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Author Topic: Part 2: Trying to process uBPD mom's "apology"  (Read 923 times)
ProudDad12
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« on: September 10, 2019, 10:58:20 AM »

Mod Note:  Part 1 of this thread is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339155.0;all

My immediate thought is that, it your father wants to see the children while he is in town, he can reach out to you. Your brother is still trying to bring your dysfunctional family back to its previous comfort level, and he's inserting himself between you and your parents.

Yeah, I've been trying to tell myself that. Though his words tend to serve as the wrecking ball in conflicts, so I can't say anything he would say would be helpful. Heck, I bet I can use one hand to count the number of times he's apologized to anyone in his entire life.

So my LC means I am in control, I see Mom when I want to and do not see her if she is acting out. Easier said then done, I realize, I am in my 60's and have had lots of time to work on this. My point here is that you are entitled to make your own decision,. and if you feel it's important for your kids to see their grandpa, and if your wife is OK with it, make that your choice, not something you feel bad about or forced into.

I was trying to do something similar, but it wasn't working. Less contact with my FOO just meant increased tension and resentment on their end from the reduced exposure to our children, providing the fuel for events like the one that set all this in motion back in July. Even us making day trips to see them (we live 2 hours away) cause problems because then it's that we're not staying overnight.

As far as my kids seeing my parents, I think that choice is more or less off the table. My wife wants nothing to do with my FOO at this point, and so she definitely won't be OK with them seeing them. And I have no idea if those fences can ever be mended at this point.


And the problems continue today. My mom texted me again this morning. Actually nothing particularly wrong with the text on the surface, just saying she's sorry all this is happening (note: still no ownership in there), and that she just wants to hear from me to make sure I'm OK (note: I am very much not OK), even if it was just me saying I don't want to talk.

So, that put me back into crisis mode, trying to figure out what to do. Once again, a simple response would be easy enough, and I was trying to decide if that was appropriate. At the same time, I'm afraid what would come back through the door if I opened it. This is during my work day, while my wife is still sick (yeah, I'm struggling to focus). Anyway, I had analysis paralysis for a while. I didn't say anything to my wife because I don't want her stressed out while she's trying to get better.

And then my dad texts my wife. Saying my mom is trying to reach me but she, my therapist, my pastor, etc. is keeping me from responding to her. And he asked her to give me permission to respond to my mom.

So what the heck? Now if I respond, it looks like I've just validated his stance on that. Never mind the fact that once again we're back to characterizing my wife as the controlling and manipulative Yankee New Jersey Devil. He needs to stop.

I feel like I keep going in circles with my whining here, and I'm sorry for that. But they're doing an awesome job at keeping me guessing and continually questioning every single step. Maybe blocking them is the best bet. I don't know. That just hasn't felt right considering the health stuff going on. But I don't know how we'll ever catch our breath long enough to heal a little as long as we're getting weekly communication to deal with. And to be honest, the questioning of what to do each time, and associated guilt, might be the hardest part here.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 02:48:39 AM by Harri » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2019, 11:20:12 AM »

ProudDad,

They are blowing a lot of FOG your way.  Making you feel Obligated and Guilty so you will respond...to me they are trying to boundary bust.   

Is there really anything to respond to? Nothing has changed. They are trying to induce JADE so they can start up the cycle of drama again, particularly by blaming your wife for things...see the Triangle, they are the victims, your wife is the persecutor and then you get to be the rescuer.  Stay off the Triangle.

Let it go, you are not a bad person for not responding you are just not playing the game.

Hang in there  Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
Panda39
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« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2019, 11:58:50 AM »

If your core family needs time to heal, and the only way to stop the bombardment is to blick, then do it.

 "No" is a complete sentence, even when you are saying it only to yourself.
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ProudDad12
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« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2019, 07:47:55 AM »

Thanks Panda and GaGrl for the encouragement. I'm working to internalize these things. Unfortunately the fact that I haven't blocked them yet is making friction between me and my wife now, who's still in bed sick.

Also got the bombshell I've been bracing myself for in the form of a 2:30am text from my mom (didn't see it till this morning). My dad's biopsy results came back, and according to her, my dad has an aggressive form of cancer. So in addition to the standing issues, that's going to wreak havoc on my psyche in the context of all this. And as terrible as this is to say, it's going to give them the ultimate weapon/boost for their FOG, and I know it will get used to full effect. The fact that my mom ended her text with "I'm still unsure how all this is OUR fault" suggests it may already be starting. Though I've never sent a text to my NC adult child in the middle of the night after finding out about my spouse's cancer diagnosis, so maybe I should hold my breath a little longer.

I feel like the ante is being raised faster than I can compensate/cope. This is hard enough without stakes that may cause me to regret my actions the rest of my life. And I feel like there is no way out of this without severe hurt or regret in any direction. Pretty sure my friends are tired of hearing from me about all this.

