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Author Topic: Part 2: Feeling a bit weird  (Read 706 times)
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« on: September 04, 2019, 05:21:53 PM »

*mod note: This thread is a continuation of a previous discussion found here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339053.0

 Welcome new member (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
 Trauma can lay dormant for a long time. My twenties and early thirties were a lot of fun. Looking back, there were triggers that I ignored, but I was feeling pretty good.
 

I think I ignored a lot too, I was preoccupied with making my ex happy, or at least trying. It's when we are alone that we are confronted by ourselves I feel, and there is nowhere to run.

Excerpt
These are deep dynamics that are being discussed here. We understand those very uncomfortable sensations and thoughts that come over you.

Kwamina makes very good points. Maybe you can explore those points a little more in depth with Mary?  

Yes, deep dynamics that I feel I do not completely understand or have the ability to process right now, thank you for understanding  Smiling (click to insert in post) me and mary have much to discuss so thanks for pointing out important lines of exploration, its appreciated.

LT.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 06:40:15 PM by I Am Redeemed, Reason: Split from OP for length » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2019, 05:46:30 PM »

I think I ignored a lot too, I was preoccupied with making my ex happy, or at least trying. It's when we are alone that we are confronted by ourselves I feel, and there is nowhere to run.

I see this as a wise observation. See, you’re already peeling back the layers. Trying to make your ex happy is part of this liquid puzzle. Trying to make her happy left you little, if any time, to look after yourself. It’s difficult when folks like us are alone with our feelings, thoughts and memories. It’s looking like you’re at a point where these things can actually become an opportunity for you. When I first showed up here, I was given the advice from a few different members to sit with my feelings and let them wash over me. I had no idea what they meant. I eventually asked about what that meant. They explained it and it became a little more understandable. It takes practice and a willingness to move forward, but it works. The feelings do subside LT. We can’t run from them. We have to face them at our own speed. You’ve got this.

me and mary have much to discuss so thanks for pointing out important lines of exploration, its appreciated.

We hope you keep us updated friend.
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« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2019, 09:23:28 PM »

Excerpt
  Trying to make your ex happy is part of this liquid puzzle.

Yes, my own dysfunctional behaviour here, she kept me focused on her thus granting me the excuse to not concentrate on myself, my addiction was avoiding myself maybe? I of course obliged.

Excerpt
  It’s looking like you’re at a point where these things can actually become an opportunity for you.

I sincerely hope so.

LT.
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« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2019, 06:43:01 PM »


Excerpt
me being me googled her and she is in fact a trauma specialist
I google stuff about my Ts all the time.  For a while I was seeing a post-doc student (he was amazing) and I made the mistake of doing a deep dive on him.  Saw some pics of him doing his hobby... I was better not knowing about it!  Nothing horrible, just not images I needed in my head while doing trauma work.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
When I was young it was met with ridicule and violence, I tried in my marriage but it was seen as weakness and I was told "You want to get a grip don't you".
This makes me angry for you and so sad.   I am glad you have safe places and people to do this with now.  Keep reaching LT.

Excerpt
It has never been met with understanding, Mary does that and I think I do not know how to react to it? I think this is why I find it hard to look at Mary.
I can relate.  For me it was being afraid to let someone in and see me and my emotions.  The whole the eyes are a window to your soul thing.  Once my T had me do an exercise part of which I was required to look him in the eyes.  I did it, sort of so he made me do it again.  My initial response was to tell him to f-off.  Smiling (click to insert in post)  He made me do it again.  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)  I got angry and defiant in defense.  What do you do (other than avoid)?

Excerpt
There has been nothing from me yet I could write a book on her, DO I love this person, really? Or am I simply using her to avoid myself? I honestly think this is why my thinking of her has drastically reduced, the core issue has been highlighted.
I think this is an excellent question and one many of us struggle with even if not aware of the question.  Sometimes I think love is nothing more than our own projections f our values, needs, wants desires.  Anyhoo, I digress.  I do agree that love can be used as a shield or to fuel our denial.  good for you for questioning it.

Excerpt
Harri, my story spans 36yrs. I always say I could write a book
Yep, it will take time so  start with a chapter at a time.  Smiling (click to insert in post)  The thing about our story is that it will change as we heal and recover.  Our perspectives will change and new possibilities will emerge.  


That is a pretty powerful and scary dream you described.  It sounds like you felt trapped but beyond that I do not know.

Excerpt
why do I not have memories before this? What happened to me? Do you see what I'm saying? I cannot tell my story, I do not know all of it, I have periods I cannot remember.
I think it is related to the trauma.  When I first started working on me, I had huge holes in my memories. and nothing much before the age of 5 or 6.  I still don't have a lot but what has happened is that over time as I work on things, I am remembering more.  I don't have much more of the trauma to remember anymore.  I am starting to remember good things and silly things like a pair of socks I used to love.  My point is that you may get some memories back as you heal.  I also noticed that when I 'remembered' the trauma memories, it was not so much that I forgot, but something I had always known just never looked at.  It is hard to describe.  I am not saying it will be the same for you though.  Just sharing.

Excerpt
What I think is that maybe it is learned behaviour because no, my mom did not intervene, she was not strong enough.
I does sound like it could be a learned behavior.  If our parents don't teach us by demonstration acceptance, how to self-soothe and care then we are left to work with what we have... it makes sense.

Excerpt
It all sucks but I see this as genuinely being a fantastic opportunity to slay my dragons.
 Being cool (click to insert in post)  Love it! (click to insert in post)  Okay dragon slayer, I think you are doing very well!

LT, I am sorry for my delayed response.  Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2019, 06:07:43 PM »

 Welcome new member (click to insert in post) Harri, I hope you are well  Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
  This makes me angry for you and so sad.   I am glad you have safe places and people to do this with now.  Keep reaching LT.

Yes, me too.

Excerpt
  What do you do (other than avoid)?

I sweat, fidget and knock my leg, I also sit up straight and fold my arms in a defensive, I'm in charge kind of way Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
  I think this is an excellent question and one many of us struggle with even if not aware of the question.  Sometimes I think love is nothing more than our own projections f our values, needs, wants desires.  Anyhoo, I digress.  I do agree that love can be used as a shield or to fuel our denial.  good for you for questioning it.

You digress as much as you want  Smiling (click to insert in post) I was having a very long and complex chat with my cousin last night and I think we actually got to the bottom of my "love" for my ex. Basically, I have come to accept (rather bitterly) that I did in fact have issues with my relationship with my mother, that stings to say but is a part of my journey I guess. I think I wanted love and acceptance that she could not give, only in her own way, I was her white knight that never fixed the unfixable. Couple this with the many forms of abuse I suffered at the hands of she who shall not be named and others has left me in a very confused state regarding my perceptions on what love actually is. My ex and she who shall not be named, I felt exactly the same way around them both, walking on eggshells, yet my experience with my mother compelled me to negotiate a solution to HER problems. Really interesting, upsetting and thought provoking realisations. I am in the process of trying to piece together who these people were because they are all dead now. I had it told to me last night that my uncle (moms brother) was a diagnosed sociopath, my brother as stated was a paranoid schizophrenic and she who shall not be named definitely had something going on. My cousin gave me point blank last night what she thought of my relationship with my mother, I looked at her in silence for a good while before replying...ouch. no wonder the world frickin scares me, I grew up in some serious sh1t and it is no surprise when you look at the big picture that I attracted somebody like my stbxw, she musta saw me coming...that crap was NOT love, my relationships with my kids, that's love.

Excerpt
  Yep, it will take time so  start with a chapter at a time.    The thing about our story is that it will change as we heal and recover.  Our perspectives will change and new possibilities will emerge.  


That is a pretty powerful and scary dream you described.  It sounds like you felt trapped but beyond that I do not know.

Perspectives are changing by the day right now. Ye, the dreams are what they are I guess, I have flashbacks when awake though, even when the kids are right in front of me, pretty intense stuff if I'm honest. Mary has suggested I take a break from therapy to have some CBT and EMDR therapies, no decision has been made, I'm just thinking about it right now. I had CBT a while back after my accident and it worked wonders for me, I could not leave the house due to being scared of becoming injured again, crazy stuff. I dont know much about EMDR but I gather it's something to do with eye movement, I'll look into it at some point.

Excerpt
think it is related to the trauma.  When I first started working on me, I had huge holes in my memories. and nothing much before the age of 5 or 6.  I still don't have a lot but what has happened is that over time as I work on things, I am remembering more.  I don't have much more of the trauma to remember anymore.  I am starting to remember good things and silly things like a pair of socks I used to love.  My point is that you may get some memories back as you heal.  I also noticed that when I 'remembered' the trauma memories, it was not so much that I forgot, but something I had always known just never looked at.  It is hard to describe.  I am not saying it will be the same for you though.  Just sharing. 

I appreciate you sharing because I can relate. Just the other day I remembered the day my biological died. I was looking through a photo album with my daughter and I suddenly said "oh look at me there, that was the day after my dad died", I dont know how I even knew that. i was suddenly taken back and i could see my face as my uncle told me, there was nothing on my face, no expression or emotion, just blank. A very weird feeling. I could look at me/him though which is progress I feel, or maybe I could do that because he wasn't looking at me? I could hear the bubbles from my uncles fish tank and other sounds, very surreal.

Excerpt
   does sound like it could be a learned behavior.  If our parents don't teach us by demonstration acceptance, how to self-soothe and care then we are left to work with what we have... it makes sense.
 

It certainly does.

Excerpt
 
LT, I am sorry for my delayed response

There is no need to apologise, it is just me waffling along Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) I do appreciate you taking the time to respond to me though, this is all very much a 24/7 thing in my head right now.

LT.
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« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2019, 10:42:01 PM »

Excerpt
I sweat, fidget and knock my leg, I also sit up straight and fold my arms in a defensive, I'm in charge kind of way
  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)  Okay, not really a thumbs up but yeah, I can relate.   I used to narrow my eyes at my T,  Most people would back off when I did that.  I swear I saw a twinkle in my T's eyes when I would do it.  (this was after I got more comfortable in therapy though)  Grrr...  Smiling (click to insert in post)  I liked verbally sparring with him but he always seemed to win.

Okay, time to be serious here...

Excerpt
I was having a very long and complex chat with my cousin last night and I think we actually got to the bottom of my "love" for my ex. Basically, I have come to accept (rather bitterly) that I did in fact have issues with my relationship with my mother, that stings to say but is a part of my journey I guess.
This is good.  Difficult, but ultimately good LT. 

Excerpt
I think I wanted love and acceptance that she could not give, only in her own way, I was her white knight that never fixed the unfixable. Couple this with the many forms of abuse I suffered at the hands of she who shall not be named and others has left me in a very confused state regarding my perceptions on what love actually is. My ex and she who shall not be named, I felt exactly the same way around them both, walking on eggshells, yet my experience with my mother compelled me to negotiate a solution to HER problems. Really interesting, upsetting and thought provoking realisations.
I agree this is interesting and quite revealing.  How are you doing the day after?  I am sure you are aware that it is not uncommon for us to get involved with and be attracted to people who are familiar on an emotional level often in an attempt to solve our childhood problems.  That, as you know, does not work very well.

Excerpt
My cousin gave me point blank last night what she thought of my relationship with my mother, I looked at her in silence for a good while before replying...ouch.
Is your cousin close to your age?  Care to share some of what she said and how you responded?  You obviously don't have to I am just wondering if it would help to write it out here.

