My dad has terminal cancer, but my mom has made it all about her

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hello all.

TLDR: (too long, didn't read version)
My family and I are really struggling with my mom, who is the primary caregiver for my dad. We should all be focused on supporting and caring for my dad, but my mom is doing everything in her power to divert all attention to her. I also am concerned whether my mom is cut out of taking care of my dad in the long haul. How do we diffuse her attention seeking with her extreme emotions? How do we make sure my dad is taken care of? She is upsetting him every day. She has been diagnosed with depression in the past, but I'm seeing lots of signs that point to BPD.

Long Version:
My 78 year old dad was diagnosed with glioblastoma, a terminal brain cancer, in mid-June of this year. Prior to that, he was extremely healthy. If you'd met him prior to this, you'd think he was in his late 60s. He'd never even been to the hospital in his life! So this has been a very scary experience for him, to not feel like himself and to feel weak and sick.

He underwent a craniotomy to have one tumor removed and has one remaining tumor that is inoperable. So far he has been responding very well to the standard of care which is radiation and chemo, although it has had impacts on his mobility and energy levels. He sleeps a lot during the day and has trouble getting up and down out of chairs, but is still staying active and walking a couple miles each day.

All in all, we have a lot to be grateful for and he is responding well to treatment so far. The typical prognosis for this cancer is about 12 months, but I feel confident my dad will have more time with us than that based on how well he's been doing for his age. I want my mom and dad to be making the most of this time together, going on some trips maybe and making memories. But sadly, that's not the case.

My mom is hysterically crying on the daily, lamenting that after my dad is gone that no one will care about her. She makes bitter comments that we're only coming home to visit him and not her. This is of course upsetting my dad, he keeps asking why she's so sad. I really think she's getting in the way of his healing process. My mom has told me that she feels "emotionally dead" and has repeatedly blocked friends and family from visiting my dad by not responding to texts or calls. She says her life is over. Mind you, my mom is only 68 with no chronic health problems. If my dad passes in the next 1-2 years, she easily has 10-20 years ahead of her! What a cruel thing to say when my father is the one who's dying.

The fact of the matter is, my dad is doing pretty well right now all things considered! He doesn't require any specialty care. As a family we've done so many things to try to make her life easier, like coming home for a few days so she can have some time off. My brother tracks all my dad's medications and keeps them in an easy to use list format for her.  If she's THIS intense now, what's going to happen when my dad is actually dying? What happens when he needs help showering, going to the bathroom? I don't think she's going to be able to handle this.

My mom is so bitter about her lot in life, which is crazy to me. From an outsider perspective, she had "the dream", successful children, a nice house, a great career and a loving husband. She can't see the positive, and has convinced herself that we are a horrible family and that we don't love her. She lies regularly, saying that no one calls or texts her or invites her to things, which is simply not true! Nothing we can do is ever enough. I can't stand the thought of being around my mom right now, but in order to see my dad I have to.

My mom is sucking up all of our family's energy when all attention should be focused on my dad. Is there anything we can do to help this situation? I just hate that she's upsetting my dad every day, and spending her days crying when they should be making happy memories. She's starting with a new female therapist this week, after she was dissatisfied with her past psychologist. She said he didn't take her seriously because he was male. I'm skeptical of how things will go with this therapist, she always finds some reason to not engage in self care or reach out to others.

Looking forward to hearing from others who've been in this situation. We feel like we're going crazy.

[aproprose]

Hello all.

TLDR: (too long, didn't read version)
My family and I are really struggling with my mom, who is the primary caregiver for my dad. We should all be focused on supporting and caring for my dad, but my mom is doing everything in her power to divert all attention to her. I also am concerned whether my mom is cut out of taking care of my dad in the long haul. How do we diffuse her attention seeking with her extreme emotions? How do we make sure my dad is taken care of? She is upsetting him every day. She has been diagnosed with depression in the past, but I'm seeing lots of signs that point to BPD.

Long Version:
My 78 year old dad was diagnosed with glioblastoma, a terminal brain cancer, in mid-June of this year. Prior to that, he was extremely healthy. If you'd met him prior to this, you'd think he was in his late 60s. He'd never even been to the hospital in his life! So this has been a very scary experience for him, to not feel like himself and to feel weak and sick.

He underwent a craniotomy to have one tumor removed and has one remaining tumor that is inoperable. So far he has been responding very well to the standard of care which is radiation and chemo, although it has had impacts on his mobility and energy levels. He sleeps a lot during the day and has trouble getting up and down out of chairs, but is still staying active and walking a couple miles each day.

All in all, we have a lot to be grateful for and he is responding well to treatment so far. The typical prognosis for this cancer is about 12 months, but I feel confident my dad will have more time with us than that based on how well he's been doing for his age. I want my mom and dad to be making the most of this time together, going on some trips maybe and making memories. But sadly, that's not the case.

My mom is hysterically crying on the daily, lamenting that after my dad is gone that no one will care about her. She makes bitter comments that we're only coming home to visit him and not her. This is of course upsetting my dad, he keeps asking why she's so sad. I really think she's getting in the way of his healing process. My mom has told me that she feels "emotionally dead" and has repeatedly blocked friends and family from visiting my dad by not responding to texts or calls. She says her life is over. Mind you, my mom is only 68 with no chronic health problems. If my dad passes in the next 1-2 years, she easily has 10-20 years ahead of her! What a cruel thing to say when my father is the one who's dying.