I apologize if I'm coming across as ignoring sound advice being given here. Definitely not my intent, it's just sometimes hard to learn to walk it. Also sorry my threads have to keep getting split... I don't mean to be this needy.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 08:03:04 AM by ProudDad12 » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2019, 11:42:28 AM »

ProudDad,

It's okay to be "needy" we have all had periods like you are going through where things get more escalated/dramatic/chaotic/stressful and we require more support.  This site is here for support giving and receiving it. Our advice is just that advice, you know yourself and the rest of the players best, just pick and choose what works for you.

I hear how uncomfortable this is for you and you're right mom just upped the ante with the "aggressive cancer" diagnosis.  I'll be honest that I am not sure I believe the "aggressive" part (very dramatic) but there is also nothing else to go on except what she's told you, so for now I would just assume she's telling the truth.  Do you think your dad would give you permission to speak with his doctor?  My partner always had to go to "the horses mouth" so to speak to get accurate information...he had to go to the source...doctors, teachers, parents of the kids friends etc.

Excerpt
I feel like the ante is being raised faster than I can compensate/cope. This is hard enough without stakes that may cause me to regret my actions the rest of my life. And I feel like there is no way out of this without severe hurt or regret in any direction.

Nothing has to be set in stone, what you choose to do can change as the circumstances change.  What I'm hearing in the quote above is that you are maybe feeling squeezed between your family/you and your wife/you. Accepting your family as it is now (not what they should be, what you hope they will be but as they are...as dysfunctional as they are) what kind of relationship if any do you think you can have with them?  Your wife has made her choice she is no longer interested in a relationship with them and that's fine she doesn't have to.  But her decision does not necessarily need to be your decision too.  There is a lot of ground between letting your family fully engulf you and No Contact.

My Partner's daughters are an example of this...D23 is no contact (she was badly burned by her mom and for now can not have her in her life...she's heading back to Therapy so we will see if anything changes) but D18 is low contact still texts and talks to her mom and very occasionally sees her for lunch or coffee.  This has been a mixed bag she sometimes still gets hurt, like taking her mom to lunch on Mother's Day and instead of visiting with her daughter mom played on her phone the whole time and then tried to pressure her daughter to pay for her Uber ride home.  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post) This low level contact though sometimes difficult does help keep the guilt that D18 would have with No Contact at bay.  If mom gets particularly difficult D18 will lower the contact to protect herself...it's about enforcing her boundaries. Mom was not invited to lunch for Mother's Day this year as it was not appreciated last year, but D18 is still in touch with her mom.

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« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2019, 12:28:35 PM »

Thank you.

My wife had the same thought about the "aggressive" part. Unfortunately with the status the way it is (I know they are all angry with me over the NC), I can't imagine I could get permission to talk to the doctor. Apparently my SIL is posting happy go lucky videos on her Instagram this morning like nothing's changed, so there's that, not that it necessarily means anything.

I honestly don't know how I feel or what to think at this point. Part of me thinks about how, if this is true, I need to be considering whether I need to give my children some time with him. At the same time, I have a hard boundary that they are not to talk about or characterize my wife the way they have, and they are continuing to do so at every turn, and the NC is just making it worse because they blame her for it. Almost every text, even the apologetic ones, have a veiled diss or blame on my wife, nullifying any good in the text. So I can't imagine just up and taking our kids to see them with that hanging over everything. Not to mention I think it would betray my wife's feelings to try to take our kids to see the people who have been relentlessly and unapologetically attacking her all while blaming her for it.

TLDR: They wipe their butts with this solid line in the sand, my dad has been a complete a-hole to us the past month or so, and the idea of the cancer being a get out of jail free card seems wrong. As if there is anything right about this situation.

You know what's really messed up? I blocked them on my phone this morning. My mom texts me about the cancer stuff, and my response is to finally freaking block them. I did it unceremoniously and with minimal emotion after about 3 hours of laying on the couch in an emotional stupor. I don't know why I did it. I think it was some subconscious self preservation kicking in, scared of what I might do if I get pressed by them just a little harder.

This situation is just so messed up. And I'm beyond asking friends for advice at this point. I'm on my counselor's cancellation list; my next meeting isn't for another 2 weeks. Meanwhile I'm berating myself for hoping a friend or counselor will come in and be a Rescuer (the role I supposedly need to be filling for everyone else). The exit off the triangle is in the Persecutor role, right? I think I'm solidly sitting in that role now, looking around for the exit sign.
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« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2019, 04:13:03 PM »

I honestly don't know how I feel or what to think at this point. Part of me thinks about how, if this is true, I need to be considering whether I need to give my children some time with him.
 

Have your kids asked to see your dad?  If not I would leave it be.  If your parents can't be respectful of you and your wife then why send your kids to spend time with them?  Would you send them to spend time with other disrespectful people who aren't family?