Excerpt
no wonder the world frickin scares me, I grew up in some serious sh1t and it is no surprise when you look at the big picture that I attracted somebody like my stbxw, she musta saw me coming...that crap was NOT love, my relationships with my kids, that's love.
It was love as you knew love to be LT.  Was it healthy?  Nope, doesn't sound like it at all.   

One thing... okay maybe a few things I have to say here and disregard if nothing fits please.   We do what we know.  My definition of love and what love looks like and sounds like is very different than it used to be.  That does not negate the love I had for people, even or maybe especially, my mother.  Denying love, is I think, as damaging as denying our anger or hatred.  I am not sure what purpose there is in saying stuff like "It was never love" about my family or exSO though I read it all the time.  For me, looking back now, it was never healthy love back then, but it was what I knew.   I acted on what I knew and I made choices based on what I knew.  For me to go back and change my history is denial.  I was damaged and unhealthy so my love of course was the same.  Harsh reality for me.  Again, if that does not fit for you just disregard.  I am simply (to borrow your word!) waffling along.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

You get an advantage over me with having your love for your kids.  I don't generally regret not having kids, but I do regret not having certain experiences through them and this is one of those areas.  I can get close though with my nephew. 

Excerpt
Perspectives are changing by the day right now. Ye, the dreams are what they are I guess, I have flashbacks when awake though, even when the kids are right in front of me, pretty intense stuff if I'm honest. Mary has suggested I take a break from therapy to have some CBT and EMDR therapies, no decision has been made, I'm just thinking about it right now.
Things can get pretty overwhelming in the beginning and you are doing a lot of work between stuff at home, in T and here.  All I can say is ride it through.  It gets better.  Reach out here and even put more focus on posting to other people if you need to.  I found that helped me a great deal and helped me still work on things but in a less personal way if that makes sense.  I also think EMDR or CBT is an excellent idea when/if you want to do it.  Many people here have used it to process trauma and have good things to say about it.  At one point my T recommended ACT therapy.  Not sure if that is an option for you.

Excerpt
I could look at me/him though which is progress I feel, or maybe I could do that because he wasn't looking at me? I could hear the bubbles from my uncles fish tank and other sounds, very surreal.
I definitely think it is progress and I am so happy to read this.  You have been through so much.  Honor the boy you were and all he has managed to get through and all those coping strategies he implemented to keep himself safe.   As much as you may be struggling with those strategies today, they served you well when you needed them.  Think about it... you were pretty darn clever to figure out a way to survive.

LT, I am doing well thank you for asking though. 

Excerpt
this is all very much a 24/7 thing in my head right now.
Well, it's a good thing we are open 24/7 then right? 

We've got ya.   Welcome new member (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2019, 08:47:03 AM »

Hi Harri.

Excerpt
I agree this is interesting and quite revealing.  How are you doing the day after?  I am sure you are aware that it is not uncommon for us to get involved with and be attracted to people who are familiar on an emotional level often in an attempt to solve our childhood problems.  That, as you know, does not work very well. 

Well, I have all sorts going through my head which has been the norm of late. I think my ex was a mixture if you will, of my mother and she who shall not be named. She appears very vulnerable yet is very abusive. When I was 21 I went to bereavement counselling when my mom died and spent my whole time there spewing venom on that vile, evil creature. I think I blame her for the abuse she doled out on my mother because it denied me the mother I maybe deserved? This has helped (enabled) me to not question my moms parenting I think? Maybe this is why, for the best part, I did not question all too much my exes treatment of others, and maybe that's why i continued making excuses for her long after she imploded our family?

Excerpt
Is your cousin close to your age?  Care to share some of what she said and how you responded?  You obviously don't have to I am just wondering if it would help to write it out here. 

My cousin and I are the same age, she was probably the best part of my childhood. Well, I mean she said an awful lot and left me quite startled, shocked and sad. She told me that she has never felt so sorry for somebody, that my childhood was ridiculous and she thinks I honestly have no idea how abusive and destructive it really was, she said I am unaware and in denial about a huge amount. She was visibly upset and saddened talking about it? It was all a bit out the blue to be honest and left me scratching my head. We normally talk about how I'm dealing with ex issues (there was a lot last week) but the ex got about 10mins followed by hours talking about when we was kids. She told me my mother was a terrible parent, chose not to protect me, didnt give a crap about me, and kept me in a situation where I was systematically abused without help/response, she said I am in denial and trauma bonded to my mother and that's where my defence of her comes from? So we just sat in silence looking at one another, my heart rate was through the roof and I very much wanted to leave. I felt very defensive but went back to the time I threw my dummy out at Mary and how I felt afterwards. I'm 100% sure my cousin means me no harm, so decided to act like I wasnt fazed. But i was, i was sweating and felt very uncomfortable but i know she has nothing to gain by telling me these things. She knew i was pissed though and told me "tough, you need to hear it". She told me of other things that went on, things i suddenly remembered. I asked her to elaborate (through gritted teeth) which she did for hours, she said I need to understand that what happened was not right, fair, or my fault. A very, very tough and emotional conversation, seems to be happening a lot lately. I took it all on the chin and am fairly happy that the conversation took place.

Excerpt
One thing... okay maybe a few things I have to say here and disregard if nothing fits please.   We do what we know.  My definition of love and what love looks like and sounds like is very different than it used to be.  That does not negate the love I had for people, even or maybe especially, my mother.  Denying love, is I think, as damaging as denying our anger or hatred.  I am not sure what purpose there is in saying stuff like "It was never love" about my family or exSO though I read it all the time.  For me, looking back now, it was never healthy love back then, but it was what I knew.   I acted on what I knew and I made choices based on what I knew.  For me to go back and change my history is denial.  I was damaged and unhealthy so my love of course was the same.  Harsh reality for me.  Again, if that does not fit for you just disregard.  I am simply (to borrow your word!) waffling along.  

You get an advantage over me with having your love for your kids.  I don't generally regret not having kids, but I do regret not having certain experiences through them and this is one of those areas.  I can get close though with my nephew.   

I actually see what your getting at and to be honest, it makes perfect sense. That was what I saw as love back then, maybe it's more a case of accepting that my definition of love has/is changed?

There are tons of experiences with the kids I will never forget, the most poignant is their births, there are some experiences of joy in life that will never be topped, this is one of them, it is truly the most amazing thing to witness.

Excerpt
Things can get pretty overwhelming in the beginning and you are doing a lot of work between stuff at home, in T and here.  All I can say is ride it through.  It gets better.  Reach out here and even put more focus on posting to other people if you need to.  I found that helped me a great deal and helped me still work on things but in a less personal way if that makes sense.  I also think EMDR or CBT is an excellent idea when/if you want to do it.  Many people here have used it to process trauma and have good things to say about it.  At one point my T recommended ACT therapy.  Not sure if that is an option for you.
 

It is overwhelming yes, my intuition is on overload. I am developing a phobia of posting Laugh out loud (click to insert in post), I sound crazy. Me and my cousin also discussed my brothers and she urged me to not have any contact whatsoever with them, she went into detail about their treatment of me over the years and that I deserve better, that I need to surround myself with healthier people (Mary said this too). I do not understand how I'm not PD considering those who have been around me, did I get lucky? I'm not opposed to doing other therapies, in fact I welcome them, it's just that I do not want a break from therapy with Mary. What is ACT therapy? I've never heard of that.

Excerpt
definitely think it is progress and I am so happy to read this.  You have been through so much.  Honor the boy you were and all he has managed to get through and all those coping strategies he implemented to keep himself safe.   As much as you may be struggling with those strategies today, they served you well when you needed them.  Think about it... you were pretty darn clever to figure out a way to survive. 

Ya know, I told my cousin about this and was very surprised by her response, she said "yes, that's your inner child wanting healing, its normal" she told me the exact same thing happened to her? I mean that's just crazy right? My cousin and I have similar experiences elsewhere too, both lost our biological at a young age etc. She did therapy for years and I view her as a very confident, self aware, put together person, she knows her own worth and has zero self esteem issues, she was not always like this, she gives me hope. She too said i need to honour myself and see me as the awesome, humble person I am, I just laughed Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) but I see her point, she was not shy in her perceptions of how I view myself and how off/wrong it is. She said I am ready to listen now.

Excerpt
LT, I am doing well thank you for asking though.   

I am happy to hear this  Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

LT.
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« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2019, 07:16:50 PM »

Excerpt
I think I blame her for the abuse she doled out on my mother because it denied me the mother I maybe deserved? This has helped (enabled) me to not question my moms parenting I think? Maybe this is why, for the best part, I did not question all too much my exes treatment of others, and maybe that's why i continued making excuses for her long after she imploded our family?
It sounds like there are some connections with all of these things starting with SWSNBN and your mom. 

When you say "mom you maybe deserved"... can you be more specific?   Virtual hug (click to insert in post)  What would she do or not do, say or not say?  What's up with the 'maybe'?

Excerpt
She told me that she has never felt so sorry for somebody, that my childhood was ridiculous and she thinks I honestly have no idea how abusive and destructive it really was, she said I am unaware and in denial about a huge amount.
Okay.  Several of us can relate to that.  Reading about your discussion with your cousin I am torn between hugging her and you and also wanting to say I am glad yo sat through it rather than walk away.  It can't have been easy to hear and open yourself up to her words, but you did it.   Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
she said I need to understand that what happened was not right, fair, or my fault.
Your cousin is smart and I think cares about you quite a bit.  I too am glad you guys talked.

Excerpt
That was what I saw as love back then, maybe it's more a case of accepting that my definition of love has/is changed?
I think so, or I should say it works for me.  Smiling (click to insert in post) 

Excerpt
I am developing a phobia of posting  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
Smiling (click to insert in post)  Well, I hope you fight through that.  Do a bit of exposure therapy on yourself!  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) Seriously, post when you can and keep pushing yourself, but carefully.

ACT:  https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapy-types/acceptance-and-commitment-therapy

Excerpt
I do not want a break from therapy with Mary.
I think this is great that you are connected and tuned into therapy. 

Excerpt
She too said i need to honour myself and see me as the awesome, humble person I am, I just laughed but I see her point, she was not shy in her perceptions of how I view myself and how off/wrong it is. She said I am ready to listen now.
  With affection (click to insert in post)  I really like your cousin LT.   Look at how many doors are opening up in your life?  pretty amazing right?  She sounds like she really loves you (and of course she would ;) )

 Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2019, 08:45:27 PM »

You just keep chipping away Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
When you say "mom you maybe deserved"... can you be more specific?     What would she do or not do, say or not say?  What's up with the 'maybe'?
 

My mom was a very depressed and broken woman. I believe as do many, that SWSNBN doled out some serious abuse on her own children, they were all broken and non reached 50 (apart from the golden child). I think you need to understand the situation as it was, as I'm trying to. This creature would threaten to hit my mom and would hit her in front of us. My mom would do whatever she wanted for fear of reprisal. So you imagine me there, not allowed to speak or have the consequences. I'll give you an example. One day we were sitting and my mom asked me a question, I started to answer her when SWSNBN interrupted saying "you speak when your spoken to". Then she scolded my mother for asking the question in the first place. Me, like a plonker began talking again...I almost got to the door before a cup she threw smashed off the back of my head. As I sat there with blood pouring out my head, my mom started to get up and SWSNBN told her "you get up and I'll hit you" I got up and just about got to the back door as the rest of the cup smashed against it. Do you understand what I'm trying to get at? My mom was powerless to do anything, or do I have this wrong? My mom was 100% controlled and that's why I maybe deserved better, I was denied a mother in many ways.

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  Okay.  Several of us can relate to that.  Reading about your discussion with your cousin I am torn between hugging her and you and also wanting to say I am glad yo sat through it rather than walk away.  It can't have been easy to hear and open yourself up to her words, but you did it.

