BPD or NPD? Or both?

[Astray]

Hello again, it's been a while. Things have been tough but I think I'm starting to make some headway. I have been NC for about 4 or 5 months now. I have only recently realised that to heal properly I need to stop checking her online presence, reading old text messages and looking at old photos. I was ripping the scab off the wound on a regular basis because of this. No more!

Quite a few people I've talked to in recent months about my ex with suspected BPD have said to me, "Gosh, she sounds like a narcissistic psychopath." So I've been looking into this, reading a lot of articles online and the obligatory YouTube videos etc. And it looks to me like her behaviour fits that of the typical 'covert' narcissist to a tee, as well. Reading people's stories of recovery from narcissistic abuse, what they've been through, it looks the same as my experience. To my mind, my ex's behaviour fits a diagnosis of BPD and NPD equally. As does my experience of trying to recover.

So I'd like to ask people's views on this: what do you think, what does your experience suggest? Is there a significant overlap between these two disorders in your opinion?

[Plucky1980]

Hello again, it's been a while. Things have been tough but I think I'm starting to make some headway. I have been NC for about 4 or 5 months now. I have only recently realised that to heal properly I need to stop checking her online presence, reading old text messages and looking at old photos. I was ripping the scab off the wound on a regular basis because of this. No more!

Quite a few people I've talked to in recent months about my ex with suspected BPD have said to me, "Gosh, she sounds like a narcissistic psychopath." So I've been looking into this, reading a lot of articles online and the obligatory YouTube videos etc. And it looks to me like her behaviour fits that of the typical 'covert' narcissist to a tee, as well. Reading people's stories of recovery from narcissistic abuse, what they've been through, it looks the same as my experience. To my mind, my ex's behaviour fits a diagnosis of BPD and NPD equally. As does my experience of trying to recover.

So I'd like to ask people's views on this: what do you think, what does your experience suggest? Is there a significant overlap between these two disorders in your opinion?

I quite firmly believe that my ex was a mix of the two. She frequently did the push/pull behaviour and displayed often alarming levels of irrationality, indecisiveness and recklessness when making even important decisions (jobs, family issues, our relationship) whilst displaying a complete lack of empathy and very little affection. I had a psychotherapist tell me that she suspected BPD but also that the almost total absence of empathy was alarming. The only criticism she levelled at me was that I should've jumped before I was pushed out of the relationship, so to speak.

It makes the fact that I still think about her and feel anger and bitterness very confusing. This is a woman really unfit to be in a relationship with, in retrospect.

[lucidone]

They're both cluster B personality disorders, and there is an overlap between these disorders.  Theres also a high degree of comorbidity among these disorders, so it's certainly possible for her to have characteristics of both.  I feel that my exbpd had both to a degree.

[Pytagoras]

At the begining, i thought my exBPDgf was BPD. But now, i definitely think she had comorbidity between BPD and NPD. Extremely manipulative, lack of empathy, even that smirk she gave, when she was lying and cheating. Dating her new bf's and exploting me for my money and other stuff...

I think BPD and NPD overlap a lot. And it's much worse, much cold and inhuman when NPD enters in scene.

[Plucky1980]

At the begining, i thought my exBPDgf was BPD. But now, i definitely think she had comorbidity between BPD and NPD. Extremely manipulative, lack of empathy, even that smirk she gave, when she was lying and cheating. Dating her new bf's and exploting me for my money and other stuff...

I think BPD and NPD overlap a lot. And it's much worse, much cold and inhuman when NPD enters in scene.

Totally agree.

My ex dumped me and then literally 20 minutes later she was singing and smiling along to a song on the radio. No normal, healthy human being does that.

I think that singular aspect of the breaking up process will stay with me until I die. I've never seen anyone do it before, and I hope I never see that kind of behaviour again.

[Astray]

Thanks everyone, I had a feeling that a lot of people's experiences would be similar to mine. My ex had, on the surface, very low self esteem and was really nothing like the typical picture of a boastful, self-centred narcissist. However, she never sincerely expressed remorse for any of her actions - if I got an apology out of her it was that kind of teenage, eye-rolling "sorry" and that was it. I was expected to drop it then.

