.

But like you, there was very little, probably nothing, I could say that would make a difference. It was my mom's way or else. And my mom's way was to require complete compliance from me and my children. I couldn't do that to them, or let her do this with me.

I commend you for standing up for yourself and your family. Ideally, this is what your father should be doing- standing up for himself and for his children's best interest but he's unable to. You are, and it's what your family needs.
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ProudDad12
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« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2019, 08:43:26 AM »

I commend you for standing up for yourself and your family. Ideally, this is what your father should be doing- standing up for himself and for his children's best interest but he's unable to. You are, and it's what your family needs.

Well y'all are on a roll today getting me emotional  (again, in a good way). Thank you for all the support, this message board really is a blessing.
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LoveOnTheRocks
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« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2019, 08:46:55 AM »

Happy Birthday, Prouddad12.  I am sure you will be enjoying those well wishes from your wife and kids.  I also remember dreading these things (mine or someone elses) during the time when I went dark....NC....on my abusive mom and dad.  My dad avoided me and likely because my mom seemed to hate me and I could never please her.  My amazing 20yr old daughter said the other day when her grandparents came up in our conversation that my mother is a perfectionist and that nomatter what my daughter did when she lived with my mother and father for 6 months last year, my mother ridiculed and criticized and fussed and so forth.  I told my daughter stories about how my mother used to demand the towels be folded in threes and before I learned that, she ripped me up over it.  Then, as an adult, I returned to her house and she now feels folding towels in twos is better.  It's not towels, it's everything.  She relentlessly rode me about everything in the world and I never measured up. I know my situation isn't quite yours, but emotional abuse is unacceptable, in all flavors.  
When I went NC and wrote her letters to tell her why, it was almost daily difficult for me, because it was ingrained in me to please her, and I was "taking her on" for my own mental health and wellbeing.  I did the NC for the better part of 6-8 months.  My parents showed up at my house around Christmas to give my daughter (and brought for me/my husband) Christmas gifts.  I allowed it, because like that thing you say about not wanting to unfriend your parents in hopes they'll change their approach, I was hoping they would have changed.  In fact, I don't think your parents can possibly see what you are saying in a day or even a week.  Mine did change and have changed how they treat me.  The pain of my actions (and the information in my letters to them) helped them, I believe....but they needed that time I gave them in the NC to look at themselves and each other and perhaps talked to some of their therapist friends????  I do know when we resumed relations, they were obviously working on their "stuff."  It wasn't all better, and there were slip ups, but the pain of my being dead serious about NC did something for them to wake up and it helped a lot.
I encourage you to stay the course.  ...and again, Happy Birthday to great husband and father!
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Vanilla Sky
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« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2019, 01:24:21 PM »

Hello ProudDad12  

I usually don't participate in the threads on this board because I am afraid that my words won't mean what I want to say as English is my second language, but your story and the moment you are living in now is similar in many ways with my own story and recent events.

I am sorry to hear that you had to go NC with your mother. I am currently NC with my mom too. She picked a fight with my husband out of nowhere, it was a ridiculous discussion of whether she could come to live right next to us. My husband politely stood his ground. My mother got crazy, screamed, told he didn't want anything to do with him anymore, and told me "I wanted to test him, I knew it!!". She left my house crying and slamming doors and started calling my in-laws to tell them how horrible my husband is. She, of course, expects me to apologize for not taking sides with her and make my husband apologize to her. My father can't stand conflict, especially when it leaves him "alone" to regulate my mother emotions. I too have got those text messages that put me back into guilt and obligation in seconds and made me look for "where is my fault in this? there must be something I did!".

I question myself less now. The distance from my mother gave me the chance to use my time and energy to feel my feelings,  not hers, to find my worth and self-respect, and get to a point that I felt strong enough to challenge the "you are a bad daughter/bad person when you are not caretaking your mother" message I received so many times. It was hard but eye-opening to realize I have abandoned myself for so long to keep mom calm and dad happy.