I'm glad I sat through it too looking back, it wasn't easy but I prefer things spelled out to me, then I can process and deal with it by exploring the points.

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Your cousin is smart and I think cares about you quite a bit.  I too am glad you guys talked.
 

Yes, she keeps telling me she loves me Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

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I think this is great that you are connected and tuned into therapy.   

I do enjoy talking to mary, she is a nice woman and I look forward to our sessions. Maybe a break would do me good though as I know the CBT will help with anxiety, I'm going to push for mindfulness and breathing help too, my mate got a lot from those. The doc has put me on anti d's too, wants me to stay on them at least 6 months, meds and therapy is the way forward he says. Thanks for the link  Smiling (click to insert in post)

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  I really like your cousin LT.   Look at how many doors are opening up in your life?  pretty amazing right?  She sounds like she really loves you (and of course she would ;) )

She's a great girl. Mary said I need that "one" person I can talk to about anything so as my cousin has done loads of therapy I decided to take the plunge and explain to her all about cluster b and CPTSD. She said she didn't need me to explain what's wrong with me Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) she already knew. She said she will be the "one", she would be honoured to help me. She obviously knows the things that happened, not all but I'm thinking of confiding in her something that has never left my lips.

It is strange posting here, it feels good whilst I waffle but the shame and embarrassment afterwards is crippling, might as well throw that in.

Thank you Harri  Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2019, 10:37:49 AM »

Hi again!  Yes, I am persistent.


Excerpt
My mom was a very depressed and broken woman. I believe as do many, that SWSNBN doled out some serious abuse on her own children, they were all broken and non reached 50 (apart from the golden child). I think you need to understand the situation as it was, as I'm trying to. This creature would threaten to hit my mom and would hit her in front of us. My mom would do whatever she wanted for fear of reprisal. So you imagine me there, not allowed to speak or have the consequences. I'll give you an example. One day we were sitting and my mom asked me a question, I started to answer her when SWSNBN interrupted saying "you speak when your spoken to". Then she scolded my mother for asking the question in the first place. Me, like a plonker began talking again...I almost got to the door before a cup she threw smashed off the back of my head. As I sat there with blood pouring out my head, my mom started to get up and SWSNBN told her "you get up and I'll hit you" I got up and just about got to the back door as the rest of the cup smashed against it. Do you understand what I'm trying to get at? My mom was powerless to do anything, or do I have this wrong? My mom was 100% controlled and that's why I maybe deserved better, I was denied a mother in many ways.
Yes, I do understand LT.  I also understand that as an adult your mom made choices, maybe not conscious choices, but choices all the same.   It is a matter of responsibility as a parent and an adult.  It is not about blame.  I understand making choices that keep us in an abusive situation.  We have talked about conditioned choices before.   It is the same as saying we were groomed, or in this case your mother was groomed to accept this sort of abuse and terror.  I also know what it is like to be a child caught in an abusive situation with an adult who seemed to be powerless.

As adults we can look back and use reason and logic.  The thing is, at the time of this event (and I realize it is just one example) you did not have the ability to reason and use logic that you have now.   Little LT is the one who was hurt, terrified and bewildered not adult LT.  That is what needs to be addressed here and looked at.  The emotional would which can only be fully healed when you look at the emotional part of it.  How do you think Little LT felt when your mom did not continue to stand up, did not speak out, did not protect you and defend you, did not say NO?   Did he stuff those feelings away and shut down because it was too painful and threatening?  

I think it is great that you can look back and feel for the position your mom was in.  I also think you are doing yourself and even her, a great disservice in not looking at this from the perspective you had as a child and how it affected you.  She failed you on multiple levels.  Loving someone and honoring them is done when we can see all sides of a person, not just the good or the bad and not through a lens of defense and denial.

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The doc has put me on anti d's too, wants me to stay on them at least 6 months, meds and therapy is the way forward he says.
Good.  I think you are in very good hands LT.

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It is strange posting here, it feels good whilst I waffle but the shame and embarrassment afterwards is crippling, might as well throw that in.
I know.   It is hard and it sucks right?  The best disinfectant for shame is sunlight LT.   Push yourself but not too far.  
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« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2019, 06:38:17 AM »

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  Yes, I do understand LT.

Thank you for understanding my perspective.

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   I also understand that as an adult your mom made choices, maybe not conscious choices, but choices all the same.

A sentence said by both mary and my cousin.

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  I understand making choices that keep us in an abusive situation.

Yes, I can relate in regards to my marriage, although I never realised that I was in an abusive situation, it was always about what I needed to fix, not the other way round, this way of thinking stems from my childhood and I'd put my life on the fact that it stemmed from my moms childhood too.

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  We have talked about conditioned choices before.   It is the same as saying we were groomed, or in this case your mother was groomed to accept this sort of abuse and terror.  I also know what it is like to be a child caught in an abusive situation with an adult who seemed to be powerless.

Yes we have and I understand it. When we eventually got away from SWSNBN my mother changed and became happier, yet she would drop anything to go to her mothers aid, as teenage lads we could not grasp why, you have helped me understand why. Looking back, being caught in that situation was terrifying and it saddens me to say that.

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  As adults we can look back and use reason and logic.  The thing is, at the time of this event (and I realize it is just one example) you did not have the ability to reason and use logic that you have now.   Little LT is the one who was hurt, terrified and bewildered not adult LT.  That is what needs to be addressed here and looked at.

Yes, it is just one event. There were times when my mom would be forced to help, hold me down etc, so I couldn't run away. It is true that my logic is different now but I feel as though it is very distorted. I look at other posts here and wonder at times what you are all going on about, like did that happen to me? Is that how I should feel? I dont know if you know what I mean and I'm not trying to cause any offence, I've come to the conclusion that it's because others are way further along in all this than I am, would that be accurate? Pete mentioned a lot of what you said here in his book. I am yet to pick it back up, i find it a very distressing read.

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  The emotional would which can only be fully healed when you look at the emotional part of it.  How do you think Little LT felt when your mom did not continue to stand up, did not speak out, did not protect you and defend you, did not say NO?   Did he stuff those feelings away and shut down because it was too painful and threatening?  
 

I have read and watched videos that state the way forward is emotional literacy, maybe this is why mary encourages me to journal. I find it very distressing to think about how I felt, it makes me feel almost numb and disconnected, beyond fear, totally submissive and unresponsive. I think he did stuff those feelings away and this in my opinion is why I have gaps where I can remember little to nothing, dissociation.

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I think it is great that you can look back and feel for the position your mom was in. 

Me too.

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  I also think you are doing yourself and even her, a great disservice in not looking at this from the perspective you had as a child and how it affected you.

It is because I always think of things from somebody else's point of view. My day to day is spent thinking of others and how I can help improve the lives of those around me, I simply do not come into the equation. I am not conditioned to look at things from my own perspective, bpdfamily has helped me see that this is important and gives me a safe place to express myself. I understand completely what you are saying but it is very alien to me. I feel extremely selfish that my focus is not 100% on my children right now after they have suffered so much. Problem is, all this is consuming me right now, it is very painful, yet I see the need.

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She failed you on multiple levels. 

Again, a sentence shared by my cousin and mary. It is very difficult to hear, it saddens me. I am coming to the conclusion that this is true, whether I like it or not, which I do not.

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  Loving someone and honoring them is done when we can see all sides of a person, not just the good or the bad and not through a lens of defense and denial

When me and my brothers ever spoke of childhood, it was always about how hard my mom had it and about how much we hated SWSNBN. Maybe these are unhealthy defence mechanisms that prevent us from looking at our own pain? Maybe I need to find a way past the defence and denial, a way back to myself.

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I know.   It is hard and it sucks right?  The best disinfectant for shame is sunlight LT.   Push yourself but not too far.   

Yes it does suck. I do not feel in a very good place right now, the best word I can use is "lost" or "empty". This has been going on a few months now and is draining me I feel. I'm putting things into perspective though and not panicking too much as I know beginning meds can heighten symptoms initially and you and others have said things will be more painful to begin with so I'm fairly optimistic I will level out at some point. I've had more ups and downs than I can count so I know I cannot remain in the same state for too long, I will push through  Being cool (click to insert in post)

Thank you Harri.

LT.
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« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2019, 10:48:31 PM »

 Welcome new member (click to insert in post)

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Yes, it is just one event. There were times when my mom would be forced to help, hold me down etc, so I couldn't run away.
So she did more than just be a passive participant.  How was she forced LT?  Does the rationale withstand the following test:  if it were you instead of your mother, would you stand by and allow SWSNBN to do whatever she was doing to you?  Would that make you an abuser or a victim or both?  Would the fact that you too were abused absolve you of responsibility?

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It is true that my logic is different now but I feel as though it is very distorted. I look at other posts here and wonder at times what you are all going on about, like did that happen to me? Is that how I should feel?
Could you be more specific?

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I dont know if you know what I mean and I'm not trying to cause any offence,
You can ask anything here LT.  The chance of my being offended are pretty slim.  Besides, we are responsible for our own reactions right?  So you take care of you by asking what you need to ask okay?  You not doing so is what would upset me.   Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

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I've come to the conclusion that it's because others are way further along in all this than I am, would that be accurate?
I have no idea really.  I can see how you have surpassed me in your attitude towards your mom in terms of having compassion and empathy... I do not have that when it comes to my dad and he never help me down for example.  who is farther ahead here?  Is that even a valid question when it comes to this sort of stuff?

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Pete mentioned a lot of what you said here in his book. I am yet to pick it back up, i find it a very distressing read.
Our friend Pete is quite smart.  Confession time:  I have not read the book straight through.  I look at parts of it as I need to, a chapter at a time.  Maybe I have read the whole book, but I still have to go back and re-read it.  Same with his stuff online.  It is hard to read it and that makes it hard for me to absorb some of it.  so take your time with it.  Bits at a time as you need it and as you feel capable. 

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I find it very distressing to think about how I felt, it makes me feel almost numb and disconnected, beyond fear, totally submissive and unresponsive. I think he did stuff those feelings away and this in my opinion is why I have gaps where I can remember little to nothing, dissociation.
That makes sense to me LT.   Remind yourself that you are safe now.  You have power that you did not have then and you have support and knowledge you did not have then.   The feelings are scary and quite awful I know.  They will pass.  It gets easier, I promise you that.

I think the fact that you find it distressing is a sign that you have compassion and empathy for the little boy you were then.  Imagine a child of your own experiencing that or someone you cared about.  Do for Little LT what you would do for the others. 


Excerpt
It is because I always think of things from somebody else's point of view. My day to day is spent thinking of others and how I can help improve the lives of those around me, I simply do not come into the equation. I am not conditioned to look at things from my own perspective, bpdfamily has helped me see that this is important and gives me a safe place to express myself. I understand completely what you are saying but it is very alien to me. I feel extremely selfish that my focus is not 100% on my children right now after they have suffered so much. Problem is, all this is consuming me right now, it is very painful, yet I see the need.
New perspectives, new considerations and new ways of seeing yourself and the world around you will feel alien and awkward and even wrong.  Keep doing it.  It will begin to feel more natural.  Being totally focused on others to the exclusion of yourself is not any better or any healthier than doing the opposite.   Look for balance here.

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I am coming to the conclusion that this is true, whether I like it or not, which I do not.
It is okay not to like it.  Liking something is not a requirement for acceptance nor is it a requirement for healing.

