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Bertha88
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« on: May 19, 2020, 08:35:45 PM »

I'm new to this and have needed it for a long time.  Hearing from others is so helpful.  I've been married to a man that I'm sure is high-functioning BPD for 25 years.  It's been so hard.  To put it succinctly, I'm one of those who believe marriage is for life:  that belief, and fear, are why I have stayed.  He is not even remotely open to looking at himself.  The problems are all outside of him--me, the kids, people at work, etc.  I'm sure this sounds very familiar.  Because I've chosen to stay, it's important to me to get feedback that:  1) I'm not alone; 2) there is hope (IS there?); 3) how I can navigate this emotional minefield and stay healthy myself, while supporting my children and him as best I can (without selling my soul, that is).  Thanks for being here!
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This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

Wynnie

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« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2020, 10:55:07 PM »

Hello Bertha88, You are telling my story.  I have the same beliefs, but my husband of 25 years divorced me 4 years ago, but is still here.  You are not alone!  I am also hoping there is hope.  Right now I am feeling pretty weary and discouraged.  I am just beginning to research BPD, so don't have advice, but am sending a virtual hug.  Hang in there!   Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
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Bertha88
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« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2020, 07:19:05 PM »

Winnie,

I broke into tears reading your post.  I cannot describe how deeply it touches me to hear from someone who is experiencing the same thing as me.  Last night I spent time with our oldest (23) child (son), who -- despite his own substance abuse issues and struggles "finding himself" -- spoke so very wisely to me to get help for myself.  This is pure hell.  At one point I solicited the support of my husband's parents (he thinks they hung the moon; I love them, they are great people, but they also created this monster, at least in part).  They blew me away with their support and we went as far (I'm still incredulous) that we sat down with my BPD husband:  his mom, his dad, and his wife, and we told him we saw things we thought he needed help with.  It was truly a miracle.  Well, guess what's happened since then?  The BPD goes on, sick as ever (later, confessing to his dad that he felt "betrayed" by the whole thing--go figure!  ... as expected); I am sick as ever, putting up with it, "too busy" to take action; and we've all returned to that state of "There's an elephant in the room, but nobody's gonna call it."  I was deeply moved to have my son tell me point-blank that I needed help and that he was tiring of my stories if I wasn't prepared to get help, give my husband an ultimatum, etc.--do something, in short.  So as soon as I read your first line:  "You are telling my story," I broke into tears. 

Thank you, God bless you, this is tough stuff--probably tougher than a lot of other stuff we could be dealing with.  I recently was speaking with our daughter, 21, about this situation, and how it hurts to see other couples so seemingly happy.  She said that she sometimes thinks that the reason I have this situation is because I was better equipped to handle it--maybe those other "perfect" neighbors/friends couldn't have dealt with such a BDP and would have flown the coop.  It's consoling, at least!  So I don't know.  I know I do need help, and my BPD needs help--but it's almost like a 4th job (I have a full time job as a data analyst; a full-time job as a mother and wife; a full-time job as a BPD partner; and now... this, the job of pushing the elephant out of the room!).

Sorry, ranting at this point, but SO GLAD to have found COMRADES on this journey!

Thank you, Winnie!
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Bertha88
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« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2020, 07:29:02 PM »

Wynnie,

With apologies for misspelling your name!  I hope and pray you find some answers/info to help in your situation.  I can relate to a fairly recent discovery of BPD.  To me, it is the "missing piece" I've been searching for.  There is a video I just watched on BPD Central that NAILED IT for me.  (I can "check off all the boxes" -- There was NOTHING in that video I COULDN'T relate to!  I feel slightly arrogant in saying he's BPD, but it's undeniable--I've been living with this for 25 years!)  If you've just recently discovered BPD, I'm with you!  And I support you!  I hope you find something to help you navigate your relationship to healthier waters.

Take care,
Martha
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« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2020, 12:12:48 AM »

hi Bertha88, and Welcome

i remember when i saw that video. it was nearly a decade ago now. i cant describe my feelings in finding a support group that understood what i was going through.

yes, there is hope.

Excerpt
The problems are all outside of him--me, the kids, people at work, etc.

tell us more about what the problems are...from your perspective, and his.
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Bertha88
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« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2020, 05:36:44 PM »

Hello once removed,

You asked me to tell more about the problems from my perspective and his.  I love the question!  I will try to be concise.

From my perspective, he exhibits many of the classic BPD behaviors, such as clinginess, markedly reduced ability to compromise or negotiate disagreements, emotional dysregulation, routine violations of the kids' and my boundaries (e.g., opening others' mail even after being asked repeatedly NOT to; and refusing to knock on the door of a teenager/young adult before entering their room), a myopic view of the world and inability to see through others' eyes--be it the spending of money, choice of activities, participation in high-risk activities, etc.  Concrete examples:  1) I was invited to go on Spring Break with our son, a senior, and other mother-son combos.  Granted, this wasn't ideal in that he was "left out," but he spoke of me "abondoning" him, while the other partners took it in stride. 2) He has called the whole COVID stay-home situation a "hoax," telling me (since I do follow our governor's orders because I think that's being a good citizen):  "You will only do what the governor says you should do."  To me that is an extreme characterization and devaluation of my point-of-view.  3) Our son asked him to stop raising his voice at him, and was accused of "disrespecting" him.  I was livid, so did intervene to say that I thought it was a reasonable request and was promptly flipped off.  Later he apologized, saying:  "When I feel ganged up on [like that], I [do things like that]."  Rather extreme emotional dysregulation, don't you think?  I could give thousands of other examples.  These are just from the past week, and a sample at that!