At the end of our relationship I was constantly bombarded with paranoia, I was clearly talking to lots of other women and stuff like that. But, as I found out the last time we spoke, at this time she was already back living with her previous partner. Even when I got her to admit this, there was no genuine remorse or regret. So cold!

I'm actually making some progress now as there seem to be a lot more resources and information available regarding narcissistic abuse as opposed to BPD abuse. I think I am actually starting to detach from her with the help of these resources. It's been over a year...

[Pytagoras]

My ex dumped me and then literally 20 minutes later she was singing and smiling along to a song on the radio. No normal, healthy human being does that.

I remember reading that in other post of yours. The emotional detachment it's incredible. And weeks later, it would not be unlikely that she would desperately try to reengage, if she needs it.

The absence of grieving it's not normal per se. Some people here says that they grieve. Yes, they can feel sorry and feel victims "poor me" of the situation, but i don't think they really grieve, not a true, healthy grief, anyway. But, maybe that depends also of the severity of their condition. It's a continuum. I've read here stories in wich they seem like angels compared to may exgf, and i also read stories in wich they are even worse.

My exgf exibit "duping delight", wich is, according to Paul Ekman: "...the near irresistible thrill some people feel in taking a risk and getting away with it. Sometimes it includes contempt for the target who is being so ruthlessly and successfully exploited. It is hard to contain duping delight; those who feel it want to share their accomplishments with others, seeking admiration for their exploits.”

90% of her satisfaction of being banged by another guys, is to hurt / get revenge of the bf. She told me once that she introduced the guys she was dating, as friends, to her bf, and dated her bf friends as well. That kind of danger / preversity gave her plenty of satisfaction.

[Pytagoras]

Astray,

I think that lack of remorse is, sometimes, a BPD feature as well. NPD are always boasting, always feeling better then the others, always saying that others envy them.

My exgf did all of that.

And yes, both of them have really low self-esteem.

[Astray]

As a side note, regarding the lack of empathy or humanity. After she'd discarded me and I was still trying to get answers from her, she was so desperate to get me off her case she threatened to call social services to report me for "interfering" with my 5-year-old daughter. This child was someone she had built up a very close relationship with, who absolutely adored her. Yet she could threaten that without flinching.

It chills my blood to think of it even now.

[Astray]

Astray,

I think that lack of remorse is, sometimes, a BPD feature as well. NPD are always boasting, always feeling better then the others, always saying that others envy them.

My exgf did all of that.

And yes, both of them have really low self-esteem.

I think the boastfulness is more a trait of 'overt' narcissism. The 'covert' or 'vulnerable' type tend not to be boastful, they might be feeling this superiority but don't express it, because their narcissistic supply depends on portraying themselves as vulnerable victims. So in that regard there's a great deal of overlap with BPD.

[Pytagoras]

I think the boastfulness is more a trait of 'overt' narcissism. The 'covert' or 'vulnerable' type tend not to be boastful, they might be feeling this superiority but don't express it, because their narcissistic supply depends on portraying themselves as vulnerable victims. So in that regard there's a great deal of overlap with BPD.

Yes, that is possible. Covering the grandiouse sense of self is a kind of manipulation.

[Astray]

I was just writing an entry about this in my blog, and it reminded me of something.

She used to send me links to some of these YouTube videos and asking me whether I thought I was a narcissist. Yet more projection! I wish I'd actually paid more attention to them now and maybe could have got the blinkers off, seen that it was actually her that was the narcissist. It would have saved me a whole lot of pain.

[gizmocasci]

I also believe that my ex partner showed signs of both as well. Although she never went into therapy with me, my therapist was able to make me see, by the things I had told her. I was told when triggered, they use these personalities as a defense mechanism. I had never met a person like this in my life, and I'm glad (although it was extremely difficult) I was able to walk away from it only 8 months in. I experienced some amazing highs, but also some crippling lows. It's interesting to look back at my instagram posts, because you can almost see this arch in my timeline. I still miss her dearly, but she's a tornado. I'll gladly let some other guy get sucked up into her storm.

Continued luck on your healing.

