Whether to risk something precious in order to be assertive.

[livednlearned]

Mod note: This discussion continues from the following thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=343378.0

Those are good tactics Gagrl.

I think the piece that gets lost when talking about assertiveness is the extent of the risk involved.

To be assertive means doing something so that I am not sacrificing who I am, what I value, what is important to me.

Even if it means conflict with others, or anyone who has a different view.

Ideally, assertiveness is done skillfully, and is effective.

But sometimes, there is just plain risk.

I believe my person with BPD is very aware what I am not willing to risk, and that makes healthy assertiveness on my part so difficult. For her, she settles into covert/passive aggressive behaviors. She does not assert her self, however she does get something. It isn't healthy because she ends up hurting people who love her, who then want to keep her at arm's length. Then her fears are realized. She feels abandoned.

The existential question for me is whether to risk something precious in order to be assertive.

I did this with my ex husband (BPD). I was willing to risk my son (10 at the time) standing alone outside the door with his dad, looking so dejected and sad, while I ordered my ex to leave. Ex was bullying me outside the door, demanding my son's passport. This was after a psychotic episode that lasted through the night. Assertiveness was: Get in your car and leave.

He did.

And S10 came into the house.

I don't know how to describe what I was willing to risk ... my son's safety? The purpose was to not transact based on a threat even if it meant S10 was at (some) risk.

It was like calling a bluff. Except if my ex was serious, I would lose S10 in that moment. He would be told to get back in the car.

Does this make sense?

Assertiveness is more than tactics. It's knowing what extreme trade-off we're willing to make for a value so that the value cannot be leverage for BPD extreme behavior (caused by a failure to assert).

Assertiveness then (ideally) nips some of the extreme behavior in the bud, at least when it is tied to fears we have.

Talk about no small thing.

It's the reason why assertiveness is so much harder than people suggest.

For a pwBPD I suspect the risk of being assertive is abandonment if not total annihilation, not to mention a complete lack of effectiveness and skillfulness.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[incadove]

Has anyone had success being blunt with a BPD loved one?

it depends, I think.  it can lead to a more real conversation that actually improves things, but it can also be just too much and feel like a betrayal maybe

i think small doses

for myself I worry a little that I have disengaged too much - I'm very focused on my work, projects - I want to make sure I'm offering enough positive engagement, and giving good focused attention when we are in contact, that's something I am going to work on.

[twocrazycats]

The office situation is more complicated. Telling someone who fears abandonment that you won't be available takes some finesse.

I've found that using as few words as possible with my dd works best (in most situations). Also, knowing her fear of abandonment, I would probably also say something that would give her an alternative (office situation or similar). For the office situation: something like, "Just letting you know that I'll be working for X amount of time, and to do it effectively, I can't have any interruptions at all. So if you need (XYZ) during that time you'll need to (alternative, such as text someone else, wait, etc.).

2CC

[GaGrl]

I've been thinking about the difference between assertive and aggressive. I've needed to work with this in corporate training sessions on leadership, so thinking about it outside the workplace is a real shift.

To me, assertive comes from a healthy, inner grounding -- this is what I need, and what I need you to do. There may be more wording around the other person's needs or responsibility. The communication is calm and evenly delivered.

Aggression comes from an unhealthy, inner sense of fear or other heightened emotion. The communication is delivered as tense and terse, with heightened word choice. Body language is tight or physically threatening.I

Thoughts?

[livednlearned]

To me, assertive comes from a healthy, inner grounding -- this is what I need, and what I need you to do. There may be more wording around the other person's needs or responsibility. The communication is calm and evenly delivered.

Aggression comes from an unhealthy, inner sense of fear or other heightened emotion. The communication is delivered as tense and terse, with heightened word choice. Body language is tight or physically threatening.I
Thoughts?

The thing about SD23 is that she is covertly aggressive. Not passive aggressive. Covert. She doesn't necessarily have the tense, terse, heightened word choice or physically threatening body language. That's what my ex was, overtly aggressive. For me, that kind of aggression is straightforward.

