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Author Topic: I'm back again with a different relationship  (Read 468 times)
Learning_curve74
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« on: May 25, 2020, 06:54:36 AM »

Hi I used to be here for support for a relationship with an old gf I'll call F. She was diagnosed BPD as well as bipolar by a professional. I broke up with her once for cheating, but we got back together once and she eventually broke up with me. We were together around 3 years.

I'm very grateful for the relationship I had with F because it spurred a huge amount of self discovery and personal growth for me. In retrospect the relationship itself wasn't meant to be though we had many good times (and many horrible times too LOL). I guess you could say our wounds were complementary, so that's why we meshed. I fully own my part in it because I realize that I chose her due to my own personal issues (high need to feel loved, to not feel alone, codependent tendencies, anxious attachment style) even though she didn't at all come close to fulfilling my true desires and values for a life partner (life values, lifestyle compatibility, sexual compatibility, intimacy, feeling safe and loved).

I ran into F a few years later with her new bf. We shared a hug and a bit of conversation. It was really good to be honest. I hope she is in a better place mentally and emotionally than we were years back when we were together. Her bf seemed nice to me. I had zero regrets about how things turned out and only the usual curiosity about her life now that one would have about an old friend that you aren't close to and don't keep in touch with.

Ok so that's my background... Next post is about my current situation.
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Learning_curve74
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« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2020, 07:58:30 AM »

Today I'm back on the message board because of my current situation. The other day my gf of 8 months just broke up with me suddenly out of the blue without warning (that I could see). I want to reconcile if possible, and I am still dealing with the emotional pain of the sudden break up.

My gf, who I'll refer to as S, told me she is a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. She only told me a little about it now and then over months: first that she's a trauma survivor, then that she's a child abuse survivor, then that she's a child sexual abuse survivor (family member was the abuser). To be honest, I actually wasn't shocked but only saddened that this spunky woman that I'd totally fallen for had suffered horribly in life. In certain times she's told me that she had a crappy life. I guess the good old rescuing codependent tendencies me told her we're building a better life together now. Now I wonder if I did enough listening and validating.

I know S had worked with a therapist in the past, and then she told me she was working with her therapist again recently but I can't remember how long ago. I told her that I thought that was great and was supportive saying everybody can use some help in figuring things out.

We are both around 50 years old and she has two children and a ex-husband whereas I have no children and never been married. I fell so hard for her so quickly, it was like old patterns for me. And it really seemed like she felt the same for me. It seems one of her "love languages" is gift giving, as she bought me some cute gifts on a very early date. She even gave me a little gift the day before we broke up.

I was the first person to say "I love you" about 4 or 5 weeks into dating. I told her I'd thought about it and that it wasn't the same as when you know somebody deeply and have had many shared life experiences, but we had spent so much time together, talking until it was 5 am sometimes, that it felt like it we'd known each other longer. To me we had our little seed of love, and we just needed to keep watering and feeding it together for it to grow and blossom fully. She said that she couldn't say the words to me because something bad always happens with the person she says it to. I told her I understood and that I told her "I love you" because that was my choice knowing she didn't necessarily reciprocate. I was over the moon when she told me "I love you" later that week.

Everything seemed to be great between us, fully lovey dovey. While we each have our own homes, I ended up staying overnight usually half the week. It wasn't anything we discussed, basically she pulled me to bed one night and we kept doing it. She bought me a toothbrush! I felt totally crazy in love.

We did some traveling and kept busy yet still had time to have our long conversations. We never had fights or disagreements which in retrospect might seem like a red flag now. S would tell me she doesn't stand up for herself. I know she's gotten upset or mad about how her friends or coworkers treated her and she'd vent to me but otherwise hold it in choosing to not express it or be passive aggressive towards the other person. Now that I'm examining things, it's very possible she's been building up the resentments against me and held back so I never saw it. We are both people pleasers, so low outward conflict style but inside we can be resentful or angry.

Since the coronavirus pandemic began S has been worried. She was especially worried for her son that lives in a virus hotspot. She is a very sensitive and anxious person, which is understandable considering she is a trauma survivor. I'm usually calm as I've learned I only have control of my own actions usually and outcomes aren't guaranteed. I told her yes it's possibly dangerous for her son but the likelihood her son gets sick isn't that high, and then the likelihood of him dying is even much lower. Maybe I should've spent more time asking and listening, I don't know... I always tried to ask more questions, ask how she felt but maybe, maybe... That's my self doubt there in the face of this break up.

I think it was around the time of the pandemic shelter in place order locally that we did have one conflict that now seems to be a sign that things were changing. We were in bed and I was caressing her breasts and buttocks, telling her the things I usually did when trying to initiate sex. She playfully pushed my hands away saying we needed to wake up early. I caressed her again and told her she was sexy, she called me silly and pushed my hands away again. So I stopped, gave her a kiss and told her I loved her and she said it right back to me.

A couple of days later her mood seemed like she was very upset with something so I asked her what the problem was, and she told me that other night in bed when I was caressing her that she didn't feel safe. I was dumbstruck, this hadn't been a problem before, we'd never had a discussion like this about sex, and maybe we should have. Usually one of us would initiate and the other would either reciprocate or gently turn it away from sexual to cuddling. To be honest, I was surprised how open she was to sex considering her trauma as a child sexual abuse survivor. We didn't have it a lot as I believe our libidos are a bit lower in our 50s, maybe once a week or every other week, but we both enjoyed it without regrets as far as I could tell.