R

[once removed]

the first, best thing to determine is why we are asking the question (BPD or NPD or both).

another member here had a good take on the same question.

I think it helps to look at why we label these things at all... Some reasons are (over simplified):

             Clinicians do it to understand outcomes and lock into evidence treatment protocols and an international effort to improve a knowledge base.

Family members do it to gain perspective in relationship dynamics and find/refine tools. This is simliar to executives doing Myers-Briggs exercise so that the team can be more productive.

Angry exs do it make go/no go decisions on turbulent relationships or cope with failed relationships.

As a general concern, I think too many people are caught up in this Internet frenzy to label people as narcissists. If you had a bad breakup 20 years ago, the person was bipolar. 10 years ago, BPD.  Last 5 years, NPD or Psychopath.  The general population went from "no awareness of personality disorders" to "every annoying person has a personality disorder". It's kinda crazy.

A second general concern,I think there is an growing business of unregulated life coaches and self published "self help" writers who are pushing their own theories to sell product.  So we have an established, peer reviewed clinical body of science, but more people prefer the ideas of an ex-hairstylist, or ex-personal trainer on youtube. We wouldn't let a self proclaimed surgeon ex-hairstylist, or ex-personal trainer remove our tonsils - but we don't need a PhD psychologist operating with peer oversight to attend to our mind.  

labels can certainly help if we use them constructively, although, as ex romantic partners, there is only so much good they can do us now.

how do we as non-experts determine which one, and why?

the DSM discourages using it with a sort of cookbook approach. part of the reason why is that its very easy to look at how we felt in a given moment, and attribute motivations like manipulation or see things like grandiosity and this doesnt necessarily match with what the other person was experiencing or thinking. lots of immature people have difficulty apologizing, for example. lots of breakups feel really cold; every single breakup i ever went through, felt really really cold, to me. but these things arent indicative of psychopathology. a lot of this stuff is much more common than we might think.

so one way it can be helpful to use is in understanding how our relationship broke down, and the particular behaviors that we struggled with.

for example, i had a very jealous ex. it was something i struggled with a lot, and was totally overwhelmed by. it helped me, over time, to better understand what was driving it. it also helped me to understand that my reactions to it werent constructive for the most part, and made things worse. likewise, its not something i want to go through again...jealousy is unattractive to me and feels really smothering. but you know, there was a payoff at the same time. it made me feel secure in my relationship in a way i never had before. all of those things were important for me to examine in my detaching process.

a lot of us struggle with one moment being the best person in the world, and in the next minute, the worst. its confusing. its disorienting. its difficult to adapt to. its characteristic of people with bpd traits (among other things) and that can give us a better understanding of our experience and help us detach.

i understand determining which label to use is important to you; it was to me too. navigating the mental health field isnt easy. most of what is online, and especially on youtube, is junk, and more harmful than helpful. i gravitated toward a lot of it myself, and had a lot to unlearn.

at the top of the forum, in the green box that says "Diagnosis + Treatment" we have several links that will help.

these are good places to start: https://bpdfamily.com/#clinical-overview
https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-borderline-personality-disorder
https://bpdfamily.com/content/traits-personality-disorder
https://bpdfamily.com/content/borderline-personality-disorder

[Astray]

once removed, I am sure you don't mean it to come across that way but that reads pretty dismissive.

I've been around a while and I've been in a number of relationships; this isn't my first "bad breakup". However it's the first that has caused a reaction like this in me. And I am fully aware of my own part in what went wrong, in this and other relationships, and I do not seek to deny or excuse this.

I'm not searching for a label. I have been trying to understand why she behaved in such a manipulative fashion, and also why I failed to recognise that while the relationship was ongoing.

I've read some things and seen some videos by, as your unnamed poster refers to them, "ex-hairstylists" etc. I'm an intelligent, mature person and I consider what is said and take it for what it is: one person's perspective. I also read the work of clinical psychologists and other specialists and generally I take that a little more seriously. But it's all worth taking in and giving consideration.

I'm sure you didn't mean for your post to seem quite as patronising as it does, especially as I've read a number of very insightful posts from you on here. If you haven't actually read my story in my posts, I understand, but please don't dismiss this as a "bad breakup". It's hard not to take offence at that. If it was merely a "bad breakup", believe me, I would not be seeking advice on the internet. I'd have got on with my life a long time ago.