You know what's really messed up? I blocked them on my phone this morning. My mom texts me about the cancer stuff, and my response is to finally freaking block them. I did it unceremoniously and with minimal emotion after about 3 hours of laying on the couch in an emotional stupor. I don't know why I did it. I think it was some subconscious self preservation kicking in, scared of what I might do if I get pressed by them just a little harder.

I see a couple things in your reaction to block, one is they upped the ante and so did you in how you are enforcing your boundary, and the second is the whole thing is exhausting and you need a break from it all and by blocking them you are getting some peace and quiet from the constant bombardment including a text at 2:30am!

By blocking them and not engaging in the drama you have removed yourself from the drama triangle.

Self Care is your friend right now, try and take time for you, do things you enjoy or that make you feel better.  Maybe a movie with the kids (2 hours of escapism), a walk outside (exercise/sunshine), do something nice for your wife since she's not feeling well (it feels good to help someone else), eat well, take a nice bubble bath...



Hang in there,
Panda39
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Skip
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« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2019, 04:55:42 PM »

I'm late to this story and have only read a few posts to get the general gist, but I have some thoughts.

Let's scrap the idea of personality defects for a minute and just look at this as a typical aging parents, two brothers with different styles, and one wanting to exercise autonomy and independence...

This is not an unusual situation.
         Three Jewish mothers are sitting on a bench, arguing over which one’s son loves her the most. The first one says, “You know, my son sends me flowers every Shabbos.”

“You call that love?” says the second mother. “My son calls me every day!”

“That’s nothing,” says the third woman. “My son is in therapy five days a week. And the whole time, he talks about me!”

At the same time, I have a hard boundary that they are not to talk about or characterize my wife the way they have, and they are continuing to do so at every turn, and the NC is just making it worse because they blame her for it.

Of course they do. It's the most non-constructive way to deal with this.

Going NC with them (or LC), especially with kids, is probably also non-constructive.

If we just went to the storage closet for off the shelf solutions, the card would say, change the game (rather than argue the rules of the old game) and send the wife in to be the re-connector and work with the most constructive parent.

Change the game - find  new way to stay connected that still affords you the autonomy that you seek.
Wife and the key to re-connection - let he be the diplomat that mends the family - they will love her for it.

Affect your boundaries, not by drawing battle lines in the sand - do it covertly by changing the game. The start point could be anything - wife going to mom, alone, to suggest a plan family event at Thanksgiving that is different that what has been done before.

Anyway, just a concept to kick around.

Skip

PS: Add back PD to the mix so wife has the tools to not get eaten up.

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« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2019, 05:22:30 PM »

ProudDad, I am a big fan of changing the game.   It worked well for me when dealing with my parents and brother.  I was the bad one who ruined/destroyed the family (in their eyes) and the game was theirs... with no way for me to win.  Heck, I could not even tie the game up.  So I finally did a bit of what Skip talks about here.

Skips suggestions to change the game allows the possibility for a win/win solution for everyone.  

Quote from:  Skip
Affect your boundaries, not by drawing battle lines in the sand - do it covertly by changing the game. The start point could be anything - wife going to mom, alone, to suggest a plan family event at Thanksgiving that is different that what has been done before.
What do you think?  Could your wife do this?  If not, can you think of something else you can do?
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« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2019, 06:40:30 AM »

I just want to offer my condolences on the news about your father. I don't have much advice to give except that, it's not easy but do the best you can. My father passed away after a long illness. That would be a rough situation for anyone, but as Skip says- add PD and it adds to the difficulty.

I think every family adjusts to life events according to how they adjust to things in general. With my parents, I observed that these changes escalated the BPD behaviors. It makes sense- if my BPD mother could not handle uncomfortable emotions, then having a spouse with medical needs- which would be tough in any situation- would be difficult for her to manage.

One situation that escalated things was that my mother prefers victim mode. She wants to be the center of attention as far as her feelings, her needs. My father was the rescuer, her "superman" who was there to soothe her inner turmoil and he did all he could to do that. He also basically did everything- the shopping, the errands. He was her emotional and actual caretaker. But eventually he was the one who needed the care, the empathy and he couldn't do all her did for her.

One would expect that a wife who had been cared for this way for decades would show some sympathy. That's what I expected. However, that's not how my mother perceives things. From her victim perspective, she assumed he was refusing to do them -- on purpose to hurt her. From this perspective she became furious and abusive. Without his efforts to soothe her, her BPD behaviors escalated.

I didn't understand this at the time. I had no idea about the dynamics of BPD relationships. I also had my own role in the drama- as rescuer. We talk a lot here about having been abused as kids, but seeing my mother abuse my father was a horrible thing to witness. I took her on- screamed at her. You can imagine how that turned out.

By the time my father died, both of them were angry at me. She basically disowned me. My father remained in his role as her rescuer. It's how he wanted it to be. So if I was the persecutor to her, he would stand by her.