SD23 seems to be always fighting for something, often in undetectable ways. I sense it is crucial to her that her true intentions must never be revealed. She is masterfully aware of the vulnerabilities of others.

This is why I feel it's essential that I focus on my own issues with assertiveness, specifically with someone who personifies victimhood but who is hellbent on being dominant.

[GaGrl]

Do you experience the invasion of physical space as her covert aggression?

[kells76]

What outcome of your assertion do you fear?

That SD23 will follow through on a suicide threat?

Curious about the worst case scenario that would happen if/when you are consistently assertive. Maybe I missed something in the thread, but I did not notice a specific fear. Could help to be explicit.

[livednlearned]

Do you experience the invasion of physical space as her covert aggression?

That's a version, yes. Altho I've neutralized a lot of that behavior with me directly.

Like a lot of BPD behaviors, it's the context, the pattern, the circumstances. One-offs make it seem like: What's the problem? I don't know how to convey this stuff concisely so this is another lengthy response 

I remember a member here named Grey Kitty who talked about how his uBPD wife told him that in middle school she would stare at the back of this kid's head in class, and the kid sensed this and resented it. Eventually there was a direct confrontation but GK's wife denied she was doing anything, kept doing it, then it escalated into a physical fight. GK's wife laughed about how she was able to get under this kid's skin just by looking at her.

That's covert aggression.

And that's the category that SD23 falls in. I'm realizing it's a failure to assert herself. She cannot be openly aggressive so she works covertly. It feels confusing because there is no open conflict, meanwhile there is a feeling of being in a one-down position, like some kind of fight just happened and everyone but SD23 is losing. Collectively, the stuff is small potatoes so for the first couple of years I brushed much of it off. Ultimately, I couldn't shake the feeling that I was in a one-down position in my own home, and started to look under the hood to figure out what was happening.

An example of how SD23 works is this

: SD23 was living here. SD25 came to visit. SD25 arranged to spend an afternoon with H so she could talk about career stuff and catch up with him, some one-on-one time. SD25, SD23, and I were in the house together for several hours before that. SD25 talked about going out with her dad to discuss x, how she hasn't had much time to talk to him and knows he'll be good to discuss x with. SD23 said nothing about wanting to go. Then just before SD25 and H go out, SD23 says, "Hey dad, can I come with you?" He says yes.

SD23 knew if she asked her sister earlier, SD25 would say no -- she wanted time alone with him.

SD23 knew that her dad would say yes. She knew that SD25 would start an open conflict if she asked for time alone with H (seeking to solve the conflict, H would say SD23 could go). On top of that, SD25 knew that if SD23 was told no, then SD23 would likely experience a crisis while SD25 and H were out. Lose-lose.

This might not be aggression in other families, but in ours there is extra helpings of conscientious behavior. Our vulnerability is that we follow social norms, are conscientious, polite, agreeable. Somehow this seems to be a weakness that gets exploited.

Similar stuff happens with food. SD23 will not ask me for something directly. She will ask for things when H is around, or will say, "My dad says I can have this." I'm better now that I understand what's happening: "Your dad didn't check with me. This is for tomorrow night's dinner. How about something else." When I become assertive about something, she will change up how she fights for what she wants. It doesn't seem to go away, it just becomes something else.

We had this with parking outside the house. It was hard to get out of our driveway because of where she parked her car so I raised the issue, asked if she could park her car a few car-lengths down the road, in front of open space. She then parks in the driveway. I tell her I can't get out if she parks there, and she plays dumb. "Oh I thought you were out." I ask her to please move, and she parks in the spot that started it all. I ask her to please move to the other spot and she asks H if it's ok that she waits until she's had something to eat. H says ok. I end up looking like the unreasonable one if I insist she does it right away. I'm learning to be creative with her. When the car thing happened, I asked SD23 to leave her keys on the counter in case she forgot, and that way her dad could move the car. H said, "I'm heading to ___ right now so how about just move it."