From his perspective (I heard some of this today):
When we got married I thought we would become one [read:  he would get his way, on his terms].  Instead, we can't agree on anything [right, I don't believe in devaluing children, violating their boundaries, reckless spending, taking excessive risks, etc.]. I feel lonely.  I feel unloved.  Everything I say is wrong.  You and the kids are against me.  I need affirmation.  I want love.  [I paraphrase the following, but I do think they accurately portray his perspective.]  I know the way things SHOULD be.  There is a RIGHT way to do things, if they would just listen to me and follow me.  I am doing things God's way.  [I paraphrase now what I suspect is going on at a really deep level, after reading about BPD.]  I'm really scared they'll leave me.  I'm angry because I am reliving (as if it's happening now) that wounded kid with NO ONE to validate him.

Sorry, I guess I failed on being concise.  Hope this helps.  Thank you for your support.
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« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2020, 06:43:20 AM »


Excerpt
Hope this helps. 

it does. and the more detail, the better. lets walk through some of these.

Excerpt
routine violations of the kids' and my boundaries (e.g., opening others' mail even after being asked repeatedly NOT to; and refusing to knock on the door of a teenager/young adult before entering their room), a myopic view of the world and inability to see through others' eyes--be it the spending of money, choice of activities, participation in high-risk activities, etc.  Concrete examples:  1) I was invited to go on Spring Break with our son, a senior, and other mother-son combos.  Granted, this wasn't ideal in that he was "left out," but he spoke of me "abondoning" him, while the other partners took it in stride.

is this a blended family, or are they his biological children?

my mom doesnt have bpd, but she can be awful at respecting my privacy. i live with her, and i have one hard rule...never knock on my door. if my door is open, theres no need. if its closed, theres no point.

some people just really suck at taking no for an answer, and you have to do what you have to do. you might consider putting a lock on the door, for example. before you do that though, id consider it more broadly...

okay. we all hate to feel left out. i dont have bpd either, but man, its one of my big bugaboos. it can send me into a tailspin.

that sort of thing can be even more pronounced when it comes to bpd traits...the feeling, or sense of everyone getting along without you.

but i find, inevitably, even with the most difficult person, theres something valid underneath the over the top stuff. he may feel, more broadly, that its you and the kids against him, that reinforces preexisting feelings about being left out.

if you read it from his perspective, he really says as much.

Excerpt
You and the kids are against me.  I need affirmation.

you love a highly sensitive and insecure person.

but you also love a person, and share a marriage with a person, where your ideas about parenting, and resolving conflict may differ.

the trick, the hard part, is getting on the same page...less competing, more working together. and i know thats easier said than done.

Excerpt
2) He has called the whole COVID stay-home situation a "hoax," telling me (since I do follow our governor's orders because I think that's being a good citizen):  "You will only do what the governor says you should do."  To me that is an extreme characterization and devaluation of my point-of-view.

this is a political argument that virtually all of us are involved in one way or another.

if it helps (im not sure it does), i happen to be on your side of it. its a polarizing time, and if you married a person on the opposite of the political spectrum, its going to help to disengage and not take the bait. every single holiday that i spend with one side of my family, someone makes a comment about my side of the aisle. of course its obnoxious, and frankly its unfair, because they know where i stand, and if i did speak up, they would go crazy. but i dont. i value family and harmony more than their digs.

Excerpt
3) Our son asked him to stop raising his voice at him, and was accused of "disrespecting" him.  I was livid, so did intervene to say that I thought it was a reasonable request and was promptly flipped off.  Later he apologized, saying:  "When I feel ganged up on [like that], I [do things like that]."  Rather extreme emotional dysregulation, don't you think?  I could give thousands of other examples.  These are just from the past week, and a sample at that!

this really goes back to point number one.

he may feel that you are taking your sons side. he says he feels ganged up on. is that rather extreme? not necessarily. think about it from his perspective. you might flip him off too.

the solution, really, isnt about agreeing with him, or getting him to agree with you, but working, together, to get on the same page, a page where each of you feel you have a say and arent undermining or competing with the other.

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Bertha88
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« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2020, 05:07:36 PM »

Thank you, once removed, for your amazing response.  It fits nicely with what I just read about the Karpman triangle.  I see myself certainly in the Rescuer and Victim roles but probably am a Perpetrator sometimes as well.  One thing that hit me in that reading is the sense of superiority I have--I'm the more stable one, the deeper one, maybe the smarter one (which really isn't true--we are both very intelligent and gifted, but in different domains, and we have a terrible time with that:  I can't cook a meal without him coming in and correcting me, which makes me want to underfunction more--and I tell him that my big sis was The Competent One, so sometimes we underfunctioners need to be cheered on and allowed to "do" for ourselves...  I degress!)

It's just SO HARD living with a person who is so cruel, so messed up, so unpredictable.  I've often said that my dilemma is that the transgressions/hurts come so fast, I can't heal from one before another hits--like a bandaid being ripped off prematurely.  I carry a mountain of resentment.  But yes, he does feel terribly left out.

So I (thinking: solutions) will try to just "be there" nonjudgmentally--I don't mean being codependently supportive as much as just "hanging out."  He's really desperately desiring my attention and affection, and I can't stand him.  Like, he wants to take walks together, but when we do, he just rants about how awful our children are, and it makes me angry!  It's toxic to me--and part of it is I don't agree at all that they are "bad" people; and part of it is that he's pointing out my failures; and part of it is that he's (once again) beating me over the head with his black & white/I'm right/only my way/ thinking--and I CAN'T STAND IT!  (Loved your story about the politics in your family.  I agree with your priorities and way of handling.  His family is SO different politically, and I KNEW THAT when I married him... But it's a real irritant for me.)  I must admit that there is a grain of truth in what he says about our children--and on my better days I can focus on those things and help to put them into action.