I don't think there is a one right way to do this. For me, I think NC would have been impossible if I were to have contact with anyone in my mother's circle, and that included my father and other relatives. I didn't really understand the full dynamics until after her died. If I did, I think I would have known not to jump in as rescuer and take her on or react in an emotional way. My parent's bond was stronger than that. LC without being emotionally reactive, but with boundaries would have been the preferred choice for me. NC has it's place but I think only works when one disconnects with the pwBPD and everyone else connected to them. Otherwise, it's a 3 ring circus of triangles to deal with.

My mother doesn't like boundaries, not then and not now. She is still difficult to deal with. She's cold as ice to me,  but she wants contact with my kids. The kids are young adults now, so I don't worry about this-they have boundaries and a lot less FOG than I do with her.

My hope and prayer for you Proud Dad is that your father responds well to treatment and has many years left and that you are able to have time with him if you wish it. Keep in mind that if he's been the enabler all these years it will not change, but if he is unable to do all he has done for your mother, the dynamics between them may change. I wish you the strength to manage this to the best you can- but it's OK if it isn't always perfect. It's hard having an ill parent. I took solace in the fact that, even if my efforts to care for my family, maintain boundaries, while doing the best I knew to do at the time for my parents may not have suited them, God knows my intentions. You're a good man PD, whether or not your mother is always appreciative of that.
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« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2019, 09:48:41 AM »

Thanks everyone, sorry, I unplugged for a few days and have been meaning to follow up.

Have your kids asked to see your dad?  If not I would leave it be.  If your parents can't be respectful of you and your wife then why send your kids to spend time with them?  Would you send them to spend time with other disrespectful people who aren't family?

They haven't asked. While they get excited over the idea of my parents, they rarely ask about them. Honestly any "internal push" I have for them seeing them comes mostly from the FOG they've put out on the matter. In my and my wife's opinion, our kids' relationship with my MIL has much more substance, despite the special "Old Soul" connection my mom insists she has with our daughter. It still boggles my mind that they can be so blind to what they say and try to use obligation and guilt as means to see our kids.

I see a couple things in your reaction to block, one is they upped the ante and so did you in how you are enforcing your boundary, and the second is the whole thing is exhausting and you need a break from it all and by blocking them you are getting some peace and quiet from the constant bombardment including a text at 2:30am!

By blocking them and not engaging in the drama you have removed yourself from the drama triangle.

Self Care is your friend right now, try and take time for you, do things you enjoy or that make you feel better.  Maybe a movie with the kids (2 hours of escapism), a walk outside (exercise/sunshine), do something nice for your wife since she's not feeling well (it feels good to help someone else), eat well, take a nice bubble bath...

Thanks, I've been trying to do that. I've been doing my best to suppress the guilt of blocking them, reminding myself it's pure self preservation at this point, and reminding myself nothing good comes from anything they have to say right now. I'll be honest, it's been nice not being scared of my phone, bracing myself each time I unlock it or my heart stopping a beat every time my phone vibrates. I haven't blocked my sister yet because she hasn't crossed any lines yet (lately), so I hope she doesn't make me regret it. I don't know how long to keep it up given everything supposedly going on, but I do know the idea of unblocking them right now gives me a mild panic attack. Crazy and embarrassing that a 39 y/o man can feel that way.


Skip and Harri, thanks for the suggestion. I do like the idea of changing the game (as it is I'm trying to upend it), just have no idea what that would look like. I know it definitely will not be in the form of intervention by my wife, unless something dramatic changes. She's clear that she's had enough and wants no relationship with them anymore in any form. She's been taking subtle hints over the years (e.g., Years back, she was in a carful of ladies including my mom and sister. They were discussing another girl about my age, and my mom made the comment that she had always wished I would marry her). Anyway, this is the 3rd conflict in as many years that my parents went too far and said things that just validated my wife's fear that they don't want her in the family.

And I do know NC isn't really constructive, I just don't know what else to do for now, when their barrages of varying tactics delivering insults to my wife and FOG to me take us to the point of physical symptoms.

Thanks Notwendy, I really appreciate the kind words. Yeah I don't know where my mom is with all this, because it can go in a lot of directions. I mean, part of me is used to any physical ailments she has being used as FOG ammunition, so as horrible as it is to say I feel like if this diagnosis really is that bad, then she just got handed a great weapon, even if it's not her that's ailing. Her 2:30am text did frame my dad as "the man that's been there all my life". At the same time, we've heard so much about her problems over the years, that my wife is convinced she has Munchausen, and there is a chance for Munchausen by proxy. She literally has a sizable bag she carries around everywhere she travels, that has all her medications she's been prescribed over the years, and it appears that she takes whatever she feels like she needs at any given moment. We have no idea how much is needed, how much isn't, and what effects the various combinations are having.

I think I veered from your original point, but I guess all of it was to say that I can't begin to guess now this is going to play out. I do know my dad is seen as a big rescuer for her, as you mentioned, so that definitely may play into this. In any event, I really appreciate the encouragement.