Your father can think that he is doing the right thing and being well-meaning, but what he is doing here is outsourcing his discomfort to you again. That is FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

I also wanted to say that you have found an amazing community here with so many people that get it, that are willing to share their stories with us and people that are further on the road of healing and we can learn from them. On my dark days, I came to this forum to vent (and sometimes desperate for help) and people here would tell me: we get it, it's hard, there is so much guilt and fear and hopelessness involved. Vanilla sky - keep doing this work, talk to people here, tell your story, work with a therapist that you feel comfortable with and talk to your partner. Put it out, talk, cry when it feels like." Although I could intellectually understand what they were telling me, it took me some time to understand it on a deeper level, an emotional level. I wanted to join the team here and tell you: keep doing this work, taking care of yourself and your wife and your kids. Sometimes this is so hard because this might be one of the first times in your life that you have chosen yourself.

My husband told me yesterday "I can't imagine how much of yourself you were losing to make sure your mom was calm/happy, to be always prepared for the next call or the next crisis, twisting yourself into a pretzel to live up to the standard of what a good daughter is the way your father defined that for you." Ugh!

I am sending a birthday hug on your way and wishing you can find peace for yourself and your wife and your kids, you seem to be a great team.
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ProudDad12
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« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2019, 09:15:09 PM »

LoveOnTheRocks, thank you! It's great that your parents are trying to work through their issues. I pray one day mine do as well. I strangely can relate with the perfectionist thing. When I vacuumed, the lines had to be just right. And we didn't want to walk in some freshly vacuumed rooms! And in our 3 bedroom 2 bathroom house we lived in for many years, we showered and got ready in my parents bathroom, because we were supposed to leave the other one clean for guests (and it was literally across the hall from my bedroom). Don't remember any criticism or hard time given on those things, but the perfectionist thing resonated!

Vanilla Sky, thank you to you as well! I don't know what the future holds for the relationship with my parents, but I really hope we can get and use some distance as well for my wife and I to process and work on ourselves, away from the fear and anxiety induced by my parents. You mentioned my dad outsourcing his discomfort on me again, and I think you're spot on. The ironic part is I've seen him get my mom into much worse states when he gets mad enough. Which really makes his words and defense of my mom all the more frustrating and hypocritical.

You're right, these boards are a great resource, and I'm glad I found this. Everyone here has been patient and helpful.

The twisted into a pretzel part is a good analogy... I feel like I've contorted in all sorts of ways in the past to keep from rocking the boat while trying to live an independent life. Trying to put those habits to rest.

Thank you again to both of you!
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RavenWatcher

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« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2019, 01:16:23 PM »

I too have an emmeshed father and an uBPD mother and it is so hard. My brother has been struggling too, and the refrain of 'if we were a normal family' is one I have come to use a lot to try and help us shift perspective for how things are. It helps me at least, and I hope it is helping my brother.

It helps me too to know that I am not the only one out there who has this experience. It doesn't make it normal, but it helps me to know someone understands, as so many people around me just don't.

I hope, ProudDad12, you can get that same sense from us. I don't know if that will help you, but I hope so.
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ProudDad12
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« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2019, 10:19:50 AM »

I too have an emmeshed father and an uBPD mother and it is so hard. My brother has been struggling too, and the refrain of 'if we were a normal family' is one I have come to use a lot to try and help us shift perspective for how things are. It helps me at least, and I hope it is helping my brother.

It helps me too to know that I am not the only one out there who has this experience. It doesn't make it normal, but it helps me to know someone understands, as so many people around me just don't.

I hope, ProudDad12, you can get that same sense from us. I don't know if that will help you, but I hope so.

Thanks, it does help. Sadly, in the case of my family, they think they are the normal ones. Or possibly even "better" than most families, since we are "so close", "have good morals", etc. So me trying to portray that concept to them would only invoke anger. In their minds they are the stand-up, perfect image family and that is not to be questioned.