After that episode, I was too afraid I bring it up again, and I also didn't try to initiate, so we didn't have sex for about a month and a half. We have all been stressed by the pandemic, so I didn't bring it up, but maybe I was a coward and too afraid to upset her. We were still enjoying our lives together as best we could.

More on the next post...
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Learning_curve74
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« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2020, 09:12:16 AM »

In retrospect that change in sex life was probably a sign of issues that I was afraid to confront.

Around the same time, she started spending some more time with other friends. Some mutual friends and reconnecting with an old friend. I encouraged her to spend time with them because I believe we all need to have our own fulfilling lives outside of our romantic partner. I'm afraid this might out me or identify me but I always told her the I only ever wanted to add to her life and never to subtract from it. That I want her to feel loved and cared for and never abused or hurt. So part of that is to give her space and time to enjoy her friends.

We had spent so much time together that for a while we were like peas in a pod but maybe once the pandemic happened it seemed like too much? She would go socially distance with her girlfriends on walks or women's wine time, and I was perfectly fine as I have my own life and things to do when we were apart.

The day she broke up with me, the night before she said she preferred not to stay over which was fine because I knew she had some plans to get started on work stuff semi-early and work all day until done. We got together in the early morning and chatted, she told me a friend had passed, and I commiserated. She seemed distant and not her usual self. The energy between us was very different than usual, I felt an unease. When I was leaving, I told her I was sorry about her friend, kissed her, and told her "I love you" but she didn't say it back which was a little upsetting but I thought understandable in the circumstances?

Then maybe thirty minutes she texted me that she felt we were on different pages and should take a break. I was confused and panicky. Just the night before she was kissing and telling me "I love you" and the all of a sudden it felt like she dropped a bomb on me out of nowhere. I wanted to talk but she said she didn't want to and couldn't because she was emotionally unavailable and had to be alone. I told her ok let's discuss it when she could.

That night she emailed me a break up letter. She said I was sweet and that she enjoyed the time we had together. However she said she felt lost and needed time to find herself. She said she thought I needed somebody to be with 100% of the time but she can't be with anybody 100% of the time. So we should part ways as friends. I was devastated. S was my best friend and I thought we were going to be each other's "happily ever after". We never had fights or disagreements (which itself might be a red flag), at least only now in retrospect I can see the issue that came up with sex may have been a turning point?

Due to my issues, romantic relationships are my Achilles heel. When in the honeymoon phase and even after we'd settled in some, everything seemed to be fine, I felt secure and loved. However when S said she wanted a break my body went into survival fight or flight mode: my anxiety and panic levels were extreme. I had physical pain like my chest was being crushed and I could barely breathe. I went over to try and talk her out of it or at least get an explanation of what I did wrong but she got distant and angry and wouldn't talk about any specifics other than she needs to be alone. She was so different than what I was used to.

I sent her pictures of happy times together and my feelings expressing how I still love and care for get. I asked if she could explain what I did wrong and if she might still be interested in reconciling after a break. She responded and accused me of stalking her (because I sent her long texts, just look at my posts LOL) which I was shocked about. But I guess that's what it feels like to her, which is understandable due to her trauma. She did say if we went no contact for 6 months then maybe we'll see about trying to get together again. I told her sure, I still care for her, so goodbye for now and "I love you" (which has always been my words goodbye to her).

My counselor's theory is that she has been stressed by the panic and was triggered by her friend's passing and shut down emotionally, and that me being pushed away was just collateral damage from being in the blast zone. He said that she was not necessarily saying go away forever because she said six months. He suggested I let her know that I was in an emotionally heightened state when I agreed no contact, so I couldn't keep my promise because I wanted to apologize and let her know I was sorry I couldn't understand at the time she needed space. That I would continue to send her some encouragement now and then but that I didn't mean to impose and that she didn't need to reply.

It was only after an emergency counseling session I realized S's way of dealing emotionally by shutting down didn't mesh with my panicking emotional response trying to fix things. Her instinct as a survivor is to cocoon and numb herself. My instinct as somebody with insecure anxious attachment is to require more connection and validation.
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Learning_curve74
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« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2020, 11:14:50 AM »

I'm really struggling because emotionally I feel like I've lost everything. It's crushing grief almost as if S had just suddenly passed away.

Intellectually I know I was alone before and had a good life then, so no matter what happens between S and me, I'll recover and be okay alone. However, right now the grief and pain feels too much. I've felt suicidal because then at least the pain would stop. It's just temporary thoughts that come and go in my pain, I don't feel as if I'm in danger of self harm right now.

Because of the pandemic, it's difficult to lean on friends for support, I'm afraid to impose on them for in person discussion. And I know most people won't be comfortable up close and giving hugs. I was basically 100% reliant on S as my only human contact during these trying times.

I feel like sending S a note of encouragement now and then (maybe once every few weeks or every month) is in line with my values. She is struggling and that's the least I'd do for any friend who is in the same predicament. I do worry some about whether it will hurt the chances of reconciling and trying to get back together. Part of me feels like if she withdraws further away from me as a result, then maybe she just can't be the partner I want to grow old and happy with then.
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« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2020, 06:42:22 PM »

Hi Learning_curve.  Welcome back though I am sorry for the circumstances.