The fact of the matter is, my dad is doing pretty well right now all things considered! He doesn't require any specialty care. As a family we've done so many things to try to make her life easier, like coming home for a few days so she can have some time off. My brother tracks all my dad's medications and keeps them in an easy to use list format for her.  If she's THIS intense now, what's going to happen when my dad is actually dying? What happens when he needs help showering, going to the bathroom? I don't think she's going to be able to handle this.

My mom is so bitter about her lot in life, which is crazy to me. From an outsider perspective, she had "the dream", successful children, a nice house, a great career and a loving husband. She can't see the positive, and has convinced herself that we are a horrible family and that we don't love her. She lies regularly, saying that no one calls or texts her or invites her to things, which is simply not true! Nothing we can do is ever enough. I can't stand the thought of being around my mom right now, but in order to see my dad I have to.

My mom is sucking up all of our family's energy when all attention should be focused on my dad. Is there anything we can do to help this situation? I just hate that she's upsetting my dad every day, and spending her days crying when they should be making happy memories. She's starting with a new female therapist this week, after she was dissatisfied with her past psychologist. She said he didn't take her seriously because he was male. I'm skeptical of how things will go with this therapist, she always finds some reason to not engage in self care or reach out to others.

Looking forward to hearing from others who've been in this situation. We feel like we're going crazy.

[Harri]

Hi and welcome.

I am so sorry to hear about your fathers condition.  How are you managing with it, apart from your mom I mean?

I am glad you reached out.  We have a few members dealing with or who have dealt with parents who are elderly and ill with BPD in the mix so you are not alone.   We understand the complexity of dealing with a parent with BPD and can hopefully support you.

Reading your post I can understand how upsetting and even frustrating your moms behavior is.  pwBPD (people with BPD) tend not to handle stress and grief well and a lot of their behaviors are driven by fear of abandonment in addition to having poor executive function.  Given that, it is not surprising to me that your mom is making this all about her.  When pwBPD get upset, their feelings equal facts for them so if, for example, they feel abandoned then you have, in their mind, abandoned them. 

I mention all that as a lot of times understanding where the behavior is coming from can reduce some of the emotions we have about it.  I don't mean we won't get upset, just not as upset so we can focus betting on managing our own stuff and helping your dad and even your mom.

How do we diffuse her attention seeking with her extreme emotions?

What have you tried so far? 

How do we make sure my dad is taken care of?

Same way you are doing now.  Stay in contact, watch, listen and help where you can and when it gets too hard or he can't help himself, you can hire care givers to come in the home.  Sometimes that is covered by healthcare.

She is upsetting him every day. She has been diagnosed with depression in the past, but I'm seeing lots of signs that point to BPD.

How were they together before your dad got sick?  Was he what was keeping the relationship steady?   How was she when you were younger?

I hope you share more so we can support you better.   

Again,

[aproprose]

Thank you for the thoughtful and prompt reply!

How are you managing with it, apart from your mom I mean?

I feel like so much of my energy is tied up in my mom, I'm not able to even really process what's going on with my dad. He's been really tired and more frail lately so that's been really hard to see. I don't get space to process my emotions though because my mom will just say how HORRIBLE it is for HER to deal with everyday, and I get to "just go back to my life." Um, my dad is still dying of cancer here? That doesn't just go away.

What have you tried so far?

When she says extremely negative statements such as "No one cares about me, they only care about dad." I respond with empathy such as "I'm sorry you feel that way" but then follow it with a statement such as "I don't think that true because xxx". I don't want to indulge her negative thinking. I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall sometimes trying to convince her that her feelings are not reality.
I also try proposing solutions. If she says she's feeling the worst she's felt in 20 years, I suggest that this is one of the things she should try talking with her therapist about so they can work through it. My options are limited in positive behaviors however, she doesn't have any close friends ("I can't trust anyone because of my horrible childhood!") and she also doesn't have any hobbies.

How were they together before your dad got sick?  Was he what was keeping the relationship steady?   How was she when you were younger?

My dad thinks the world of my mom, and has always taken care of her and provided anything she's ever wanted. He's been the steadying force in the relationship. She is and always has been bitter however about his "lack of emotions". My mom laments that my dad "doesn't talk to her." But he does! He's just a quiet guy in general, but so incredibly loving and known and loved in my community for being such a kind man. My mom resents that! "Everyone thinks he's so great." It's truly because he is.
My mom has no friends or close family members. She puts all of her expectations for fulfillment in life on us, and what we do is never enough. This led to her running away for a brief time when I was 14 (I am now 31). She told me she was going to visit a friend for a few days, turns out she was leaving my dad for her high school boyfriend who she'd reconnected with online. This relationship dissolved when I refused to relocate to be live with her and her new boyfriend. She then came back to my dad. They went to some really shoddy couples therapy, where she dominated the session and painted my dad to be the bad guy. Despite that, he took steps to be more emotionally present and engaged for her.
I wonder if she should've ever come back to my dad, my dad deserves so much better. He's done so much for her, I wish she could reciprocate in his time of need.

[zachira]

It hurts my heart to hear that your mom is making your dad's terminal cancer all about her. Unfortunately these types of hurtful exasperating behaviors are not uncommon in some families. You can choose to be there for your dad and let him know you care. It may be helpful to spend time with you and your dad together without your mom. I am not really sure you can do much about your mom's behaviors except trying to not to be taken in by her behaviors, and encourage likewise with others who are able to do so. My brother was terminally ill with cancer and my mother made it all about her to the extent that the social services had to get involved because how mom was abusing him. My brother was groomed to be her caretaker by mom from an early age and she was angry at him for dying, shirking his supposed responsibility to be her doormat. Take care and keep us posted. We are here to support you so let us know how we can be the most helpful.