Heck, one time in an argument I said something my mom about me being jealous of the relationship my wife has with her mom, where she feels she can be honest and open. Well I've come to regret that comparison (which I probably shouldn't have made anyway), because to this day my mom is still "deeply hurt" about how I wish she was like my MIL (which is definitely not what I said).

So post-birthday update... I got texts from everyone before 8am wishing me happy birthday. I responded to all of them with thanks, hoping it would be seen as a temporary truce for the day, and not a "Everything is good now and under the rug where it should be". Didn't hear anything after that but now that my birthday is over we'll see what comes of it...

Sour part came late morning when my mom made her obligatory FaceBook post (reminder: I have a FB account but I don't get on, so I neither see nor acknowledge what happens). Anyway, a friend took a screenshot and sent it to us. It was a long post, on the surface happy and loving, talking about how I was their "experiment baby" (I was the first child and grandchild on both sides), and they didn't have the internet to tell them what to do, they just had their parents and grandparents and the Bible, and they think I turned out pretty good. Not a direct quote and there was more, but I'd rather not go look at it again today. Anyway everyone who saw it that I talked to yesterday seemed pretty clear it contained a "sweet Southern message" to listen to your parents, or at the least that it contained digs at me. I ignored it, which I'm sure will get my mom more angry at me for not clicking that "Like" button on her post and on all the comments that followed. So ridiculous.

I'm suspecting something else happened last night too, because my wife's demeanor changed after she looked on my FB account. When I pressed she finally said "you don't want me to tell you". Knowing she was trying not to ruin the last bit of my birthday I just let it drop and am trying not to think about it.
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« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2019, 12:17:11 PM »

Yeah, that kind of behavior rings true for me. My brother went NC last year with our Mom while he tried to recover from a mental health episode triggered my Mom. For Mother's Day this past May, my Mom sent my brother's MIL a card. On the surface, it was a 'mom who has lost their Mom to another Mom who just lost her Mom' kind, thoughtful message. But at the end she tagged on all kinds of 'I never expected to be
a grandmother who didn't get to talk to her kids.'  So like your Mom, turning a positive into a passive aggressive.

I get you on the 'temporary truce'.  It's hard. We feel like we don't want to be the bad guy, but we also want to keep safe, protective boundaries which they don't see as protective, but divisive and antagonistic.
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LoveOnTheRocks
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« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2019, 01:44:00 PM »

Are ya'll absolutely sure we aren't brothers and sisters with the same mother?  I, too, am a southern girl, raised in what "they" consider to be the absolute perfect family by all of "their" standards.  We are church going, good citizens who have not a wrinkle between them.....
...but truth is....
I remember as a child being viciously attacked by my mother every single day.  I remember "hearing it" all the way to somewhere...anywhere...and us getting out of the car and looking like the best, most well put together family ever.  It was insane...all the badgering and screaming at me, and when we stepped out of the car, we were all instantly the freaking brady bunch.....(such a lovely family they all said). I used to think about that all the time, because it was happening all the time.
To this day, my parents are the beloved by all......and I am the wayward one.....not on the surface, because you see, I have run a successful business for almost 30 years, I have a house, a car, a job...all put together....but they know how screwed up I was/am (still not sure where we are right now with all of those people who nearly worship my parents, but I do know that for years, we all had to rehash every little thing I did as a teenager and I was lucky these people were my parents, and I put them through so much, blah, blah and blah).  Truth is, I do not have a criminal record, I was NOT the kid who had the wild parties at my parents house (my sibling was)....but my sibling was so good and I so bad. What it really means is my sibling didn't give lip and I did....as in, if it wasn't ok, I said something....that made me the bad kid.
I seem to be on a rant or a tear.  just venting....but these days, I have to work on perspective so I can be the best me, because I want to...and I am getting to the end of working through all my feelings and insecurities and everything else that happened as a result of being in that perfect family thing.  It's highly overrated imo....and all those FB posts are insulting, demeaning and should be called what they are, which is why this "bad kid" got her label...I did say something when it was wrong.
Not sure if my sibling wasn't smarter overall for letting it fly and then moving to another state as soon as they could......
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ProudDad12
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« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2019, 07:35:51 PM »

As bad as it sounds, I'm glad it's not just me! And yes, healthy boundaries are very taboo in my family.