So random update, as expected, my parents did utilize alternate routes to contact us. Last Thursday my dad called a good friend of mine to check in on us and "make sure we're alive". So that's awesome. I love how they can drive us away but then try to look like they're the concerned ones. Luckily our friend was already in the loop from our end, as it was the same friend that came to visit us.

Another side note... we've been leaning on our Sunday School class a little for support, mostly discussing it a bit during prayer requests. Not the A-Z story but they have the gist. One person in particular has gone through something similar and has been a great support. Anyway the discussion from yesterday's lesson pointed at our situation, so it came up, and I gave a brief update of what's going on. One of the members in our class said "That sounds like an Extinction Burst". It was surprising and neat to hear that kind of language pop up in real-life conversation.

Anyway, that's where we are now. I'm trying to stay focused on life while not getting sucked down into all the "What if's" or "I wish's" or "I should have's" of our situation. Not sure how long our current status quo will last, or how I'll look back on it in retrospect. But I do know I have 2 great kids who are growing up way too fast, and I'm tired of this situation robbing them of our full patience and attention. And I'm tired of feeling like I'm not allowed or don't deserve to enjoy my time with them. So I'm trying my best to stop wasting precious time.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 09:55:47 AM by ProudDad12 » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2019, 12:40:39 PM »

Good to get the update -- stay strong!

At this point, I just don't see any option except NC until your family can be open to any level of conversation about your needs.

Can't say I blame your wife for her position, eithet. I know there were times my father would have been content never to see my mother's step-mother ever again.

Your priorities -- your wife and children -- are in order.
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« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2019, 09:11:03 AM »

Good to get the update -- stay strong!

At this point, I just don't see any option except NC until your family can be open to any level of conversation about your needs.

Can't say I blame your wife for her position, eithet. I know there were times my father would have been content never to see my mother's step-mother ever again.

Your priorities -- your wife and children -- are in order.

Thanks. I'm certainly trying to focus on what's important, or at least prioritize. While I don't want to come across as constantly seeking validation, it really helps hearing these things come from someone else.

So it's been nice having the breather in the form of blocking on my phone. My wife pointed out it may be one of the first selfish things I've ever done (in a good way). But I guess my bubble got burst a bit in counseling yesterday. He was completely sympathetic, and pointed out (after first trying to get me to notice) that the bulk of my mom's last text was about them and their feelings in the context of our conflict, not about my dad's condition. As opposed to simply giving me the facts. He also caught on to the fact that we really don't know my dad's diagnosis, prognosis, or treatment plan, given it was summed up with two words inside of a long rambling 2:30am text that smelled of poor mental state. So he was suggesting options for finding out the truth. And while he was right that as their son and a well meaning person I want to know the truth of my dad's health, the idea of unblocking and giving an opening, much less engaging, was unsettling me pretty bad. Fortunately he did see a "breakthrough" of sorts in that he said it's clear I'm establishing that want off the triangle, and is trying to help me in that regard while navigating this other.

We finally settled on the idea of sending a letter to my parents, and to my siblings. Brief, clearly stating I don't want to discuss our conflict but that my dad's health is important to me, and asking to know the facts. On one hand, the idea of asking this question in the form of a letter almost feels cowardly or childish. On the other hand, the idea of even opening up that lane of communication fills me with dread.

Not to mention when he had me re-read my mom's text to get my thoughts, I saw the part where she told me how much they have been hurting [because of our actions]. Really? THEY are hurting? I mean yeah I'm sure they are, but it's not like we aren't. I've never hurt this bad and for so long in my whole life, and I'm sure my wife would say the same. Heck, as a Southern boy I have my share of firearms for my hobby of target shooting, and I've proactively locked them all away in a single safe and gave my wife the keys. As much as I want this pain to stop, I feel too much love and responsibility to my wife and kids to even consider harming myself, but I don't want the easy temptation to be present during any potential moments of weakness. Handing her the keys was one of the more embarrassing and humbling things I've done. All that to say yeah, MY PARENTS are the ones who are hurting. Ever since reading her words again, I've been having an inner fantasy dialogue of lashing out at my mom all the things I want to say to her. Things I long to say to her but now is not the time. I am so angry. I pray I never become that selfish to my own children. No matter how badly I hurt I pray I always put my wife and children first. But yeah, my parents are the ones who are hurting. We're fine over here like the selfish good little devilish persecutors we are.

So I'm been a bit bummed. I've really appreciated the break I've had by burying my head in the sand. But now I guess I have to think about the if's/when's/how's of finding out my dad's condition, all the while putting aside my sizable hurt and anger, all while trying to open the door only enough to allow facts through. I don't know if I'm even ready for that, and that sounds horrible to say.