[once removed]

i also bristled when people minimized my experienced. thats the furthest thing from my intention. i know how hard all of this is. i step in it sometimes. bear with me 

stage three of detaching is called Processing: becoming aware of what has been useful in our journey; the lessons we want to take into future relationships (im not suggesting any of us need to be in that stage. its something to aim for.).

learning more about mental health and psychology can be invaluable in that process; not only in understanding your relationship, and learning from it, but in better knowing yourself, and others. it will take you far. you wont go through this sort of pain again, you will thrive.

but its easy to go in the other direction. im just trying to offer some caution, as someone who did that myself.

I'm not searching for a label.

okay. i didnt mean to put words in your mouth. you want to better understand what youve been through, and how to heal.

lets do that.

can you list here some of the more difficult behaviors that you struggled with, in detail?

[BrokenSpokane]

I quite firmly believe that my ex was a mix of the two. She frequently did the push/pull behaviour and displayed often alarming levels of irrationality, indecisiveness and recklessness when making even important decisions (jobs, family issues, our relationship) whilst displaying a complete lack of empathy and very little affection. I had a psychotherapist tell me that she suspected BPD but also that the almost total absence of empathy was alarming. The only criticism she levelled at me was that I should've jumped before I was pushed out of the relationship, so to speak.

It makes the fact that I still think about her and feel anger and bitterness very confusing.

Wow, that's the same with my ex. Zero empathy, even towards her kids. She's probably got both as well.

[dt9000]

I was just writing an entry about this in my blog, and it reminded me of something.

She used to send me links to some of these YouTube videos and asking me whether I thought I was a narcissist. Yet more projection! I wish I'd actually paid more attention to them now and maybe could have got the blinkers off, seen that it was actually her that was the narcissist. It would have saved me a whole lot of pain.

I've read 'somewhere' that BPD's can think their loved ones are narcissistic. They feel so much emotional turmoil from the relationship that they believe there must be something wrong with the other person. My BPDex has repeatedly accused me of being a narcissist i.e. "Congratulations! You're in the DSM-5 too!".  She even said her T thought I was a narcissist, even though I never met her T. It's somewhat funny in hindsight, but she had me going at the time.

[SinisterComplex]

Astray, it is quite possible it is comorbid BPD/NPD. Now an interesting thing during my case studies in my bachelor's degree program in abnormal psychology I found to be fascinating is that a person who has BPD can develop what seems like NPD as a learned behavior due to a previous partner and ultimately they learn to use the behavior as a defense mechanism. BPD sufferers mirror behavior, but they are human beings who learn just like the rest of us despite their brains being wired differently. Not saying that is the case here, but a possibility. Additionally, keep in mind that a lack of empathy is quite common in someone who has BPD. Lack of empathy is what is more of a shared trait with people who suffer from NPD so even when a lack of empathy is displayed it doesn't necessarily mean NPD is at play. I know this may sound harsh to say, but a professor of mine once said that those with BPD may appear to lack empathy and be narcissistic simply because they are for lack of a better way of putting it...clumsy with trying to get their needs met and do not know how put words to their thoughts or feelings.

Just to enter something else into the discussion for some food for thought...do you have any idea what her MBTI personality type may have been?

To be clear, I come from a supportive place and only mean to promote more discussion to bounce ideas to help with understanding and healing. I hope I hit the mark. If I potentially come off as patronizing or anything of the sort...that is not not my intent here at all.

Cheers and best wishes!

[SinisterComplex]

DT9000, BPD sufferers in their distorted views of reality believe that there has to be something wrong with you to care about them and/or love them. In essence, they cannot comprehend or deal with the fact that you may be normal and they are not. So to get control they have to see you as defective as well. In your example, it sounds like more of the typical smear campaign that bpd sufferers use.

For all intents and purposes if you were a narcissist you would not be on this board. You wouldn't care one bit. Just being on the board means you are looking for meaning and trying to understand and trying to heal and better yourself. So don't take anything personally in regard to a bpd sufferer. Just understand what you have explained is par for the course. As long as you stick with you know what the truth is and you know what reality is then you will be fine.