So my wife told me what she didn't want to tell me last night... Apparently my parents are going to be in town in a few days for unrelated reasons. So I'm guessing one (or combination) of 3 things are going to happen:

1) My mom asks ahead of time if they can see the kids, which currently would be an answer of No, which would bring a fresh volley of wrath.

2) My parents show up at the door unanaounced (its my off day so I'll be home alone until school lets out), and cause a scene.

3) They say nothing, and my mom gets upset while in town that they are here and not seeing us, eventually evoking my dad to action and a subsequent volley of wrath (historical precedent on this one from last time we were NC (so many layers of sad in that statement)).

I guess there's always the 4th option of nothing happening at all, but I'm not sure I'm so lucky. So now I'm trying to prep myself. I think my options are to just not worry and let what happens happen, or maybe preemptively block them on my phone for a couple days to avoid the whole thing altogether. But that's a bridge I've yet to cross so it's a hard one. Sadly, I'm also thinking about just not being home during the day to avoid 2 altogether. And there's the part of me that can't believe we're in a situation where this is even an issue.

Anyway, sorry for airing what sounds like trivial stuff compared to the usual on these boards. It just helps getting insight from others with similar family dynamics, and sometimes the matter-of-fact input helps get me out of my head.
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pursuingJoy
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« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2019, 01:04:40 PM »

ProudDad12,

I feel the anticipatory knot in knowing they're coming to town. I'm sorry you're having to work through possible scenarios. My uBPD MIL comes up with fresh and exciting ways to torment. I agree that it would be good to minimize stressing about what they might do. Abusers like surprising us because it keeps us in a position of uncertainty and questioning and reactivity. You're not at her mercy. Is there a way to boomerang that enery and somehow proactively  turn the tables?

I do like the make-special-plans-so-I-can-avoid-contact-and/or-legit-say-I'm-busy approach. Is it realistic to do something special with your nuclear family for a few days? Something your kids have wanted to do forever? It would be a welcome distraction and a reminder of what you're protecting.

No matter how you decide to approach this, look how far you've come!   Keep it up.
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LoveOnTheRocks
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« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2019, 10:40:56 AM »

"...Anyway, sorry for airing what sounds like trivial stuff compared to the usual on these boards."

Are you kidding me?  This is NOT trivial...it's the stuff ulcers are made of, seriously!  When I went NC, I went through emotional turmoil day and night, literally.  I remember being at my computer at literally 3 in the morning, composing letters to them, working on letters I had already composed to ensure the exact sentiment was being expressed...no more, no less.  Point is, it was 3 in the morning, and I had a job to do the next day.  It was no small thing for me to do this, and it took a serious toll on me, as I know it is you, too. 

I am mud in the eyes of many people, because my mother over the years has talked terrible about me, in my face and sometimes behind my back.  Even though I put a stop to all of that, the damage has been done, because I'm in my 50s now, and this went on for years.  Their impressions of me are lasting and they still exist...the impressions of our lifelong friends.  I have worn the equivalent of a dunce cap all these years, because it was expected, and I assumed the position for all involved.  We all relentlessly crucified my existence, as if it was justified or warranted (and I dont think it was).  Now, I am working on meeting all new people who neither know my parents or my reputation among my parent's crowd.  I purposely do this to meet people who can form their own impression of me and I wait with baited breath to see if they think so poorly of me....isn't that screwed up????  The impact of their emotional abuse is far reaching.  My extended family is ticked with me because I have all but stopped interacting with them...I don't call anymore....I do attend the holidays, but the year round maintenance of constant relations has stopped.  I haven't been asked to explain myself, but my explanation is this....for years they told me privately that they thought it was terrible what my mother was doing to me....but they never said it out loud....publicly, as in, to her....out of fear that she would transfer her victimization to them.  So we all allowed her to brutalize me at every family gathering.  Now she does it to my father.....so she hasn't "worked thru" her stuff, she's just found another victim (one I think is deserving, since he allowed her to do it to me all those years!!!!!).  It's messed up...and I know I am wrong to say my dad deserves her mistreatment, but he never stood up for me, and that hurts!!!
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LoveOnTheRocks
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« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2019, 10:50:19 AM »