[Harri]

Hi again.  

What sort of support do you have for you, other than us here that is?  Are you and your siblings able to talk for example?

my mom will just say how HORRIBLE it is for HER to deal with everyday, and I get to "just go back to my life." Um, my dad is still dying of cancer here? That doesn't just go away.

No, it doesn't just go away and I am so sorry this is happening.  

When she says extremely negative statements such as "No one cares about me, they only care about dad." I respond with empathy such as "I'm sorry you feel that way" but then follow it with a statement such as "I don't think that true because xxx". I don't want to indulge her negative thinking. I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall sometimes trying to convince her that her feelings are not reality.

Validation of her emotions is good and validation can be tricky.  It is true we do not want to validate the invalid (that her feelings are reality), however her feelings are in fact reality for her.  We talk about validation differently here as it is hard to can the hang of it.  We talk about not invalidating a person.  None of this is intuitive.  Remember, people with emotional/mental disorders, including BPD and depression, process things differently and we need to keep that in mind because when we offer as validation can in fact be invalidating.  
I am going to link you to an article that discuses Don't be Invalidating much better than I can here.  See what you think and see if you think changing what you say may help.  And by help I mean more for you.  It feels really good when we stop beating our head against a brick wall especially with people who are not able to hear and process what we are saying the way we are saying it.    Lots of our members have found that learning to validate in more effective ways can have a big impact on their relationships.  It is not a cure all though.  It is simply one tool in the box.

I also try proposing solutions. If she says she's feeling the worst she's felt in 20 years, I suggest that this is one of the things she should try talking with her therapist about so they can work through it.

I understand the urge to problem solve especially when solution are *right there*.  I also know that problem solving, even when offered in a caring and supportive way, can come off as invalidating.

Your dad sounds wonderful!  I am glad you had him to lean on and support you when you were younger and I can see why you would want this time for him to be peaceful and as joyous as possible.  Do you get to spend time alone with him when you visit?  Can you take him out for a ride or to the park or fishing or golfing (have no idea what he likes to do) or to visit his friends?  

[aproprose]

Hi all,

Love the suggestions of spending more time alone with my dad. I think that's the key to overcoming some of my guilt and frustration with my mom, not allowing her to get in the way of he and I spending time together. I'm going to plan something with him

Regarding my support system, I am lucky to be well-covered in that area. My siblings and I all talk, I also have a fabulous therapist as well as a supportive husband, friends and a church community. I feel very blessed in that regard and that has made this horrible situation much easier.

@Harri, I took a look at the Validation article you shared. It makes sense at first, but I struggle with the idea that I am always supposed to confirm my mom's feelings. She is in a constant state of despair right now and I'm afraid she's going to have a mental break if this continues. We're not even to the bad part of my dad's disease, what's going to happen when he truly declines? I know problem solving can come across as invalidation but I see no alternative given the long road ahead. My fear legitimately is that if she doesn't become more resilient she's going to snap.

Are there examples of wording you'd use for some of her statements that would be validating without just letting her roll over me? Such as if she says "My life is over." or "No one cares about me."

[Harri]

Oh good, I am glad you have a strong support system especially during this time.  

I took a look at the Validation article you shared. It makes sense at first, but I struggle with the idea that I am always supposed to confirm my mom's feelings.

That's okay.    Validation is not easy especially for us with parents with BPD.  We do have examples here.  See if that helps.  It is okay to excuse yourself from a conversation as well, especially if you are just not feeling up t dealing with your mom.  Honor your feelings as well while trying not to make things worse.  

I know problem solving can come across as invalidation but I see no alternative given the long road ahead. My fear legitimately is that if she doesn't become more resilient she's going to snap.

I hear you and yes, that is a reality based concern/fear.  How would you feel about saying "Mom, you have a lot of really complex feelings and concerns.  I don't know how to help you with them and I think it would be best for you to talk with your therapist about them."  And then repeat as necessary.

Thoughts?

One comment that I do want to make as another 'adult child of' a very difficult mentally ill person is that it is hard and very trying to be responsible for helping the parent who hurt or abused us.  I chose not to help except where necessary but I also did not have a father who was ill.  My mother had been for a few years with cancer and then she was tumor free for a while and then it came back so I do get some of the emotions you are dealing with here.  For me, using the tools like boundaries and communicating differently (I did not know about validation when my parents were alive) were about helping me and making things easier for me to cope with while maintaining some degree of contact with them.  I am not sure if that sort of mind shift is necessary for you or even if it applies, but I wanted to share it.  I resented the thought of 'helping my mom' after all she did and all the trouble she still caused even after I got away from my family.
Let's talk some more about this.  Validation may not work for you.  As one of the other Admins says here:  validation in not a panacea.  It can help though... even if only sometimes.  We have other tools as well.

[aproprose]

Yes, I feel like the below phrase is something I can definitely use. Unfortunately I foresee saying it a LOT.
"Mom, you have a lot of really complex feelings and concerns.  I don't know how to help you with them and I think it would be best for you to talk with your therapist about them."

What happens when I excuse myself from a conversation and that just sends her down a spiral of "No one cares about me, no one wants to talk to me." I'm only just now realizing that my entire childhood, I was made to feel responsible for her emotions.

As far as "opting out" of validation entirely, I don't think this is something I can do with my dad still in the mix. If I want to have a relationship with my dad AND ensure he gets the care he needs I need to maintain relations with my mother for now.

What are some of the different communication techniques you mention? As far as boundaries, I've set my mom up as mute on the phone so she can't bombard me with 24/7 guilt trip text messages. That's her preferred communication method, she loves to passive aggressive text me.