I promise this was intended to be a brief update after our counseling... I guess a lot got kicked up.
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Panda39
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« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2019, 07:54:34 AM »

So it's been nice having the breather in the form of blocking on my phone. My wife pointed out it may be one of the first selfish things I've ever done (in a good way).
  Yes, self care is a good thing!  I'm glad to hear you are gettting a bit of rest away from the drama.

We finally settled on the idea of sending a letter to my parents, and to my siblings. Brief, clearly stating I don't want to discuss our conflict but that my dad's health is important to me, and asking to know the facts. On one hand, the idea of asking this question in the form of a letter almost feels cowardly or childish. On the other hand, the idea of even opening up that lane of communication fills me with dread.

I like the idea of a letter/or perhaps email as the method of communication.  This type of communication is often suggested on the co-parenting board for documentation for divorce, but also to help de-escalate conflict.  Email slows everything down which is really helpful in terms of allowing us to think about what we say and how we respond.  It also allows us to decide when we read and communicate back...pick a time that is good for us...when we are well rested...focused etc. or if we respond at all.

I like your plan to focus on your dad's health only, don't be surprised if their response is to bring up other things.  Your job is to not respond to those things.  On the co-parenting board we learn to just focus on things related to the kids and ignore all the other stuff.  In other words don't pick up the drama bait. Just focus on your dad's health issues.

Heck, as a Southern boy I have my share of firearms for my hobby of target shooting, and I've proactively locked them all away in a single safe and gave my wife the keys. As much as I want this pain to stop, I feel too much love and responsibility to my wife and kids to even consider harming myself, but I don't want the easy temptation to be present during any potential moments of weakness. Handing her the keys was one of the more embarrassing and humbling things I've done.

It might have felt embarrassing/humbling but it is also wise and brave.  Have you discussed these feelings with your Therapist?

So I'm been a bit bummed. I've really appreciated the break I've had by burying my head in the sand. But now I guess I have to think about the if's/when's/how's of finding out my dad's condition, all the while putting aside my sizable hurt and anger, all while trying to open the door only enough to allow facts through. I don't know if I'm even ready for that, and that sounds horrible to say.

This is about boundaries, yes it can be hard but remember it is a tool to protect you. 

If you need help with your letter this is a great place to get support, with that.  If you want to share your ideas or a draft the "hive mind" here can really help come up with some good stuff.  I once shared a letter I was writing to my Partner's daughter and it went from a big long letter that was more about me down to 3 sentences in a card that were about her.  I was prevented from putting my foot in it several times and drilled down to what I really wanted to say. 

I'm glad you shared your therapy session and the thoughts that it generated. That's what we are here for...a sounding board  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)  I think taking a break from communicating with your parents is giving you the breather you need.  Yes, you need to put a toe in and reach out about your dad's health, but you don't have to jump in the deep end, just use/enforce your boundaries.

Hang in there,
Panda39


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« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2019, 09:17:39 AM »

I like your plan to focus on your dad's health only, don't be surprised if their response is to bring up other things.  Your job is to not respond to those things.  On the co-parenting board we learn to just focus on things related to the kids and ignore all the other stuff.  In other words don't pick up the drama bait. Just focus on your dad's health issues.

Thanks. I'm expecting them to jump at the opening, and as it is my own temptation to speak my mind has to be suppressed as well. I'm going to have to work hard to separate emotion.

It might have felt embarrassing/humbling but it is also wise and brave.  Have you discussed these feelings with your Therapist?

I did, with a bit of difficulty. It's not something that's easy for me to talk about.
I didn't want to talk to my therapist about it due to the stigma of such thoughts and the fear of it somehow having ramifications in my professional life. I didn't want to talk to my wife about it because (while my mom will deny it till her last breath) my mom has used the idea of suicide and a supposed attempt as a way to manipulate me. Like when we lived 7 hours away, she talked about how she had been thinking about doing it, in the same conversation of talking about how hard it was for them that we lived so far away. So I know what it feels like to have suicidal thoughts used as a tool for manipulation, and so I'm afraid if I talk to my wife about it, it will come across the same. However, with our circumstances continually escalating and my psyche being pushed to new limits, I've been more willing to open up about it. Fortunately, while our therapist agreed that removing easy access is a good idea, he said he's not perceiving me as suicidal, and made sure I know I can contact him on his personal cell anytime. My wife also deals with these things in her line of work, and has made it clear she will not hesitate to make the necessary calls if it comes to it.

I feel like I'm overcompensating here (since it's an admittedly hard topic for me), but it's all to say that between my commitment to my nuclear family, and me seemingly being in good hands, I don't think the voice offering an easy/selfish way out is going to get traction.

If you need help with your letter this is a great place to get support, with that.  If you want to share your ideas or a draft the "hive mind" here can really help come up with some good stuff.  I once shared a letter I was writing to my Partner's daughter and it went from a big long letter that was more about me down to 3 sentences in a card that were about her.  I was prevented from putting my foot in it several times and drilled down to what I really wanted to say.  