How are you doing today? Still okay in terms of not self-harming?  Just checking on you.  You have lost a lot and I am sorry for that and the pain you are feeling.  You are right though; you will get through this and you will be okay.  In the meantime though, it is good you reached out to us.  We've got ya.

Excerpt
I feel like sending S a note of encouragement now and then (maybe once every few weeks or every month) is in line with my values. She is struggling and that's the least I'd do for any friend who is in the same predicament. I do worry some about whether it will hurt the chances of reconciling and trying to get back together. Part of me feels like if she withdraws further away from me as a result, then maybe she just can't be the partner I want to grow old and happy with then.
I don't think reaching out very once in a while is a bad thing as long as you are tuned into her response to you yet don't read too much into it.  When someone says they want space, give it to them. 

Excerpt
My counselor's theory is that she has been stressed by the panic and was triggered by her friend's passing and shut down emotionally, and that me being pushed away was just collateral damage from being in the blast zone. He said that she was not necessarily saying go away forever because she said six months. He suggested I let her know that I was in an emotionally heightened state when I agreed no contact, so I couldn't keep my promise because I wanted to apologize and let her know I was sorry I couldn't understand at the time she needed space. That I would continue to send her some encouragement now and then but that I didn't mean to impose and that she didn't need to reply.
Did you contact her?

Excerpt
It was only after an emergency counseling session I realized S's way of dealing emotionally by shutting down didn't mesh with my panicking emotional response trying to fix things. Her instinct as a survivor is to cocoon and numb herself. My instinct as somebody with insecure anxious attachment is to require more connection and validation.
This is a pretty big realization.  I am like you and struggle a lot when people go quiet all of a sudden.  My ex was like S.  It is a huge incompatibility to try to work through.  Silence, being ignored.  Ugh.  As you have had time to think about this realization, is this something you want to try to work through in therapy?
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Learning_curve74
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« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2020, 01:21:25 AM »

How are you doing today? Still okay in terms of not self-harming?  Just checking on you.  You have lost a lot and I am sorry for that and the pain you are feeling. 

Thanks for your kind reply Harri. Honestly, at least once a day the emotional pain is so much that I feel that death would be a relief. But I always catch myself and think, hey I was okay before I was with S, and my relationship with F was a blessing in disguise, so then I'll be even healthier after this! Sometimes I beat myself up that it's taken me five decades to get to this point in my self-discovery, but I guess the lessons only count when they actually sink in.


I don't think reaching out very once in a while is a bad thing as long as you are tuned into her response to you yet don't read too much into it.  When someone says they want space, give it to them. 
Did you contact her?

Yes, I sent S a short note that I understood she needed space to find herself. And that once she did if she needed a friend she knows how to find me. She replied by email that I need to let her go, that there's nothing I need to say, and that we won't be friends. Then she added that she was unhappy about an item she thought I should've returned to her (although we considered it ours and has always been at my house, not hers). It felt like a very cold and almost angry reply, and since I'm too emotionally close to it, I showed it to a friend of mine that knows S and she said "whoa that's very aggressive, w t f, she seems to be snapping".

I'm a bit torn because her breakup email was generally pleasant "I'm sorry it's not you, it's me, you are sweet, I enjoyed our time, but I can't be with you 100% of the time and that's what you want, let's be friends"... But as soon as I tried to discuss it with her in person she just became angry. The more I say, the colder and/or angrier she seems to get.

I'm actually a little concerned now because I've seen her blow up in anger once and her reaction seemed way out of proportion to the inconvenience she was suffering. I know the incident (not involving me) was something that had happened multiple times and was frustrating her. I know that she was arrested in a dispute with her ex husband a few years back. I haven't answered her complaint about the item she wants because I'm not interested in any additional drama. I am a bit afraid that she might still have my house key and try to take the item she wants. It's also funny to me that she seems to want no contact but sounds like she's trying to bait me into talking about this item with her or at least giving it to her.


This is a pretty big realization.  I am like you and struggle a lot when people go quiet all of a sudden.  My ex was like S.  It is a huge incompatibility to try to work through.  Silence, being ignored.  Ugh.  As you have had time to think about this realization, is this something you want to try to work through in therapy?

I'm not sure. S never became quietet or less loving (other than the lack of sex the last almost two months) to me before she dumped me as far as I could tell. That's why it hit so hard for me: I didn't expect the breakup at all, just got blindsided. She just flipped like a light by I feel like my issue right now is trying for this to not feel like a matter of life and death. I do wish I could understand her more fully as I could then take it less personally and blame myself less.

I'm very exhausted and can't seem to do any self care.
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« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2020, 06:08:51 AM »

boy, can i relate.

im of the belief that relationships rarely, if ever end suddenly. even though, at the time, i felt like every last one of mine did  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)

youve been through the process, and you know these things are usually easier to see in hindsight, and when we are more detached.

and part of that process is examining key moments...what seem like little or big breaking points. but quite often, those are still only part of the bigger picture.

LC, what i read in these exchanges is that she feels that you are over pursuing. i say that as a classic over pursuer. i also say it as someone, when ive felt over pursued, shut down, and turned cold, as had been done to me.

and still, i suspect, thats only part of the bigger picture.

i mention it for two reasons:

1. if you want her back (youre on the Bettering/Reversing a breakup board), i would not pursue this further. i rarely speak in unequivocal terms, but i suspect any hope depends on her reaching out, and any reaching out you do, no matter how careful, will be thrown in your face.