[Harri]

 

You could add "let's call your therapist and leave a message for her or email her so she knows when you go for your next session."

If your mom says no, well, yes, you can rinse and repeat, paraphrase.  I might even say something like "Mom, you know there is help available, please call your T" just for some variety and sanity. 

Being supportive does not have to mean being a doormat either, so yes, boundaries like you have with your phone is good.  It is something you implement and control.   

If I want to have a relationship with my dad AND ensure he gets the care he needs I need to maintain relations with my mother for now.

I agree.  It is a balancing act for sure. 

What are some of the different communication techniques you mention?

Check out the Library section here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=36.0 for communication tools.  The tools are affective, but not 100%,  and they take practice.  There is some trial and error involved and there is definitely a learning curve.  We talk about them some on this board but the place they are most used is over on the "Bettering a Relationship Board".  I am not saying to post there, though you could if you wanted.  If you want to see the tools in action, that is the best place to read IMO.   We can talk about them here too.

See what you think. 

[Methuen]

Hello Apropose!

I went through this with my dad 13-14 years ago!  As I was reading your story, I could so relate, because it felt uncannily similar to that chapter of my story.  I can share my story of how things evolved, and maybe there will be some pieces that could be supportive or helpful for you.  My dad was diagnosed with dementia and parkinson's.  I am an only child (also with a supportive husband, and two young kids at the time) and we lived in the same town as my parents; there was no other "family" support for us.  My mom is uBPD, although we didn't know that then.  As my dad deteriorated, the stress graph curved upward exponentially for my mom.  H and I were running ragged as both H and I had jobs, two little kids, our own home to manage, my dad (whom I've always characterized as a "saint" and who always stood by my mom), and yes my mom, who with the stress of my dad's illness, was managing to take all the attention away from him by being negative, frustrated, angry, sometimes delusional, and hitting hard at anyone in sight with her verbal abuse.  Her favorite thing to say was to call my dad a "retard" as his dementia developed.  She verbally abused him terribly.  The cruelty was unthinkable.  She said this (and plenty else) when she was alone with him, but not when others were around.  She didn't hear me come into the house one time, and that was the first time I heard her raging at him and calling him this name.  One day my dad asked me to take him to the Dr.; dad told his story (he asked me to go into the Dr consulting room with him), and that was when Dr suggested my mom had uBPD.  Later, I also went to Dr alone, and gave more background information.  We (Dr and I) discussed what kind of home support would be available for dad down the road, and he gave other suggestions in the meantime.  Dr requested an "evaluation" of my dad's medical condition, which was required before any kind of home care could get involved.  While it doesn't sound like your dad is in need of home care at this time, it is worth while to have conversations early (especially with his Dr).  I just made an appointment with my dad's Dr (I explained I was his daughter and I wanted to discuss my dad's situation, and that's how I got an appointment).  Anyways,  once my dad had his evaluation, and home care got involved, I arranged to be there for some of the visits to meet the case worker/nurse.  The next step: I arranged to have a private conversation with the case worker (I had numerous conversations both in person and at home) to enlighten them about my dad's situation because mom was perfectly behaved when anyone else was around.  Mom could be so abusive, and dad wasn't in a position to advocate for himself, so I became his advocate by sharing the problem with his Dr and home care case worker.  It was so distressing for me at the time; I think that may have been the most stressful time of my life.  H and I also suggested solutions like a house cleaner, a paid companion (who could stay with dad so mom could go out to appointments, see friends, etc), but she got angry with the suggestions, and refused to accept any help!  She wanted to appear as the fantasy loving wife who took care of her sick husband, except she abused him.  Her refusal to accept help was impossible for us to understand.  Because I didn't know anything about BPD,  I kept treating her like a rational person who should come to her senses.   BP's are not going to come to any senses, but I didn't finally accept that until this summer, 14 years later!  I was in denial, and never changed how I interacted with my mom until this summer when I discovered this board and finally started learning about BPD.  At any rate, here are a couple ideas of how we supported my dad.  Maybe you are already doing them:
1) shared his circumstances and situation (re: my mom) with his doctor and the home care case worker.  They are professionals, and used the information appropriately, without breaking any confidentiality.  Mom never found out what H and I shared.
2) Made time for dad alone.  One way we did this, was to volunteer to be with dad when mom went to appointments or grocery shopping.  What I'm really saying here, is we made it about HER.  We would stay with dad so SHE could have some time away, and so SHE could go get her hair cut or whatever SHE needed to do.  But really, it was our way of getting time alone with dad.  We were careful how we worded it.
3) We encouraged dad to communicate or share his concerns or problems with us when we were alone.  He didn't want to burden us, but he new we understood what was happening, and he felt our support.  He knew he wasn't alone.
4) We would bring meals over to the house, do jobs outside in the yard that dad couldn't do anymore, because, well, they needed to be done, and ANYTHING mom saw that wasn't perfect could trigger another rage, which dad was likely to pay the price for.
   My mom needed to get mental help for herself, but she didn't.  If your mom is more willing, medication (anti-depressant, or anti-anxiety) could be helpful.  
   Had I known then, what I know now about BP, a counsellor or T would have been a big support for us, because they have ideas about how to support, and know how the medical system works.  Back then, I still thought my mom was "normal".