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When me and my brothers ever spoke of childhood, it was always about how hard my mom had it and about how much we hated SWSNBN. Maybe these are unhealthy defence mechanisms that prevent us from looking at our own pain? Maybe I need to find a way past the defence and denial, a way back to myself.
I think so.  Maybe look at tweaking your viewpoint to be more realistic.  The fact is your mom did have it rough and you did hate SWSNBN.  Now add in the other parts that have been hidden by denial and defense.   You will get a better and clearer picture of your mother that can only add to your view of her.  You will also get a clearer picture of you, finally able to see you without the distorted lenses you have been viewing yourself through.

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... I'm fairly optimistic I will level out at some point. I've had more ups and downs than I can count so I know I cannot remain in the same state for too long, I will push through
I know you will.  We can and will stand with you as you work through this LT.

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Thank you Harri.

You're welcome LT.   Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2019, 05:51:57 PM »

Excerpt
  How was she forced LT?  

I'll tell you a little story, but beware, it is pretty vulgar. I had issues with the toilet as a child, like I was scared to use it. This fear would lead to a "build up" and I would literally crap myself. I have no idea why this was but it lasted until I was around 10. I have been thinking about this and I cannot see any reason why this happened. If you have any ideas I'm all ears. Anyway, SWSNBN would get angry when this happened and threatened to rub my face in my underwear. I was in the kitchen and she told my mom to grab me and hold while she rammed my underwear down my throat. Not nice, and I do apologise if you find that disgusting to read, but it's a good example. SWSNBN also had a favourite "toy". It was like a small flexible whip made of coiled steel wrapped in leather. The slightest touch off of this thing caused a serious amount of pain so we avoided it at all costs. She would get my mom to hold us down while she whacked us with it so we couldn't run off. She would also stop my mom from feeding us by threatening her, this was a regular occurrence and we were all very thin, I was also very pale as a child, i think this had something to do with that.

Excerpt
  if it were you instead of your mother, would you stand by and allow SWSNBN to do whatever she was doing to you?  Would that make you an abuser or a victim or both?  Would the fact that you too were abused absolve you of responsibility?

Went straight for the jugular there Harri  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)
This is tough. I think this goes towards morals. No, I would not stand by, something would make me intervene. I think not doing anything would make me an abuser and the fact that I had been abused would not absolve me of responsibility.

I nearly short circuited typing that...

Excerpt
Could you be more specific? 

I mean you all seem very much more knowledgeable and more in tune to what has happened to you. I see huge honesty and self care. I dont know how I'm supposed to feel about things, I think of these things and I draw a blank at how I feel, I dont know what I feel, I am disconnected from my inner child I feel and must bridge the gap for healing to occur, I could be wrong here, I simply do not know, I am emotionally numb when it comes to little LT.

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  You can ask anything here LT.  The chance of my being offended are pretty slim.  Besides, we are responsible for our own reactions right?  So you take care of you by asking what you need to ask okay?  You not doing so is what would upset me.   


Ok, thank you Harri  Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

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  who is farther ahead here?  Is that even a valid question when it comes to this sort of stuff?

Again, I do not know. My mom was my world and her death devastated me beyond words, my whole life was full of empathy and compassion for my mom and still is, I do not have to work towards this because it is imprinted within me. Maybe I am lucky? I do not know.

Excerpt
  Our friend Pete is quite smart.  Confession time:  I have not read the book straight through.  I look at parts of it as I need to, a chapter at a time.  Maybe I have read the whole book, but I still have to go back and re-read it.  Same with his stuff online.  It is hard to read it and that makes it hard for me to absorb some of it.  so take your time with it.  Bits at a time as you need it and as you feel capable.  

This have surprised me massively. You are a vast well of knowledge Harri and have helped me see many things, many of you have for that matter. I have been to Pete's site but not read anything yet, like I said, I am finding this all deeply distressing and have decided not to read anymore for a week or so until I pull myself out of this depression I have sunk into.

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  I think the fact that you find it distressing is a sign that you have compassion and empathy for the little boy you were then.  Imagine a child of your own experiencing that or someone you cared about.  Do for Little LT what you would do for the others.  

Maybe this is true, who knows. I am trying to block him from my thoughts at present. I feel as though I cannot face him. I think it is toxic shame, I feel as though I am the cause of his pain and I do not know why. I am beginning to feel very lonely and dare I say it, abandoned. I feel a small bit of anger that I am left here to work through this myself whilst nobody is alive to maybe help or explain what happened to me. I dont mean to sound like a brat but it all feels really unfair.

Excerpt
  New perspectives, new considerations and new ways of seeing yourself and the world around you will feel alien and awkward and even wrong.  Keep doing it.  It will begin to feel more natural.  Being totally focused on others to the exclusion of yourself is not any better or any healthier than doing the opposite.   Look for balance here.

I shall try. You make a very good point. I have set aside some "me" time this weekend, I need a break sometimes maybe.

Excerpt
  I think so.  Maybe look at tweaking your viewpoint to be more realistic.  The fact is your mom did have it rough and you did hate SWSNBN.  Now add in the other parts that have been hidden by denial and defense.   You will get a better and clearer picture of your mother that can only add to your view of her.  You will also get a clearer picture of you, finally able to see you without the distorted lenses you have been viewing yourself through.

I think I am starting to build some resentment towards her to a degree I think. Maybe that's unfair to say? It certainly feels very wrong and treasonous, it feels awful, it upsets me and raises anxiety 10 fold. How do I look at myself in a distorted way do you think? I think it's because I do not understand what happened to me and why.

Excerpt
We can and will stand with you as you work through this LT.
 

I thank you again  Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

LT.



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« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2019, 07:33:28 PM »

I am sorry they both did that to you LT.  I am not disgusted by your experience rather I am angry that two people who are supposed to love, support, protect and nurture you instead violated you in that way.  Your mothers actions go beyond being a passive observer into being a willing participant LT.  Both of them would be arrested for child abuse at least if it happened today and they were caught.  That is criminal behavior.   

I am not sure why you had toilet issues.  It could be related to constipation issues (thinking of what you said about not eating properly); it could be a physical condition called encopresis, also related to constipation.   It could also be a psychological reaction to the abuse, fear, terror you experienced.  It may have been a way of you having control over something.  What I do know is you are not alone in that.  My brother had the same issue and my mother would humiliate and degrade him for it.   It was difficult and painful to watch it happen to him.

I also know it is not something that is fixed by degrading, humiliating and torturing the child.   You did not deserve what they did to you LT.  Not one bit of it. 

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I nearly short circuited typing that...
I am glad you worked it through and I am glad you did not short circuit.  I recognize the strength it takes to look at this stuff and write what you did and I am filled with respect for you. 

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... I dont know how I'm supposed to feel about things, I think of these things and I draw a blank at how I feel, I dont know what I feel, I am disconnected from my inner child I feel and must bridge the gap for healing to occur, I could be wrong here, I simply do not know, I am emotionally numb when it comes to little LT.
That sounds like it could be, at least in part, dissociation.  If it is, the emotions/feelings are there on some level, you are simply shutting them down.  Don't judge yourself harshly for using a survival tool.  Your response will change in time.   Besides, there is no right or wrong when it comes to feelings... right?

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Again, I do not know. My mom was my world and her death devastated me beyond words, my whole life was full of empathy and compassion for my mom and still is, I do not have to work towards this because it is imprinted within me. Maybe I am lucky? I do not know.
I know she was important to you and I respect that LT.  It is okay to love someone, even someone who hurts us.  I don't know if having empathy makes you lucky or not.  I think for a long time it distorted your view of your past and that protecting her with the image you had/have of her being a victim only might have been for your own survival as well.  gotbushels wrote tis in the thread on detaching
Excerpt
From the perspective of an adult child to the parent; to me this is knowing why we've had a deep need to rescue, save or fix our parent(s). Knowing a lot of those why's aren't our faults at all—e.g., the human infant need to protect parents from all harm, them being the protector of the infant during infancy; the human need to protect those of the same tribe/society from harm as a survival strategy to 'handle' the real fear of death. ...

Thoughts?

Excerpt
I am finding this all deeply distressing and have decided not to read anymore for a week or so until I pull myself out of this depression I have sunk into.
Good.  I know you know this, but I am going to say it anyway:  it is okay to take a break from this thread as well.  We can pick it up when you are ready and we are working at your speed.   Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
Maybe this is true, who knows. I am trying to block him from my thoughts at present. I feel as though I cannot face him. I think it is toxic shame, I feel as though I am the cause of his pain and I do not know why. I am beginning to feel very lonely and dare I say it, abandoned. I feel a small bit of anger that I am left here to work through this myself whilst nobody is alive to maybe help or explain what happened to me. I dont mean to sound like a brat but it all feels really unfair.
It is really unfair LT.  Nothing about this is fair or right.  Nurture and protect that anger.  I know that sounds weird and possibly counter-intuitive.  Anger is, I think, healthy in this case.  Anger can be motivating and productive especially when we direct it towards the appropriate places and we learn to control it.  Getting angry after being shut down is a sign that you are starting to heal and are making progress.  It is a sign (to me anyway) that you value yourself and know on some level that you did not deserve any of what happened to you. 

Feeling abandoned?  Well, you were abandoned in lots of ways, many of them criminal. 

Reading what you said about pushing away your little LT reminded me of what I did with my dad.  I was so angry at him, but very unaware of it (still working on this BTW).  Instead I was turning that anger and contempt against me.  It was in a thread some where here, where I realized that I saw myself as no different than my father.  The anger and contempt I had for myself is what I should have been directing towards him. 

I don't know if that applies to your difficulty in looking at yourself or not.   See if it fits.  If it does not resonate, thats okay.  Maybe revisit in in a few weeks or months. 

Excerpt
I think I am starting to build some resentment towards her to a degree I think. Maybe that's unfair to say? It certainly feels very wrong and treasonous, it feels awful, it upsets me and raises anxiety 10 fold. How do I look at myself in a distorted way do you think? I think it's because I do not understand what happened to me and why.
Why is it unfair LT?  I think you see yourself as having had some contribution to what happened, though I may be off there.  I also think you take responsibility for things that were not yours to take care of, most specifically your mom.  I do agree that the distortions are because you do not fully understand what happened, and because you have not labeled the events properly... yet.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Take things slowly LT.  I am glad you put time aside for yourself.  What will you be doing?

 Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2019, 08:55:57 PM »

 Welcome new member (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
  I am sorry they both did that to you LT.  I am not disgusted by your experience rather I am angry that two people who are supposed to love, support, protect and nurture you instead violated you in that way.  Your mothers actions go beyond being a passive observer into being a willing participant LT.  Both of them would be arrested for child abuse at least if it happened today and they were caught.  That is criminal behavior.    

Violation, criminal behaviour. Those thoughts never entered my head and have shown me a different perspective. That hurts, I never looked at it like that before. There was never any children's services involved apart from my brother, he was put in foster care because my mom couldn't cope with his schizophrenia. I lied at hospitals/drs/schools, maybe I should of spoke up?

Excerpt
  I am not sure why you had toilet issues.  It could be related to constipation issues (thinking of what you said about not eating properly); it could be a physical condition called encopresis, also related to constipation.   It could also be a psychological reaction to the abuse, fear, terror you experienced.  It may have been a way of you having control over something.  What I do know is you are not alone in that.  My brother had the same issue and my mother would humiliate and degrade him for it.   It was difficult and painful to watch it happen to him.

I do have IBS and I believe it is a by product of stress. I had it really bad when i was with my ex and it stopped as soon as i left. It flares up when I'm stressed, I'm suffering quite bad with it at present. I think I may be looking at psychological reaction. I did think twice about telling you about it because it is and was very embarrassing, that vile creature made me wear a nappy (diaper) to school to punish me. I find comfort in knowing it is not just me who suffered with this, I dont feel like a freak now.