It is true that my daughter20 has BPD.  Her biological father had it, and she got it thru genetics.  My mother doesn't have BPD, but she is emotionally abusive all the same.  I am writing a second post just to say that things aren't the same with me and my daughter.  We talk through her dx and we are very close now.  We actively work on our relationship and have a great one!  I love that you see what your mother (parents) did to you and do to you, because it will make you a fantastic father and husband to your core family.  I am certain that regardless of your parents actions, you have choices with your now family and I can tell you are trying hard to not "repeat" what has been.  It's so uplifting to meet and know people who care enough......because so many people just go through their lives without even thinking on this stuff, and the cycle continues.
Please dont ever think your posts and these discussions aren't super important.  Are you kidding me???....they mean absolutely so much, and I admire and respect and want for these discussions to continue, to the point we all are able to do our very best....it's so important, and we are all so worth the efforts!

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ProudDad12
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« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2019, 08:26:26 PM »

pursuingJoy and LoveOnTheRocks, thank you so much for the encouragement. It really is awesome to be able to communicate with others who understand this stuff and what it's like.

Been meaning to post an update... the day they were supposed to be in town came and went, surprisingly without me hearing anything. I ended up spending the day with my in-laws at their place, both as a distraction and to avoid potential drama showing up at my door. According to my doorbell camera nobody did. I'm surprised, but relieved.

That said, today is once again showing the intricacies of NC... my mom texted me for the first time since my birthday, to update me on some medical stuff my sister is dealing with (nothing life threatening, but worth an update). She said she thought I'd like to know. So now, I go through the whole thought process of "Do I respond with a "Thanks for letting me know"?", or "Is this being used as bait to get me to engage?", etc. My wife pointed out that we hadn't exactly been getting play by plays on this stuff beforehand, so for now I'm taking in the information, continuing prayers for everyone on their health stuff, and opting to not respond. And hoping it's the right call.

LoveOnTheRocks, you aren't kidding about the turmoil day and night. I'm constantly fighting myself on this. Every time someone mentions seeing their grandkids, every time I see or experience something I want to text my dad about, every time I get a cute picture of the kids I want to send, etc., it hits me in the gut. And then I have to go through the whole mental exercise of reminding myself of why we are where we are, and try to move forward.
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pursuingJoy
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« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2019, 09:21:20 AM »

ProudDad thanks for the update. I was wondering how this played out. I agree with your wife, no need to break contact.

I was in a similar space of anticipating the worst a few days ago when my husband spent the day with his mom. She's been in a funk and has been FOG-ing him horribly. Not this time: he came home super happy and loaded with gifts. Well played, MIL.  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post) I didn't see that coming.

These "normal" moments make me feel crazy. My husband gave me the side-eye, like, "see?" I get to wondering if it IS just me. Am I overreacting? Am I imagining things? Was it really that bad? Should I just 'let it go?' For a hot minute, I felt ridiculous about my feelings.