Mom refused to get help for herself.  She was self-destructing.  It was horrible.  It didn't start to get better, until dad's disease had progessed to the point that he went into long term care.  That didn't happen until he began hallucinating one day, mom called me, and I took him to hospital emergency (she didn't even come along).  My experience, and the experience of others in my geographical region, was that help is limited until they are admitted into the medical system (my dad had a case of diverticulosis which tipped his demetia over the edge).  Once the hospital observed him, home care, and eventually long term care became available.  Moral of the story for me: avoid delay's of any kind.  Trips to the hospital are helpful because when the professionals see the symptoms we see at home all the time, help is more forthcoming.  Once dad was in long term care, mom had personal space at home, the 24/7 stress was gone, and with enough attention from us she gradually recovered enough so that she was able to go visit him 3X/day and help feed him etc (we went on weekends cs. we were still working, and had little kids).  This she actually did quite well, probably because it made her look good to the staff.  Everything was about her.  He was in long term care for 1 full year before he died.  He was at home for about 2-3 years after being diagnosed, and before he went into long term care.  
   So, I would suggest trying to get intervention for your mom before she becomes embedded in making the wrong choices, such as not accepting help.  Hopefully it's not too late for that, or she is simply quite willing to accept it.  We just didn't see it coming (her refusal to accept help), and probably wouldn't have believed it if anyone had tried to warn us, because it was just so impossibly irrational.  I suspect now that she would have attributed it as a failure on her part back then, and she wanted to appear to everyone as being the "perfect caregiver".  But that's only hindsight.
   Upon reflection all these years later, and after learning about BP, my mom was terrified of being abondoned, but BP's can't allow themselves to feel fear (esp of abandonment), so they get angry instead.  How I wish I had known then what I know now.  But I didn't.  So she got angry.  At everyone.  After dad died (the ultimate abandonment), she went into a gradual tailspin, until about a year later when she was talking suicidal kinds of stuff, and I packed her up into my vehicle one day and told her we were going for a drive.  Then I drove her to the doctor.  Thankfully, she came with me, because the next step was to call an ambulance.  
  My dad was the kind of person who was friendly with everyone, honest, kind, gentle, loving, hard working, and respected and appreciated by everyone who knew him.  He was a saint.  Everyone liked him.  He didn't deserve any of this treatment from her.  You also spoke positive things about your dad.  I'm feeling so much for you right now, because I've been through something similar and I think I "get it".  
  It's been 14 years since my dad passed, and living in the same town with my uBPD mom has been really really hard.  The last few weeks I've been feeling just a tiny bit hopeful about my relationship with her, because I've completely given up the expectations I have of her as my mother.  I am emotionally detaching, I'm reading everything about BP I can get my hands on, and every day I am "processing".  I am learning new tools for how to interact with her (how we non BP's interact with other non's, does NOT work with BP's (!), and I have reduced contact, which she is not happy about.  I am finally dedicating some time to self-care.  Self-care is critical, ESPECIALLY as the demands and stress of your father's illness start to increase down the road.  It's so hard, because as your father's cancer starts to progress, and your mother becomes more difficult, those demands will take up more of your time, but that's EXACTLY when self-care becomes more important.  There will probably be a lot of hard times ahead, and you will feel like you are going crazy.  But if we start to fall apart, we can't help anyone else.  So give yourselves permission for self-care, and family time to enjoy your kids.  Don't fall into the FOG trap she sets.  What has helped me the most recently, is learning the new skills/tools to interact with BP's.  If you have any questions, or thoughts, I'm here for you.  Back when I was going through this, I had no one who understood because no friends or family knew my mom was BP.  We're all here for you, anytime you need it.

  

[zachira]

"What happens when I excuse myself from a conversation and that just sends her down a spiral of "No one cares about me, no one wants to talk to me." I'm only just now realizing that my entire childhood, I was made to feel responsible for her emotions."
Yes, you are right on target when you say you are being made to feel responsible for your mother's emotions. You have described some strategies that you are using that are helping you to be less affected by your mom's dumping her feelings on you. I am wondering if you can somehow make yourself less of a dumping grounds for your mom's feelings by not being so affected by how she behaves, which is easier said than done when this is your mother and your have to have a relationship with her to be able to see your father. Therapy and distancing myself from my mother have helped me a lot so when she died this summer, it was more of a relief and there just weren't many negative feelings left to process because I had already done so, and I had interacted so little with my mom in the last couple of years. Just some thoughts which may or may not be helpful. It is just so painful to see your father mistreated and to be mistreated yourself.

[Harri]

Methuen, that is some really great information you shared.   

zachira made a good point about detaching emotionally from your mom.  It does not mean being distant rather to get to the point where she is not able to get in your head as much.  It is possible and goes back to what Methuen said about learning about the disorder and what drives the behaviors so you can depersonalize them.  Methuen also mentioned having realistic expectations and that is vital.  Your mom is who she is and she is not capable of certain things like putting your father first.  I assume she does not handle stress and grief well and that is a big part of what is driving her to talk and act the way she is.  Your parents have a long history and have their own dynamic going.  Even if it all seems hurtful and dysfunctional to us, it is their relationship.  I don't mean that as harshly as it reads.  A lot of us have had to accept that. 
 

"What happens when I excuse myself from a conversation and that just sends her down a spiral of "No one cares about me, no one wants to talk to me." I'm only just now realizing that my entire childhood, I was made to feel responsible for her emotions."

Your mom needs to learn to self soothe and return to center on her own.  You can't do that for her.   Validation can only go so far and you can only listen to so much.  If you have been responsible for her feelings since you were a child, I imagine there is a strong pull to step in and fix and soothe?  If so, a good portion of your challenge will be learning to reign in those impulses and learning to self-soothe so you can return to center.

Keep posting.  This is a lot to take in and try to absorb.  We all work together to help each other do it though. 