Excerpt
  am glad you worked it through and I am glad you did not short circuit.  I recognize the strength it takes to look at this stuff and write what you did and I am filled with respect for you. 

Thank you  Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
  That sounds like it could be, at least in part, dissociation.  If it is, the emotions/feelings are there on some level, you are simply shutting them down.  Don't judge yourself harshly for using a survival tool.  Your response will change in time.   Besides, there is no right or wrong when it comes to feelings... right?

That's really interesting. I have been thinking why I am avoiding him and I never once thought it was a survival tool. It begs the question, why do I feel the need to shut down? The obvious answer is fear I'm guessing but what caused that reaction? Why did I not fight instead? Why did I not become aggressive myself? I have been thinking about my brothers a bit and I can see that they are very selfish and display some awful traits, I am nothing like them, I'm like the odd one out, the sensitive one. I dont see why they went one way and I ended up so fragile?

Excerpt
  Thoughts?

Wow, just wow. I'm speechless. My need to protect my mom/ex derives from fear, wow, that is unbelievable. It's a coping mechanism that protects me from a threat that is not real, but in childhood it was VERY real?

Excerpt
Good.  I know you know this, but I am going to say it anyway:  it is okay to take a break from this thread as well.  We can pick it up when you are ready and we are working at your speed.  

I'm not known for giving up, I will push through, I have a real bee in my bonnet that needs resolving and it's just getting started. I will continue with the book, I just need to level out first, I've waited 36yrs to unravel, I'm not waiting any longer  Being cool (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
  Getting angry after being shut down is a sign that you are starting to heal and are making progress.  It is a sign (to me anyway) that you value yourself and know on some level that you did not deserve any of what happened to you. 

Again, I never looked at it like this. I very much dislike being angry, it does not sit well with me but I can see that a bit of anger is a sign I'm in transition now and I'm rather pleased about that, thank you. Hmmm, maybe I do value myself? I dont know, I dont feel it.

Excerpt
Feeling abandoned?  Well, you were abandoned in lots of ways, many of them criminal.   

Maybe so. It is very weird for me to feel like that. I am a quiet person by nature but I am finding that I am isolating myself to the extreme right now (barring the kids). Maybe I am protecting myself? I dont think I have ever felt so alone, so raw, I cannot explain how it feels.

Excerpt
  Reading what you said about pushing away your little LT reminded me of what I did with my dad.  I was so angry at him, but very unaware of it (still working on this BTW).  Instead I was turning that anger and contempt against me.  It was in a thread some where here, where I realized that I saw myself as no different than my father.  The anger and contempt I had for myself is what I should have been directing towards him.  

I don't know if that applies to your difficulty in looking at yourself or not.   See if it fits.  If it does not resonate, thats okay.  Maybe revisit in in a few weeks or months.  

I do not know.

Excerpt
  Why is it unfair LT?  I think you see yourself as having had some contribution to what happened, though I may be off there.  I also think you take responsibility for things that were not yours to take care of, most specifically your mom.  I do agree that the distortions are because you do not fully understand what happened, and because you have not labeled the events properly... yet.   
 

Because she was a very fragile/broken woman, I almost feel like I am attacking her. I think I may feel responsible for not saving her from the crap she put up with? Maybe I'm off here? I do not know. Labelled the events? I do not understand.

Excerpt
  Take things slowly LT.  I am glad you put time aside for yourself.  What will you be doing?

I shall be doing some hobby stuff, some painting. I've "booked" in some meditation too, it is awesome at relieving chest tightness and I quite enjoy it, it's very relaxing.

I honestly got soo much from this post so thank you again, you are very good at opening my mind and offering new perspectives.  Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

LT.
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« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2019, 10:49:09 PM »

 Welcome new member (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
Violation, criminal behaviour. Those thoughts never entered my head and have shown me a different perspective. That hurts, I never looked at it like that before. There was never any children's services involved apart from my brother, he was put in foster care because my mom couldn't cope with his schizophrenia. I lied at hospitals/drs/schools, maybe I should of spoke up?
Yes, it hurts.  A lot of us here never told anyone, not teachers or doctors or police, even when child protective services were called, some of our members denied being abused.  If you spoke up would things have been better?  Worse for you?  In my case, I did not know that things were that wrong until I was older and then I chose denial.   Plus I was always told that what happened in the house stayed in the house.  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)  I think there are many reasons for not saying anything.  It might take a while to piece together why you did not speak out.  In the meantime, just accept that you did not.

Excerpt
I do have IBS and I believe it is a by product of stress. I had it really bad when i was with my ex and it stopped as soon as i left. It flares up when I'm stressed, I'm suffering quite bad with it at present. I think I may be looking at psychological reaction. I did think twice about telling you about it because it is and was very embarrassing, that vile creature made me wear a nappy (diaper) to school to punish me. I find comfort in knowing it is not just me who suffered with this, I dont feel like a freak now.
IBS is such a crappy situation (sorry... I had to say that!)  I am sorry it is bad now. 

It is embarrassing to talk about this stuff.  It is also freeing.  Remember, light is the best cure for shame.  Do you feel lighter?

Excerpt
That's really interesting. I have been thinking why I am avoiding him and I never once thought it was a survival tool. It begs the question, why do I feel the need to shut down? The obvious answer is fear I'm guessing but what caused that reaction? Why did I not fight instead? Why did I not become aggressive myself? I have been thinking about my brothers a bit and I can see that they are very selfish and display some awful traits, I am nothing like them, I'm like the odd one out, the sensitive one.
Those are excellent questions to ask. 
 
Excerpt
Wow, just wow. I'm speechless. My need to protect my mom/ex derives from fear, wow, that is unbelievable. It's a coping mechanism that protects me from a threat that is not real, but in childhood it was VERY real?
I find I use my fear to remain stuck in denial.   Are you a Dr. Who fan (the new one I mean)?  Peter Capaldi, in one episode, explained to a boy that fear is a super power as it saves you, the adreneline increases and you can think and problem solve, you are more aware of danger...  someday i am going to turn my fear into a super power LT.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
I dont see why they went one way and I ended up so fragile?
Personality traits you were born with, positive support outside the home, a pet, a good imagination, books, luck, good choices, all have been given as answers to 'what saved you'.  As for you being fragile?  I do not see you as fragile at all LT.  Sorry, I don't mean to invalidate your feelings but (!) I see you as strong and brave and fierce and smart as hell.   

Your brothers are damaged in ways that are different than you were and they express it differently.  They are not stronger than you.  Just different.

Excerpt
Again, I never looked at it like this. I very much dislike being angry, it does not sit well with me but I can see that a bit of anger is a sign I'm in transition now and I'm rather pleased about that, thank you. Hmmm, maybe I do value myself? I dont know, I dont feel it.
So many of us are afraid of anger.  I am not afraid of it but I do feel less than when I get angry.  I am getting better with not judging myself for it.  Some here are not comfortable with it or are scared of it.  I think our view of anger, especially if our parents raged and abused us, gives us a distorted view of anger.  In fact, many of us did not see anger at all, we saw out of control rage.   That is not the same as anger.

Excerpt
Maybe I am protecting myself? I dont think I have ever felt so alone, so raw, I cannot explain how it feels.
Maybe.  I think it is natural to pull in and isolate when feeling raw.  It is also not the best thing to do as you know. 

One last bit that may also not apply:

You have been used to carrying a heavy load of stuff around, guilt, denial, pain, shame, etc.  All of this work you have been doing is changing all of that.  You are losing some of your baggage LT and that is going to be a big adjustment especially as you begin to feel new things and take on new attitudes and perspectives. 

You are, in addition to everything else, getting used to carrying new stuff around.  It is going to take a while to adjust.

Excerpt
Because she was a very fragile/broken woman, I almost feel like I am attacking her. I think I may feel responsible for not saving her from the crap she put up with? Maybe I'm off here? I do not know. Labelled the events? I do not understand.
Maybe you feel responsible for not saving her.  Sit with that for a bit and see what you come up with.  She was fragile and broken LT.  Talking about your experiences is not attacking her.  It is okay to talk about her in the context of your life. 

"Labeled the events"  Well in my last post to you, I used the words criminal and violated,  I use the words abuse for some events you call sad and for some things you do not label at all.  Thats all I meant.

Painting as in art?  Or house painting?  Paint by numbers?  Smiling (click to insert in post)  Whatever it is, I hope you have fun with it. 

Excerpt
I honestly got soo much from this post so thank you again, you are very good at opening my mind and offering new perspectives.
I am glad this is helping you LT.  I have had the help and input from so many people here.  We all help and we all learn from each other.

Thank you for being so open to new thoughts and perspectives.
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« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2019, 11:09:41 PM »

Quote from: LT
I lied at hospitals/drs/schools, maybe I should of spoke up?

Kids aren't responsible for their caregiver's feelings and certainly not another's abuse. Families tend to adjust to preserve the famuly dynamic, even if dysfunctional. Someone ay my ex's little sister's school called CPS. The whole family lied to preserve the dynamic. Case closed.

When I was with her, and later when my ex told me stories, I believed her, but had trouble synthesizing the stories of a very violent dad (grandpa to our kids) with the friendly and affable man I knew.

What is presented to the world is another face, a False Face, often.

Should you or could you have reported?  Maybe. But again, you weren't responsible for that.  They were responsible for your abuse. SWSNBN, and your mother for enabling it.

5 years ago, teenage uncle may have been molesting now D7. I finally had to call the cops.  I was unhinged and unmoored with what I should do with what a not quite 3 year old told me. I found out later that my ex had told her mother about things the kids had said,  but grandma denied that her precious little baby would do anything like that.  All she had to do was put down boundaries, but no. Grandma was an enabler to abuse. There was a cultural issue going on (I was supposed to go to grandpa, The patriarch, to voice my concerns and defer to him),  but give me a  Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post) break. I knew the family had a history of hiding DV, so I went out on my own.

My kids seem good these days, but to this day,  I have trouble seeing their grandma at the occasional family event, despite the fact that she was the victim of a violent husband and a serial cheater. She hurt my kids. Period. The other complication is that my ex is from a culture that deifies motherhood. 

It's not your fault.  They were responsible,  not you.  
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« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2019, 01:46:56 AM »

 Welcome new member (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
Yes, it hurts.  A lot of us here never told anyone, not teachers or doctors or police, even when child protective services were called, some of our members denied being abused.  If you spoke up would things have been better?  Worse for you?  In my case, I did not know that things were that wrong until I was older and then I chose denial.   Plus I was always told that what happened in the house stayed in the house.    I think there are many reasons for not saying anything.  It might take a while to piece together why you did not speak out.  In the meantime, just accept that you did not. 

No, things would not have been better. There were threats made many times that there would be consequences if we ever bought "trouble" to the house. It never really entered my head all that much to be honest, yes I wanted out of there but it was more of a case of dreaming about when I would be free, as in old enough to leave.

Excerpt
  IBS is such a crappy situation 

I see what you did there... Being cool (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
  Do you feel lighter?

I actually do yes and it is strange, maybe this can give me the courage to talk about more troubling events, such as worse abuse suffered from my biological dad and others.

Excerpt
Those are excellent questions to ask.  

Yes. I have been thinking about this quite a lot. My brothers have displayed some awful behaviours. For example, one of my brothers tortured and killed his wifes kitten. There has been lying, cheating, theft and child abandonment. I could write a book and I feel that cutting them off was one of the best things I have ever done. Other family members too, some have found it funny what my wife did and have ridiculed me. There is nobody like me in my family and I have thought long and hard about it, I feel like I am on a completely different page to everybody else and I avoid most of them. When all this happened I did not go to anybody for help, there are reasons for this. It took me ages to open up to my cousin and although she gets where I am coming, i feel that i am way more sensitive, fragile and different than everybody else. Barring my cousin, it's like I'm not allowed to have feelings.