2. it sounds like you think some of the old familiar baggage resurfaced here, and i think thats probably true for most of us; it was for me. if you want to get back together, you will need to face that...you will need a very different game plan.



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Learning_curve74
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« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2020, 11:48:08 AM »

Hi o.r., thank you for your insights, I really appreciate it because I'm feeling so wounded right now, it's difficult to think clearly. I'm cycling back and forth between the bargaining, depression, and acceptance stages of grief and loss.

I keep beating myself up/bargaining with thoughts like if only I had realized she had fears of abandonment, if only I had realized how turbulent all her interpersonal relationships were, if only I had seen how she idealized me and our relationship, if only I had seen this sign or that sign, if only, if only... Then the crying and depression sets in. Then there are times that I realize her issues are extremely serious and difficult. I was scared of her anger and frustration the one time it came out, things weren't necessarily perfect, she is deeply sensitive so she bottles things up which isn't always healthy with regards to her relationships.


LC, what i read in these exchanges is that she feels that you are over pursuing. i say that as a classic over pursuer. i also say it as someone, when ive felt over pursued, shut down, and turned cold, as had been done to me.

and still, i suspect, thats only part of the bigger picture.

i mention it for two reasons:

1. if you want her back (youre on the Bettering/Reversing a breakup board), i would not pursue this further. i rarely speak in unequivocal terms, but i suspect any hope depends on her reaching out, and any reaching out you do, no matter how careful, will be thrown in your face.

2. it sounds like you think some of the old familiar baggage resurfaced here, and i think thats probably true for most of us; it was for me. if you want to get back together, you will need to face that...you will need a very different game plan.

Seeing you spell this out is a gut check. I don't know if my (ex?)gf has BPD, bipolar, complex PTSD, or all three, but I know in hindsight that she has a lot of borderline traits and survival strategies.

When she pushed me away I definitely panicked. I felt so secure in our relationship, I've never felt this safe and secure in my past romantic relationships. I know one of my issues is that I had one parent that was deeply invalidating, unable to give the unconditional love I needed as a child. So romantic relationships feel like a matter of life and death to me, I feel like I have to work hard to earn my partner's love in return. But this relationship was easy and totally low conflict, though in retrospect I know it's not totally healthy to never have conflicts out in the open.

I know now there were some hints of issues within her mind, but it never rose to the same level of dysfunction that I had experienced in my previous relationship with F, an exgf who was professionally diagnosed BPD.

It's really, REALLY hard for me to just be still with respect to the current deep freeze or end (?) of this current relationship with S. I want to re-connect so badly, to let her know I understand her wounds. But from what you say, o.r. that is likely to drive her further away from me.

I had a session with my counselor yesterday and by the end it sounded like he was of the same opinion that there's nothing I can do except work on myself. He thought as a childhood trauma survivor S might've simply been triggered and that once her emotional shutdown passed, my gentle reminder that "hey I know you need space, I won't crowd you, and I'll just be walking over here" might get her to re-engage. Not much luck except for coldness and anger from S in reply (tho that is still a reply). Maybe the damage was done already when I was frantic about trying to get concrete explanations immediately post breakup.

S has sent me a few messages saying it was not right of me to keep a particular item we got together and that she demands that I return it to her or pay her for it. It was in some pictures I posted on social media, so she has been watching me there since the break. To avoid drama, I didn't reply and have stayed off social media for a few days. I wonder if this silence is least likely to fan the flames or if she might work herself up from being ignored. Maybe it's just a matter of damned if you do, and damned if you don't.  Paragraph header  (click to insert in post)

I would like to rekindle our relationship if possible. And for sure I wouldn't do it the same; doing the same thing and expecting different results is insanity.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

If I get the chance again, I would try hard as hell to listen, empathize, and validate as much as possible. I try to do that in all my relationships with others, but I'd realize how much better I need to get at it to sustain a relationship with S (if it's even possible). At the same time I would give her more free time and space for her to work her things out herself, probably not try to offer many solutions.

« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 11:54:50 AM by Learning_curve74 » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2020, 01:14:47 AM »

I want to re-connect so badly, to let her know I understand her wounds. But from what you say, o.r. that is likely to drive her further away from me.

its like any bad habit.

something has to click. you have to realize that its counter to your goals.

highly sensitive people specifically, need their space.

for the most part, women in general, need to know that they can pull away, and that their male partner can be cool and secure in that. that, in turn, brings feeling of security.

I had a session with my counselor yesterday and by the end it sounded like he was of the same opinion that there's nothing I can do except work on myself.

it can feel like a pat, and hopeless answer, but even in the short term, its usually the most critical thing.

when a relationship ends, the person that ends it often has doubts. what better way to reinforce that doubt than to do the opposite of what theyre expecting?

He thought as a childhood trauma survivor S might've simply been triggered and that once her emotional shutdown passed, my gentle reminder that "hey I know you need space, I won't crowd you, and I'll just be walking over here" might get her to re-engage.

it was worth a shot. often times though, just doing it is the best way to get the message across.