I promise to re-read your post and practice being less judgmental of him.  Thanks again.
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Bertha88
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« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2020, 05:12:37 PM »

To answer your question, once removed, these are his biological children.
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« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2020, 04:21:57 AM »

To answer your question, once removed, these are his biological children.

okay. i asked, because blending a family is really, really hard, and often the adults are at odds, and one feels left out. but this sort of thing isnt unique to that. i cant tell you how many times my dad, either jokingly, or out of genuine frustration said "the two of you!" about my mom and me. he didnt have bpd, but he was a pretty sensitive guy.

Excerpt
One thing that hit me in that reading is the sense of superiority I have--I'm the more stable one, the deeper one, maybe the smarter one (which really isn't true--we are both very intelligent and gifted, but in different domains, and we have a terrible time with that:  I can't cook a meal without him coming in and correcting me, which makes me want to underfunction more--and I tell him that my big sis was The Competent One, so sometimes we underfunctioners need to be cheered on and allowed to "do" for ourselves...  I degress!)

the most humbling thing i ever read, in my entire life, was bowens family systems theory: that we mate with our emotional equals.

"emotional equals" has to do with emotional maturity...it means we mate with people on the same level as ourselves. and that has nothing to do with smarts. it has to do with how we deal with adversity and conflict; how we see ourselves (or dont see ourselves) in relation to others. furthermore, it actually doesnt mean we handle everything in the same way as our partners! i dont have the issues with emotional regulation that my ex did, for example.

when i grasped it, it changed my life.

Excerpt
Like, he wants to take walks together, but when we do, he just rants about how awful our children are, and it makes me angry!  It's toxic to me--and part of it is I don't agree at all that they are "bad" people; and part of it is that he's pointing out my failures; and part of it is that he's (once again) beating me over the head with his black & white/I'm right/only my way/ thinking--and I CAN'T STAND IT!

on a sort of cold, not right or wrong, clinical level, you married, and love someone, who has very different ideas and philosophies than you about parenting. improving your marriage is going to mean better understanding, not necessarily agreeing with each other. i mean, ideally, yes, its going to require working together to get on the same page, but that really starts with a "not right or wrong", "no judgment" attitude. and it doesnt sound like hes coming to the table with that either...you may have to be the one that leads.

so when hes on a roll, venting, voicing his strong opinions, he may be overcompensating. he may be expressing his frustrations and feelings of alienation, and he may be trying to pull you to his side.

what is the "best" thing you can do for a person in that position? listen. make them feel heard. make him feel like he has a say, even if you dont agree.

whats the best way to do that?

approach it from a place of genuine curiosity and seeking to understand. because the better you understand him and where hes coming from, even if you disagree, the more you have a hold on how the two of you can reconcile your competing approaches and philosophies, if possible. but if the two of you are strictly competing, thats not possible.

how do you do that? this is a good start: https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy
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Bertha88
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« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2020, 01:06:28 AM »

Wow--you've clearly lived this, once removed!  I don't know how to capture the excerpts you do from this site, but this quote  from your last post resonates:  "so when hes on a roll, venting, voicing his strong opinions, he may be overcompensating. he may be expressing his frustrations and feelings of alienation, and he may be trying to pull you to his side."  He has said as much, that he feels like since I don't adequately place limits on the kids, he feels like he has to; and since I don't demand they contribute to the household, he does all the more loudly; etc.

Yes, I do think we may have been emotional equals upon marrying, at least in the sense that neither of us had/has a very well-defined sense of self or confidence.  My Emotional Intelligence is fairly high (I say, humbly), where his seems quite low in the intimate arena of immediate family.  I mean, how could you not know that a teenager doesn't want to be greeted by you busting in their room with a chore list at 9am on a Saturday morning?... or that, after screaming at your wife in their presence for some innocuous perceived transgression, you then give a sermon about Christian righteousness?... and then wonder why no one "respects" you?

Tonight I was up late doing some stuff for our son's graduation/end of senior year, plus some work stuff.  When I went upstairs, he loudly complained about the "light shining in his face" via the crack in the bathroom door as I was brushing my teeth.  (I'm definitely "Walking on Eggshells!") Earlier, he complained about how I "spoke over" him when discussing a car loan with our 23-year old, when in fact he had interrupted me and I pointed that out to him.  He said he's going to put on his tombstone:  "She killed this country boy."  I'm feeling angry about all of this and also feeling "icky" about what a bad person I am--you know, by his account, I'm awful.  Swimming against this current is exhausting.

I'll read the link you shared, and I thank you once again!
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Bertha88
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« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2020, 01:21:34 AM »

I meant to reply to your comment:  "approach it from a place of genuine curiosity and seeking to understand"

Yes! -- I think you're on to something!  I have had moments where I've consciously just observed him, like watching him mow the lawn from the kitchen window; or contemplating him as a mystery, an entity to be observed...  Ironically, his maternal grandfather (now deceased), by all accounts was a very gentle man, and he taught my young husband as a boy with one word.  "Observe," he would say, as he taught him a farm skill, or how to clean a school floor (he was a farmer and a school custodian, among other things).  My husband speaks reverently of this gentle man who taught him so much.

Thank you for the empathy link.  Powerful stuff which I need.
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« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2020, 01:33:08 AM »

He has said as much, that he feels like since I don't adequately place limits on the kids, he feels like he has to; and since I don't demand they contribute to the household, he does all the more loudly; etc.

bingo. both of you feel like youre competing with the other, and are compensating for the other, with regard to parenting. and dont get me wrong, thats not uncommon or unnatural in the healthiest of relationships. but its a big point of contention in yours.

quite often, our loved ones really do tell us exactly whats bothering them, exactly whats on their mind. sometimes its hard for us to hear...they tend to speak in extremes, or they tend to make what seems like a valid point, followed by an invalid point. if you can learn to listen through all of that, you can usually get whats really bugging them.