Excerpt
  I find I use my fear to remain stuck in denial.   Are you a Dr. Who fan (the new one I mean)?  Peter Capaldi, in one episode, explained to a boy that fear is a super power as it saves you, the adreneline increases and you can think and problem solve, you are more aware of danger...  someday i am going to turn my fear into a super power LT.  

I do not watch much tv so no, I've not seen it. It does make sense what you are saying though, fear does make you more aware, maybe that's why it is a go to response of mine.

Excerpt
Personality traits you were born with, positive support outside the home, a pet, a good imagination, books, luck, good choices, all have been given as answers to 'what saved you'.  

Hmmm, I'm going to have a good think about this.

Excerpt
  As for you being fragile?  I do not see you as fragile at all LT.  Sorry, I don't mean to invalidate your feelings but (!) I see you as strong and brave and fierce and smart as hell.  

I dont know what to say to that, I see you trying to compliment me though so I will say thank you.

Excerpt
 
Your brothers are damaged in ways that are different than you were and they express it differently.  They are not stronger than you.  Just different.

Yes, they are different in many ways.

Excerpt
So many of us are afraid of anger.  I am not afraid of it but I do feel less than when I get angry.  I am getting better with not judging myself for it.  Some here are not comfortable with it or are scared of it.  I think our view of anger, especially if our parents raged and abused us, gives us a distorted view of anger.  In fact, many of us did not see anger at all, we saw out of control rage.   That is not the same as anger. 

I was very angry yesterday and while I was, i was observing myself and thinking about why i was angry and my reaction to it. I noticed I became more quiet than usual, I basically shut down. I did not express the anger and those around me did not know that inside I was boiling. My son did ask why I was quiet, he asked if I was tired to which I replied yes. I could be wrong but I think that anger came from being panicked because of a perceived threat that wasnt real, I think it was loss of control that comes from fear. I literally had a time out and "spoke" to myself. I told myself it was ok and there was no danger, half an hour later, I was fine, weird no?

Excerpt
  Maybe.  I think it is natural to pull in and isolate when feeling raw.  It is also not the best thing to do as you know.  

I have been thinking about this and I think I know where it originates. When little and upset I was made to feel wrong for it, i was told "shut up, stop crying and put your face straight or I'll give you something to cry about". This made me shut down to avoid more punishment, it is a go to reaction, ingrained in me. I also think this is why i struggle to understand how i feel, i simply dont think about it, I'm more concerned with hiding my pain.

Excerpt
  One last bit that may also not apply:

You have been used to carrying a heavy load of stuff around, guilt, denial, pain, shame, etc.  All of this work you have been doing is changing all of that.  You are losing some of your baggage LT and that is going to be a big adjustment especially as you begin to feel new things and take on new attitudes and perspectives.  

You are, in addition to everything else, getting used to carrying new stuff around.  It is going to take a while to adjust.

It does apply, and I do understand. It is overwhelming yet freeing, the pain is worth it, I understand this will be a long process.

Excerpt
Maybe you feel responsible for not saving her.  Sit with that for a bit and see what you come up with.  She was fragile and broken LT.  Talking about your experiences is not attacking her.  It is okay to talk about her in the context of your life.   

It is all very confusing. I have wrote about my mom being forced to help, you call this abuse, why do I not see it that way? If I was on the outside looking in, i would call it abuse to. So why do i have sympathy for somebody who participated in these things? There were many instances so it wasnt just a one off. Why am i not thinking about how i felt, why is my mom the one that my feelings are directed at?

Excerpt

"Labeled the events"  Well in my last post to you, I used the words criminal and violated,  I use the words abuse for some events you call sad and for some things you do not label at all.  Thats all I meant. 

Yes, I see what you mean here.

Excerpt
Painting as in art?  Or house painting?  Paint by numbers?    Whatever it is, I hope you have fun with it.   

Miniature painting, really geeky stuff Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
I am glad this is helping you LT.  I have had the help and input from so many people here.  We all help and we all learn from each other. 

Yes, it is definitely helping. I have spoke about things here I have never said to anybody, it is fairly liberating.

Excerpt
  Thank you for being so open to new thoughts and perspectives.

No, the thanks is on you  Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

Turkish  Welcome new member (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
Kids aren't responsible for their caregiver's feelings and certainly not another's abuse. Families tend to adjust to preserve the famuly dynamic, even if dysfunctional. Someone ay my ex's little sister's school called CPS. The whole family lied to preserve the dynamic. Case closed.   

I think this is what has happened to me. It was very much a case of not being allowed to talk to people from the outside about what was going on inside. It was seen as being morally incorrect. I remember at one point, we actually ran away. My oldest brother was blamed just because he was the oldest. He spent literally weeks in isolation in our room. He was scapegoated and segregated for not following normal "protocol", as in, you do as your told. Any attempts to deviate from the accepted dynamics were met with violence and shaming.

I can relate a lot with what you said, thank you.

Excerpt

It's not your fault.  They were responsible,  not you.   

This is what I need to get my head around I feel, especially in regards to my mom.

Thanks to both of you.

LT.

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« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2019, 12:36:15 PM »

 Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
maybe this can give me the courage to talk about more troubling events, such as worse abuse suffered from my biological dad and others.
Take that leap LT, at your pace of course.  We are here.   Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
There is nobody like me in my family and I have thought long and hard about it, I feel like I am on a completely different page to everybody else and I avoid most of them.
I hear you.  Sounds like you are on a page in an entirely different book.  I am sorry you family members were not supportive while all this was, and still is, happening with your wife.  Most people don't get it and sometimes, due to their own issues, can be very cruel about it.  Keeping yourself safe from them is wise.

Excerpt
I dont know what to say to that, I see you trying to compliment me though so I will say thank you.
I am not "trying to compliment" you.  I am telling you how I see you.  Stating fact.  You're welcome.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
I literally had a time out and "spoke" to myself. I told myself it was ok and there was no danger, half an hour later, I was fine, weird no?
  Way to go! (click to insert in post)  You are applying what you learn in therapy and here (?) to real life situations and having success with changing your thoughts, centering yourself and recognizing and accepting your feelings.  You can call it weird.  I call it wonderful.

Excerpt
I have been thinking about this and I think I know where it originates. When little and upset I was made to feel wrong for it, i was told "shut up, stop crying and put your face straight or I'll give you something to cry about". This made me shut down to avoid more punishment, it is a go to reaction, ingrained in me. I also think this is why i struggle to understand how i feel, i simply dont think about it, I'm more concerned with hiding my pain.
Feelings were not allowed then.  So yeah, your responses, including hiding your pain, make sense.  You learned the dysfunctional coping skills taught to you quite well and they served you well back then.  Now?  Not so much.  What is the fear you feel about showing emotions telling you today? 

Excerpt
It is all very confusing. I have wrote about my mom being forced to help, you call this abuse, why do I not see it that way? If I was on the outside looking in, i would call it abuse to. So why do i have sympathy for somebody who participated in these things? There were many instances so it wasnt just a one off. Why am i not thinking about how i felt, why is my mom the one that my feelings are directed at?
If I had to guess, I would say it is because you were conditioned to put the needs, wants, feelings of others before you.  It wasn't safe for you to do so.  In that sense, I don't think you even saw you.  I know I didn't back then.  I was ambient noise, if that.  Do you think the feelings are there on some level and are possibly influencing your ability to focus on you?   

Could the sympathy, compassion and love you feel for your mom be, at least in part, a projection on your part?  We all project, it is normal human behavior.   It was safe and a survival mechanism to feel love for her and dangerous for you to feel that for yourself.  Take a look at Little LT and think about that for a bit.

Excerpt
Miniature painting, really geeky stuff
That sounds cool and relaxing and a great way to practice mindfulness!  I want pictures BTW.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

 Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2019, 04:14:20 PM »

 Welcome new member (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
  I hear you.  Sounds like you are on a page in an entirely different book.  I am sorry you family members were not supportive while all this was, and still is, happening with your wife.  Most people don't get it and sometimes, due to their own issues, can be very cruel about it.  Keeping yourself safe from them is wise.

It is what it is I guess. Looking at it, there has been a lot of people that I feel have used me for their own benefit, including family. I am not innocent in this, I have been taken advantage of because I allowed it. I no longer want people around me that do not have my best interests at heart. I have made other friends since me and the ex split, these are good people, people that I feel I can go to with issues, and they me. I would rather be alone and single the rest of my life than have somebody around me that does not think I matter, this is how I plan to move forward.

Excerpt
 You are applying what you learn in therapy and here (?) to real life situations and having success with changing your thoughts, centering yourself and recognizing and accepting your feelings.  You can call it weird.  I call it wonderful. 

Yes, I see the way you and others here explore your feelings very honestly, I think it's awesome. Also mary told me to just STOP and think about what's going on in my head in context with what is happening in reality. When you can identify the emotion that is being felt you can expand on the reasons why it is being felt, thus resolving and processing the emotion, freeing yourself from it. A bit of a mouthful but I hope you can see what I'm trying to say, I'm not saying its correct, I'm saying that in some instances it works for me.

Excerpt
  Feelings were not allowed then.  So yeah, your responses, including hiding your pain, make sense.  You learned the dysfunctional coping skills taught to you quite well and they served you well back then.  Now?  Not so much.  What is the fear you feel about showing emotions telling you today?  

What a great question. It tells me that I am preventing myself from expressing my own feelings/wants/needs with dysfunctional coping mechanisms, it is preventing me from being fulfilled and happy, I am holding myself back. I need to fix this  Smiling (click to insert in post) how? Practice I'm guessing whilst stepping out of my comfort zone. Building self esteem? What do you think here?

Excerpt
If I had to guess, I would say it is because you were conditioned to put the needs, wants, feelings of others before you.  It wasn't safe for you to do so.  In that sense, I don't think you even saw you.  I know I didn't back then.  I was ambient noise, if that.  Do you think the feelings are there on some level and are possibly influencing your ability to focus on you?    

I have said this before but thinking of my own needs is seriously lacking. Doing things for others is when I feel most worthy and happy. When I'm not doing something for somebody else I think "now what am I supposed to do?". I have also said that I do not hate myself but neither do I love myself, there is just a sort of nothingness, I simply do not matter to me. The more I think about it, the more I see it as incredibly sad, it's like I abandoned myself in childhood in order to protect myself, if that makes sense? Can you share your experiences here if you dont mind? I would greatly appreciate you explaining. Yes, I do think the feelings are influencing my ability to focus on me. I am like gold dust in a crisis, that's why my ex kept me around and that's why others see me as reliable, problem is I neglect myself, I do not know how to change this. I have set myself some alone time this evening and have had the place to myself for the first time ever. I feel selfish Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
  Could the sympathy, compassion and love you feel for your mom be, at least in part, a projection on your part?  We all project, it is normal human behavior.   It was safe and a survival mechanism to feel love for her and dangerous for you to feel that for yourself.  Take a look at Little LT and think about that for a bit.
 

You post the most fascinating questions at times  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post) I'm going to have a think on this.

Excerpt
  That sounds cool and relaxing and a great way to practice mindfulness!  I want pictures BTW.  

I finished painting some walking dead zombies, they are very cool.

Thank you  Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

LT.