Cheers and best wishes!

[Astray]

Hi SinisterComplex, and thanks very much for your interesting post. I did not find it at all patronising!

I think there are definite elements of both in her behaviour. She has many of the traits that describe a 'covert' narcissist. And I am not always sure that she deliberately set out to hurt me and I think she did believe she loved me at some point. When I asked her, after she had cheated on me and then finished with me, why she had kept me going for so long when she was already in another relationship she said she was "addicted" to me.

In terms of a lack of empathy, she once told me she never felt sympathy or upset when she heard of large numbers of people dying in disasters or wars. She asked me if I thought something was wrong with her. She totally lacks a conscience. She never felt bad about hurting and cheating on her previous partner with me, or about doing the same to me when she got back with him. I think she locks out such feelings because of the huge black hole within her; I do not believe she has what one might term a 'soul'. She is something of an emotional vampire.

I have no idea about her MBTI type, nor about my own!

I haven't been on this board much lately and I find life is better when I don't think about her too much. It's around this time last year that I was at my lowest ebb as a result of her deceit, lies and abuse. I'm making some headway in terms of recovery but I find going over the past rakes up a lot of stuff I want to leave in the ground.

The main thing for me at the moment is learning not to be the kind of person who gets taken in by people like her. I was dating a fair bit earlier in the year and had a couple of close ones; it seems I attract vampires. I'm definitely a codependent type, with an insecure attachment style, and that's the greatest change I need to make, personally.

[SinisterComplex]

Well the first step to fixing your problem is admitting you have a problem. No one is perfect. Being codependent definitely brings the wrong people into your life. Such as the person you dealt with. People like that are emotional vampires because they are empty on the inside because they haven't dealt with their own problems. Anyway, I think your mindset is on point, but I will add to it and say don't just try to learn...be like Nike...Just Do It!

Cheers!

[Astray]

You're absolutely right. I met her when I was at my most vulnerable. At the time, I thought she was in a worse emotional shape than me, and I guess she is, but the predatory creature in her, consciously or not, saw me as an easy target. On top of everything else I was flattered! Like I said, my ego got me into this mess and I'm finally starting to recognise that and deal with it.

I feel sorry for her, because she has many good things going for her, but until she deals with the vacuum inside her she's always going to be at war with herself and the world around her. It took me a long time to realise that I was never going to be able to help her, much as I tried. I now understand that I can only change myself, not anyone else.

Thanks for your excellent words. I agree with and will take your advice!

[Cromwell]

Things have been tough but I think I'm starting to make some headway. I have been NC for about 4 or 5 months now.

Hi Astray, well done for the progress. The first 2 months were the most difficult. Within those months, no 2 days were also exactly the same, but a product of changes taking place. Later on new emotions arose and had to be dealt with. But for most people and my own experience here, the beginning of no contact, maintaining it, perhaps breaking out the habit and wanting to really accept that it is actually over, refrain from reaching out, as much as the grieving mixed with the rawness of it being fresh and recent. Very difficult in my experience.

Quite a few people I've talked to in recent months about my ex with suspected BPD have said to me, "Gosh, she sounds like a narcissistic psychopath." So I've been looking into this, reading a lot of articles online and the obligatory YouTube videos etc. And it looks to me like her behaviour fits that of the typical 'covert' narcissist to a tee, as well. Reading people's stories of recovery from narcissistic abuse, what they've been through, it looks the same as my experience. To my mind, my ex's behaviour fits a diagnosis of BPD and NPD equally. As does my experience of trying to recover.

So I'd like to ask people's views on this: what do you think, what does your experience suggest? Is there a significant overlap between these two disorders in your opinion?

I called someone a psycho just the other day, context is what is important here. It was an insult, but it was based on a mix of underlying reasons, part of it involving a complete lack of real world experience of what a psychopath is. Same goes with "narcissist" it is not actually that commonly used in the vernacular, the only place I find it day to day is if you go on these sorts of websites, youtube channels where it stands to reason people have gravitated to because they have had an awful relationship experience and often the word gets used indiscriminately and without sound basis.