I may do that! Our therapist also recommended to keep it as short and concise as possible. Given the reservoir of things I'm holding back from saying/yelling to them, it might take some work!

I'm glad you shared your therapy session and the thoughts that it generated. That's what we are here for...a sounding board  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)  I think taking a break from communicating with your parents is giving you the breather you need.  Yes, you need to put a toe in and reach out about your dad's health, but you don't have to jump in the deep end, just use/enforce your boundaries.

I appreciate it. Holding these boundaries is hard enough as it is, without the added complications of my dad's health. I need all the help I can get!
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« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2019, 01:51:46 PM »

Hi.   Welcome new member (click to insert in post)

Quote from:  Panda39
In other words don't pick up the drama bait. Just focus on your dad's health issues.
Good advice here from Panda. 

Quote from:  ProudDad
Thanks. I'm expecting them to jump at the opening, and as it is my own temptation to speak my mind has to be suppressed as well. I'm going to have to work hard to separate emotion.
Think back to what we said about you changing the rules of the interactions with your parents.  They are playing the same game and using the same methods they always have, because they have worked in the past.  You have been changing things and that upsets the whole family system right?  Change is happening on *your* end and that is all you can control right?  So keep with that mind set.  You sending a letter asking about your dads health might be an opening in their eyes, but you do not need to play it that way.  Change it up ProudDad.  Change the rules, change the game and change your position.  Yes, I know you know this.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

How can you respond differently while keeping this in mind? 

Excerpt
I feel like I'm overcompensating here (since it's an admittedly hard topic for me), but it's all to say that between my commitment to my nuclear family, and me seemingly being in good hands, I don't think the voice offering an easy/selfish way out is going to get traction.
Good.  I am glad you talked about this here.  This is a safe place to do so.  No one needs to deal with those feelings alone. 

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« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2019, 06:46:17 PM »

What kind of response do you think you might get?

 "Blah, blah, blah...your father's condition is Stage 2 and  requires chemotherapy, which starts (date)...blah, blah, poor us, we've tried so hard, blah, blah"

You in turn reply, "Thank you for updating me on Dad's condition."

 Period. Then radio silence again.
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« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2019, 09:45:21 AM »

Sorry, we went out of town his weekend and I didn't have my laptop!

Hi.   Welcome new member (click to insert in post)
 Good advice here from Panda.  
Think back to what we said about you changing the rules of the interactions with your parents.  They are playing the same game and using the same methods they always have, because they have worked in the past.  You have been changing things and that upsets the whole family system right?  Change is happening on *your* end and that is all you can control right?  So keep with that mind set.  You sending a letter asking about your dads health might be an opening in their eyes, but you do not need to play it that way.  Change it up ProudDad.  Change the rules, change the game and change your position.  Yes, I know you know this.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

How can you respond differently while keeping this in mind?  

I think the best way I know to answer that is I try to step back and look at big picture, and recognize the well known and documented patterns/traits associated with these dynamics. Then respond under that context, trying to not give weight to my old habits of pleasing them and playing their game. That alone is a huge game changer for them (though they would call it something closer to abandonment!)

Good.  I am glad you talked about this here.  This is a safe place to do so.  No one needs to deal with those feelings alone.  

Thanks. Yeah I'm trying to be more honest/open about it when necessary/appropriate.

What kind of response do you think you might get?

 "Blah, blah, blah...your father's condition is Stage 2 and  requires chemotherapy, which starts (date)...blah, blah, poor us, we've tried so hard, blah, blah"

You in turn reply, "Thank you for updating me on Dad's condition."

 Period. Then radio silence again.

I laughed out loud at this, but yeah you hit the nail on the head on how it would look!


In any event, I ended up finding out my dad's diagnosis, prognosis, and treatment. The biopsy was for prostate cancer (that much I knew because they've been dragging their feet on elevated PSA numbers for a couple years now and later by insisting on getting a "special" biopsy that insurance won't cover and requires flying across the country (they finally gave up on that idea and got the one everyone else gets). Anyway, most of the biopsies came back positive so they plan to remove it surgically. The impression I'm getting is they are more worried about side effects from surgery than from prognosis beyond the surgery.

So the way I found that out was from my sister... Despite her closeness/dependence on my mom, she has surprisingly stayed out of this whole mess. So she was the only one I didn't block. Anyway, she asked if I could call her, not to talk about anything serious. The gist of the call was to update me on things they had going on, and to ask about if they could come see the kids at some point. I used the time to ask about my dad. Apparently he doesn't want me to know, be it out of anger/estrangement, or if he doesn't want to use it as leverage in our conflict (completely contrasting to my mom's MO), or if he doesn't want to bear the idea of me maintaining NC while knowing what he has going on. My sister truly didn't know which.