Excerpt
When I went upstairs, he loudly complained about the "light shining in his face" via the crack in the bathroom door as I was brushing my teeth. 

this would be a pretty normal marital complaint, except it belongs in the context of the tension between the two of you, and his tendency to be sensitive and kind of a complainer. its important to distinguish between the two, and yet, also, keep that context in mind.

a good response might be something like "sorry honey!".

Excerpt
Earlier, he complained about how I "spoke over" him when discussing a car loan with our 23-year old, when in fact he had interrupted me and I pointed that out to him.  He said he's going to put on his tombstone:  "She killed this country boy."  I'm feeling angry about all of this and also feeling "icky" about what a bad person I am--you know, by his account, I'm awful.  Swimming against this current is exhausting.

i suspect, given the context, he was trying to assert himself, and felt shut out...not to say he didnt interrupt you, but that resolving conflict isnt about who necessarily interrupted or wronged whom first. you mentioned the karpman drama triangle...what ultimately drives the roles in the triangle is the need to be right.

one of the things ive benefited from most, long after my relationship ended, was learning the "fair fighting rules": https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=164901.0
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Bertha88
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« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2020, 01:24:28 PM »

once removed,

You are a gift from God!  Thanks again for the wonderful response.  I will read the article on Fair Fighting.

One thing I am wondering (this may sound very naive):  Where can I find the great therapist/specialist who gets BPD and can speak to my husband?  I know, I'm trying to fix him and so may be crazy--but so wish I had someone I could at least point him toward--and it's not just anybody...  Hard to find someone knowledgeable about BPD.  Or maybe I need to just focus on myself--but the situation feels pretty drastic and some people have said we need to sit down as a family and tell him that he needs help, and, more than that (I think), point him to that help.  Tell me what you think.  I know you'll be honest.
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« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2020, 12:47:59 AM »

i know this might sound kind of pat...

the greatest influence ive ever had on another person is to lead...i dont know if youre a religious person, but its not dissimilar at how i look to leading others to faith. i have to practice what i preach. i have to be a beacon.

psychologically speaking, the healthier you become, the more (positive) pressure there is for him to do the same.

the more you can lead by example, the more you can lead your relationship on a healthier trajectory.

that aside, is he open to any sort of therapy or counseling, individual or couples?
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« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2020, 09:43:17 PM »

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.  I think you're right on.  I do try to be the "emotional leader."  Last night when I was perusing BPDFamily (an absolute Godsend!), I found a couple of helpful related things.  One was a thread on "How To Get A Loved One to Admit They Have BPD."  I think you posted solid advice there also about emotional leadership.

Second, I read the article on this site called "What Does it Take to Be in a Relationship," and its description of a "caretaker" (without the usual negative connotation, just talking about the partner who is choosing to stay and work on the relationship.  That article doesn't mince words on the challenge of being the emotional leader.)  I know all this because I am living it.  The jury is out as to whether I have the emotional constitution to support my BPD and look at myself and try to move this forward.

Yes, I am a person of faith.  These efforts are greatly intertwined.  (That's a whole other story:  my wonderful Christian support group which is completely clueless about BPD, a frustration!)

My BPD is not particularly interested in getting help, at least at this point and as far as I know.  My read on it is that he consistently perceives other people as the problem.  If he sees his role at all, he doesn't trust me well enough to share it.  However, notable exception:  when asked at our support group/Bible study [clueless RE: BDP] last night, "What one thing could you do to bring more peace to your family?"  his response was, "Be more affirming."  Made me smile inside.  Good to hear.  I was asked the same thing and I said, "Probably to be more affirming also, less critical, and less judgmental."  Of course, all bets were off on the way home and I was taken to task for such ludicrous things as kids eating "his" ice cream, etc. -- but as you said, these things he vents about are just the daily incidents that really represent the same sense of being unwanted/violated/ignored/unloved.  So I jot them down (cathartic) and feel this mix of anger and a slight degree of acceptance that this is just what he does.  There is a great story in the AA Big Book that says if you go sit on a park bench and a pigeon craps on you, don't blame the pigeon:  they are only doing what they do!

I continue to be grateful for this site which offers so much solid and grounded help, while recognizing people make different choices about staying or going.  It's refreshing to be treated with respect while choosing to stay.
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« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2020, 12:12:48 AM »

do continue diving into the lessons, the tools, the communication techniques. theres a lot out there, some of it is really awkward to put into practice at first, and id encourage you not only to practice (you can do so with everyone in your life), but to ask questions as youre learning.

youre on the right track...keep digging.
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« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2020, 07:55:56 AM »

Thank you.  There was an incident last night, a very typical scenario in our dynamic.  He expressed (for the 3rd time) that he would like to go visit friends (more his, but mine to a lesser degree), which would take 1/2-day or so, travel time, etc.  I have said, "Let's wait on that," because we are in the middle of some major home improvements and have two graduates this year for whom we are planning a large home party on August 8th.  We both work full-time and I feel overwhelmed, so don't want to relinquish 1/4-1/2 of my weekend to go see these folks--at least not right now.

He replied something like, "You always say 'no' to everything fun with friends... It's all about you and your agenda... The apple doesn't fall far from the tree." [Meaning:  "You're just like your mother."]  So, we arrived home and the neighbors were having a summer garage party (they often do), laughing and having fun.  We usually skip those--speaking for myself, it's that I'm usually not feeling "up" to it, given the constant turmoil we live with--so I'm choosing to "isolate"--I know, unhealthy.  I mention that, because the neighbors' good time presented a stark contrast to our painful dynamic, and I felt SAD.  All this is very familiar:  you could set your watch by his harsh words and treatment when expressing his frustrations, and my reaction, which is the emotional equivalent of shrinking back to my powerless, worthless feelings from childhood.  So I presented an alternative, that I would be willing to go one evening this coming week after work.  He seemed glad to hear that.  Perhaps (guessing here), the matter is closed to him at this point.  Not so for me.