Instead of this being something simple about cars and parking, it feels like we're fighting for something. It ends up feeling like something personal is happening.

Another example by text, to H: "The teaching assistant is always on her phone and is impatient with one of the students and she was rude to me. She doesn't like me."

H response: "It's hard when we don't get along with our colleagues. That's tough she's on her phone when you wish she wasn't."

SD23: "She's mad because I'm the teacher and she's older than me and doesn't have a  degree like I do and when I ask her to do something she's rude about it."

H response: empathetic emoji. "I'm about to head into a show and will be turning my phone off, and we'll be getting out late. Will catch up with you tomorrow."

SD23, ignoring H's text: "I'm feeling a lot of anxiety and having a hard time breathing, like I could have a panic attack. No one here likes me and I keep getting feedback that I'm bad at my job."

H response: "It's Monday, can be a hard day for lots of people, getting back in the groove. Gotta turn off my phone soon, won't be able to text"

SD23: "I don't know if I can do this anymore."

 

Overt aggression would be: If you think you can stop texting with me just because you have a show to go to, you're wrong. You better stay engaged with me or else.

Covert aggression: I'm a victim of other people, soothe me. Agree with me, triangulate with me, validate me. If you have something else to do I'm going to escalate and hook you through your vulnerabilities.

Passive would be: H trying to call later or text later if that was their plan, and SD23 wouldn't respond so that he would be worried and punished for ignoring her.

Overt and passive don't happen much.

[livednlearned]

What outcome of your assertion do you fear?

That SD23 will follow through on a suicide threat?

Curious about the worst case scenario that would happen if/when you are consistently assertive.

My worst-case scenario/fear is that SD23 would jeopardize my marriage.

Figuring out how SD23's non-assertiveness impacts me and upping my own assertive responses, a lot of it pro-active and an increasing amount of it in-the-moment, is definitely injecting good stuff into our marriage. We communicate better and there is a lot less emotional reactivity and resentment. I paid a high price for being unhealthy. It does seem to take me a lot of learning and experimenting to figure out how best to turn this ship around  

We are likely moving 3000 miles and haven't told SD23. I am anticipating a crisis from SD23 -- she will need to test to see if dad comes running even in the midst of moving. That's fine, I expect it and won't be surprised if it happens. My guess is it will be a psychiatric episode and that could be exactly what's needed, to be candid. But I also want to make sure that my plans are not put on hold or that plan B creates safety issues or tremendous boredom or unnecessary stress for me.

If we are planning to spend 3 weeks driving across state visiting friends and loved ones, maybe I'm a bad person but I will resent postponing the trip, or driving back, or being expected to finish the trip alone. S18 will be at our destination, we'll be driving with our dog, and I do not want to compromise safety or pretend I don't have concerns about S18 being on his own for 3 weeks.

The next task of being assertive is to ask for a plan if any of these scenarios happens. What will H do, and what will I do. We're starting to get there.

I'm working on that stuff with a therapist  

[formflier]

I'm curious if your hubby would be supportive of changing the way you "ask" SD23 to do things (such as parking).

Perhaps something like "SD23, when you visit us this (show location) is your designated parking spot. We thank you in advance for your support."

There is a weird "assumption" that seems to be floating around that SD23's needs/wants trump all else.

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

Or that DD23 must be asked for permission.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[wavewatcher]

I did probably the worst example of overt assertiveness in that after my dd25 threw water in my face the other day I lost it and screamed "Sometimes I hate you!" 20 years of anger came out in the moment. Her aggressiveness has been overt to the extreme; threats, hateful texts, physical violence, etc., and covertly through manipulation and lies.

The next day it was almost like nothing had happened between us.