Why limit it to BPD and NPD (the latter is rarer most arent able to be diagnosed by the nature of the conditon). There is sociopathy, anti-social personality disorders but then more commonly - there are traits that are significant but dont combine sufficiently to make a diagnosis. Then there are those even wrongly diagnosed by professionals. I never found myself so much playing armchair psychiatrist and diagnosing stuff amateruishly from afar, at least not in the relationship, there was little need to she had been diagnosed BPD, but I still never understood much of it, my own diagnosis I called her a "c", the "worst c" and whilst seemingly crude and not backed up by any scientific literature - there was an important place for it.

it was - my - diagnosis, or accurately, observation based on my feelings, my anger at having been prior abused. It was a form of outlet via verbal expression (psychologists say this is healthy in itself) it was, it was venting. And a lot of these blogs, youtube stuff I put down to the same. Ive done plenty here too.

Id like to conclude this with what your last post talks about change though. Wondering what BPD was, and opening the mind to other disorders - it had its place, apparently, but only to spend time on it to get to the point of acceptance that "does it actually really matter" - at least how much attention was focused on it at the expense of other things - namely - self change as yielding more opportunities for growth and healing.

The theme of what I feel I can call a succesful recovery has been very much to do with finding this balance which is buffering out the extremes of emotion that not only come from within but from outside sources, and trying to make something useful out of it, a synthesis of views, but not getting carried away or led into the realm of what others believe based on their own - very unique - experiences.

The word "BPD" is very wide in scope as a way to categorise people with the disorder and assume a common denominator. Youll find here on this board, there is not even a strict requirement to be discussing a relationship where a diagnosis has even been made. It is like if I talked about "the english premier soccer league" - there are 20 clubs and they fit that criteria - but no-one would ever be able to make claim that Liverpool and Manchester United are one and the same solely based on that. They are in the same league, yet very * very much on so many other aspects.

I was at times too focused on specific nuances and missed the big picture, other times, too generalised to have the importance of unique specifics. All I can say Ashtray that I needed to go through both and a lot of it emotionally led as a route of the healing itself. I feel far better a year on from it having found a way to balance all that multitude of input that needed to be made sense of and self categorised.

That aside, I wish Id also done something non-related, like... "rest". or find more time to do other things, a bit more joy filled experiences. Its fine to talk about "BPD and NPD" - people who are empty and sad, but to neglect ones own self and become trapped to deep in much of the same - it was making me feel closer to my ex in similarity. I did not want to feel that I could share common ground, I wanted to detach - part of that was dealing with my own depression and not blaming her unfairly for creating a "crisis" based on her having that disorder.

SinisterComplex: I agree with here on the pragmatic part - nothing changes until we set out. At the same time, beginnings are important things, it is important to find the healthy, right way. I started with common sense stuff, had 8kg overweight I blamed on the relationship - so I just went to the gym and oxidised it all. Is this unlinked to the emotional side of recovery? nope, Ive changed myself physically which really is not a huge leap away from changing myself mentally: improved my mood - eliminated depression - all of a sudden I wasnt interested in these youtube channels or reading through a self help survivors guide. Not diminishing their importance - but I did it differently and it worked for me. When the argument here is of codependency and some say enmeshment and lack of self individuation - it makes sense that whatever way to heal, it does need to be grounded in the self to actually work.

Ive had tons of guidance, support compassion, suggestions, hints and tips, wider knowledge of other peoples experiences. Some told me she was a vampire and predatory creature, as if I had been the alternative, wounded buffalo at the watering hole, singled out as being the weak. Cool story bro! and I dont say that in a mocking tone - it had its place, I value it as much as the others - I relate to where these feelings originate and get expressed from. but others is not separating as such, individuating. Stay true to yourself is my own advice, there is potential for change - but it doesnt necessarily need to be "radical" or a suggestion any of us are deeply flawed.

If I was to say to you for example "I dont believe you are a codependent because you are not currently in codependent situation"

id be interested in what you might think or feel about that.