Per usual, I continued to "hurt" all night.  (There was additional discussion around topics which I take on as my personal "failures":  he looked in our son's messy room and said:  "When are you going to make him clean this up?  You're not teaching him any responsibility.  You're not doing him any favors.")  Again, for me, that shrinking, sinking feeling into a familiar gray space of failure, this time in the parental arena.

Still hurting, I stayed in the same room and watched a show with him.  I wanted to share my feelings with him, but was afraid it would come off as:  "You [he] did something wrong AGAIN... and ... I'm not a safe person for you to share your [his] feelings with."  So I continued to hurt, and that makes me WANT to distance myself from him; I mean, who snuggles up with a porcupine?  Although feeling distant, and FEELING GUILTY ABOUT FEELING DISTANT, I GAVE MYSELF PERMISSION to sleep on it.  I prayed.  I asked for help with the specifics of this situation.

This morning, I have a little bit more clarity.  I wrote down on an index card (so I don't forget) that my husband is often frustrated because I often say "no" to plans he proposes because I am "overwhelmed" with life (also frustrating to him); and that he is frustrated because I don't hold the kids accountable.  I realized that part of what hurts me so much in these interactions is that he's twisting the knife in areas where I already know I'm inept/challenged;  these are things I DON'T LIKE ABOUT MYSELF, so it hurts all the more to have them CONSISTENTLY pointed out. To boot, it seems he is more interested in venting his emotions than loving me--the delivery is often very verbally blunt, harsh, even cruel.

But, on to being an emotional leader:
1) He has legit frustrations.  (Parenting, he is often over the top, but is also OVERcompensating for my UNDERfunctioning.)
2) I can't afford to walk around as a Wounded Child over this.  I know these are weaknesses of mine.  I pray for help accepting myself as I am, and for power and strength to make marginal improvements in those areas (aka, "grow").  In my Wounded Child mode, I lose sight of my good qualities and the power I do possess.  It doesn't help anyone for me to stay there.
3) Not holding a grudge:  that's another matter.  We've been married 25 years, and I have a 25-year-old pile of grudges:   he would concur.  So one thing I've found lately is just to let it be:  like, I picture floating a red balloon [my hurts] into the sky.  I've considered the situation, I've tried to identify why I react the way I do, and what I might do to work at the fringes (realistically) of a solution.  Now, it's saying to myself, "You've done your part on this one.  Stay vigilant, but move on.  Today is a new day.  Look for ways to love and show compassion to this highly frustrated person."

Still on the right track?  This forum is really helping me in a way that I've NEVER found in any counseling, because it is so ON TARGET for what I'm dealing with.
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« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2020, 10:57:05 PM »


Still on the right track? 

yeah.

youre really getting it.

that equilibrium between the validity of our partners point of view, where theyre coming from, and the validity of our (your) point of view, where we are coming from. where they compete, and where they meet in the middle. thats invaluable.

your take on emotional leadership is dead on.

its not that either of you are right or wrong (either of you might not be communicating that in the healthiest of ways). its that the dynamic is wrong, hurting the relationship, and the solution is really working to get on the same page.

thats likely going to require some change in communication on your end.

my dad was a little bit like your husband. he was the primary breadwinner (my mom didnt work) and hed come home and hed bitch, and even bully, and all that ever really achieved was pushing my mom to do less, and retreat. if he knew that, really knew that, hed have been shocked and ashamed. i suspect your husband would be too. the answer isnt to shame him. the answer isnt to retreat. and the answer isnt to over compensate to prove your worth. the answer is a bit of a combination of assertiveness and vulnerability.

the more you give of both, more than likely, the more youre likely to get of both. that may not necessarily be the best thing in the short term...any change, light or enormous, can upset a relationship, but it can be, in the long term. what do you think?
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« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2020, 02:12:56 PM »

You said at the end of your post:  "the more you give of both, more than likely, the more you're likely to get of both".  Do you mean assertiveness and vulnerability?  I appreciate your sharing and especially the part about your dad.  Sounds familiar.

Right now I am spitting angry because he "declutters" by disposing of things he knows mean something to me, that I have asked be kept.  There was an incident a few months back where he literally burned up (in a firepit) a piece of furniture that I had been keeping to re-do "someday."  When I confronted him on it, he at first denied any knowledge of it; when I pressed him, he said, "It may have gotten burned up in the fire."  I was livid.

A second, similar, incident has occurred.  We had two kids' BMX bikes which needed to be sold or given away.  I went to great lengths to clean them, photograph them, and post them to a buy/sell website.  They hadn't yet sold, but I had ideas and was in the midst of executing them.  Yesterday they disappeared.  He claims to know nothing, saying they must have been stolen from our garage.  I don't believe him, based on his prior lie, and the fact that they were tucked against a wall and someone would have had to come into our garage and carefully extract them to steal them.  Nothing else missing, of course.

I am way less upset about the bikes being gone than the prospect of dishonesty here.  I was literally sobbing yesterday, feeling incredibly sad that he would do such a thing.  I've confronted him multiple times and he just gets angry and says, "How dare you question my truthfulness?"

I can put up with a lot of BPD stuff, but this is pretty basic.  It scares me when he "acts out" in such a way.  It's very hostile.  Of course, he perceives hostility from me as well, and he reacts to that.  For example, I told him in our adult daughter's presence (purposely--needed a back-up and witness) that when I'm out of town, I don't want my things disposed of.  He said we were "tag-teaming" him, and that our action was "hostile."

Sorry to rant on such a thing, but I'm really down about this.  Where would assertiveness and vulnerability fit here? 
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« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2020, 04:28:14 AM »

You said at the end of your post:  "the more you give of both, more than likely, the more you're likely to get of both".  Do you mean assertiveness and vulnerability? 

if we are talking about emotional leadership, assertiveness and vulnerability are both leadership qualities. a leader knows when to be firm...when to be benevolent...when to be both...a leader is self aware, aware of whats "good for the relationship", a leader has good boundaries.