Despite both of us agreeing not to, we dipped our toes into the conflict a bit, at a neutral level. I got to get a couple things off my chest (i.e., That this is not about the anniversary thing. Reinforcing my solid boundary that my wife cannot be treated/characterized this way). She got in the "message" that my parents love both of us and don't mean the bad things they say. I just reminded her that that was not for me and her to work out. Not to mention I could hear my wife's resounding "BS!" to the "loving both of us" part before I even told her.

Anyway the call ended on good terms, albeit us both being aware nothing was solved in regards to my parents and brother. Unfortunately it was a double edged sword, because she does want to see our kids, and hasn't done anything herself (recently) to lose that ability. But my wife is still in the mindset of not wanting to see any of them (understandably so), and I don't think she's at a point where she can separate my sister from the rest of my FOO. So it's one more thing I get to try to navigate now, and one more stressor I have to suppress randomly during the day when it pops up.

Side note, we visited friends this weekend for a kids birthday party, and another friend of mine was there, who've I've known since college. Probably the smartest person I know, to the point were he views everything more from a position of practicalty than emotion. Anyway, we updated him on our stuff (hadn't told him yet because he's recently gone through more personal tragedy than most can imagine), and he reminded me that he's been warning me about my mom for many years now, and tends to avoid her when possible despite her offers to have him over for dinner and other niceties. I don't remember his warnings, but I found it interesting.

Anyway I've rambled enough, just wanted to update everyone since the letter thing looks to be moot now.
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« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2019, 02:57:17 PM »

Hey everyone, it's been a couple weeks since I've updated my situation so I thought I would check in.

I still have my parents and brother blocked on my phone. I'm struggling with that a little bit, but every time I consider unblocking them I panic a little. I don't feel ready to give up this peace/freedom I've never felt before. Not sure how far to take that though... But that also means things have been quiet on my end.

A bit of good news... I reconnected with my aunt (dad's sister). Without getting into the long story, my FOO has been on shaky ground with them for almost 10 years now, under circumstances my parents blame-but-don't-blame on my wife (quick version: She befriended my aunt and family because they were the first ones to actually make my wife feel welcome in the family; that lead to her getting caught in the crossfire of long standing ill feelings between my aunt's family and my parents).

Anyway, I've been wanting to reach out to my aunt for a while, but was afraid my mom would see it as a betrayal. I've wanted to reach out even more during recent events, but I didn't know where my aunt stood on things or what my mom may have said to her, since they're at a place of "being cordial". Well she asked me about Thanksgiving this year, so I had to give her a call and fill her in (since I won't be there if my parents are). The resounding takeaway was she understood completely and validated everything we've been struggling with. We've been talking ever since. The observation from my aunt and her family are almost literal echos of things me, my wife, my counselor, etc. have been saying. This is huge for me, because my aunt has known my parents longer than me, and her version of the story doesn't come from me or my wife, it comes from her own observations that predate my birth. The kicker is apparently my dad's other siblings see it too. So not only have I gotten to reduce the gaslighting effects a little, I feel like I've regained some family.

For the record, she was also very clear that my wife had nothing to do with the conflict between my aunt and parents. That was nice to hear.

What's sad is it was obvious how timid my aunt and I were on approaching this subject with each other at first. We were each afraid of the ramifications of saying something to the other. It appears we've both had a lot of smoke blown in our directions over the years by my mom. I told my wife that talking to my aunt was like a breath of fresh air. We talked about things that had happened, were said, etc. and it felt like an adult conversation, without reality distortion, emotional immaturity, etc. One more big piece was that my mom more than once has suggested that my deceased grandfather (dad's dad) would be ashamed of my actions. That has always stuck and hurt, because he was a man respected immensely by many, and one of the closest things I've had to a role model. I got around to mentioning that to my aunt and she got furious to see him be used that way, and was clear to me that I'm doing the right thing and that my grandfather would see it that way too. And that he'd be rolling over at my parent's behavior. I hope me saying that doesn't come off wrong, but it meant a lot to me to hear that, because my mom using his name/legacy against me has hurt for a long time and done an effective job making me question myself.

Now all that said, I'm still mentally/emotionally struggling in the context of my sister. I never got back to her about seeing our kids. My wife isn't ready to see anyone from my FOO, including her. While my sister has mostly stayed out of this current mess, she's still my mom's mini-me and has done plenty to irk us in the past. So I'm at a standstill as to what to do. My counselor suggested maybe I meet her and BIL in a neutral spot with just me and the kids, but I just don't know... that just seems off.  And if I'm being honest, I'm not anxious to see her either, but at the same time I feel like I'm punishing her if I don't, despite her "good behavior" thus far this time. She tried calling me again today, I had an embarrassing moment of panic when I saw her name. I didn't answer and she didn't leave a message. So that's been on my mind ever since. And quite frankly I don't know what to say to her. But I know I can't put her off forever.

Anyway, that's where I'm at today.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 03:03:27 PM by ProudDad12 » Logged
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