I'm definitely a codependent type, with an insecure attachment style, and that's the greatest change I need to make,

^^ if this was true, where is the evidence in todays terms - who are you right now at this moment, codependent on? You have been no contact for 5 months dude! and well done. You are not in a codependent relationship as far as im aware. so shouldnt

"I definitely am" be
 "I definitely was"?

Hope I dont come across as pedantic - but im more of a believer that the way we self report and self describe has by itself a lot of power at possibly making it so - even if it gets squirrelled away into the recess of our subconcious and acted out without even being aware.

[Astray]

Hi Cromwell,

Thanks for this fascinating and thought-provoking post. Lots to chew over there. I don't know if you've read my posts since I started using this site (and I certainly don't expect you to!) but the relationship actually ended around a year ago. I struggled to come to terms with it and stayed in touch on and off for a good while after, which of course did me no good at all, but I was desperate for answers, desperate to understand why she did what she did.

So it was around 5 months ago that I finally realised that I was never going to get those answers, as there are none, there is no reason for her behaviour. I am no stranger to inner turmoil myself but I cannot imagine what her inner world is like. She is constantly hiding from her emotions, her true self is an alien world to her. By this point any contact between us was so toxic, for both of us, there really was no point in continuing. I did and said some things I'm pretty ashamed of, too.

When I started this thread I was really just opening the discussion, speculating. It's of no consequence or import to me now whether she's got BPD, NPD, ASPD, or any combination of them. She's gone, I'll (hopefully) never see or hear from her again. She can't hurt me again. But learning about these conditions has been one of the ingredients that has helped. Including all the survivor blogs and YouTube videos. It's all experience, it all deserves hearing. I'm much more focused now on doing the work on myself to make sure what remains of my life is better. It's made me reflect on the fact that if I'm honest with myself, I've never been in a healthy relationship.

It does piss me off, though, when it's suggested that it was a regular breakup. I've had my heart broken numerous times, I've been in some horrible relationships too, but this is something I've never experienced before. The past year or so has had more in common with recovery from hard drug addiction than any nasty relationship failures I've had. So while there's little point in dwelling on it, it's worth bearing in mind the traumatic nature of what has happened. This has to be acknowledged in order to move on.

With regard to what I said about being co-dependent, this situation has caused me to reflect on past relationships (and the couple of terrible attempts I've made at starting new relationships since) and I can see the common thread, and the reason I attract and am draw to people like her. I'm not in a co-dependent relationship now but I really want to avoid being in that situation again. I don't know if you're familiar with attachment theory (I work in mental health and have had quite a bit of training in this area) but my style is insecure. My default, unconscious state in a relationship is needy. But I'm more aware now, and cagier about starting relationships in general.

So yes, I WAS co-dependent, but I don't plan to be in future!

[SinisterComplex]

Cromwell, I enjoy a good back and forth. Its an interesting thought you bring up. Everyone has to find their own way. There is no one universal way of doing things. I have always said to walk your own path. I'm happy for you and proud of you for doing things your own way. Honestly, whatever it takes for YOU to be happy is what matters. At the end of the day all you can do is take bits and pieces from multiple sources and essentially make it work for you in your own way.

Its a fair point to make about codependency. And to that end...clever way of putting it ;-). In general terms and for the sake of discussion it is possible you could be a codependent, but only when you are in a codependency situation.

I appreciate your views, opinions, and candor.

Cheers!

[dt9000]

DT9000, BPD sufferers in their distorted views of reality believe that there has to be something wrong with you to care about them and/or love them. In essence, they cannot comprehend or deal with the fact that you may be normal and they are not. So to get control they have to see you as defective as well. In your example, it sounds like more of the typical smear campaign that bpd sufferers use.

For all intents and purposes if you were a narcissist you would not be on this board. You wouldn't care one bit. Just being on the board means you are looking for meaning and trying to understand and trying to heal and better yourself. So don't take anything personally in regard to a bpd sufferer. Just understand what you have explained is par for the course. As long as you stick with you know what the truth is and you know what reality is then you will be fine.

Cheers and best wishes!

Thank you for these comments. As much as I say being labeled by her as a narcissist doesn't bother me, I have spent a lot of time reading up on it and wondering if I really am. Your words helped me put things in context.

dt9000