S has sent me a few messages saying it was not right of me to keep a particular item we got together and that she demands that I return it to her or pay her for it. It was in some pictures I posted on social media, so she has been watching me there since the break. To avoid drama, I didn't reply

my advice? let her have it.
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Learning_curve74
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« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2020, 04:31:01 AM »

highly sensitive people specifically, need their space.

for the most part, women in general, need to know that they can pull away, and that their male partner can be cool and secure in that. that, in turn, brings feeling of security.

when a relationship ends, the person that ends it often has doubts. what better way to reinforce that doubt than to do the opposite of what theyre expecting?

Thank you, o.r. for this insight. I couldn't see it at the time due to my panic and anxiety. I wish that I'd handled everything differently in hindsight.

In her breakup email, S actually told me she felt that I wanted somebody to live with 100% of the time but said she can't do that. I already knew she needed space, and I always told her that I understand she needs time with her friends or even just alone, and I told her this and meant it 100% because I feel the healthiest relationships are between interdependent people that only add richness to each other's lives and never subtract from it.

It was the breaking off of the relationship that caught me by surprise and made me panic. I had never experienced S push me away that strongly. It was a shock. I know now that the pandemic has been a source of extreme stress for her, and instead of being able to calm down she's been unable to cope. S always had very high need to "unwind" and calm with music, meditation, yoga, and physical exercise. I still beat myself up that the morning she broke up with me I had said "maybe, let's see if it's safe" to one of her travel requests; I had always been game for anything together until the pandemic made things so unsafe.

I feel she is lashing out at me in the latest communication. Making demands that I return an item. I haven't replied and wonder if simply not engaging is worse than giving in. I would rather just wait her out and hope she drops this line of argument unless this is likely to make things worse.
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« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2020, 12:22:02 AM »

In her breakup email, S actually told me she felt that I wanted somebody to live with 100% of the time but said she can't do that. I already knew she needed space, and I always told her that I understand she needs time with her friends or even just alone, and I told her this and meant it 100% because I feel the healthiest relationships are between interdependent people that only add richness to each other's lives and never subtract from it.

its a pretty blamey statement, an overstatement, and doesnt reflect where you think you were coming from, but it may still be a glimpse into her perception. between it all, it may be a (blamey) way of saying "you have needs i dont think i can meet".

I feel she is lashing out at me in the latest communication. Making demands that I return an item.

she is  Smiling (click to insert in post) . whats the end game though, the upside, in keeping it?
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« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2020, 03:15:58 AM »

In her breakup email, S actually told me she felt that I wanted somebody to live with 100% of the time but said she can't do that. I already knew she needed space, and I always told her that I understand she needs time with her friends or even just alone, and I told her this and meant it 100% because I feel the healthiest relationships are between interdependent people that only add richness to each other's lives and never subtract from it.

its a pretty blamey statement, an overstatement, and doesnt reflect where you think you were coming from, but it may still be a glimpse into her perception. between it all, it may be a (blamey) way of saying "you have needs i dont think i can meet".

I see that now, ironically this is one of the things my therapist talked about with me yesterday. I struggle with this because I was quite secure, safe, and happy during our time together. I enjoyed our shared experiences, conversations, sex, and never really felt lacking. One can never really tell what is going on in another person's head for sure, and while I had a couple warning signs in retrospect that she was having issues, I can't go back in time.


I feel she is lashing out at me in the latest communication. Making demands that I return an item. I haven't replied and wonder if simply not engaging is worse than giving in. I would rather just wait her out and hope she drops this line of argument unless this is likely to make things worse.

she is  Smiling (click to insert in post) . whats the end game though, the upside, in keeping it?

I didn't want to say directly because S is very intelligent and I wouldn't put it past her to find me here as unlikely as it might be. But at this point I'm a bit in despair of ever getting a second chance with her...

S arranged a few months ago for us to adopt a couple of pets from a breeder for free (she is very good at sweet talking some people). One pet lived at her house and the other pet lived at my house. Now she is very angrily demanding that I stop posting pictures of my pet on social media and is demanding that I return "her pet" or pay her for it. I was actually scared for my safety a bit because I've seen her blow up a grand total of once (though not at me) which was unpleasant, and I know she did some thing unpleasant to her ex-husband. I thought she might actually come over to confront me or steal it while I'm out.

I'm not interested in giving her my pet which I raised and love. And we got them for free, so I'm happy to repay her the purchase amount.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

Right now she sounds very angry and paranoid, so I've just ignored her by not replying, though I'm not sure if that's making things worse or just keeping them the same. I feel like she's really splitting me black at the moment so any "communication" may not be of much use. Maybe my silence is communication enough, though I worry silence is more hurtful than other communication.  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2020, 12:32:43 AM »

Excerpt
I struggle with this because I was quite secure, safe, and happy during our time together.

in my experience, it is very easy to feel that way with a partner thats all over you, so to speak, as our partners tend to be. i was never more confident while i was with my ex. i was never less confident than when she dumped me.

Excerpt
I'm not interested in giving her my pet

ah. i would imagine not.

Excerpt
Right now she sounds very angry and paranoid,

she does. my ex got into modes, usually when we "broke up" where shed make similar threats or demands. if you dont want to get back together, then short term id ignore it, lie low, not post on social media, and hope it goes away.

if you do...