Excerpt
Right now I am spitting angry because he "declutters" by disposing of things he knows mean something to me, that I have asked be kept. 

there are potential solutions here. what they look like really depend on a lot of things.

you know your husband best...

what do you think is driving the behavior? do you think anything is driving the behavior? is it careless behavior (lousy, but not necessarily deliberate acting out) that he then gets defensive about?

im just trying to get your take on whats going on here. you may be right, you may be wrong, you may be partially either or both, but your centered take on it all is probably the best starting point.
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« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2020, 11:36:49 PM »

I approached my husband multiple times on this topic.  Finally, I accepted the fact that he may legitimately have put those bikes out to the curb and didn't remember it (being under the influence of alcohol--another trend I've noticed, not just the reincarnation of drinking after 17 years of sobriety in AA, but the combination of drinking with a loss of short-term memory [e.g., "Where did I put X?"--when it seems very obvious where X is, etc.])

So yeah, I think his actions are less about taking [BPD] retaliatory actions against me than about trying to control what he can ("She's not handling this, so I have to")... a thought which [once again!] enabled me/us to "soldier on" past this crisis.

Your comments are amazingly insightful and on-target for what I'm dealing with.  Thank you.  I'm willing to stay in the ring and continue to try for a balanced perspective on the events of our lives...

Right now I am visiting my family of origin and he will be joining me in a couple of days--so we'll see how that goes.  Lots of opportunity for me to practice balancing assertiveness and vulnerability and emotional leadership!
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« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2020, 12:17:09 AM »

the combination of drinking with a loss of short-term memory [e.g., "Where did I put X?"--when it seems very obvious where X is, etc.])

So yeah, I think his actions are less about taking [BPD] retaliatory actions against me than about trying to control what he can ("She's not handling this, so I have to")

if this is the case, dealing with it is a lot more straight forward.

if it were me, id visit (or revisit) it in a time of calm, without an accusing tone, but a friendly "what can we do about this that will work for the two of us" approach.

if he really cant help himself, take more drastic measures with the stuff. put a sign on it, put a lock on it, put it in a less accessible place, that sort of thing.
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« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2020, 09:02:02 AM »

Thank you for your measured, calm, instructive response.  The one thing I consistently hear from him is how unloved/lonely/rejected he feels, and he acts out accordingly.  My dilemma is that I have to be very intentional and deliberate to try to view him positively at all.  My go-to feelings are defensive and hateful--after all, he's a demanding and often unkind person, not to mention controlling, irrational, etc. 

We've returned from our trip to visit my family of origin--all the familiar issues for me, so journaling about those, including how his presence is a bit of a drain on me b/c he doesn't care to be there and they don't think all that much of him, etc.

The trip now behind us, I am resolved to try to be present for him at least a bit more than I have been.  No question, that is what he wants.  I feel like I need divine intervention to muster up the "warm fuzzies" for him, if that makes sense.  I do, in fact, ask for that divine intervention on my better days.

I have many of my own issues (neurotic, lacking self-confidence, having poor self-esteem and self-care, etc.).  I know these things play into the whole dynamic, certainly including why we married in the first place--a healthier person would've hit the road a long time ago!  Despite it all, I don't think ending the relationship is best for all involved unless we've really worked hard at what we know we can, and until we've really reached out to our [Higher Powers] and done our very best to improve the marriage.  Thanks again!
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« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2020, 03:53:16 AM »

Excerpt
I know these things play into the whole dynamic, certainly including why we married in the first place--a healthier person would've hit the road a long time ago!  Despite it all, I don't think ending the relationship is best for all involved unless we've really worked hard at what we know we can, and until we've really reached out to our [Higher Powers] and done our very best to improve the marriage. 

you do sound as if the marriage, and he as a person is unpleasant.

question: are you working toward becoming a healthier person in order to hit the road?

in other words, and its a rhetorical question, but also one to ponder out loud: what keeps you in this marriage? what do you like about it/him?
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« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2020, 10:08:32 PM »

Good points/questions.  The second one always stings.  (I've had it before.)  It's kind of wrenching to contemplate.  Since you said it was rhetorical, I won't provide answers here (I have some answers, and some open questions)... but I will ponder it as you suggested.

As far as the first question, always good to be working on myself, though without regular meetings/phonecalls I know my thinking becomes distorted and I function in more of a default mode, not always even aware of how my thinking keeps me bound up.

As far as "hitting the road," I chose this group because I'm not actively planning to end the relationship.  Our kids are nearly grown, and I see it as potentially smoother (fewer triggers) from here on out.  That said, it's easy to feel sorry for myself/sad because I'm choosing to stay with someone who isn't capable of real intimacy, it seems (but then, am I, I wonder?).  Bottom line, I still don't see ending the marriage as an optimal solution--but I will admit, the trade-off for me/both of us? seems enormous.

Many answers as to why I stay (religious vows, sense of duty, not wanting to hurt, fear of failure)... I do hope for a more harmonious relationship, but I don't expect him to change.  I think, perhaps naively, that removing some of the stressors in our lives (e.g., growing kids, with all the trappings--and I'm crazy 'bout the kids, which he knows, and it hurts him, but they are fun, and they give back, and they appreciate me, etc... where he's this demanding, critical, occasionally fun dude who just can't seem to be with me or anyone in the family for more than 5 minutes without rubbing them the wrong way... which brings up another reason why I stay:  he can't help being BPD (if I'm right with my armchair diagnosis).  If he had cancer, would I dump him?  So it's learning to find joy in life while honoring my commitment to him--but also seeing how my own "stuff" contributes to it all, and trying to chip away at that, to make things better.