Boundaries result in a host of fairly predictable responses designed to incite a response: exasperation, holier-than-thou rolling-of-eyes condescension, patronizing, moments of "normal" loving, gifts, forgetting what happened, updates about family, photos to remind you about past memories, health updates, polite inquiries. You feel silly all of a sudden. The patterns are pretty evident and they're tactics that work. This isn't her first day at the rodeo.

pwBPD only regard their own needs and will use tactics that have worked before to get their needs met. What your mom is doing has worked for her before. No matter how silly you feel, or how crazy, remember that a boundary is good for all involved. We can remain calm because we don't buy what they're selling.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

I know you already know all of this. Agreed, it's so nice to talk to people who are in the trenches. Keep us posted.
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LoveOnTheRocks
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« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2019, 09:30:31 AM »

You know, PD, I don't really think there is a "right" answer as to whether you thank your mother for letting you know about your sister.  It comes down to this....if, in future, you see a relationship replete with boundaries in place, then a short "thank you" demonstrates you are willing to be civil, engage WHEN APPROPRIATE and at an appropriate level....it's an introduction for her to your new way of communicating with her.  You will respond when appropriate, and in an appropriate manner, but you will not participate in the inappropriate "stuff."  
On the other hand, if you and your wife (mostly your wife, it seems) are sure you want NC forever, then, you don't respond.  I am not "getting" that you want no further contact, because you are still deciding, regardless of what your wife has decided (or not), so maybe for now, you need to be short, sweet and to the point, and can go full blown NC when you've decided and come to terms with that decision.

Even though things are much better with my mother now, I am stunned and still learning of how this lifetime of allowing her opinion of me to shape my perception of the world has done harm.  I realize that I have, to a much greater extend than I would like to accept, been angry with the entire human race.  I have a lot, still yet, to process on my own, regardless of whether I engage my family or not. I also have some bad behavior and unstable communication methods and patterns to reshape for myself and for relationships I hope to build going forward.  In short, because I have been so resentful of what one has done to me, I have been "over protective" of myself with others, and put shortly, I've been a bit more of an ass than I should have been in unrelated situations.  Wanting to put a stop to the abuse of one, I have been "too direct" perhaps with some others who, if I even thought, may have crossed a boundary or respect barrier I had.  
I am literally now questioning whether or not I have a personality disorder, because I see so much disorder in relationships I have with others.  I am finding that more than anything, I am uncomfortable with myself and how I interact with the people around me.....and that I do have some casualties in relationships all around me.  In tracing how I feel or felt when I created such casualties, it all comes down to me overreacting.....and to my mother....where ironically, I under reacted for far too many years. I am now trying my hand at reacting and acting more appropriately.  In the end, I need to find peace and comfort with myself and then make sure I have healthy boundaries with each person I come into contact with, so I can have more rewarding interpersonal relationships.  Some relationships won't be "normal" due to the abnormal things that have gone on within them over the years (ie: my family).  I find there, though, that I would rather not eliminate those relationships altogether, now....but certainly, I want to focus more on some of the newer relationships I've created....with people who are getting to know the more "introspective" version of me.  Going forward, those will be the ones I can really gauge how well I am able to maintain, without all the baggage and damage that has been, and which has resulted.
Wow, I didn't plan to share all of this, but it is going on with me now and has been for a while...and it's relevant to the impact these "abnormal" interactions have had on us individually...even if the "core issue" lies within the personality of another (our parents).
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ProudDad12
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Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Posts: 125



« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2019, 08:13:41 AM »

Thank y'all so much for sharing. I ended up not saying anything. I did receive another text a couple days ago about my dad's biopsy. I did respond to that one, for better or worse, figured it was necessary in that case.

Fun fact... so in our last counseling session, I showed him my dad's last text to us. Our counselor has been around a while and has a lot of experience. After asking a few questions and having a little discussion just to help me process it for what it was, he got silent for a bit and quietly said he doesn't think he's ever seen anything like this before. Talk about mixed emotions and a strange feeling of validation... In a weird way it helped me. Later while talking through it, he also said he had to stop/catch himself, because he was getting upset on our behalf! It was one of the more relieving and cathartic sessions I've had, especially since until 3 years ago I thought this crap was normal.

With all that said, the whole conflict switched gears enough last night that i figured it was time to start a new thread, especially given this one has had to be closed and restarted twice now! Thanks again for everyone being here and helping.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339155.new#new
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