[Turkish]

My mom laments that my dad "doesn't talk to her." But he does! He's just a quiet guy in general, but so incredibly loving and known and loved in my community for being such a kind man. My mom resents that! "Everyone thinks he's so great." It's truly because he is.

The first part sounds like how my ex used to accuse me (I'm stable, part of what attracted me to her), while the second sounds like what my mother used to say to me. I think she was jealous that she had to put up with me, the  , while everyone else thought I was so great. In common, those emotions were about them. 

I'm sorry about what is happening to your dad.  I saw a friend taken by brain cancer. You might need to advocate and step in for your dad at some point if your mom fails to, in order to make sure his needs are being met. 

[Notwendy]

I don't have much to add to the great advice here, but to sadly say you are not the only one who has experienced this. I am sorry for your news about your father. Keep in mind that the relationship between your parents with her BPD issues is a long term relationship- and he is involved in this too, likely as her enabler.

At this point, I hope you can enjoy the time you have with your father. This situation has to be stressful for any family and a person with BPD will find it hard to cope. Likewise, your father may struggle with the change in his role- as rescuer, enabler if he is not able to caretake her. My father did a lot for my mother- she didn't drive and he aimed to make her happy no matter what- which was a huge ( and IMHO not possible- she's not a happy person) task that he could succeed at - at times. My FOO revolved around her needs, and when this changed to us kids being focused on Dad's needs, the dynamics in the family changed.

I am glad you have a good support system. It's hard to see a father ill, and hard to lose a father. Take care of yourself.

[TelHill]

Is it possible to place your father in a hospice? He would get the palliative care he needs.

It could give you alone time with dad without mom being around. Less drama is best at this time.

[aproprose]

@Metheun WOW our situations sound so very similar.

Here's the new flavor of the day. My mom is blast texting my brothers for not texting or calling her enough and that she's very upset with them for not supporting her emotionally. "I am so hurt you don't think of me when you know it would mean so much." The fact is though, they HAVE, though some more than others. They visit the house, run errands, check in on her with texts or calls. How can they possibly validate what she's saying? They are not going to say they're going to call her more, because her erratic behavior has them feeling alienated.

Coming up stumped on how to deal with this. For them, they just want to ignore her entirely.

Then she comes to me, and complains how my brothers don't talk to her. "Emotionally distant father produce emotionally distant sons." She resents my dad and has made this all a part of her narrative that my dad is to blame.

My mom went to a new counselor today, but she hated it. She said the woman was on her computer the whole time (?) and didn't say anything and it was in a dark and dingy room. She doesn't want to go back. I don't know whether she'll accept help. I want to try a counselor again, I think it's really important but I think she's always going to find a reason that she doesn't like them.

[aproprose]

She also just said "Your dad probably told them all I'm crazy so that's what they think."

She is so cruel. I can't respond.

[aproprose]

Sorry for the spam, just having these short burst thoughts. I can't validate her saying horrible things about my dad who's dying.

[Methuen]

Hi Aproprose,

I can hear your frustration.  It sounds like you are at your wits end with an impossible situation.  

I can't validate her saying horrible things about my dad who's dying.

It sounds like your mom is needing "help", as did my mom.  But my mom refused help when she needed it (during dad's illness), and it sounds like your mom is resisting help as well.  I sometimes wonder if the BP's idea of "help" in these situations is to ignore the problem at home (husband's illness-potentially terminal) and instead shift all the attention away from dad, and onto herself, because she is spiraling down with the stress of your dad's medical diagnosis and unable to manage her emotions.  So "help" becomes about her, and not taking care of dad.  But "we" the children, of course are thinking about our dads because they have terminal illnesses.  So there is a huge disconnect there.  Talking to my mom ("rationalizing") with her was hopeless, and only led to more conflict.  It doesn't work to try and have a rational conversation with a person who is thinking, acting, and behaving irrationally (but acting on personal "emotion" instead). In hindsight, and having been through this with my mom, I would do things differently if I had a second chance to do it all over again.  What would I do differently?  Well - I'm going to quote something Harri wrote earlier in this thread:

Your mom needs to learn to self soothe and return to center on her own.  You can't do that for her.   Validation can only go so far and you can only listen to so much.  If you have been responsible for her feelings since you were a child, I imagine there is a strong pull to step in and fix and soothe?  If so, a good portion of your challenge will be learning to reign in those impulses and learning to self-soothe so you can return to center.

What Harri is saying is exactly what I would do now instead of what I did 14 years ago.  We can't fix our mothers.  My experience with my mom, is that the more time and attention I give her, and the more I cater to her, and pander to her emotional needs, the worse she becomes.  Enmeshment and dependence.  I know that didn't work.  It was aweful.  

In addition to the 4 points I made in my earlier post a few days ago, I would say, go ahead and focus on your dad.  This is about him after all, and either helping him recover (if that's a possibility), or, making whatever time is left with him count, especially while there is still quality of life for him, but also at the end of his life.  That is where your energy needs to be.  That is what is reasonable and right to most rational people.