I do envy people who don't have to do an emotional dance every minute to keep afloat in a relationship.
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« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2020, 02:36:51 AM »

I do envy people who don't have to do an emotional dance every minute to keep afloat in a relationship.

not to diminish the point, but the healthiest, most pleasant of relationships require real work. some of those relationships went through hell before they got better.

Excerpt
I do hope for a more harmonious relationship, but I don't expect him to change.

So it's learning to find joy in life while honoring my commitment to him--but also seeing how my own "stuff" contributes to it all, and trying to chip away at that, to make things better.

i think youre keeping both a realistic, and healthy attitude about all of this. your goals are realistic. your path is smart. i like to think if i were in your position, i would make the same assessment, though frankly im not sure i would have been able to take a critical look at myself as far as relationship improvement.

the good news, and i neither want to overstate nor understate this, is that the more we are able to critically and proactively examine where we arent helping, or are making things worse, our partners tend to follow our lead.

so the question is really: now what? how to put it into practice, and make progress. i would recommend the following:

1. build your support system: i would post more frequently. id be asking questions about the concepts youre learning about (triangulation is one example). i would post to others. i practice the skills i learned here with everyone in my life, but nothing tests my understanding and approach like the situations where i apply them here. sure, im here to help others, but what i gain is enormous. additionally, i would seek out a therapist, if you havent already. its good to bounce the ideas of a professional here, but i wonder if it couldnt also potentially open the door to couples therapy or counseling?

2. id learn the tools on the co-parenting board. they are written for an audience that is divorced or divorcing, but still apply just as well for parents looking to improve their relationship. i love the fair fighting rules.

3. always examine and reexamine your reasons for staying; its part of working on us. i know in my own relationship, i stayed for a mix of healthy reasons, less healthy reasons, practical reasons, etc. every reason is complicated, every decision is personal. but if your reason was, for example, "i cant be alone", the fear of being alone might drive the dynamics of your relationship more than the healthier motivators. working through fears keeps our motivations clear, and keeps us clear on our motivations.
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« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2020, 07:53:55 PM »

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!  Thank you so much for the encouragement.  I would like to know how you clip words on this site (I'm technically challenged, and this site is kind of "odd" though very workable, compared to what I'm used to in my work environment)--so if you don't mind a technical pointer, I'd appreciate knowing how to do that!

 1. "i practice the skills i learned here"...  I once was hurt deeply when a friend in recovery (one of my many stints) said, "You're the type who could go to a meeting every night of the week and never change."  Ouch!... So, I was thinking last night, do I want to work on this?  Or just complain and feel sorry for myself and "make my case" for how hard this is?  And I really see now that if I don't want to work on it, it will likely never get better.  Life is too precious to squander such an opportunity, yet of course I need always be mindful of the "cost" of such an endeavor.  So--my point is, yes, I have to be willing to practice the skills I learn here, as you said.

2. "I would seek out a therapist."  Yes, been thinking about that.  Trouble is, I have no clue how to find the right one.  I feel like I'd want someone who "gets" BPD, and recently I had this epiphany that I could do virtual therapy (thank you, quarantine)--meaning, it wouldn't matter what the geographical distance is, if I can find someone who is experienced with BPD and would work with me.  Yeah, I don't think I have BPD, but I don't want a counselor who tells me I need better communication skills if they don't have an understanding of the particular difficulties of communicating with someone who has BPD--in my case, someone who sees the world as very black & white, "right" and "wrong" (his definitions), uses shame as a tool to evoke desired behaviors, etc...  Having said this about a therapist, THIS SITE (you, particularly, but also other posts) have been the best, most pointed help I have ever found.  I suppose you might say it's not a substitute for focused therapy on myself?

3. "open the door to couples therapy"--I'm skeptical.  Couples therapy in the past has been a counselor desperately trying to be impartial, with no knowledge of BPD--so it's always kind of, "Well, he/she wouldn't do this perhaps if you [ blah, blah ]..."   We came closest to good couples therapy from our Bible study leaders (a married couple), who really were impartial and nailed our issues, except unfortunately were skeptical of mental illness and wanted to couch everything in spiritual terms--which is OK, except for me, where the rubber hits the road in the day-to-day trials with BPD, ends up FALLING SHORT...  I was reading a book I love called "The Secret of Staying in Love" by John Powell,S.D., last night and he had a dialogue exercise at the back which was basically an inventory of feelings to take individually and then discuss.  That COULD be productive for us, and I would go there immediately, but my BPDh probably would rather I take walks with him around the neighborhood for a week (in which he recounts how horrible our kids are, etc.--whew!) than dive into an exercise like that.  In other words, I probably need to focus on more practical ways to "show up" for him (effort) rather than introduce some new, deep technique for sharing, which WOULD be a pathway to intimacy for me.

4. " id learn the tools on the co-parenting board" - great suggestion.  I often see us as "beyond hope" in that department - we are culturally almost polar opposites, he strict to a fault, me permissive to a fault... but both so entrenched in our ways, and thinking we are right...  But hey, it's well worth a try!  And over the years I have mellowed to the point that I can see his frustrations, and I see how I choose sometimes to let things go as a parent because it's more convenient.  Of course I could share a litany of his faults as a parent, but he does love the kids:  that's the one common denominator.