LNL, you do seem to be in a one-down position. She is your SD, which in her eyes may take away your authority.  Plus, your H seems to be super conciliatory toward not upsetting her, giving her what she wants, etc.  My H has always done this too for the simple reason that he feared losing her love. He grew up with an alcoholic, Bipolar mother and was forever trying to please her.  DD25 triggers that in him.  I, too felt like she was a threat to our marriage because no matter how badly she acted she eventually got a pass and was enabled by him. He did not want to be the bad guy.  I felt totally unsupported.  If DD25 felt H might not give her what she wanted she would go into full manipulation mode- suicidal threats, violence threats, panic attacks, etc. till he backed down. I use past tense because he has finally come around to the reality that she is BPD and enabling her does her and us no good.

"What will H do, and what will I do"

When our DD25 sees that we are on the same page and she can't manipulate H into getting what she wants she may go to extremes to change it but ultimately she accepts it as long as we present a unified front. H and I have set up "what if" scenarios for potential confrontations and make plans to deal with it ahead of time. She has already been hospitalized once, we would not hesitate to do it again.

You are not a bad person, LNL for wanting your own plans to come true. Especially for wanting to be with your S18.

[livednlearned]

SD23 has been here for a day and all things considered, there is progress  

Tiny, little changes  

It's really helped to have y'all weigh in on this, so thank you. My T said I have done a bang-up A-plus job on compassion for and validation of SD23, except that in tiny increments that have steadily built up, this validation-palooza has cost me. So downshifting on validation and upshifting on assertiveness (or what my T considers honesty, and being authentic with myself about what I want and need, even if it's small stuff).

Her thinking is to keep validation skills and use them abundantly, meanwhile, be all about boundaries all the time with SD23 (and H) with few slips. I'm using this visit to reset the relationship in nonverbal ways, with the right tone: this is my house, this is how it's done here. I'll be assuming that if it feels aggressive, it was intended to feel that way, and will work up some of the assertiveness that T and I discussed, and what others here have suggested.

I have some successes yesterday that felt great. They're so small I'm embarrassed to post them here 

H is out with her right now, hiking. He is going to tell her that we're moving.

So things could be different in a few hours in terms of her mood and behaviors.

[PeaceMom]

This is progress, LNL. You also have a solid plan in place. I’m impressed with your purposeful, mindful, thoughtful mindset. Too much of my life w/DD20 is fixing the plane while it’s flying. The only chance I have to step back and regroup is when I’m away on vacation. Please let us know how she handles the news.

[livednlearned]

Please let us know how she handles the news.

It's hard to say ... H broke the news and said it went ok. Then later he was discussing with her his work environment and how he had concerns he would be fired if he stayed, which is part of why we are preemptively moving, and SD23 somehow interpreted that as, "Am I going to get fired from my job, too?"

I mean.  

She has a job she doesn't have to do for the foreseeable future (less contact, less emotional ups and downs) and is still with her BF who she can't see (less contact, less emotional ups and downs) so in some ways things are exactly how they work best for her right now.

And she seems to have very little anxiety and understanding of the gravity of what's happening around her, which has both pros and cons.

[kells76]

I have some successes yesterday that felt great. They're so small I'm embarrassed to post them here

I think that it would be good practice in assertiveness to post them here.

The successes felt great to you. There is room for you to share! 

Or you could be assertive about needing privacy about them.

[livednlearned]

I think that it would be good practice in assertiveness to post them here.

I wish I knew how to be succinct about this  . I'm embarrassed to put detail into what are such small potatoes. But for some reason, whether it's my own stuff with BPD sibling/childhood and BPD marriage/divorce, I seem to struggle with this version of BPD in a family member. I'm able to be assertive when it's with openly aggressive people, at last. This version of difficult personality has me on my heels.

Anyway. Examples:

SD23 is a chronic hugger who is the only person I know who can make hugging feel aggressive. A summer ago H asked her to dial it back and she did the opposite. H put an end to all hugging with her this visit. He hugged/kissed me at one point and SD said, "How come you and LnL get to hug?" H played it off lightly and joked that she can bow to him   When she pressed him about why he can hug me, I said: We sleep together, SD23.