My mom complained to me about everything too.  I don't have a good answer.  Sometimes in life, I think we have to give them the room to crash and "hit their bottom".  What I mean by this is the only way they learn, is to self-destruct first.  When they hit their bottom, then they become ready to accept help.  Anything else such as trying to solve their problems by offering ideas and solutions, actually becomes invalidating in a twisted kind of way.  Sometimes they don't even want a solution.  Having a "crisis" was normal for my mom.  It's super hard to comprehend, but having a crisis is a normal feeling and "emotive state" for her, and so she didn't really want the crisis solved (although she couldn't see that or express it because it's all subconscious, and just a part of their BPD).
    My mom recently "hit her bottom" (I let her get there all on her own), and without going into details, she went to her Dr and asked for antidepressants (this was an acceptable solution to her because two of her friends are already on the anti-D she asked for and it's helped both of them.  If I had suggested a trip to the Dr, guaranteed she would NOT have gone).  I truly believe that I have to let my mom make all her own mistakes, and not sweep in to try and prevent a bunch of bad decisions on her part.   So that is where I'm coming from when I refer back the Harri's quote.  What I have learned is "I can't fix my mom, or her problems".  "Trying" will lead to chaos, and hell, and prolong the whole ordeal.  I'm happy to report, that my mom's anti-depressant has made a really positive difference.  She's sleeping better, she's more positive, she's less anxious, she's less narcisistic, and she's less likely to go "BPD" on me.

The problem for you, is that your mom's current self-destruction is going to hurt your dad.  

I get it.  The only answer I have there, is to inform medical professionals who may be able to help, but be sure to bring up confidentiality when you raise the topic, so they understand their response should improve the situation for you and your siblings, NOT make it worse.  They may have ideas for how to support the family in this situation.  But you will need to make them aware of the issues to  give them a chance to offer ideas.  Do NOT NOT NOT do it with your mom around.  Guarantee she will pick up on it.  GUARANTEED.  At least that is my experience with my mom.  To this day, mom won't let me go to a Dr appt with her because of something I said 14 years ago with the Dr.  It needed to be said because I was my dad's only advocate, and I don't regret saying it, but I would be absolutely 100% certain that my mom could not walk into the room or overhear in that moment (which is exactly what happened to me).

Everybody has to handle these situations their own way, but based on my past experience, I think Harri is on to something.

[Harri]

How can they possibly validate what she's saying?

You don't.  Aside from being personally offensive to you that would be validating the invalid which is something that you do not want to do, ever.  Validation is not the only tool and it does not always work, nor is it possible to find a validation target in all situations, especially when we are emotionally upset. 

I find if I am going to validate, validating the feelings of the person works best.  I also try to combine it using SET (sympathy, empathy, truth).  So if you can figure out what she is feeling you can say something like "I would be upset too if I felt that they were ignoring me (or whatever).  It is not pleasant and I am sure it hurts. " and then listen to what she says.  You may need to validate some more (if there is something to validate) or you can move to a T=truth statement that focuses on you, how you are feeling, and is said without anger or resentment.

Can you think of anything that you might say here?  once removed, an admin here wrote this in another thread and I think you might be able to mine some ideas from what he said:   SET: Am I getting it right?

Remember, be gentle with yourself first here.  This is a very painful time for you as well and I get that.     I know some days it will be near impossible to focus and use all of the tools.  On those days, sometimes the best you can do is be sure not to invalidate even if that means saying nothing.   I like combining SET with validation and Don't Jade as they all work together very well.  You can also use all of those tools to set boundaries for yourself as well.   It takes time to learn and apply the skills and you are learning all of this under very very trying circumstances.  We get that.  So come here and write and we can support and help tweak some responses or give some perspective.   Most of all though, we can listen.   

[aproprose]

Here’s something I tried yesterday. Would love your feedback.  Nothing my brothers do is enough for her, she’s convinced they don’t call or text her enough and don’t love her. She blames this all on dad! “Emotionally absent fathers produce emotionally absent sons. He’s told them I’m crazy and they probably believe them.”

My response: “I hear what you’re saying, I would feel very hurt too. It sounds like you hold a lot of resentment towards dad and the boys, this is why I think a counselor would be helpful for you to deal with those feelings. It must be hard to take care of dad every day with those feelings inside.”

She agreed with me! But then an hour later, out of the blue, she said that she was upset that I thought she resented dad.

This is where I think I messed up, I said “sorry I misunderstood your feelings.” Am I validating the invalid? She DOES resent my dad.

Here’s the WAY bigger issue and something I really need your guys’ advice on. Things have escalated in the past couple of days and we’re really questioning her mental state and whether she’s capable to take care of my dad.

She went on a rant to all of us last night that she had decided to stop his chemo treatment. No discussion, no invitation to talk, and this was over TEXT. She says that dad is on death’s door and we need to stop making him suffer.

This is NOT TRUE. My sister in law went on a 2 mile walk with him yesterday morning, he said he was feeling much better and was in a great mood! A man who is dying does not walk 2 miles. Also mom is speaking for my dad, instead of asking wha he wants. He has said multiple times he wants to fight this so he can have as long as possible.

She is withholding contact from my dad’s friends, several of them have remarked that she doesn’t respond to them.  They keep asking to come visit and she doesn’t let them.

We are trying to get a visiting nurse in the home, that is something that can help immediately, but I’m incredibly scared and frustrated for my dad. We feel like she just wants him to die as soon as possible, she’s said things to this effect, so she can move on with her life. We were all talking about how we wish we could be the ones to take care of him. I’m afraid she’s killing him between her inadequate care and her constant emotional outbursts that are confusing and upsetting to him.

We honestly wish there was a way we could manage dad’s care, not her, which puts us in a whole legal tangle. We are actually consulting with an elder care lawyer today to see what our future options are. It all feels incredibly cold hearted but we want what’s best for our dad. Not sure how much we can do, we’ll see.

[Turkish]

It might be time to in involve APS (Adult Ptotective Services). What do others think?

[Methuen]

She agreed with me! But then an hour later, out of the blue, she said that she was upset that I thought she resented dad.