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« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2019, 05:05:02 PM »

 Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) 
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You post the most fascinating questions at times  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)
Ummm... do I detect sarcasm here?   Love it! (click to insert in post) 

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I have made other friends since me and the ex split, these are good people, people that I feel I can go to with issues, and they me. I would rather be alone and single the rest of my life than have somebody around me that does not think I matter, this is how I plan to move forward.
Good.  Smiling (click to insert in post)   You matter.  You have value and you are worthy of respect, care, love and loyalty.

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Also mary told me to just STOP and think about what's going on in my head in context with what is happening in reality. When you can identify the emotion that is being felt you can expand on the reasons why it is being felt, thus resolving and processing the emotion, freeing yourself from it. A bit of a mouthful but I hope you can see what I'm trying to say, I'm not saying its correct, I'm saying that in some instances it works for me.
I do see what you are saying and I think it does work.  I have just never put it into words like you have here so thank you.    Understanding the why of something helps me to process.  Thanks for the words and the visualization I made of this in my head LT!

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I need to fix this   Smiling (click to insert in post) how? Practice I'm guessing whilst stepping out of my comfort zone. Building self esteem? What do you think here?
Yes to everything you said here!  I think starting small or breaking big things down into smaller pieces and then building on positive experiences.  One thing I do know is that feelings follow actions.  So waiting until you feel safe will not work.  That does not mean you just jump in and take risks all willy nilly like though.  Be wise and thoughtful and then take action.  Your feelings will follow.

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Doing things for others is when I feel most worthy and happy.
This by itself is not a bad thing.  It is great actually.   Now you just need to , like you said, love you.

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The more I think about it, the more I see it as incredibly sad, it's like I abandoned myself in childhood in order to protect myself, if that makes sense?
Yes, it makes sense.  It was protection and it was behavior that was demonstrated to you.  Your mom abandoned you to abuse, she abandoned herself and your brothers.  You learned to abandon yourself as well, through demonstration and abuse.  Ever read Kafka's The Metamorphosis?  I read that book when I was 17 and it still has an impact on me today, though I did not grasp the significance for my life until much later.  The theme of alienation on every level but especially alienation from self is what broke that character. 

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Can you share your experiences here if you dont mind? I would greatly appreciate you explaining.
I don't mind.  I can definitely relate to needing to do for others to feel okay and like I had meaning.  A lot of the reason I accepted the sexual abuse from my mom and did things 'willingly' (not really i now know) was to make her happy.  I felt it was my role, my duty, my purpose.  It was only when I got older that i can remember feeling so tired of fighting and thinking it was easier for me to just give in and let the abuse happen.  She was more important and I knew if I upset her everyone would suffer for it, not just me.  I was a lot to have to manage.  I was a good little dildo there.  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)  (yes, I get crude at times.)  Looking back now I can see the brainwashing/grooming whatever it is called in addition to the parentification and emotional incest and well... crud... I am getting fuzzy here.  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)  I have mentioned I am a work in progress right?  haha  Mild dissociation.  What I wanted to say next will come to me and when it does I will finish the thought.   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)  Ooops.  BTW, I see this happening as a good thing and left it in deliberately so you and others can see it happens and it is okay and I am okay.

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problem is I neglect myself, I do not know how to change this. I have set myself some alone time this evening and have had the place to myself for the first time ever. I feel selfish
Well, you are changing it.  You are going to therapy, you are posting here, you painted your 'walkers' (  Love it! (click to insert in post) ).  Keep at it!

 Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2019, 06:05:10 PM »

 Welcome new member (click to insert in post)

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Ummm... do I detect sarcasm here?  

No not at all and I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I think your insight is amazing and you set my thought processing into overdrive, this in itself is helping me to understand and see many things.

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  Good.     You matter.  You have value and you are worthy of respect, care, love and loyalty.

I enjoy being around others I can talk to on an emotional level. I never had this before, I could not talk to my ex about this stuff because she was not interested and was in my opinion, not capable of having a deep emotional conversation, she was not in touch with her emotions. I think moving forward, I need to surround myself with people who are in touch with their feelings. Right now I identify this as a need of mine. I want relationships where I can be who I am without constraints. I spoke to mary about this and she suggested I stop fighting who I am and just embrace and accept that I am who I am, and that's ok. This I think is key for me, surrounding myself with the right people can in theory, teach me self love, I could be wrong but being around people who I'm afraid to be myself around is clearly not working for ME.

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  I do see what you are saying and I think it does work.  I have just never put it into words like you have here so thank you.    Understanding the why of something helps me to process.  Thanks for the words and the visualization I made of this in my head LT!

Well it feels fantastic to give something back to YOU  Virtual hug (click to insert in post) I find it only truly works though if we are completely honest with ourselves. I think we can all BS ourselves, but honesty is definitely the way forward, whether it hurts or not. The problem I have is identifying the emotion to begin with.

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  Yes to everything you said here!  I think starting small or breaking big things down into smaller pieces and then building on positive experiences.  One thing I do know is that feelings follow actions.  So waiting until you feel safe will not work.  That does not mean you just jump in and take risks all willy nilly like though.  Be wise and thoughtful and then take action.  Your feelings will follow.

Yes, the jigsaw pieces, there is just so much that I feel at times like a mad scientist randomly jotting his thoughts down so he doesn't forget. It's like epiphany after epiphany. I am always a very careful planner so I see what you mean here.

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  This by itself is not a bad thing.  It is great actually.   Now you just need to , like you said, love you.

Yes, I do recognise it's not a bad thing  Smiling (click to insert in post)

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Yes, it makes sense.  It was protection and it was behavior that was demonstrated to you.  Your mom abandoned you to abuse, she abandoned herself and your brothers.  You learned to abandon yourself as well, through demonstration and abuse.  Ever read Kafka's The Metamorphosis?  I read that book when I was 17 and it still has an impact on me today, though I did not grasp the significance for my life until much later.  The theme of alienation on every level but especially alienation from self is what broke that character.     

Wow, yes, it was demonstrated to me wasnt it, I never thought about that. That must be where I got it from, whereas my brothers went incredibly selfish. I've not read that book no, but I'll put it on my list, it sounds very good and if you got something from it I'm sure I will too. I have promised myself that I'm going to carry on reading Pete's book tomorrow, gritted teeth and all.

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  don't mind.  I can definitely relate to needing to do for others to feel okay and like I had meaning.  A lot of the reason I accepted the sexual abuse from my mom and did things 'willingly' (not really i now know) was to make her happy.  I felt it was my role, my duty, my purpose.  It was only when I got older that i can remember feeling so tired of fighting and thinking it was easier for me to just give in and let the abuse happen.  She was more important and I knew if I upset her everyone would suffer for it, not just me.  I was a lot to have to manage.  I was a good little dildo there.    (yes, I get crude at times.)  Looking back now I can see the brainwashing/grooming whatever it is called in addition to the parentification and emotional incest and well... crud... I am getting fuzzy here.    I have mentioned I am a work in progress right?  haha  Mild dissociation.  What I wanted to say next will come to me and when it does I will finish the thought.     Ooops.  BTW, I see this happening as a good thing and left it in deliberately so you and others can see it happens and it is okay and I am okay.

It makes me incredibly sad that you suffered as much as you did and my heart goes out to you  Virtual hug (click to insert in post) I could relate to a lot of what you said unfortunately, I have my own experiences in that department that need processing. Thank you for explaining, I do appreciate it.

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  Well, you are changing it.  You are going to therapy, you are posting here, you painted your 'walkers' (   ).  Keep at it!
 

Yes, I guess I am, thanks again  Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

LT.
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« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2019, 01:02:28 AM »

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There is nobody like me in my family and I have thought long and hard about it, I feel like I am on a completely different page to everybody else and I avoid most of them.

take a hypothetical family with, for example, a bpd mom, and an npd dad, and a number of brothers and/or sisters.

the children will all vary in how they cope in life (they will vary in how they were treated by both parents). you might have one emerge with a full blown personality disorder. you might have one emerge mostly okay. you might have one somewhere in the middle. you might have one who is mostly okay until later in life.

there are a lot of variables.

bowens family system theory will tell you that a lot of it has to do with those family dynamics and our level of self differentiation. in the same way, some veterans went to war and came home a mess, and some came home and did okay, and some came home and did okay and struggled later.

psychotherapy is part of the process of self differentiating. it means we begin to see ourselves, and those closest to us (and how all of us relate) a bit differently; hopefully more objectively.

in struggling to mentally and emotionally survive as a child, you picked up some coping mechanisms that served you well. some of them may not serve you as well as an adult. psychotherapy explores this too, and it can be scary. it can be like being told the sky is actually green, yet it has far more direct impact on our lives.

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I have wrote about my mom being forced to help, you call this abuse, why do I not see it that way?

psychotherapy has a heavy focus on our mothers. a big part of this is that our mothers were our earliest attachment. its very different than our dads, for both obvious and less obvious reasons.

the idea of the therapeutic process telling you that your mother was abusive is utterly frightening. it, in a lot of ways, challenges our entire worldview. it, in a lot of ways, seems to threaten our very survival, because as an infant, we depended on our mother to survive.

thats part of why its scary and foreign. part of it is that we love our mothers, and psychotherapy forcing us to look at them a bit more critically is just unpleasant.

there is a great deal in front of you to process. it wont be easy. it will likely involve really complex emotions, swinging back and forth from loving and defending, to some really deep anger and resentment. ride them both. feel it all. ultimately, with guidance, its the way through.
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« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2019, 05:43:42 AM »

  Welcome new member (click to insert in post) OR.

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  take a hypothetical family with, for example, a bpd mom, and an npd dad, and a number of brothers and/or sisters.

This is one of the confusing aspects for me because I do not know what they were. My mom and her brothers were all fairly damaged, one was diagnosed a sociopath in the army. My mom did display traits of BPD now I've thought about it. I do not know a lot about my dad due to his death but all experiences of him were violent, especially the last time I saw him. Everybody is dead now so theres not a lot of investigation that can be done, it's all guesswork really but I think I'm not far off the mark by saying I come from a highly dysfunctional cluster b family.

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the children will all vary in how they cope in life (they will vary in how they were treated by both parents). you might have one emerge with a full blown personality disorder. you might have one emerge mostly okay. you might have one somewhere in the middle. you might have one who is mostly okay until later in life.    

Yes, I do see this. I also see that those that are not overly dysfunctional are shunned and cast out. I think with myself, I was not ok in my early teenage years but became distracted with my ex, that's why it has all come back to the surface now i feel, I'm starting to ask questions again and subsequently punished for it by some.

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psychotherapy is part of the process of self differentiating. it means we begin to see ourselves, and those closest to us (and how all of us relate) a bit differently; hopefully more objectively. 

This is exactly what is happening.

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  in struggling to mentally and emotionally survive as a child, you picked up some coping mechanisms that served you well. some of them may not serve you as well as an adult. psychotherapy explores this too, and it can be scary. it can be like being told the sky is actually green, yet it has far more direct impact on our lives.

You have such a way with words. You are right, it is very scary, I feel stripped back and exposed, it is a lonely, lonely place to be, I feel the impact.

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  psychotherapy has a heavy focus on our mothers. a big part of this is that our mothers were our earliest attachment. its very different than our dads, for both obvious and less obvious reasons. 

the idea of the therapeutic process telling you that your mother was abusive is utterly frightening. it, in a lot of ways, challenges our entire worldview. it, in a lot of ways, seems to threaten our very survival, because as an infant, we depended on our mother to survive. 

thats part of why its scary and foreign. part of it is that we love our mothers, and psychotherapy forcing us to look at them a bit more critically is just unpleasant. 