Excerpt
I'm happy to repay her the purchase amount.

i would consider it. she may just be blowing off steam that will cease soon.

think of the karpman drama triangle.

its best to respond in a reasonable and mature way, one that forces your opponent to see the immaturity and unreasonableness of their position.

at the same time, you dont want to validate the invalid, just give into unreasonable demands that are more about blowing off steam.

did she set a price? you dont want to walk into a situation where she moves the goal posts.

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« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2020, 06:13:12 AM »

I struggle with this because I was quite secure, safe, and happy during our time together.

in my experience, it is very easy to feel that way with a partner thats all over you, so to speak, as our partners tend to be. i was never more confident while i was with my ex. i was never less confident than when she dumped me.

I experienced the love bombing and dramatic "I need you" declarations from F, my previous BPD(ex)gf, so I feel immunized to that sort of overboard thing now. While S was enthusiastic, it never felt overboard to me. I was actually the first to say "I love you" and she couldn't even say it back to me that day. Which was fine as I knew there were risks in expressing what I felt, but that's life.

One of the things that makes this difficult for me is that the ways she expressed her care and love for me were very similar to mine, and she often did so before I did (for example she was the first to give me gifts, she was the first to suggest going on vacation and she paid for the lodging, she would surprise me with thoughtul efforts like cooking dinner, etcetera), so I doubt it was a case of her mirroring me. I felt like our "love language" preferences were a pretty good match.

I've had my red flag radar up on high alert ever since I'd been with F who was textbook BPD. But a fat lot of good it did me with S.  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)  Other than S's anxiety, there was little I could see, but most people have a lot more anxiety than me so maybe I couldn't gauge it properly. I did feel that she was more sensitive than most, but I took that as understandable considering that she is a child abuse survivor.


I'm not interested in giving her my pet

ah. i would imagine not.


Right now she sounds very angry and paranoid,

she does. my ex got into modes, usually when we "broke up" where shed make similar threats or demands. if you dont want to get back together, then short term id ignore it, lie low, not post on social media, and hope it goes away.

if you do...

I'm happy to repay her the purchase amount.

i would consider it. she may just be blowing off steam that will cease soon.

think of the karpman drama triangle.

its best to respond in a reasonable and mature way, one that forces your opponent to see the immaturity and unreasonableness of their position.

at the same time, you dont want to validate the invalid, just give into unreasonable demands that are more about blowing off steam.

did she set a price? you dont want to walk into a situation where she moves the goal posts.

No she never set a price, and seeing as I wasn't interested in drama, I just ignored/gave her the silent treatment. I figured her making a fuss about the pet was due to Karpman drama triangle as you suggested. I left her a note that simply and kindly let her know I understood and respected her need for space, and if that for some reason in the future she desires, she knows how to find me. After that is when she got very angry and brought up this whole pet thing out of the blue.

I'm not entirely sure, but S may have felt guilty about how she dumped me, but tried to avoid feelings of shame by trying to make me the bad guy accusing me of stealing my own pet from her. Her move from being the persecutor to playing victim in the drama triangle?

And speaking of drama and moving goal posts... I recently found out that she got back together with her ex-bf. I had a suspicion of this having been cheated on in the past by F and a previous gf. I don't know the exact timeline, but I'm pretty sure she was talking with him/ex-bf while we were together and am even more sure he visited her very shortly after she broke up with me. She may very well been seeing him during the times when I gave her space to do her own thing, I don't know for sure. I never felt threatened at the time, but in hindsight I see it very well could be a possibility.

So right now I have zero inclination to give her my pet nor pay her any money as "compensation". I'm not interested in throwing away good money after bad money, so to speak.

I don't know if I'm on the right board anymore either because as of this moment I'm not terribly interested in trying to salvage a relationship with somebody I don't trust anymore. I don't take it personally, her unkind actions are hers alone and not any reflection on me.

At the same time, I don't know if this thing with her ex-bf is temporary insanity from pandemic stress. It seems very unlike her especially how fearful she's been about other people with the coronavirus pandemic going on,  but now I wonder what was true and what were lies. I have forgiven cheating before, but part of me now feels like that would be "settling", i.e. settling for less than what I really want which is somebody who I feel secure and safe with, who makes me feel loved and enriches my life. I've learned that when somebody shows me who they are through their actions, it behooves me to believe them.

Maybe there's something I'm missing or a viewpoint I'm not seeing. I'm open to hearing about what they may be.

o.r. thank you for your kind help and guidance. I appreciate the support. Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2020, 12:42:18 AM »

I experienced...

for the most part, we (as in all of us) tend to pursue similar relationships and types, but do a little better each time, so to speak.

that is, unless we determine there is something about the model of relationship we are gravitating toward that isnt working, and begin to gravitate toward a different model.

a red flag radar wont really achieve that. as a member here once said, you dont become a "good fruit picker" by learning to spot bad fruit. the other thing is, we mature some from relationship to relationship, as does our choice in partners, so any new partner is, by comparison, going to look better than the ex, when really, the underlying dynamics are largely the same.

besides. i came here after my ex and proceeded to get with two girls in a row where i knew i was out of my mind  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
Her move from being the persecutor to playing victim in the drama triangle?

her move from being pissed off at your note, and, likely, the relationship.

Excerpt
So right now I have zero inclination to give her my pet nor pay her any money as "compensation". I'm not interested in throwing away good money after bad money, so to speak.

its been a while now, right? with more context, this does seem more like momentary lashing out, and paying her is unlikely to seriously mend any bridges. id forgotten about it, but when id "break up" with my ex, she would make similar demands of payment or compensation. if she were still hitting you up about it, i might consider it, but otherwise, you were probably right to chock it up as something she said out of anger.