  So from my experience with my mom, and based on what my counsellor has said to me, this kind of thing is classic.  Hopefully I'm interpreting my counselling correctly here, but when my mom would react in a similar way, it was because she "uncomfortable" with having something go smoothly.  She NEEDED a crisis, so maybe that could be why an hour later she had twisted it into being upset again.  Honestly, I wouldn't overthink it to try to explain the behavior, because an explanation probably isn't that helpful in this situation anyways.  Focus on your dad, and getting him care that will support him.

Not sure what APS is, but it sounds like there does need to be some strong advocacy and outside involvement.  Does your dad have a family Dr?  Does his Dr know what's going on (i.e. have the "full" picture)?  If they are made aware, don't they have some duty to act on that knowledge (since it's clearly going to affect his well-being)?  Maybe get your dad's Dr (or some other health professional) to put in a back door call to her own physician?  You could also contact her physician, and report to her doctor what you have reported here, if you haven't already done that.  Does your mom see a doctor or therapist?  Sorry for all the questions.
   It sounds like you and your siblings are working together so that is a really big plus in all this.  Celebrate that.  It's huge.  It also sounds like you are working together on ways to take action.  Keep doing what you are doing.  You are all doing what needs to be done, as best as you can given the circumstances.  

[Panda39]

She went on a rant to all of us last night that she had decided to stop his chemo treatment. No discussion, no invitation to talk, and this was over TEXT. She says that dad is on death’s door and we need to stop making him suffer.

First of all it isn't her decision whether he stops chemo or not, he is (at least for now) able to make his own choices about his healthcare.  Secondly, this is what she "says" but what is she "doing"?  Has your dad actually missed an appointment?

Of course you want to make sure your dad is being taken care of properly and getting treatment, and I'm not trying to minimize things but this sounds like FOG (Fear Obligation Guilt) or emotional blackmail.  Just like my Partner's ex would use their children as tools of engagment it seems to me that your mom is using your dad the same way.

This type of text is designed to instill Fear and get you to engage with her in some drama.  Negative attention is still attention.  I personally would not respond to this, watch and wait.  If your dad starts missing appointments then you have an issue, but until then I would leave this alone.  Because it could just be drama bait. 

A link to more on FOG in case you haven't seen it already... https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

Panda39

[Harri]

Hi.  I can't respond completely right now but I do want to suggest that you and your brothers talk to your parents about Durable Power of Attorney for Healthcare.   
Medical Power of Attorney. This is a special type of power of attorney that gives someone the authority to make medical treatment decisions for you in the event you are mentally or physically unable to make your own decisions. Depending on the state you live in, you may see this type of document referred to by other names, such as a Durable Power of Attorney for Health Care, Designation of Patient Advocate, Designation of Health Care Surrogate, Health Care Proxy, or something similar.

Now is the time for this conversation.  Your father is currently able to make his own decisions and that is fine.  Unfortunately, there will come a time when he can not.  Your mom is not in a place emotionally to be able to make the choices that will be need to made and it sounds like her thoughts are different from your dads.  Even if BPD traits were not in the picture it is very difficult for a loved one to make these decisions and some just can't.  That is okay and where a health care proxy comes in.

Have this conversation now and take action now.  You can talk with your dad privately.  If it were me, i would present this idea to your mom as a decision that has been made by your father (assuming he agrees) and actually your dad can tell her this with you all being there to support him.  Present it to mom as a way of taking off the pressure of such decisions as it is emotionally difficult for a spouse.  Make it about helping her and doing what you can to take care of her and your dad during this time.

Don't wait.  When I got sick, one of the first things I did was get this settled so I had peace of mind.  I also have a DNR on file with the hospital I use and the visiting nurses who come.  My doctors are aware of my wishes and I have copies filed with the hospital, the nursing agency and my brother has a copy.  He will have minimal responsibility for decision making for me regarding life and death issues or even treatment.  I won't put him in that position.

Thoughts?

[Notwendy]

I think all the suggestions- involve his medical team, adult protective services, home health care- all are good ones. If you choose to do any of them, please do it for your own sake, for his own best interest, so you know you tried to help your father no matter how your parents respond or choose to see it.

I did all those things, and believed they were in my father's best interest.

A large influence on how things went had to do with the dynamics between them. He was her rescuer, her enabler and it was his choice to do this. I did speak to his health care team but it broke the "family secret" and our rule to pretend that "mother is normal" ( she is severely BPD). My Dad found out and was angry at me.

I called social services to report her abuse ( she did abuse him) and they said unless he was willing to admit the charges, they could do nothing. He was still mentally and legally competent.

He accepted some home health, but that too risked "exposure" of my mother. She was present at all visits or stood by the door and listened in to their conversations so that she knew he would not talk about her. She also listened in on any phone calls I made to him on the phone extension.

In my own distress, I took her on directly- screamed at her- for her behavior. That was it for her. I wasn't aware of BPD dynamics- the Karpman triangle or the dynamics between my parents. She took victim perspective- painted me black to her family and also to my father. He jumped in to defend her and was angry at me.

My parents were married for decades, and their relationship dynamics were mutual. Just as she was responsible for her behavior, she was his main focus.

All I can say to you is- do what you think is best for your father. If you need to report abuse, involve his medical team for his own sake- then do it, so you can have the peace you tried. On the other hand, know that the dynamics between your parents are older than you are, and if he's her rescuer, enabler - he may not go along with suggestions that don't involve this. Please read about the Karpman triangle so that you don't take your mother's reactions personally.

I hope you can spend some quality time with your father and I wish you all the strength to get through this tough situation. Don't forget to take care of yourself too.