It does challenge our worldview. I cannot describe how much it hurts, I almost feel like I have maybe been betrayed. It reminds of when I first realised there was something wrong with my exes behaviour, that all was not as it seemed. Gaining that kind of knowledge is sobering and ultimately life changing. How could I not for 20yrs think she was selfish? I feel at times I can be incredibly naive and stupid, and that's exactly how I feel about my family right now, I feel like I do not know who they were and the effects they have had on my thought processes. I have no memories before 5, I think I blocked it all out, I think I learned these dysfunctional coping mechanisms very young which begs the question, what happened? Mary is convinced there is attachment issues to my mom, I can only listen, try to be open to new perspectives and take it all on board I guess.

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there is a great deal in front of you to process. it wont be easy. it will likely involve really complex emotions, swinging back and forth from loving and defending, to some really deep anger and resentment. ride them both. feel it all. ultimately, with guidance, its the way through. 

Yes, I see this. Resentment is something that is fairly new to me and makes me panic, it is very uncomfortable. I understand the dissonance for what it is and I also see that I will be up and down, I've been like it for a while anyway so what's more added on I guess.

I appreciate you chiming in here, i value your wisdom.

LT.
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« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2019, 04:13:50 PM »

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No not at all and I'm sorry if I gave that impression.
No sorries, I was just messin' with you.  I apologize.  I should not have done that.

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I want relationships where I can be who I am without constraints. I spoke to mary about this and she suggested I stop fighting who I am and just embrace and accept that I am who I am, and that's ok.
Yes to everything here.  Have I said before how much I like Mary? Smiling (click to insert in post) You both seem to work very well together.  Being able to be who you are is important. 

One thing I still remind myself of is that it takes time to find out who I can be me with.  Recently I am opening up more to a few people in my life and I am cautious and watchful.  Not so much about them but about me and my expectations and reminding myself I can handle whatever happens.  Yes, I understand the desire to be around people you can be you with and who are capable of emotional conversations.  It will come.

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surrounding myself with the right people can in theory, teach me self love,
I agree.  Even here on the boards, I am learning this as I read posts and respond to others I look at what I write to them and I think about how I view the members as I do so.  I contrast that with how they often see their own self.   I am learning from that and from the loads of compassion acceptance and understanding I receive here how to look at myself with new eyes and the same love, compassion and understanding for myself.   Even when someone calls me on wonky thinking or bad behaviors, I see it as an act of love and support.  It can be hard some days though and that is when I just need to slow down and breathe.  I get far more than I give LT.

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Well it feels fantastic to give something back to YOU
Read what I wrote just above.  You *have been giving something back to me* by hearing me, working on you and helping me as well.  We can't always see what seeds we plant can we?   Thank you.  This recovery business is much better when we have people walking beside us.

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I think we can all BS ourselves, but honesty is definitely the way forward, whether it hurts or not. The problem I have is identifying the emotion to begin with.
Again, I agree.  Have you ever heard of an Feelings Wheel?  There are many online that are excellent in helping us identify emotions and trace tertiary and secondary emotions back to core emotions.  We can't work on something unless we identify it right?  BTW, our very own Woolspinner2000 is the one who first introduced me to the feelings wheel.   If you haven't used one before,you work from the outside in (though sometimes I do it whatever makes sense for me).

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Wow, yes, it was demonstrated to me wasnt it, I never thought about that.
Yes.  Kids learn through observation in addition to what they see and hear.  Sometimes I think about this so much I get a bit overwhelmed as it seems to impossible to break the generations of dysfunctional behaviors that so many of us, nons, c-ptsd, addicts (pick a label) have.   One person, me, at a time right?

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I have promised myself that I'm going to carry on reading Pete's book tomorrow, gritted teeth and all.
How's that going?

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It makes me incredibly sad that you suffered as much as you did and my heart goes out to you   Virtual hug (click to insert in post) I could relate to a lot of what you said unfortunately, I have my own experiences in that department that need processing. Thank you for explaining, I do appreciate it.
Thank you.  I am here when you are ready to talk about it.  I may not have answers but I will certainly walk beside you.  You do not have to keep all of this "stuff" inside LT, not any more.

 Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2019, 05:51:50 PM »

 Welcome new member (click to insert in post)

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Yes to everything here.  Have I said before how much I like Mary?  You both seem to work very well together.  Being able to be who you are is important 

Yes, you have said you like mary before. She also said what you wrote about it being important to be myself. I'm starting to think I've never been "myself", maybe I wasnt allowed or maybe I dont feel worthy? Maybe I am scared to be myself because it was not met with validation as a child? Just thinking out loud.

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One thing I still remind myself of is that it takes time to find out who I can be me with.  Recently I am opening up more to a few people in my life and I am cautious and watchful.  Not so much about them but about me and my expectations and reminding myself I can handle whatever happens.  Yes, I understand the desire to be around people you can be you with and who are capable of emotional conversations.  It will come. 

I think being cautious and watchful is not a bad thing as we know there exists others who would not wish us well. This probably started in early childhood when we were taught telling "outsiders" what goes on in the house is forbidden? Maybe being weary of others is both fear and learned behaviour? It is good that you are opening up to others but even better that you understand your emotional expectations are yours to accept and control.

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  I agree.  Even here on the boards, I am learning this as I read posts and respond to others I look at what I write to them and I think about how I view the members as I do so.  I contrast that with how they often see their own self.

Ha! I do this too  Smiling (click to insert in post)

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I am learning from that and from the loads of compassion acceptance and understanding I receive here how to look at myself with new eyes and the same love, compassion and understanding for myself.   Even when someone calls me on wonky thinking or bad behaviors, I see it as an act of love and support.  It can be hard some days though and that is when I just need to slow down and breathe.  I get far more than I give LT. 

I am learning a greater understanding of myself here and I do see that I'm looking at myself with new eyes (slowly). The same love? I'm not so sure I'm quite there yet but I can understand you saying that. I'm glad that you have compassion for yourself through your time here. I never thought that being called out on "wonky thinking" is an act of love and support, you again highlight things for me to think on. It can be hard sometimes, I understand that completely. If you get more than you give then you must be getting loads, your contributions here are very selfless  Smiling (click to insert in post)

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  Read what I wrote just above.  You *have been giving something back to me* by hearing me, working on you and helping me as well.  We can't always see what seeds we plant can we?   Thank you.  This recovery business is much better when we have people walking beside us.

No, we cant see it but I'm happy to be planting seeds. I never thought of this as having others walk beside us, I find that description very soothing.

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Again, I agree.  Have you ever heard of an Feelings Wheel?  There are many online that are excellent in helping us identify emotions and trace tertiary and secondary emotions back to core emotions.  We can't work on something unless we identify it right?  BTW, our very own Woolspinner2000 is the one who first introduced me to the feelings wheel.   If you haven't used one before,you work from the outside in (though sometimes I do it whatever makes sense for me). 

No I've never heard of one but I will be clicking that link when I get chance. I'm guessing it's something similar to what I spoke about regarding exploring feelings and then expanding? I did something similar again today when hearing from the divorce people. I traced the feelings all the way back to fear, fear seems to be my core emotion the majority of the time, I feel like it maybe controls me?

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Yes.  Kids learn through observation in addition to what they see and hear.  Sometimes I think about this so much I get a bit overwhelmed as it seems to impossible to break the generations of dysfunctional behaviors that so many of us, nons, c-ptsd, addicts (pick a label) have.   One person, me, at a time right? 

It is overwhelming right? It is very sobering and in my opinion, extremely sad. I dont think it is impossible to break the generational behaviour, it will just take awareness and acceptance from many generations. An uphill battle yes, but possible. Yes, one person at a time.

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How's that going? 

I was hoping you wouldn't ask. I have not read anymore yet, I am avoiding it I feel. I find it very distressing, it's like being confronted with a very uncomfortable truth, it makes me wonder why I put up with that crap.

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Thank you.  I am here when you are ready to talk about it.  I may not have answers but I will certainly walk beside you.  You do not have to keep all of this "stuff" inside LT, not any more. 

I was thinking the other day that it is great that I am talking about this stuff, it dawned on me that I no longer feel anywhere near as shameful as I did, it is freeing, liberating and I feel as though it is very good for me. Other things did happen when I was a child, things that I find excruciating to think about. These things did not involve parents but a brother. Very embarrassing, very shameful things that I wish I could erase from my mind. I do not know where I stand on these things and whether it was abuse to begin with, I am confused and I'm going to go crawl in a hole now.

LT.


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« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2019, 06:54:19 PM »

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I'm starting to think I've never been "myself", maybe I wasnt allowed or maybe I dont feel worthy? Maybe I am scared to be myself because it was not met with validation as a child? Just thinking out loud.
Maybe it was a combination of things.  Sometimes there are so many layers to why we are the way we are.  What you mentioned can certainly do it.  I know part of it for me was that when I was myself, other people got hurt and suffered for it.  If I got in trouble my mother punished herself and by doing so punished not just her, but me and my father and brother.  I was responsible for others hurting just by being myself.  Does that part resonate?

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Maybe being weary of others is both fear and learned behaviour?
I think so yes.   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

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It is good that you are opening up to others but even better that you understand your emotional expectations are yours to accept and control.
Thank you.  Sounds like the same can be said about you.

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I never thought that being called out on "wonky thinking" is an act of love and support, you again highlight things for me to think on.
  Smiling (click to insert in post) Execution and tone matter of course, but yeah.  We see it often on the boards and usually there are some really good outcomes.  It can be difficult though and that I also see as a positive as to hear the message and the support and acceptance behind it requires using a lot of the skills we are still learning.  When someone is open to hearing us though and even challenges us back?  Beautiful things can happen.  Sheesh, I just read back and all this sounds so mushy... Smiling (click to insert in post)  apparently the poetic wax is flowing this evening.   And yes, you too are planting seeds LT!  Thank you.

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I'm guessing it's something similar to what I spoke about regarding exploring feelings and then expanding? I did something similar again today when hearing from the divorce people. I traced the feelings all the way back to fear, fear seems to be my core emotion the majority of the time, I feel like it maybe controls me?
It certainly sounds similar now that you mention it.  I was not making that connection before.  Do you want to explore this core feeling of fear you have?  If you do, I am in!  Fear is at the center of so much for me and I am still sorting it out.

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I dont think it is impossible to break the generational behaviour, it will just take awareness and acceptance from many generations. An uphill battle yes, but possible. Yes, one person at a time.
Thanks for this more hopeful view.

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I was thinking the other day that it is great that I am talking about this stuff, it dawned on me that I no longer feel anywhere near as shameful as I did, it is freeing, liberating and I feel as though it is very good for me.
Reading this made my day... it also filled me with happy tears too. 

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Other things did happen when I was a child, things that I find excruciating to think about. These things did not involve parents but a brother. Very embarrassing, very shameful things that I wish I could erase from my mind. I do not know where I stand on these things and whether it was abuse to begin with,
You are safe now LT.  What happened to you, whatever was done to you, is in the past.  When you are ready, talk about these events so you can name them and then work on healing.  Walking with the excruciating images and thoughts bottled up inside has to be holding you down and back.  You do not need to carry that stuff any more LT and you do not need to examine it alone either.

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I am confused and I'm going to go crawl in a hole now.
Okay.  I am okay that you are not okay right now.  I know from talking with you that you will be and when you are ready, you'll come back out.

I am patient.  Sometimes slow, but patient all the same.
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« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2019, 06:35:49 PM »

Staff only

This thread reached the post limit and has been locked and split.  Part 3 is located here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339793.msg13079078#msg13079078

Thank you.
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