What's new for me in that example is that SD23 tends to wear her dad down and in the past I would say little, especially when it was about an issue between them (that usually made me nuts). This time I could feel the assertiveness in how I said it, and she felt it. H felt it: We get to hug. Period.

My T has been saying, Be assertive without explaining yourself. Kind of this boards version of minimizing the target (of language) for SD23 to pull apart.

Another example: She came into the house without washing her hands. I said, Please wash your hands, SD23.

She said, My dad told me I don't have to.
Me: Go wash your hands, please. I'll feel better knowing you've washed them.

I know that sounds so simple! It's embarrassing.

Another: Going into the pantry and eating whatever is there without asking. She usually does this most after dinner when we've gone to bed and she's alone for the night. I had said to her, with H there: I have some logic to how the pantry is stocked and how long things will last. Check with me before taking anything from the pantry.

That didn't work. The next morning I moved the stool out of the pantry (she had gotten into the way way back where we sometimes stash treats) and I moved things she tends to blow through to an undisclosed location  

Often, when I tell H something I want to assert with SD23, he undermines me. Not in a super offensive way, more by lightening the blow of what I'm saying. And I'm diplomatic so lightening the blow tends to make the issue so watered down that SD23 doesn't take it seriously. After she went into the pantry I brought it up in front of both of them: SD23 if there is something you want to eat after dinner, let me know what it is and I can give the green light or not. H said: You're welcome to have anything to eat, we have plenty of food...

And I said: The amount of food isn't the issue. I'm saying to check with me first.

A few other examples like this one, where H knows how I feel and can't quite tell SD23 himself. Or he does it so gently. She walked into our bedroom behind H and was about to come into our bathroom while I was changing. H turned to SD23 and said, "LnL is changing, I'll be out in a sec." When I came out, I addressed it more directly, this time to SD23, with H there. "I'm not comfortable with you coming into my bedroom." SD23 started to say, "I didn't know you were in there ..." and H interjected, "I asked her to leave when I saw you changing" and I said, "Look, SD23 doesn't come in my bedroom. Full stop. No need for discussion."

This isn't normal for us, with me addressing them directly and calmly like that. I can be assertive with H, and I can be assertive with SD23. But I tended to not assert myself when there was a triangle and I think that's how I created this one-down position. SD23 was using her dad to undermine me. If I am assertive with both of them together, there is less chance I will be undermined.

H went back to work this morning and SD23 hasn't left yet -- she's driving home today. Often when it's the two of us she will ask me if something is wrong, especially whenever I've upped my position in the house. My T has given me some insight into how to handle this so here's hoping I can pull it off  

I realize some of this is easier to put into place because times are upside-down. This helped both me and H make micro changes. Also, I discovered yesterday that SD23 has invited her BF to move back in with her. That means their relationship is stable for now, and she is on extended break. So emotionally, at least in terms of interpersonal things, she seemed relatively regulated.  

I do think something got reset here this visit.

[formflier]

So, after you said what you said about hand washing...she washed her hands..right?

Did you ever follow up with her and Dad about her "not having to?"

I'm not suggesting you "catch her in a lie" but I am suggesting you "clarify important matters".

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

Those examples are very helpful in understanding the dynamics of what is going on with you, H, and SD23.

I think you are doing a terrific job in asserting your needs and wants in front of both of them. That seems to be key in clarifying your position without H watering it down.I

None of what you asserted this week is unreasonable -- and you know that. This is all about SD23's continued "ownership" of her dad, and the way she expresses it. If I were in the position of newish stepmother and were dealing with these behaviors, I would be resentful. DS23, regardless of whether she is conscious of it or not, does not allow you to fully own your home when she is present. She does not recognize your position, your authority, nor does she respect your privacy. She doesn't recognize any reason for her life of her behavior to change as a result of her father marrying you and bringing you into the family and house.