5. "working through fears keeps our motivations clear" - Yes, indeed, in the past (e.g., as a stay-at-home mom with 3 small children!) I was motivated in part by the fear of being alone... Not so much at this point in this relationship, though.  I do fear the devastation/emotional carnage which a breakup would cause [for many people]... but as far as living on my own and making it, I'm pretty sure I would be fine, and that my life would be more peaceful without him... but then I remember the words, "Wherever I go, there I am..."  so, when I think about life without him, yeah, it would be great to have a reprieve from his borderLION behaviors, but there is also a host of negatives associated with that decision, and, in the end, I'm not sure I would know where/how to productively channel my energies... This would fall under the category of an open question, one that might become clearer by working the tools.  I mean, a well-lived life of purpose MIGHT be just doing what I'm doing, trying to be faithful and loving; or it might look like something else, and I honestly don't know for sure:  but for now, I'm staying put and working on it.  Thanks again.
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« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2020, 04:41:34 AM »

the excerpt button works like this:

hit the button.

it will utilize the entire post between the brackets. delete the parts except the part you are directly responding to. if youre just responding to a person, the  Bullet: contents of text or email (click to insert in post) button will suffice. keep your responses outside of those brackets.

Excerpt
2. "I would seek out a therapist."  Yes, been thinking about that.  Trouble is, I have no clue how to find the right one.  I feel like I'd want someone who "gets" BPD, and recently I had this epiphany that I could do virtual therapy (thank you, quarantine)--meaning, it wouldn't matter what the geographical distance is, if I can find someone who is experienced with BPD and would work with me.  Yeah, I don't think I have BPD, but I don't want a counselor who tells me I need better communication skills if they don't have an understanding of the particular difficulties of communicating with someone who has BPD--in my case, someone who sees the world as very black & white, "right" and "wrong" (his definitions), uses shame as a tool to evoke desired behaviors, etc...  Having said this about a therapist, THIS SITE (you, particularly, but also other posts) have been the best, most pointed help I have ever found.  I suppose you might say it's not a substitute for focused therapy on myself?

psychology today has a feature that will help you search for a therapist.

my personal advice is that its less about bpd experience and more about what youre looking for, specifically. for example, a CBT therapist is going to be very different than a psychotherapist. are you looking for someone to help you within your marriage, or to help you with you personally, or both? a good therapist who is addressing your marriage will, inevitably tell you that communication is key, and that your style likely needs some adjusting. thats true for any marriage, regardless of BPD. BPD is unique in that people with BPD traits tend to require more validation than the average person, and invalidation goes a lot further (in a negative sense) with someone with BPD traits than the average person; its important to know. but heres the thing. a lot of therapists have some level of experience with BPD listed on their credentials...dealing with personality disorders is kind of a hot commodity. many will just endlessly validate you, triangulate with you, and give you advice that is toxic to improve your relationship. i have never seen a therapist myself, but the number one thing i would look for is a good sense of the spectrum of human nature.
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« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2021, 07:53:08 PM »

What to do?... BPD hubby gave away an antique dresser that I loved while I was out of town visiting my aged parents, despite my pleas before I left to "leave my stuff alone while I'm gone."  (He goes on cleaning sprees sporadically and doesn't consider others in the process.)

The dresser was one of two pieces of furniture he wanted out of our house.  I was slowly moving that way--I have issues with keeping stuff (honestly, some hoarding tendencies when it comes to things that "mean" something to me), but I'm working hard at shedding things (albeit slowly and ritualistically--like, "I need to watch this movie before I get rid of it"--that kind of thing).

So he takes matters into his own hands when I'm gone, and then lies about what happened.

Re-reading my previous (newbie) thread called "Just Need Support," I realized this is the 3rd such incident.  There was the coffee table with a recessed, glass-covered top that I was going to "some day, when I have time" put a mosaic in:  that one was literally burned in the firepit when I was gone.  He lied about its fate until I pressed HARD, and then said:  "It may have been burned up in the fire."  I was livid.  I had hopes and dreams attached to that.  It had a story.  My artsy side, suppressed for years by the demands of F/T work and raising 3 kids + dealing with him, waited in the wings.  But, alas, he took it from me--at least, the table.

Next, there were the kids' BMX bikes they had outgrown.  Again, I had a ritualistic approach to getting rid of them.  I washed them, photographed them, and was preparing to post them on my workplace employee "wanted" website.  And then, suddenly, they were gone.  That mystery was never solved.  He claimed they had been stolen out of our garage.  To this day, I think he lied.  In that instance, too, he was well aware that I had a plan underway for disposing of them--one that I could live with, that helped me navigate the pain of letting go.

And now this incident with the dresser, plus paper "piles" removed from my side of the closet in our bedroom (which I retrieved from the recycling bin at the curb).  Articles I had clipped; score reports from kids' national achievement tests that I would put into their scrapbooks; etc.  He also went into our kids' rooms and rifled things around while "putting away laundry" (but really snooping and controlling the contents/blind settings/etc.).  This guy has a history of opening mail NOT addressed to him (a federal offense).  He's getting the message VERY SLOWLY on that one, after being told repeatedly by me and our adult children to STOP IT.

As I write this, I am struck by how much he wants a clean, clear house:  so much so, that he's willing to sacrifice my trust and happiness toward that end.

Thus, the post.  I'm livid.  I feel trespassed upon.  I feel completely devalued.  He couldn't possibly care a whit for my feelings and dreams--indeed, "ME"--and do such things.  I've made it so clear what I want.  It hurts.

To me, when we marry someone, we know they are going to annoy us, maybe very significantly, maybe often.  We know we are signing up for a good bit of tolerance, but hopefully can endure in service of the more lofty goal of sharing life and allowing someone the dignity of being who they are.  That's why I'm so upset.  My BPD doesn't value me.

I'm just angry and need to decompress.  Wondering if others have such issues with boundaries/respect they'd be willing to share.  Just for fun, I may start looking at apartments to rent.  Or I may rent a storage unit to protect my stuff.  Or establish my own bank account.  I need to take stock of my situation and think of my options and ways I can take care of myself, given his selfish and unpredictable behavior.  Did I mention he bought a brand new snowmobile (expensive toy, his hobby; not mine) that I had said "not now" to before I left?  Yeah, that too was part of my welcome home.  MUCH more fun to hang out with my octogenerian parents!
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