Excerpt
Maybe there's something I'm missing or a viewpoint I'm not seeing. I'm open to hearing about what they may be.

i admit, this would be a tough go at reconciliation, especially if shes in another relationship. there arent a lot of cards to be played, so to speak. youd primarily just have to wait for the relationship, in whatever form it is in, to play out, and the ball would pretty much be in her court to reach out.

having said that, you dont have to decide, or do anything, today.
she does. my ex got into modes, usually when we "broke up" where shed make similar threats or demands. if you dont want to get back together, then short term id ignore it, lie low, not post on social media, and hope it goes away.

if you do...

i would consider it. she may just be blowing off steam that will cease soon.

think of the karpman drama triangle.

its best to respond in a reasonable and mature way, one that forces your opponent to see the immaturity and unreasonableness of their position.

at the same time, you dont want to validate the invalid, just give into unreasonable demands that are more about blowing off steam.

did she set a price? you dont want to walk into a situation where she moves the goal posts.


No she never set a price, and seeing as I wasn't interested in drama, I just ignored/gave her the silent treatment. I figured her making a fuss about the pet was due to Karpman drama triangle as you suggested. I left her a note that simply and kindly let her know I understood and respected her need for space, and if that for some reason in the future she desires, she knows how to find me. After that is when she got very angry and brought up this whole pet thing out of the blue.

I'm not entirely sure, but S may have felt guilty about how she dumped me, but tried to avoid feelings of shame by trying to make me the bad guy accusing me of stealing my own pet from her. Her move from being the persecutor to playing victim in the drama triangle?

And speaking of drama and moving goal posts... I recently found out that she got back together with her ex-bf. I had a suspicion of this having been cheated on in the past by F and a previous gf. I don't know the exact timeline, but I'm pretty sure she was talking with him/ex-bf while we were together and am even more sure he visited her very shortly after she broke up with me. She may very well been seeing him during the times when I gave her space to do her own thing, I don't know for sure. I never felt threatened at the time, but in hindsight I see it very well could be a possibility.

So right now I have zero inclination to give her my pet nor pay her any money as "compensation". I'm not interested in throwing away good money after bad money, so to speak.

I don't know if I'm on the right board anymore either because as of this moment I'm not terribly interested in trying to salvage a relationship with somebody I don't trust anymore. I don't take it personally, her unkind actions are hers alone and not any reflection on me.

At the same time, I don't know if this thing with her ex-bf is temporary insanity from pandemic stress. It seems very unlike her especially how fearful she's been about other people with the coronavirus pandemic going on,  but now I wonder what was true and what were lies. I have forgiven cheating before, but part of me now feels like that would be "settling", i.e. settling for less than what I really want which is somebody who I feel secure and safe with, who makes me feel loved and enriches my life. I've learned that when somebody shows me who they are through their actions, it behooves me to believe them.

Maybe there's something I'm missing or a viewpoint I'm not seeing. I'm open to hearing about what they may be.

o.r. thank you for your kind help and guidance. I appreciate the support. Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
[/quote]
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« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2020, 02:26:36 AM »

for the most part, we (as in all of us) tend to pursue similar relationships and types, but do a little better each time, so to speak.

that is, unless we determine there is something about the model of relationship we are gravitating toward that isnt working, and begin to gravitate toward a different model.

a red flag radar wont really achieve that. as a member here once said, you dont become a "good fruit picker" by learning to spot bad fruit. the other thing is, we mature some from relationship to relationship, as does our choice in partners, so any new partner is, by comparison, going to look better than the ex, when really, the underlying dynamics are largely the same.

I agree with you that what you outline above is understandably the typical case. However I know for me this relationship was very different from my past relationships as I am a very different person having undergone a great deal of self discovery and growth. How I handle my own emotions and my interactions with people are radically different than five years ago. As a partner I know that I can only lend support and enrichen her life, and I am not interested in being another person's emotional caretaker, being empathetic and listening: yes, taking on her issues as my own: no. I understand in general what is within my control (myself and my own actions) and what is not (everybody else's stuff).

I always tell my friends everything is a choice and you're allowed to change your mind whenever you want. Therefore a relationship metaphor for me is when two independent people choose to walk a path of life together because they value each other and are on the same trajectory. In times where my partner is tired, she can lean on me, but I'm not strong enough to carry her full weight, and I expect the same in return. And sometimes one can realize that they've been heading in the wrong direction and decide that it no longer serves them to continue this path with the other person. But in my opinion a healthy person will see that they seem to be headed in a direction that will get them lost way before they actually get to that point and will be open enough to discuss this with their partner before reaching the point of no return where one needs to jump ship so to speak.

I suppose this is perhaps a roundabout way to say that in my previous relationships like the one with F (who was diagnosed BPD) was often characterized by her acting out and me adjusting my path in order to continue on with her. And in the end I was lost in a place that was very different from where I thought I should be headed.

In contrast from F and my other past partners, with S (most recent gf), we seemed generally to be amicably walking along the same path enjoying each other's company. She never acted out like my past partners, and so I was genuinely shocked when she decided to head off in the opposite direction suddenly without any prior discussion or argument. Obviously that is her choice and right, but I expected a healthy partner to raise the discussion of where we were heading earlier rather than suddenly jumping ship.