What you continue to assert to her (and to your H) will, over time, establish things with SD23. Perhaps the move and a new house in which she has never lived will help. I believe she has the capacity to get outside herself and understand other persons' needs and demands for privacy and respect. It's as if no one has given her these limits before.

These aren't little things, lnl. For you, they are significant. For SD23, they are critical and necessary lessons!

[livednlearned]

Did you ever follow up with her and Dad about her "not having to?"

She for damn sure washed her hands  

Physically she would have to blow by me to pass the bathroom so unless she was going to be overt, she had to wash hands. So far she seems wary about being overt. I'm sure she felt resentment.

H saw her washing her hands when he came in and said nothing.

Later he made some micro points about hand washing including when/how much and I just said Look, her hygiene is questionable. She washes her hands when she comes in the house.

Her hygiene has been an issue with everyone she's lived with.

DS23, regardless of whether she is conscious of it or not, does not allow you to fully own your home when she is present. She does not recognize your position, your authority, nor does she respect your privacy. She doesn't recognize any reason for her life of her behavior to change as a result of her father marrying you and bringing you into the family and house.

All true. I suspect too that, like her mom, she sees kindness as a weakness.

I feel like I just got something about the drama triangle that didn't quite snap together for me before.

I kept feeling like I was being victimized.
H did not.
He sees SD23 as the victim.
I kept trying to enlist his rescue skills for me and that made no sense to him because I'm a fully functioning, effective person with a lot of social resources. SD23 is not.

I think I learned how to step outside the triangle and say, This is what I want/expect/need.  And neither of them have a real answer for that other than to hear me and listen, because it's not a triangle. They are well trained in the triangle even if H doesn't like it. For SD23, it's how she gets her needs met in most if not all of her relationships.

These aren't little things, lnl. For you, they are significant. For SD23, they are critical and necessary lessons!

Thank you for saying that  

She is going to do so much better in her life if her family (even the one she doesn't want) helps her with boundaries and social skills.

[formflier]

LnL

Thanks for sharing!  Congrats on these victories.  I think these will help others, especially those that think "small" things are worth it.

Looking back over the progress I've made in my life most of it has been incremental. 

Certainly there have been times where a big event or a big dysregulation led to me behaving very differently (forever) about a particular issue.  Those times typically led to lots of unpleasantness for a long time.

Contrast that with incremental changes where someone grumped or pushed a boundary, I didn't "give" and "it" was over..usually within a few hours.

What is the timeline on the move?


Best,

FF

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[livednlearned]

I am the master of incremental change.

We are planning to move this summer.  

[kells76]

This isn't normal for us, with me addressing them directly and calmly like that. I can be assertive with H, and I can be assertive with SD23. But I tended to not assert myself when there was a triangle and I think that's how I created this one-down position. SD23 was using her dad to undermine me. If I am assertive with both of them together, there is less chance I will be undermined.

This seemed pretty meaningful as I read your post. Maybe one of those "little but big" things. Everybody is there and "everybody" expected "everybody" to be in their lane/role. With everybody in the same room, you upended the narrative that "SD23 is unreasonably persecuted by LnL offstage".

It has felt clarifying and like a rush of relief when instead of trying to be accepting and impartial when I hear BS, I just shut it down and move on.

I am the master of incremental change.

challenge accepted

[livednlearned]

With everybody in the same room, you upended the narrative that "SD23 is unreasonably persecuted by LnL offstage".

That's helpful the way you phrased it. I understood the drama triangle in general, but not really in particular, applied to my situation. Or at least, I didn't understand the solution to the problem of the triangle.

I don't think I understood how assertiveness can upend a triangle. I kept trying to negotiate with the people who were (for whatever reason) benefitting from the triangle to stop what they were doing. If pulling levers in the triangle is all SD23 knows then she is not for a minute going to let go of that triangle (feeling like a victim, acting like persecutor). So H won't let go (feeling like a victim, acting like a rescuer).

In other words, I can't solve the problem of the triangle if I stay in the triangle.

And I don't think someone like SD23, who has failed to assert a "self", is going to know how to do things any differently. I really don't think she has capacity to work in assertive ways, not without a lot of skill building from DBT.

When SD23 left, she had a very meek demeanor. H was at work so it was just SD23 and me. Her voice was almost childlike and she seemed unsure what she could and couldn't take, even though we had bags of groceries and other supplies set aside for her on the counter that we went through with her the night before. I think this version of self appears when I am in a one-up position, at least in her mind. For her, people are either one-up or one-down, it seems. Maybe this is a version of who she is with her mom? As she was leaving she asked if it was ok to fill up her water bottle  

When I feel I'm not in charge of the house, SD23 tends to have a more (relatively) entitled demeanor and gets her needs met in these shadowy covert aggressive ways that seem void of boundaries.

She isn't aggressive like my BPD sibling was, or my ex was, so it has taken me a minute to figure out what's happening.

By not being assertive in consistent ways with both H and SD23 I think I was sending the message: who's in charge here?  

And SD23 volunteered.

When I tried to negotiate with H to gain some power back, he just cannot see how I might lose standing in my own home. He sees me being assertive all the time so it makes sense that he wouldn't understand not being that way with SD23. Except his fragilizing, eggshelly approach to SD23 made it challenging for me to get his buy in. The difference now is to be assertive whether or not he's on board.

It has felt clarifying and like a rush of relief when instead of trying to be accepting and impartial when I hear BS, I just shut it down and move on.

Amen. Part of my challenge is that the overreactions I was feeling physically to SD23's presence and how she feels to be around made it hard to be assertive in an effective way. When she's around you'd think my body was preparing for a fight. It was hard to have my tone and body language and facial expression and words and intent all match up and feel natural.

On a separate note, maybe in light of this recent shift, I addressed something directly with H that I've been tiptoeing around. He doesn't think she's bipolar and I agreed. Other family members have said the same thing -- usually some version of, "there is something else going on." Two psychiatrists and one therapist have said this.

This time, I said to H, "Everyone is comfortable saying she does not appear to be bipolar, but no one wants to admit that she has BPD like her mom, least of all SD23."

Denial is pretty deep with H on the BPD stuff, so it's meaningful that he nodded.

Incremental!

[formflier]

What did hubby say in response? 

Is hubby fully onboard with  his ex wife having BPD?

Best,

FF

[wavewatcher]

 

It seems that anybody raised by a BPD mom would develop CoD, manipulative behaviors just to survive. Like growing up with an alcoholic parent you do and become what it takes.

Your modeling of healthy behaviors is what your H and SD23 need. It took a long time for H to acknowledge our baby girl (dd25) could be BPD; it was only after she was officially dx that he accepted it.

Sometimes this is a lonely path; you're doing a great job, LNL.

[wavewatcher]

(Sorry about the "quoting" mistakes; I'm still trying to figure out how to do that)

[formflier]

When you are playing around with the quoting you can use the "preview" button to see what the changes will look like.

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

What did hubby say in response?

He nodded.

Too many paragraphs of saying a version of the same thing is tough for him when strong emotions are involved.

It's meaningful that he nodded, and his demeanor was open, accepting, agreeable.

Is hubby fully onboard with  his ex wife having BPD?

Yes. He also has a sister diagnosed with BPD. We have rather similar family histories  

Four years ago we did some brief couples counseling with my T at the time, and she brought up the likelihood of his ex having BPD, and he agreed -- apparently his ex went to therapy briefly and it was suggested she could have BPD, which brought counseling to a screeching halt.

[formflier]

  He has learned how to coach instead of rescue but like me (with S18) we slip back and forth between the two.

Are you able to be accountability partners for each other? (to stay in the coaching lane)

How would things change if he were able to accept BPD?  Would it even be wise for him to accept it without a formal diagnosis?

Are these other family members diagnosed?


Best,

FF