S told me she was a survivor of childhood sexual abuse, but I thought she had healed a lot and was handling life pretty well. Her level of anxiety didn't seem too much out of line compared to young adults now, i.e. way more than me but relatively normal. But I guess the evidence now shows she is still too wounded to maintain a healthy relationship.

In retrospect I guess this is a reminder that we can't really see directly into another person's mind. And not every one we meet is healthy enough to be able to pull their own weight in a healthy adult relationship even though they can seem to wing it for a little while? I don't know if I'm so confident in myself now that I missed recognizing that S was a highly sensitive person rather than relatively normal level of sensitive, if that makes sense...


i admit, this would be a tough go at reconciliation, especially if shes in another relationship. there arent a lot of cards to be played, so to speak. youd primarily just have to wait for the relationship, in whatever form it is in, to play out, and the ball would pretty much be in her court to reach out.

having said that, you dont have to decide, or do anything, today.
she does. my ex got into modes, usually when we "broke up" where shed make similar threats or demands. if you dont want to get back together, then short term id ignore it, lie low, not post on social media, and hope it goes away.

if you do...

I am not interested in doing the same thing again and expecting a different result. This is not to say that I wouldn't be open to trying with S again in the future (never say never), but I have very little confidence she will be different especially since she is back with her ex-bf (or is that ex-ex-bf, the guy before me anyhow), one that she seemed to have a long term dysfunctional relationship with (including prior breakups and attempts to reconcile). Although in retrospect I really have no idea what things she told me about him were true and what was exaggeration. I just know that there is something unhealthy there that keeps them both cycling back together it seems. Not my business though.

I have a pet peeve about some community members that like to say (especially on the detaching board) "they never change". I know people can change because I changed. It's when the pain of staying the same becomes greater than the fear and pain of changing that one gains true motivation to change. Right now I'm not holding out much hope that S will change enough to be a healthy partner, and it doesn't directly affect me because we're not together anymore. I hope she does heal because it's a shame that she is living a smaller less fulfilling life than she potentially could. And as a person that I love, I only wish her the best going forward.

Big shrug from me because this isn't where I thought I'd end up when I first started this thread.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2020, 02:40:05 AM by Learning_curve74 » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2020, 10:36:52 PM »

However I know for me this relationship was very different from my past relationships

mine were too. i think that has to do with my point re "we do a little better each time". i dont mean this as a dig or to hurt when i ask, you find yourself in a similar place, yes?

In contrast from F and my other past partners, with S (most recent gf), we seemed generally to be amicably walking along the same path enjoying each other's company. She never acted out like my past partners, and so I was genuinely shocked when she decided to head off in the opposite direction suddenly without any prior discussion or argument. Obviously that is her choice and right, but I expected a healthy partner to raise the discussion of where we were heading earlier rather than suddenly jumping ship.

one of the last things i heard from my ex was that she was falling in love with me all over again. wed had a lovely few days together free of fighting and agreed we were on a great trajectory.

love and relationships cannot necessarily count on a wounded or aggrieved partner pulling you aside and clearly communicating the issues in the relationship and offering solutions. so much that happens is far more subtle. we all have our...somewhere between needy and dysfunctional ways of communicating these things.

you both were communicating in ways, some of them louder, some more subtle. were you really on the same page?

Excerpt
In retrospect I guess this is a reminder that we can't really see directly into another person's mind. And not every one we meet is healthy enough to be able to pull their own weight in a healthy adult relationship even though they can seem to wing it for a little while? I don't know if I'm so confident in myself now that I missed recognizing that S was a highly sensitive person rather than relatively normal level of sensitive, if that makes sense..

i think you risk falling into the trap of seeing this as a relationship between one healthy partner, and one highly sensitive partner who couldnt pull their weight and wasnt healthy.

and i wouldnt be so candid with someone who had not been through it previously, and also grown as a result. you know bowens family systems theory as well as i do  Being cool (click to insert in post).

Excerpt
I am not interested in doing the same thing again and expecting a different result.

and thats fair.

i only mention these things because you sound somewhere between "im trying to figure out what went wrong in case" and "im moving on but trying to learn the lessons". it really applies either way.
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« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2020, 11:39:17 PM »

Hi Learning-curve 74,

I feel for you. I've been there before. I also have an anxious attachment style. I've loved women who have shut me out. It is awful. I too have had thoughts of killing myself. I know the obsessive thinking, the pain, the feeling that ending it all would be a relief because at least the pain would end.

I don't know what advice to give. My first thought was that you just need to give her space because she very clearly asked for that. Sometimes giving the person space sends the message that you can live without them and causes a little anxiety on their part, making it more likely for them to reach out lest they lose you. But neither of us know exactly what's going on in her mind. She did accuse you of "stalking" her. I don't at all believe you did so, but that gives you an indication of what she was feeling at the time.

I don't have any right to give you advice, but I will say this. I've been in very similar situations, and (a) I also wanted to reach out, so so badly, and (b) in my experience, respecting their request to give them space has almost always been more effective.

So tough to know for sure, though. I'm so sorry you're going through this. Your pain is real, but I know it won't last forever. You're so young, and things will absolutely get better. Happiness is in your future.
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